Community Feedback Discussion

[Roy38]

That is the purpose, correct.



A number of the members of the Game Changers programs own and maintain their own community websites. Obviously the intention of people in the program having these websites and forums is to help them collect information and feedback about the games with the hopes that passing that information along can result in improvements to the products.



Since many of the community event attendees were required to take time off from their employment--sometimes without having vacation time or paid time off to use to offset the time away--expenses were compensated. All community event attendees--not just those in the Game Changers program--also received a free copy of the game prior to retail release.

I have a question for cdj, JBHuskers, and gschwendt:

Do to your participation in all or part of the Game Changers program and Community Day events, do you feel like your time spent was worthwhile? Do you feel that you helped shape NCAA '12 through design and development or did most of your suggestions fall on deaf ears?

[JeffHCross]

I have a question for cdj, JBHuskers, and gschwendt:

No love.

[JBHuskers]

No love.

You trying to say you deserve some?

[Roy38]

No love.

Is there a reason my questions aren't being answered? I don't understand your response.

[Paakaa10]

I have a question for cdj, JBHuskers, and gschwendt:

Do to your participation in all or part of the Game Changers program and Community Day events, do you feel like your time spent was worthwhile? Do you feel that you helped shape NCAA '12 through design and development or did most of your suggestions fall on deaf ears?

You didn't address this to me directly--and I'm not going to speak for cdj, JB, or gschwendt--but as a member of the Game Changers and a Community Event attendee, I feel like I can speak to what you ask here on a personal level.

I know from my experience that some suggestions I made were taken into consideration, and some specific things actually were addressed from what I saw at the events and what ended up in the final game. Did everything I suggest receive full consideration from the team? Probably not, nor would I have expected that to be the case. In total, I spent about nine days in the studio during the development cycle of NCAA Football 12; three days in January, three days in April, and three days in May. I tried to make the most of my time, but that's a very small amount of time to actually be there and be able to provide face-to-face feedback.

As a result of my involvement, I got to be on a direct email basis--as did many of the other attendees--with members of the development team. As things have come up, I've sent emails to the team. Some have spawned email threads of multiple messages in conversation, some haven't. Again, I don't expect every email I send to turn into a full discussion.

I know some people would like to call bullshit on what I'm about to say, but for people in the Game Changers program and Community Event attendees who want to make their voice heard, it takes a considerable amount of time and effort invested. I've spent more days playing the game and collecting feedback from forums and completely ignoring my wife than I would like to admit. If I did not feel like my voice was being heard, I would not be involved in these programs.

I don't think anybody--and again, I can only speak for myself--involved in the Game Changers or Community Events takes any pleasure in seeing what has happened to NCAA Football 12 in the time since its retail release. I hate seeing all of the posts about people having issues in the game, and I don't think anybody wanted this to be the end result. But personally, I don't have the time or inclination to point fingers or speculate about where blame should be cast. All I know is to keep playing the game and watching the forums and sending my feedback where it's supposed to go. I can't write any programming code, so I can't do very much to help directly.

[JeffHCross]

Is there a reason my questions aren't being answered? I don't understand your response.

My response was 'cause you didn't include me in the question

then show a behind the scenes show on ESPNU about scrambling to get the game back under control and then successfullying doing so, that would be kinda cool.

Maybe that's asking for too much drama, but it would be nice to see.

An ESPNU can't exactly happen at the drop of the hat ... maybe if it had been a weekly show that was still on ... I agree it would be nice. Very little chance of it happening though.

[Roy38]

You didn't address this to me directly--and I'm not going to speak for cdj, JB, or gschwendt--but as a member of the Game Changers and a Community Event attendee, I feel like I can speak to what you ask here on a personal level.

I know from my experience that some suggestions I made were taken into consideration, and some specific things actually were addressed from what I saw at the events and what ended up in the final game. Did everything I suggest receive full consideration from the team? Probably not, nor would I have expected that to be the case. In total, I spent about nine days in the studio during the development cycle of NCAA Football 12; three days in January, three days in April, and three days in May. I tried to make the most of my time, but that's a very small amount of time to actually be there and be able to provide face-to-face feedback.

As a result of my involvement, I got to be on a direct email basis--as did many of the other attendees--with members of the development team. As things have come up, I've sent emails to the team. Some have spawned email threads of multiple messages in conversation, some haven't. Again, I don't expect every email I send to turn into a full discussion.

I know some people would like to call bullshit on what I'm about to say, but for people in the Game Changers program and Community Event attendees who want to make their voice heard, it takes a considerable amount of time and effort invested. I've spent more days playing the game and collecting feedback from forums and completely ignoring my wife than I would like to admit. If I did not feel like my voice was being heard, I would not be involved in these programs.

I don't think anybody--and again, I can only speak for myself--involved in the Game Changers or Community Events takes any pleasure in seeing what has happened to NCAA Football 12 in the time since its retail release. I hate seeing all of the posts about people having issues in the game, and I don't think anybody wanted this to be the end result. But personally, I don't have the time or inclination to point fingers or speculate about where blame should be cast. All I know is to keep playing the game and watching the forums and sending my feedback where it's supposed to go. I can't write any programming code, so I can't do very much to help directly.

I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions. Maybe the others would like to chime in as well (if just to rid the sound of crickets I'm hearing) as I'd be interested in their responses as well. For the record, I just noticed that you were a participant as well, so many apologizes for overlooking you.

I'm glad you feel your time spent has been worthwhile. At least there appears to be some sort of listening going on at the EA Sports offices, although I question what specifically they are listening to. I get the sense their field of vision is very narrow, when they should be looking big picture. When they allocate their resources to small details (such as hairstyles, grass, etc.), they don't see the big issues at hand (reoccurring bugs that carry over title to title, dynasty issues, A.I. issues and bugs, etc.). I guess it comes down to the perception that they prefer to slap a new coat of paint and throw a band-aid on something, as opposed to actually fixing and polishing their product.

One more item I'd like to address, which I'm sure won't set well with everyone involved with the Game Changers program and Community Days events, but it would appear EA has "bought" another avenue to market the products as well as displace the dissatisfaction with said products. When I say "bought", I'm referring to your travel, food, hotel commendations, swag (free game, clothing, pens, toilet paper, etc. where applicable), and I would assume some form of pay for missed work time, whether through actual payment, advertising, etc. In essence, you could be viewed as an EA employee. Now before everyone gets their panties in a bunch, think about it for a second. When things turn for the worse, and I think we can all agree that NCAA '12 has, where are people going to complain? Sure, they could call, write, e-mail EA, go to their forums and express their anger, hit up their social media outlets such as Facebook or Twitter, go to certain extremes that don't need to be rehashed, etc., but it appears no one is listening. However, the people involved with Game Changers and Community Days , which have have a direct connection to the developers because, after all, EA is "listening" to your suggestions and recommendations towards the design, focus, implementation, etc. towards the game, are more readily available and a perceived "mouthpiece" for their product. Look at our conversation as an example of this. I feel like these programs are simply marketing ploys by EA Sports to get people to think they are listening to them - and even more so after Title Update #1 and #2. I find it absolutely absurd when Ben closes his blog on the second patch by stating, "I trust you will find that it has been well worth the wait." That implies his product is fixed - even beyond our expectations. When that truth has been revealed to be a blatant lie, they go silent...and this is where damage control (you guys), the neutral voice, comes in to deflect some of the anger from their company. I would look very carefully at your relationship with EA and what exactly that relationship brings to the table.

[Roy38]

My response was 'cause you didn't include me in the question

I didn't notice your name immediately, but I apologize for leaving you out of the conversation. But hey, thanks for illustrating your importance through the small remarks.

[bdoughty]

Boy who did not see this coming.

One more item I'd like to address, which I'm sure won't set well with everyone involved with the Game Changers program and Community Days events, but it would appear EA has "bought" another avenue to market the products as well as displace the dissatisfaction with said products.

I am going to jump in here as I have been around the industry and people working in it for quite some time. You are obviously a younger person or someone who has had little to no business experience. There will always be perks for people who cover the industry. In my time at OS I was given early access to the original Xbox Live and a personalized Headset for doing an interview with the announcer of Inside Drive 2004. Both myself and Steve Noah are listed as Free Agents in Inside Drive. The guys at 2Ksports always found a way to get us in the MLB games as minor league players. EA just happened to create a game changers program. They give a an outlet to people well known in the forums to cover information with their fellow forum members. If you think being "bought" is a company reimbursing you after what Paakka tried to explain to you then you are either a young fooolish teenager or just stirring up trouble because some feature of NCAA is not working to your liking.

I would look very carefully at your relationship with EA and what exactly that relationship brings to the table.

[Paakaa10]

One more item I'd like to address, which I'm sure won't set well with everyone involved with the Game Changers program and Community Days events, but it would appear EA has "bought" another avenue to market the products as well as displace the dissatisfaction with said products. When I say "bought", I'm referring to your travel, food, hotel commendations, swag (free game, clothing, pens, toilet paper, etc. where applicable), and I would assume some form of pay for missed work time, whether through actual payment, advertising, etc. In essence, you could be viewed as an EA employee.

Allow me to correct the later part of your statement. There is no direct exchange of money between EA SPORTS and people who attend Community Events. Travel is covered, hospitality is covered, but nobody gets paid to offset the time they missed at work. If a person goes to the event and doesn't have the paid time off or vacation time, then they lose whatever money they would have made at their employment for that time. For some people, a free video game and compensated travel expenses don't begin to touch the money they lose from not being on the clock.

I know that getting anything covered could essentially be construed as payment, believe me; I've heard the argument often enough. But we're also far from being employees at EA, if only because of our limited involvement in the development cycle.

It's not as though EA is the only company to hold community events, either. For some reason, these events and the people who attend them just seem to be placed under more scrutiny than those other companies.

Now before everyone gets their panties in a bunch, think about it for a second. When things turn for the worse, and I think we can all agree that NCAA '12 has, where are people going to complain? Sure, they could call, write, e-mail EA, go to their forums and express their anger, hit up their social media outlets such as Facebook or Twitter, go to certain extremes that don't need to be rehashed, etc., but it appears no one is listening.

To be fair, EA SPORTS has advertised email addresses specifically meant for people to send in feedback and any issues they are seeing with the game through their social media accounts. Anybody following those outlets would have that information available to them if they wanted to contact the development team directly. I know that the game's executive producer reads every single email that comes to that account.

However, the people involved with Game Changers and Community Days , which have have a direct connection to the developers because, after all, EA is "listening" to your suggestions and recommendations towards the design, focus, implementation, etc. towards the game, are more readily available and a perceived "mouthpiece" for their product. Look at our conversation as an example of this. I feel like these programs are simply marketing ploys by EA Sports to get people to think they are listening to them - and even more so after Title Update #1 and #2.

When we consider how many people frequent forums instead of emailing EA directly, it kind of just happens. People here--and some people away from here--know that The Gaming Tailgate's forums have a number of people who attended community events this year. The same is true for other websites owned and maintained by Game Changers and community attendees. If a person unhappy with the game doesn't think EA is going to listen to them, why wouldn't they come here and see if calling out to one of us might get them a better result? Whether that is actually true or not ends up not meaning much once somebody gets the belief in mind that trying to reach out to any official outlet at EA won't be fruitful for them.

I would prefer that people try to get in touch with the developers through the direct lines they have in place, but I also appreciate that--when I joined the Game Changers program--I would be seen as somebody in the community who might be granted more access than the average consumer. Again, if I thought that my time was being abused because I'm serving as an "unpaid intermediary" for the program, I wouldn't be in this position.

I find it absolutely absurd when Ben closes his blog on the second patch by stating, "I trust you will find that it has been well worth the wait." That implies his product is fixed - even beyond our expectations. When that truth has been revealed to be a blatant lie, they go silent...and this is where damage control (you guys), the neutral voice, comes in to deflect some of the anger from their company. I would look very carefully at your relationship with EA and what exactly that relationship brings to the table.

Again, the lines of communication were established by the company through the feedback email address. I don't feel at all like I've been here at the forums trying to say that Patch #1 or Patch #2 fixed everything that is still problematic with the game, and I don't feel like I've been intentionally deflecting anger from the company; though some people seem to take their excess anger out on us--people who gave feedback and had no direct hand in the creation of the game code--in addition to the development team at times.

When I joined the Game Changers program, I knew how polarizing EA SPORTS can be to people; there are people who love the company and the games, and an equal--probably greater--number who are on the opposite end of the spectrum. But having the opportunity to see inside the development process and provide feedback for the games has made it worthwhile for me.

I don't expect you to be in agreement with me about the various topics you've broached, but I hope that getting this perspective helps your understanding of the program and why somebody would put themselves into it.

[JeffHCross]

I didn't notice your name immediately, but I apologize for leaving you out of the conversation. But hey, thanks for illustrating your importance through the small remarks.

Well, considering you had asked who had participated, and I had answered, I assumed that I, Paakaa, Oneback Kwizzy, and steelerfan, all of whom are prominent and regular posters here, were left out of your question for a reason.

Now on to your question:

Maybe the others would like to chime in as well (if just to rid the sound of crickets I'm hearing)

I knew where you were going with it. I figured I'd let you make your point before responding.

When they allocate their resources to small details (such as hairstyles, grass, etc.), they don't see the big issues at hand (reoccurring bugs that carry over title to title, dynasty issues, A.I. issues and bugs, etc.). I guess it comes down to the perception that they prefer to slap a new coat of paint and throw a band-aid on something, as opposed to actually fixing and polishing their product.

It also comes down to the perception of what has changed. Are you saying that you'd rather they not spend any resources on those issues? So you'd prefer to see a game that looks the exact same as years past? Some people argue it does anyway, though I think those people are nuts. And, at the end of the day, there is more than just the TGT audience (and who we represent) to consider. A game that looks like it belongs in 2007, but is coming out in 2011, probably isn't going to get very much attention from the more casual audience.

Or are you saying that they spent too many resources on the art? Because I've noticed that quite a few people mention the grass, HDR and dreadlocks as if they're new features that are designed to sell the game. What about the enhanced Custom Conferences? Removal of suction blocking and tackling? Custom Playbooks? Coaching Carousel? I'd hazard to guess that the art enhancements, with the possible exception of fundamentally changing the lighting, cost a fraction of what any of those features I listed cost.

I would assume some form of pay for missed work time, whether through actual payment, advertising, etc.

You assume wrong.

When that truth has been revealed to be a blatant lie, they go silent...

It is the weekend ...

EDIT: Also, "blatant lie" implies intent. I'm 99% certain that the team didn't intend to further break advertised features with the patch.

and this is where damage control (you guys), the neutral voice, comes in to deflect some of the anger from their company. I would look very carefully at your relationship with EA and what exactly that relationship brings to the table.

Which posts, from Game Changers or Community Day participants, in this thread or any other, have been damage control? I sure haven't seen many, if any at all. In fact, I've seen several Community Day participants openly vote their frustration with the outcome of the second patch.

My "relationship" with EA has allowed me to provide feedback directly to EA, both before and post release. If you think the community as a whole is better off without that relationship, more power to you, but I would vehemently disagree.

[JeffHCross]

It's not as though EA is the only company to hold community events, either. For some reason, these events and the people who attend them just seem to be placed under more scrutiny than those other companies.

To be fair, it seems that way because of the fact that we're focused on an EA game, so EA events are going to be scrutinized. I'm familiar with Community events at other companies that actually have far more scrutiny, or much more public reaction, than the NCAA community events do.

[Paakaa10]

To be fair, it seems that way because of the fact that we're focused on an EA game, so EA events are going to be scrutinized. I'm familiar with Community events at other companies that actually have far more scrutiny, or much more public reaction, than the NCAA community events do.

Fair enough; pardon the hyperbole.

I bet those Cooking Mama community events elicit really feisty reactions in the forums.

[ram29jackson]

Or are you saying that they spent too many resources on the art? Because I've noticed that quite a few people mention the grass, HDR and dreadlocks as if they're new features that are designed to sell the game. What about the enhanced Custom Conferences? Removal of suction blocking and tackling? Custom Playbooks? Coaching Carousel? I'd hazard to guess that the art enhancements, with the possible exception of fundamentally changing the lighting, cost a fraction of what any of those features I listed cost.

none of those things matter right now because the game wasnt what it was a week ago.

as far as visuals are concerned madden went Picasso on everything in comparison. I dont even have a high def TV and madden is just so colorful and shaped so well..players ,players helmets,uniforms colors..the players faces look fleshy in a cartoon video game sense ( i mean it looks good ) the cut scenes in the huddle, the between quarter distance shots/ angles... they didnt touch the grass and I could care less about the grass LOL...thats not to say NCAA players arent bad in their own right, its very cool, although, like its been said, the PS3 ncaa 12 colors and graphics do look like a bad copy and paste job in comparison..my created teams arent as sharpe as last year and the end zones are of course blaagghhtgh

and a tiny touch, i finished a full game of Madden for once, finally and noticed at the very end that they do the whole copyright disclaimer like a real game.. I was in awe and laughing at the same time ( I was giddy/amused)

sorry, may have went off track LOL just comparing stuff

[JeffHCross]

none of those things matter right now because the game wasnt what it was a week ago.

He seemed to be discussing the resources that were allocated to the game as a whole, not the patch. So I shaped my response to that.

[ram29jackson]

He seemed to be discussing the resources that were allocated to the game as a whole, not the patch. So I shaped my response to that.

my response was about what I am thinking, not about what relates to what someone else is thinking. LOL Yes that was rather selfish of me LOL j/k....what ever you can do to the game , you should do, be it both creative and gameplay, thats great and all well and good.

what ever time and money they spent on what ever in a year, they botched in a month and I just want what I saw 2 weeks ago.........along with better playbooks...and home made chocolate cake with buttercream icing, sorry, that last one just kind of crossed my mind.......nevermind........cake.....

[Roy38]

Boy who did not see this coming.



I am going to jump in here as I have been around the industry and people working in it for quite some time. You are obviously a younger person or someone who has had little to no business experience. There will always be perks for people who cover the industry. In my time at OS I was given early access to the original Xbox Live and a personalized Headset for doing an interview with the announcer of Inside Drive 2004. Both myself and Steve Noah are listed as Free Agents in Inside Drive. The guys at 2Ksports always found a way to get us in the MLB games as minor league players. EA just happened to create a game changers program. They give a an outlet to people well known in the forums to cover information with their fellow forum members. If you think being "bought" is a company reimbursing you after what Paakka tried to explain to you then you are either a young fooolish teenager or just stirring up trouble because some feature of NCAA is not working to your liking.

I would have thought the way I outlined my post would indicate I am a mature person with a legitimate concern. I am married, have two children, and own my own successful business.

If you notice, I put "bought" in "quotes". It was an implied reference because I wasn't positive of the exact benefit the participants received. As Paakka outlined earlier,

[I]"Since many of the community event attendees were required to take time off from their employment--sometimes without having vacation time or paid time off to use to offset the time away--expenses were compensated. All community event attendees--not just those in the Game Changers program--also received a free copy of the game prior to retail release."

So to be clear, he does indicate that expenses were compensated, which could mean they were actually paid along with the other benefits. Since he was a little vague in his comment, at least to me, I used the term "bought" in "quotes". Again, regardless what they were given, my point remains the same. For all intents and purposes, these participants were brought in to provide information or knowledge to EA in exchange for travel, food, lodging, and a free copy of the game as well as early access at the very least. I would consider that a consulting "fee" on their product which, as you indicate, would be a reimbursement.

By the way, is the game to your liking?

[ebarws6]

Regarding the whole "don't like it, don't buy it" attitude, I personally think that's bullshit, excuse me. How is one to expect so many issues with features marketed so widely for the game, especially when they announce that fixes are on the way and somehow manage to mess things up even further? For example, some probably bought this game for the sole reason of making custom playbooks. I think it is completely inexcusable how many issues people have had with CPBs, and how they chose to deal with those issues. Basically, how are we supposed to know things are screwed up before we buy it? Yes, I know there are options such as renting it or waiting for a few weeks to see what everyone says, but honestly, when exciting features like the ones this year are announced, it's really hard to restrain from jumping on the game immediately (much respect for those who did hold back). I wish one of the community guys on here who got the game early could have ran into these problems earlier, could have saved people some time and money. (For the record I completely believe you guys saying that you never ran into the widespread problems, previous sentence was not sarcastic.)

Not trying to start a back and forth reply war with anyone or stir the pot in anyway, just stating my opinion.

[bdoughty]

I would have thought the way I outlined my post would indicate I am a mature person with a legitimate concern. I am married, have two children, and own my own successful business.
By the way, is the game to your liking?

You may just be a mature person but you seem to have a child like mentality when it comes to this business. Especially when you throw out.

I would look very carefully at your relationship with EA and what exactly that relationship brings to the table.

First of all it is none of your fucking business. Good heavens. This is a practice that happens in every business. Should they stop being a go-between because the product has issues? It is not like they are defending the issues or not responding to them. Does that benefit NCAA 13 and beyond? I like having the ear of someone who has the ear of EA. It beats calling customer service with a problem, complaint or suggestion or for that matter trying to do so on the EA Forums.

By the way, is the game to your liking?

To my liking, Yes. I play offline and never use custom playbooks. I can understand why people are upset but for cripes sake show me that perfect game. I like Dead Island but it does not mean I am happy with the graphical issues, crazy respawn issues and other problems.

[Paakaa10]

So to be clear, he does indicate that expenses were compensated, which could mean they were actually paid along with the other benefits. Since he was a little vague in his comment, at least to me, I used the term "bought" in "quotes". Again, regardless what they were given, my point remains the same. For all intensive purposes, these participants were brought in to provide information or knowledge to EA in exchange for travel, food, lodging, and a free copy of the game as well as early access at the very least. I would consider that a consulting "fee" on their product which, as you indicate, would be a reimbursement.

Since it seems clear that you did not see my response in between your previous message and the one here, I will direct you to it instead of re-typing what I said there: http://www.thegamingtailgate.com/for...l=1#post103839