Penn State Football

[gigemaggs99]

3. "JOE PATERNO ENABLED A CHILD RAPIST"

Use your words better. I understand your need for emphasis to sell, but using the word enable makes it seem like Joe hand-picked the boys for Sandusky.

This rationale is just not sound.

Let's say my wife is an alcoholic, WHICH SHE IS NOT. I know she drinks and then gets violent. I don't get her help and I don't keep her from buy more booze. I am ENABLING her behavior. Am I buying her the drinks NO, am I throwing the AA cards away? NO....I am STILL enabling, all it simply means he Joe allowed it to continue. It never says ANYTHING about Joe hand-picking kids. That simple statement makes this report sound like it's written by a child.

Who in the right mind would THINK Joe was picking kids out for this guy? REALLY?

[psusnoop]

I think they want them (coaching staff) to stay quiet for legal reasons. This just came, people are going to sue.


EDIT: Time will tell how "absurd" this is. I'll be amazed if more doesn't come out of the woodworks. I HOPE PRAY more doesn't but it just doesn't seem like the University would jump to such a big idea as firing the President and head football coach on a whim. If they did, then the univeristy has those issues to deal with too.

I would agree, it seems like there is a "little" thing called due process or law...but for that many regents and trustess to get together and decided 100% it seems like they aren't telling us all the facts due to pending lawsuits. They are covering their butts.

You said there is almost no way the staff as a whole couldn't have any idea of this happening. That comment right there is sickening to me and one that is without merit.

Sure there may be more to come out from this, I sure hope not but there may but to throw such a broad blanket over the whole staff without knowing any more factual information is "absurd" as I put it.

[steelerfan]

Also, I stick by what I said, I'm done with PSU.

Congratulations to the Worldwide Leader in Hype (ESPN). You got your way, your story, and your man. You have destroyed a man and his legacy by creating a stir of speculation, assumptions, and half-truths. Journalism at it's finest. And the bovine-human herd that is the American Public, has fallen for every bit of your bullshit.

It's so good to live in America where everyone is assumed guilty until proven innocent. And by time they ate proven innocent, the damage is done. Fucking bullshit.

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[gigemaggs99]

psusnoop, I have no clue what your real name is. Yes mine is Gus, just seems like you want to single me out. I'm not going to argue or pick things apart with you.

I understand 100% your mentality now. I felt the exact same way when I was "inside the A&M bubble" in 1998. In time, and unfortuneately these things never seem to get better as more information comes out, I think there will be more facts that come out and it will be shown why the university made the descions they made.

There are still "lost people" here that think Bonfire should return, they say things like, oh just have them sign a waiver...serioulsy? to have people/humans working on such a fragile stack of LUMBER is crazy! It's really amazing nothing like the '98 incident didn't happen soon and more frequently.

To have this ex-coach still be with kids, working with them, bringing them on campus, to his home, to bowl games that involved the university and to just turn a blind eye? That too is crazy!

Let's be honest, football is a BIG deal. Joe Paterno and his staff should have said something. They should have done more. Just like student atheletes they are a representative of the school. He was fired as was the president b/c by keeping them on the payroll would say, "we don't know all the facts but we'll just take the risk and let the cookie crumble as it will." That isn't taking a stand.

[psuexv]

Another decent read. Something I completely missed but is pointed out here. People saying Joe didn't go to the authorities, Shultz was the head of the Penn State Police department, which Joe knew to be involved in the interview with McQueary and handling the case.

Could he have followed up more, not sure I agree 100% with this lawyers reasoning why he shouldn't have but it's a point of view.

http://thatlawyerdude.blogspot.com/2...terno-why.html

A Strong Defense of Joe Paterno: Why Paterno Was Morally & Ethically Right Not To Go Further in The Sandusky Sex Abuse Case

In the comments section of an article in an SI online blog post by Joe Posnanski, Columbia Univ. Adjunct Professor Scott Semer assails Joe Paterno for not taking greater actions in the Jerry Sandusky case (Link is to the actual Grand Jury Report. It is not for the squeamish.)

Semer rests his opinions as a lawyer and an Adjunct Professor of Transactional Law at Columbia Univ. in NYC. He takes what I believe is the majority opinion as to Coach Paterno's decisions which is that he did the least he could do to cover himself but owed a moral duty to do more.

I too am an attorney, a criminal defense lawyer, a former special prosecutor, and an adjunct professor of Trial Advocacy, and as to his judgment of Paterno I completely disagree with Professor Semer. I think Paterno did what was both morally and legally correct.

After contacting his chain of command superiors, he let them do their jobs. He knew there was a campus police force that investigates ( and prosecutes ) crimes on campus. He took whatever information he had to the head of his department. He took it to the person who is, for all intents and purposes, the police commissioner of a 256 person police force which according to the Campus website says: "(The University Police are) governed by a state statute that gives our officers the same authority as municipal police officers."

Paterno didn't just give his information to a superior, he turned it over to the highest ranking official in that police department. That man, PSU's VP of Business called in the ACTUAL WITNESS and spoke to him. In other words Paterno could see an investigation.

Suggesting Paterno should have then done more is both ridiculous and dangerous. Paterno should not have approached Sandusky,for fear he tip him off to the investigation; he should not have called University police after nothing happened because 1. A police department has a right to set its policing priorities. The Courts have consistently held that: it is a "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981).
2. Once he reported the incident (and not having any information as to the progress of any investigation or the results thereof) Paterno had no other action he could reasonably take. If he pressed further or went public he risked opening himself and the University up to a law suit from Sandusky for libel , and that is assuming Paterno thought the grad assistant was both reliable and accurate. By that person's own admission he was distraught. He would be accused of trying to eliminate a potential competitor for his job. He would also call into question the safety of the campus and without any proof of his own on the allegations of another. Pattern is not a witness and arguably isn't even an "outcry witness." ( an outcry witness is one who verifies that another witness was so distraught that what they are saying must be true. To be an outcry witness the original witness must make his statement to you first and within a few minutes top hours after witnessing the incident. More than a couple of hours usually spoils the outcry's reliability. It gives the maker too much time to make up the testimony)
3. Assuming Paterno did go to the Chief of Police for the Penn State police department, the person under Gary Schultz, would that not be an act of insubordination? What if he were wrong? He would lose a long time friend and PSU family member. He would hurt alums, recruits and his teams. His fellow coaches could not trust him, all of this without being an actual witness to anything. Taking one man's word against anothers.

Noone wants to see kids hurt, and I believe Coach Paterno heads that list. People suggesting he needed to do more either don't understand the law of criminal investigation, or have a different ax to grind ( like the head of the PA State Police who is grand standing in saying people have a greater responsibility than to report crime to the local Authority. He would be the first guy to defend a civil rights suit against his agency, (brought by a crime victim claiming that the failure to arrest caused her injuries) by invoking the Warren case.)

Paterno handled this exactly as he should have and to suggest otherwise is to use 20/20 hindsight to judge what was a fluid real time situation. I guess the path is always clear for the Monday Morning Quarterback.

[psuexv]

Let's be honest, football is a BIG deal. Joe Paterno and his staff should have said something. They should have done more. Just like student atheletes they are a representative of the school. He was fired as was the president b/c by keeping them on the payroll would say, "we don't know all the facts but we'll just take the risk and let the cookie crumble as it will." That isn't taking a stand.

By potentially firing a man without knowing all the facts of his involvement, that's taking a stand. If they didn't know all of the facts they should have suspended him until they did know all of the facts or had a better handle on the facts.

[Oneback]

I will say that it's quite possible that most of the coaching staff knew nothing of the incidents, they may have heard something, but I can fully support the notion the didn't know. However, I cannot fathom Joe Pa not finding out via school authorities or law enforcement when the first investigations started.

Let's take a look at Texas' own closet and the case of Cleve Bryant, once the red flags were raised Mack Brown was alerted and within 6 months Cleve was fired and the person that raised the sexual harassment case was paid $400,000 by the University of Texas. It took 6 months in this case from start to finish once the allegations were raised.

In the case of Sandusky, there we're multiple documented incidents from 1998 (possibly earlier) until 2009 and to think Joe Pa knew nothing for 4 years after the first reported incident is absurd. I know news travels faster now, but let's not confuse communication in 1998 with Phillippides running from Marathon to Sparta to ask for help against the Persian Army.

PSU guys, I am pretty torn about this as well...I've learned a lot from Sandusky via video and books and have always held him in high regard as a great coach and this pretty much throws that thought out the window. As much as I hate to agree with an Aggie (), this isn't about football and while I can certainly understand how it feels all in the same to those that bleed PSU blue in the end it sounds like to this outsider that a group of men got together and decided to protect the brand more-so than to protect the individuals that have really been hurt by the indiscretions of a troubled person.

In all honesty, I know why they did it as there are examples of others doing the same in order to protect their brand/business. However, what really makes me sick is that those individuals unlike those in the business world don't stand up in front of 100 young men and preach about discipline, accountability and moral values and while it wouldn't make it any better I'm sure all of this would blow over a lot quicker if they just came out and said that they we're trying to protect the brand and thought they had handled the situation so that then the light can then shine directly in the face of Sandusky who in this case I would fully support the Islamic tradition of an eye for an eye.

[gigemaggs99]

I also find it strange that there was a local high school teacher here in Bryan a couple of years back that it was "suggested" that he had sex with a minor. He was hunted down and put behind bars. If he came up innocent oh well that's how it works.

How in the WORLD is this Sandusky guy able to walk around be at his house wearing PENN St clothing? Am I on drugs, maybe I am, but ESPN is saying he's still not in jail. How is that possible?

Please someone tell me he's behind bars.

By the way, the Bryan ISD teacher was found guilty and is in prison. He was a baseball coach.

[psuexv]

I agree OB. It isn't about football, but that is all anyone is talking about in the media and trickling down to the masses. Not just sports shows, all major outlets are keyed in on Paterno. The frenzy made it about football and the BOT was forced to act to "protect their image". They felt forced to act due to PR and show that they needed to make a stand. So they fired Joe Paterno since he is all anyone is talking about. Isn't this how this whole mess started, by protecting an image, aren't they making the safe mistakes. How about "We are truly sorry for these allegations and events that took place, some potentially on our campus. We are going to deploy all resources that are necessary to assist with the legal matters to bring light to these terrible allegations and that any responsible parties be held accountable. At this time we are suspending Joe Paterno, Mike McQuery, Tim Curley and Graham Spanier until further developments are brought to our attention. We have set up a hotline and are providing resources to any victims."

Where's the Second Mile in all of these reports and media stories? Yes some of it happened on campus at PSU, but these were kids that the Second Mile allowed him to be in contact with. And after, according to the Grand Jury they were alerted to the incident in 2002. You say you can't believe that Joe wasn't told in '98, yet I see nobody calling BS that the Second Mile wasn't alerted in '98 either.

I want everyone to burn that was involved, including Joe if it comes to that. But it is hard to sit back and see that SO many other people could have been involved and the focus is on Joe.

[psuexv]

I also find it strange that there was a local high school teacher here in Bryan a couple of years back that it was "suggested" that he had sex with a minor. He was hunted down and put behind bars. If he came up innocent oh well that's how it works.

How in the WORLD is this Sandusky guy able to walk around be at his house wearing PENN St clothing? Am I on drugs, maybe I am, but ESPN is saying he's still not in jail. How is that possible?

Please someone tell me he's behind bars.

By the way, the Bryan ISD teacher was found guilty and is in prison. He was a baseball coach.

Gig, this is what we are saying and frustrates us. Nobody seems to care about Sandusky and he is criminal number one. Everyone is focusing on Joe, even though he was removed from it so to speak and his only possible crime is he didn't follow up to see if anything was done.

[ram29jackson]

I'm confused. Maybe we all see things differently.

Children were molested. A 10 year old boy was raped.

All under Joe's watch. All he did was report it to his boss.

How are the admin's taking the easy way out?

I'm watching the news and people are comparing this to a lot of different things (Catholic church, boy scout leaders, etc...) ....my wife is a teacher here in Bryan with the public schools. Bryans ISD. IF she sees what she even remotely thinks could be abuse she is to contact her boss AND CPS, which also involves the police.

IF she fails to do this and then later is fired, how would the admins being taking the easy way out?

Maybe it's a mistake for engaging you in conversation, but I just fail to see your point of view.

If you think they did the easy thing? What sir would be the better course of action?

its all conjecture and hearsay as far as Paterno is concerned..the board said they knew nothing as far as facts and still had to look at it..yet still, they just wash their hands of it and fire Paterno with nothing trully pinpointing him in anything...people below and above Paterno may have orchestrated something,but axing Joe, proved and solved nothing

[steelerfan]

Gig, this is what we are saying and frustrates us. Nobody seems to care about Sandusky and he is criminal number one. Everyone is focusing on Joe, even though he was removed from it so to speak and his only possible crime is he didn't follow up to see if anything was done.

Yep. While the world is hunting/harrassing/ruining Coach Paterno, Sandusky may well be raping more boys. Yet, all we care about is the victims.

So who at ESPN gets fired if out comes out that Sandusky raped someone last night?

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[Oneback]

I agree OB. It isn't about football, but that is all anyone is talking about in the media and trickling down to the masses. Not just sports shows, all major outlets are keyed in on Paterno. The frenzy made it about football and the BOT was forced to act to "protect their image". They felt forced to act due to PR and show that they needed to make a stand. So they fired Joe Paterno since he is all anyone is talking about. Isn't this how this whole mess started, by protecting an image, aren't they making the safe mistakes. How about "We are truly sorry for these allegations and events that took place, some potentially on our campus. We are going to deploy all resources that are necessary to assist with the legal matters to bring light to these terrible allegations and that any responsible parties be held accountable. At this time we are suspending Joe Paterno, Mike McQuery, Tim Curley and Graham Spanier until further developments are brought to our attention. We have set up a hotline and are providing resources to any victims."

That's all well and good to smooth over what is happening in the here and now, which in reality is all they have control over, however the question would then be raised as to why these steps weren't taken back in 1998. Let's be honest, if they would have suspended Sandusky pending a further investigation back in 1998 all of this would be old news and probably wouldn't have been as big of a story as it is now. It's blown up to the proportions we see now because it's 13 years after-the-fact.

Where's the Second Mile in all of these reports and media stories? Yes some of it happened on campus at PSU, but these were kids that the Second Mile allowed him to be in contact with. And after, according to the Grand Jury they were alerted to the incident in 2002. You say you can't believe that Joe wasn't told in '98, yet I see nobody calling BS that the Second Mile wasn't alerted in '98 either.

I've heard allegations about Second Mile as well:

“I hear a rumor that there will be a shocking development from the Second Miles Foundation … That Jerry Sandusky and Second Mile were pimping out young boys to rich donors.” - Mark Madden

It's also been thrown out that Second Mile was a safe haven for Sandusky and other like minded individuals, while not everyone affiliated wih Second Mile is being thrown under the bus there are rumors it was a front for pedophiles.

I want everyone to burn that was involved, including Joe if it comes to that. But it is hard to sit back and see that SO many other people could have been involved and the focus is on Joe.

I agree, however the focus is on Joe because some of the incidents happened on campus and Joe is the face of Penn State to most outsiders and is being used as a stand-in for the University. It also doesn't help that he and Sandusky were close, not to implicate Joe in any wrong doing but the media/public latches on to that sort-of-thing.

[psusnoop]

Gus my name is Jeremy sorry thought u knew.

I'm singling out your comment that there was and is no way that the staff didnt know about these crimes via hear say simple because they worked together.

That is the comment that I'm talking about, and find crazy to make such an assumption.

[psusnoop]

Gig, this is what we are saying and frustrates us. Nobody seems to care about Sandusky and he is criminal number one. Everyone is focusing on Joe, even though he was removed from it so to speak and his only possible crime is he didn't follow up to see if anything was done.

God forbid they focus on Sandusky or both McQuearys but I guess those names don't drive ratings like a Paterno.

[ram29jackson]

if this puts penn State football in the dumper.. I'll be paying a little more attention to Michigan games next year LOL


alright, enough screwing around- its time to send a team of investigators to Duke and uncover the Real Mike Krzyzewski !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! after all, he was a friend of Bobby Knights..........and thats another thing, last night watching that stuff on the news, it was like a weird-er version of the whole Bobby Knight thing...and of course, Knight was an angry, abusive, control freak who needed to be axed IMO......but for the most part, college kids dont riot because they believe in anything..they just riot because " hey, we're in college, lets go riot !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gigemaggs99]

The board said they knew nothing. I take that with a grain of salt. Pres Clinton said he didn't have sexual relations, people say shit all the time to the media. They all have lawyers that advise them what to and not to say.

I will say it's nice to hear the interm guy say, "I was advised NOT to comment on this." That doesn't mean he knows or doesn't know anything, it means legally they want him quiet.

Again Penn St is doing disaster recovery, if the interm goes on live t.v. the day after Joe PA is fired and outright says, "Hell yeah I knew" that would make this thing blow up like a nuclear bomb. Saying he has no comment just keeps everyone asking more, but also keeps some sort of "order."

If Joe was able to coach this weekend, there is NO WAY the questions would stop. What would they talk about after the Neb game, in the post game? The pass rush? HELL NO.

It's just hard to stomach, it's sucks! Joe Paterno seems like a good honest guy. It sucks that over a long time he's been built up as a "family guy" "Penn St-family guy", yet this can happen and it seems like on one hand you have this awesome stand out guy that only does the BEST in all aspects of life and then when something horrible happens and he learns about it, he does tell a superior/campus cop and then later says he wishes he would have done more.

This feels a lot like the Tiger Woods scandal.

I agree with a reporter that came on the Jim Rome radio show, if Tiger Woods would have come out and talked for hours in a press conference and said, "Ok look, I'm going to sit here ALL DAMN day and answer every question in the book, then when it's over IT'S OVER." But instead, he says things like this is a private matter, I'm working with my wife, please leave her out of it...blah blah blah....

Well Penn State could have done the same on Tuesday, but they cancelled the press conference. The problem in the comparision is, Joe Paterno isn't "PENN STATE" even though he's pretty damn close. There is an institution, not just a football coach. Tiger Woods did this with adults, the Penn State's issue it with minors.

I hear these people/protestors go on the t.v. and say, Joe Pa was randomly fired, look at all the money he gave to the university. I guess people are emotional and they are said their coach is gone, but giving 1 penny or 10 million for a library doesn't excuse the fact that a coach of 30+ plus years on his staff, and I would assume after that long would be considered a friend, did this and he just looks the otherway.

There has to be some sort of ramification for Joe. He picks his staff, they represent the university. The university went after Joe b/c he put those people in place to work with and represent the university. So did the President, he backed Joe. The trustess are saying, LOOK if ya'll back this, then you're fired. Makes sense to me. Is it fair, NO Is life fair? NO
Does it seem like Joe is getting the shaft, sort of. But He should have know what was going on, he should have done more. He's the head coach, he's their boss. They report to him.

I understand why he was fired. Just sucks, it would have been cool to see him continue to break records from the football side of it. But this is way WAY beyond football right now.

[ram29jackson]

this just in----

John Wooden was addicted to Maple bar donuts, sometimes eating 2 at a time.......the LA police force knew this and said nothing....its true......

[gigemaggs99]

I agree with a lot said here. It felt like ESPN was some new york house wives or MTV reality show last night. It felt like they just kept going on and on about the same stuff. I thought at some point....aren't they supposed to report sports?

I actually turned off NCAA 12 to see the end of the football game, then found it all blowing up and oh by the way the football game was moved to ESPNU tune in there to watch sports.

Then for them to keep going to the reporters in the riot, asking them, what do you see what do you see....it's a bunch of drunk kids or people standing around holding cell phones...what does this have to do with SPORTS?

comparing this Bobby Knight is a stretch. Like I said with the comparision to Tiger Woods, he did this with adults. When the Penn St story first broke I was asking my wife, why in the HELL can't a full grown man-football player keep some old coach off his ass in the showers????? Then the more I learned that it was not a player, not an adult, but a 10 year old boy! He had no chance.

He wasn't a player on Bobby Knights team that could quit playing, he wasn't an adult. Taking advantage of children and abusing your power is....I have no adjective. In the report where he promises kids they can be walk-ons at Penn State? That right there tells you of the abuse of power.

I don't know, this is just some sicko shit. I'm going to try and turn NCAA 12 back on and have "fun". This story is all over the news and it's all they are talking about on sports radio. It will be nice when justice is served and we can move on.

I'm not trying to pick fights with anyone here. I respect everyone's opinions and thoughts. I appreciate ya'll (Staff) here at TGT for giving us a forum to talk this stuff out. Sometimes people like me, we have to talk and talk and talk to help with the healing process. It's all just so strange to me.

Again, thanks to all for listening and keeping it civil. psusnoop, psuexv, ramjackson, steelerfan, and all those I failed to mention. Thanks for you perspectives and thoughts.

Oneback: FU....just kidding! I liked your "Aggie" jab. I appreciate you taking my ideas with a grain of salt. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm not saying I'm wrong. I just need to talk to someone about this craziness. Lord knows I can't talk to my 3-year or 4-month old about it. Thank you sir, and Gig 'Em.

Hopefully the truth will come out soon and we can all move on to better things like good college football games.

I for one will be cheering for Penn St this weekend vs Neb.

[gigemaggs99]

ok, one last thing so I don't have to puke. I agree the news media makes things much worse than they need to. They just replayed the clip at Joe Pa's house last night, and the reporter asks, "What's this day been like for you?"

LOLLOLOLOLOLOOL

The next time someone witnesses a nuclear explosion or some sort of HUGE melt down, they should ask, "so did you see anything out of the oridinary?"

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOOL