So, today's debate seems to be whether the statue should stay up or come down. That's one tough call. The library name seems to be safe though.
So, today's debate seems to be whether the statue should stay up or come down. That's one tough call. The library name seems to be safe though.
This is actually a really good piece by someone whom seems to have no ties to Penn State. Actually raises a lot of questions regarding the report. Probably 2 of the biggest things are not only did Freeh not interview McQueary, he never talked to Paterno, Curley, Shultz or Spanier. And I didn't really pick up on this but the he points out that Freeh is assuming that "Coach" in the emails back in 1998 are referring to Paterno when Sandusky was still a coach at that point and very likely could have meant him and he was interested in what the findings were.
I'm not dismissing any blame here, just thought this was a good read by a non-Penn Stater and raises some very good questions about the report itself.
http://www.johnziegler.com/editorial...?editorial=219
I read that this morning too, interesting.Originally Posted by psuexv
Yeah this is where the decision makers have to have the balls to stand up for a man who dedicated his life to teaching and influencing men to go on to be better humans and individuals who would raise families and contribute greatly to society.. Yeah it was sick and disgusting what Sandusky did, as a father myself I would do the same thing the father in texas did, but Paterno did so much more than just this black cloud hanging over him... This sad thing is there will never be another man to dedicate his life to one university like this man did, we dont see people like him in society anymore... I believe it should stand also for his family.. To be able to remember their father for the awesome person he was and what he stood for... How terrible would it be for your father to die and have to hear people talk terrible about him and associate him with what someone else has done...
I agree with this 100%, I think that's why I said I don't really know if the death penalty is the best "fix". It does bother me that in "real life" if you break the law YOU get punished, not your kids or someone else.
In "football life" i.e. USC they break the rules and the kids that were in jr high or high school are the ones that pay.
Reggie Bush was told to give his Heisman back. They make 2, one goes to the university for their trophy case, the other goes to the player. Once Reggie "said" he was going to give it back USC returned theirs. "Somehow" that day Reggie's was "misplaced" and has never been found.....yet the players (jr. high and high school at the time) now the current players are the ones paying for his, the universities and coaches mistakes. Makes no sense to me.
Same with SMU, Eric Dickerson, Craig James, other coaches, players they didn't really get hurt in the 20 year aftermath of the death penalty. Yeah they may have won the national title if allowed to keep going in their ways, but it's the players that came afterward that payed the price.
So thinking on it more, no the death penalty for Penn St would not fix the issue. It would not punish the people responsible, would it snap the football environment as a whole back to reality, HELL YES but it would also bring the program to it's knees and I don't like that and I think the NCAA doesn't like that idea either, this is why they have eluded to never giving that penalty out after they say what it really did to SMU. The players, coaches and administration that broke the rules at SMU have not paid nearly as bad a price as the University as a whole. I don't think this would be fair to Penn St, USC, etc...they need a better system. One where the punishment fits the crime.
I say leave the statue of Joe. Bad things happen to good people, this doesn't tarnish their entire body of life's work. Is this one a black eye for Joe, heck yes, but it doesn't define his life, if you ask me.
I think people react to the here and now. They get all upset and then later, years later they simmer down and look at the body of work over a lifetime, they don't pick it apart. Those that do always will, but I think they are the minority.
Will Sandusky ever be looked at the same, not in my eyes, he's a predator, can't change that title.
I'm just saying in the long run, I think Joe Paterno will still be mentioned along w/ the greats of college football, he may have an astrix next to his name in fine print but it shouldn't be the defining issue.
NOTE: this is just an example I'm not trying to stir things up. Look at Bill Clinton for example, my parents are discussed with him, and the Lewinsky issue, they are, were and still all fired up about it. Is it a black eye for Pres Clinton, yes. Does it define his entire years of service, not to me.
Again my parents for example...they are older of course and they are really fond of Pres Kennedy. However, I don't bring it up to them, but now that things are starting to come out and of course there wasn't the internet and mass media back then, I would hazard to guess, just from what I've heard that JFK did as much is not far more than Pres Clinton, but the older generations don't hang JFK out to dry like they do Clinton. Perhaps the issue that happened to Clinton is still too fresh.
Similar to Joe Paterno, all we here about him NOW is this bad stuff. I'm suggesting, 30-40 years from now it will be his football career they discuss, not this Sandusky road bump in his life's career.
I try and keep my "fan side" of things in perspective when it comes to college sports but sometimes it's hard when you see the "dark side" money side of things come into play. Take A&M for example when I was in high school early 90s (95 grad) A&M was slowly getting better each year...then all of a sudden they got caught paying players and lost t.v. coverage for 1 year. They year (1994) they went undefeated (10-0-1)but couldn't be in a bowl. Then it slowly has gotten worse since then. So 1 year of no tv and no bowl games makes a HUGE difference. The other issue is even though they weren't in a bowl they also couldn't share in the conference revenues gained by t.u. or other SWC teams making a bowl. They paid for it later down the line....money matters.
When I was in school at A&M one of my neighbors was a player that was paid in the year they got caught. He went on to play for the Colts, but was later cut due to injury or not fitting w/ the team, I'm not sure. I know he had a big poster in his living room of him on the colts field in a colts uni....anyways...I asked him what it was really all about. He said they used to get paid all the time for doing things. They were actually working so it wasn't like they were just getting money, but he said it was of course against the rules, but when they were offered cash they would take it. They were always told not to take checks b/c then there was a paper trail. Well a coach needed help moving a hot tub. So a couple of the players went to his house to lift the heavy stuff and they were paid, in checks. They were all told not to cash the checks but someone did.
Then later a new treasure came in, wanted to get the books in order and started noticing that 1 check had been cashed but the other check numbers where missing. So they looked into it more and found out the mistake, so A&M turned it over to the NCAA and they were punished.
This is again however a problem I have with the punishment not fitting the crime. This guy, I'm wracking my brain to remember his name was back at A&M after being cut from the Colts and he was finishing his degree through a scholarship...so he didn't really miss out on anything. It was the football program and the later players that missed out. I have no idea what the proper punishment "should be" I'm just saying it doesn't seem like they are punishing the correct people.
Maybe in big-time sports where big-time money is involved people cheat to get ahead. Maybe that's the sad truth behind it. My Dad is a tenure professor at Texas Tech, he's been there since 1990, and he laughs when he sees coaches like Mike Leach or Bobby Knight come a long and make SO MUCH money to work at the same place he does...realistically supposed to be teaching kids yet making MILLIONS per year he just shakes his head and laughs.
I find it "interesting" that coaches just "happen" to leave what looks like a really good job, then later to find out they left just in time. Take Pete Carroll from USC, Urban Meyer from Florida, Lou Holtz from Notre Dame, the list goes on and on...it just seems fishy that they leave and then the university they left gets hammered by the NCAA or their former university just can't seem to WIN like it could before.
Sorry to get off on a tangent that isn't Penn St and what they are going through. I just hope ALL the facts come out so we can all see it plain as day, make up our minds and in the end, move on.
Penn St as a football program will move on. Will it maybe take a hit for a few years, maybe...but the true fans like the psusnoop, psuexv, steelerfan, etc.. they will still cheer for THEIR team as they should.
but the true fans like the psusnoop, psuexv, steelerfan, etc.. they will still cheer for THEIR team as they should.Ive had the same avatar for 2 years ...and Steelerfan jumped ship
The NCAA better keep their mouths shut and their hands out of it. They arent necassary with all the other legal agencies doing what they do. Thats quite enough.
Yep. I think Steelerfan chose Notre Dame of all schools
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The dude abides.
Jumping in this momentarily, I was listening to Fox Sports last night at work (our AM station carries Fox Sports), and another reason they are against the death penalty being used on Penn State, in addition to the many already mentioned in here, is for these victims, by now, I'm sure they want this all to end, the nonstop media and everything and just get on with their lives. If you were one of these victims, would you want to be responsible, in whatever capacity or margin, for an entire football team being slaughtered by the NCAA? Even if they aren't actually legitimately responsible, in whatever capacity, they'll sure as hell feel responsible for it happening.
It's not like Sandusky molesting young boys in the shower gave Penn State a recruiting advantage. So that aspect of anything the NCAA could do is out. Lack of institutional control, yes, you can make the case for that. But how does killing a football team with the death penalty, for one year, five years, however many years, fix anything? You're punishing a hundred current football players, thousands upon thousands of fans, and even the victims themselves by killing the team as a result of what happened to them, for the actions of one man, and the inaction of a handful other men. They had Bobby Bowden on the show last night and even he said the same thing, this isn't an NCAA matter, it's a criminal matter and it should be handled through the criminal courts.
Any kind of athletic penalties should not happen.
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The dude abides.
That certainly is plausible although if it is in fact true. (We will of course NEVER know) However assuming arguendo it where true, WTF were these higher ups doing discussing with Sandusky an ongoing investigation into whether Sandusky was in fact a sexual predator? We will never know but if push comes to shove I suspect the parties involved in the e-mails will say they were referring to Paterno b/c it looks "less bad" than if they were talking to Sandusky about the ongoing investigation.
Moreover, you still have the 01 incident where we know Paterno was informed by an eye witness of a sexual assault.
You guys have presented one side of the "no death penalty" argument (i.e. it harms "innocent" people). Although, I can make an argument that NOONE in the program is 100% innocent I'll assume for the sake of argument that is largely true.
The other side in support of NCAA punishment is it serves as notice and a deterant to other schools. IF you cover up something this heinous you WILL be caught and you WILL be PUNISHED and the punishment for the cover up is going to be MUCH MUCH MUCH worse than had you reported/stopped the issue a.s.a.p.
I guess I disagree that NOTHING should happen to the football team. By no means do I think the death penalty is warranted or anything even remotely that severe. Also, I would NOT argue that any NCAA sanctions/penalties would be for the purpose of helping the victims or anything that noble (the court rulings will hopefully serve that purpose).
I just think that the culture of protecting the football program is the reason all of this went on. Without pointing the blame at any one person, this was a systematic failure that happened because the people in power believed that protecting the football program & a great coach's legacy was more important than stepping forward & doing the right thing. Plain and simple. To me, there must be some kind of penalty. While I do not know what that punishment should be, I believe something must be done. The suggestion that perhaps a chunk of athletic department revenue be directed towards a charity for a cpl years seems like an interesting possibility... Just my opinion.
I never had a Penn State avatar, numbnuts.
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that wasnt my pointless point to begin with...Mr. sleepy balls
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Alright, alright, lets get things back on track here.
LMAO!
Mr. Sleepy Balls.
That shit is funny!
So apparently Louis Freeh who investigated the PSU "cover up" is involved in an investigated cover-up when he was head of the FBIHow am I supposed to find this guy credible now.
http://www.businessinsider.com/penn-...m_campaign=law
Fair points Kwizzy and I completely understand that it appears this whole thing happened because of the football program. However I don't think it revolved solely around the football program. With Spanier being involved, I would also suggest it was about protecting the image of the University itself. Obviously this is purely speculation on my part, but having been around a Spanier run university since he's been here, he loved the squeaky clean image. He'd pretty much publicly stated how he hated the "party" image of the school and has put a number of things into place to try and minimize that.
Oh, I'm sure that protecting the image of the entire University was the case, not simply the football team. However I think that when you hear of the culture that JoePa worked for these people only in title & that he was the defacto King of the University, it brings the football team to the foreground. It's really a tough and horrible situation, most especially for the kids that were hurt, but also for all of the innocent & wonderful people associated with Penn St. But like in a lot of cases, honest & decent people will and should end up paying for the sins of others.
"honest & decent people....should end up paying for the sins of others."
WTF? You really feel that way?
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