Read the article psuexv just posted, Gus.
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Read the article psuexv just posted, Gus.
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Well said psuexv, I have been trying to avoid saying a whole lot as I'm really emotionally tied to this stuff and can sometimes let my feelings overcome my fingers and mind while typing.Quote:
Originally Posted by psuexv
Gricar at the time he went missing was investigating a bigger story if I recall correctly. Plus just because he dropped the charges or didn't pursue them against Sandusky doesn't mean one is tied into the other. If people start those rumors they could do that to every single university out there. Let's allow the facts to come out.
That statement is the issue. From what is stated in the grand jury statement, this was not under Joe's watch. As OB stated, we don't know all of the facts, maybe something happened before 98 maybe something didn't.... We don't know. Most of the reports are after he retired from the university and all of the involvements were with boys from his charity, nothing to do with the Penn State FOOTBALL program. A number of the incidents even allegedly happened in his own house or at high schools that he was involved in. Did some of the events happen on PSU campus in football buildings, yes. But this would be more of a university issue. His access to the football buildings were part of his compensation package, he had no official interaction with the football team and Joe had no control over him from an "employer" relationship.Quote:
Originally Posted by gigemaggs99
I don't want to sound like I'm defending what happened or defending these people for doing nothing if in fact they knew what happened. It's the attitude that it was under Joe's "watch"..... yep Jerry would bring kids in and line them up and Joe would pick which one.
Still just assumption given the storied career of Joe Paterno that he had any knowledge of the 1998 incident. It has been reported that he didn't know anything, and hasn't come out officially that he has either. Yet everyone is "assuming" based off his name that he did. Lets allow things to come out (if they do) before we bury someone that maybe just maybe isn't the bad guy in all of this.
The Sandusky part of this story certainly hasn't run it's course either. As soon as this broke, every new media jumped in and on Joe and hasn't let up. While I can't understand why more wasn't done I also don't have certain facts about the information either. Until we know for sure what Joe reported to Curley and Shultz and what Mike McQueary reported to Joe I'll wait to pass my judgement on a man that has shown to be of good sound character.
I mean Mike McQueary reproted this immediately to his father John McQueary Chief Operating Officer/Administrative Director Centre Medical and Surgical Associates, P.C. certainly held the same moral obligations as others but I have YET to read one report or anything regarding his job or questioning his morals in this whole story.
All I know from the '98 investigating was that Joe stated to the Grand Jury that he didn't know about it. Did he lie, I have no idea. All I can go by is the facts that are presented to me. The rest is speculation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneback
That is what has been so hard about all of this. As we talk about it people quickly assume we are justifying the actions of some when in fact we are most certainly not just the way things are being portrayed or "reported" or decided upon.Quote:
Originally Posted by psuexv
He busted that huge drug dealer like 2 years before and word was he wanted revenge. My money is that he's in witness protection.Quote:
Originally Posted by psusnoop
Well said, snoop.
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As for the riots, ah so they flipped one vehicle. I don't think it was nearly as bad as I feared last night and I'm glad.
Could be, I've flipped flopped a little on this and now leaning towards he is dead. If witness protection why the computer in the river? Maybe that is a cover for the witness protection maybe not. Just a thought on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by psuexv
But yes that is what I remember about that time frame and certainly fits the mold much better the tied into this horrific acts at PSU.
OK now see this is why I have tried to stay clear of this and stayed up shooting people in Battlefield 3. I get so emotional and have just had a pounding headache for days about all of this stuff.
Sure I know many have their favorite teams but I know for a fact that Eric and having grown up here and been so close to this program this hits so close to home it is unreal. We live here, we have only known Joe Paterno as the head coach. We have only known PSU to be held at such a high standard that all of this is mind numbing and hard to take in. It is hard to stay to the facts, the media certainly hasn't. I could give you quote after quote of people "misremembering" what they read in the grand jury report yet they quickly hop on the radio, phone, or TV to chime in on this.
Also to go further on this, I was talking to Matt last night and you said something that struck me. The story of the lady at the bar saying how she couldn't believe that Joe molested all those children. :fp: That is how much Joe's name has been the lead story of this over the true predator and sick fuck that should be all over the news.
Okay so, Ashton Kutcher tweeted in outrage that Joe Pa was fired.
He didn't even know the story of what was going on :fp: :D
From the alleged facts I have heard/read, there were incidents where Sandusky showered with young boys to which one of the boys told his parents and the mother contacted campus security in 1998. There was an investigation by campus security to which Sandusky admitted to showering with the boy (under what pretense I don't know) and that he wouldn't do it again. Later that following year Joe Pa informed Sandusky that he would no longer be in line to take over as Head Coach, Sandusky then "retired" in 1999 and as part of his retirement he retained the right to utilize the Penn State athletic facilities. Then in 2000 a janitor witnessed Sandusky performing sexual acts on a minor and then later in the year another janitor witnessed Sandusky leaving a shower holding a minors hand. There are reports of other incidents up to 2009 as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by psuexv
Now, I fully admit these are alleged facts and that it is pure speculation to say Joe Pa knew of these incidents, however there are red flags all over the place and rational thought tells you these incidents were known by Joe Pa and were probably the leading cause in informing Sandusky he would not be taking over as Head Coach.
What bothers me the most having grown up in a coaching family and having a family member as a big time college coach, is that the men involved in this case preach accountability and moral values on a daily basis but when it came time to practice what you preach they looked the other way. Is this a case where something looked odd and there were thoughts that there may be smoke but no fire and they tried to deal with it by sweeping it under the rug, maybe. However, if the alleged facts turn out to be true, where they thought there was only smoke there was a burning inferno to which the people entrusted with leading young men turned a blind eye and that is why the media is on Joe Pa's doorstep.
Having feeling like I know most the guys in this thread either through interacting via this forum or whatnot, I don't think anyone believes you guys are trying to justify anything, but that's just me.Quote:
Originally Posted by psusnoop
"Alleged facts"? :fp:
Just to clarify, the janitor "incidents" are all one incident. The hand-holding followed the shower setting all in the same night.
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I know you all know where we stand OB it is hard and a fine line on this subject though. So many victims and such a horrendous act makes this so hard to even think about.
I have had a pounding headache and can't sleep good since this all broke.
OB I can see where everyone is tying this all together as in how didn't he know, but until we see factual information and reports of such I don't think it is fair to assume as much either. (for those just reading that sentence please read everything posted by me and others and don't assume my stance on this matter) OB knows where I'm going with this.
I just have a hard time believing that Joe knew Jerry was raping or raped a young boy and choose to not address the situation. Yes we can go the grand jury report but we don't know all the fine details within it. There are gaps and questions that need addressed to clear up any doubt. Maybe only a few have doubts but I'm not one to judge people without knowing it all.
I can appreciate the Joe Paterno is an awesome coach, with regards to football. I think the problem is, ya'll are in the bubble. It's totally awesome you are tried and true Penn St fans. You should continue to support the program. You shouldn't say things like fuck penn state, go Irish. Maybe that's just emotions and jokes, but that is NOT what this story is about. Penn St's football program is not going to get the death penalty and from the sounds of no NCAA action will be done, NOR should it be. This has nothing to do with the football program.
It DOES have everything to do with Joe Paterno. Perhaps ya'll are blinded by it since you live in the bubble. Joe Pa wasn't just some football coach that should have told his boss. He is one of the BIGGEST guys in colllege football, he's not just a random coach. He's like Bear Bryant, or Vin Lombardi. I'd say he's even bigger than Bobby Bowden.
From an outsider's perspective, who else in your lifetime has been able to tell their boss NO I don't want to step down from my job? Joe did, he told them to get out of his house. He was in charge.
Who in their right mind has never heard gossip at work? Who has ever worked somewhere for 47 years? They have to talk! To make it sound like Joe didn't know anything about this is just plain SILLY!
Who in the their right mind would approach something like: So you go to the mall, there is old mall employee that has been rumored to have molested kids. You tell someone maybe a store manager and assume they will take it farther up the chain. Then you just IGNORE IT...then a few years pass and you see the SAME guy with kids...yet you don't stop to wonder...HEY what ever happened? Maybe I should follow up? What if years later it was YOUR kid walking with that same freakshow? Would you not ask? Would you not wonder? Would you just sleep sound at night with the "well I know he may have maybe done something sicko with kids 3-4 years ago, but he's a good guy and besides, I told that one guy at the, the store manager....and he would NEVER do something with other kids including MINE."
YEAH RIGHT!
Seriously? Joe Paterano should have done more.
Years after Joe is no longer his "boss" this Freakshow is invited on Penn St bowl games and just happens to have a child as his "guest" who also happens to stay with him in his hotel room? I guess Joe didn't see that either. For real? Joe couldn't have done more?
Do you see, outside of how he's a great football coach how this is morally wrong? Can you seperate the football GAME part of it with REAL LIFE? Why in the world did Joe say, I wish I would have done more? Who says that after the fact?
The dude goes on to molest and hurt kids long after the fact and all you can say is I wish I did more?....MY BAD, so can I coach this weekend? Seriously?
It just keeps soundling like this, to an outsider like me from those of ya'll in the bubble...."so yeah it sucks and all that kids were raped and molested.....can Joe coach more, what about football, football, football?" Seriously? That's the focus?
Personally I find it VERY strange, I'm not a coach, but I figure those guys basically live together. They are with their team and fellow coaches MUCH more than they are with their own families. Are we to believe NONE of them knew about this, none of them talked about it? Nothing was every said? They have all been together MUCH longer than, many years together, bus trips, recruiting trips, all the time spent together and they NEVER talked about it and never thought it was strange that the Dude was still working around/with and inviting kids to sleep over at his house?
...."oh gee that sure does sound strange to me bob...well onto bigger and more important things in life, like what kinda coverage scheme we're going to run this weekend."
I think Penn State is awesome. When I was a kid my Dad earned his Ph.D in Petroleum Eng from Rolla, MO. He interviewed at 2 places, Texas Tech University and Penn State. He chose Texas Tech. I was only in the 9th grade when this happened but I wanted Penn State. I watched football, I thought and STILL think they were awesome. My Dad brought back Penn St sweatshirts for me and my brother. Same from Tech, but I always wore the Penn State one. I'm not saying the football team still isn't bad-ass, I'm just saying that there are more important things in life, protecting children from predators should be job #1.
What if one of these kids dreamed of someday becomming the head coach at Penn St, then this happens to them...their life would be turned upside down. The kids are the important thing here, not that an 84 year old man lost his job. He's lived a very full life, these kids that are mentally dealing with this have a long time before they reach 84.
I'm sure ya'll will continue to tell me to look at stories about how Joe is getting the raw deal here...really? What about those kids? What do they get?
I'll say this first as I'm losing my spots here Gus, first off I haven't mentioned or seen anyone post they wanted Joe to keep coaching. Steelerfan mentioned Suspending him till all the facts of the case comes out.
Assuming that the rest of the staff knew about this is absurd and having someone (my neighbor) on the staff I find this statement to be absurd and way off base.
I'll have to read your post again to comment more but these two things jumped out first and I wanted to get it out there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by psusnoop
I think they want them (coaching staff) to stay quiet for legal reasons. This just came, people are going to sue.
When Bonfire fell, NO ONE was going to sue, they all stood behind A&M. Then over time, every single family that lost a child put it to A&M.
Penn St is telling everyone to stay quiet for legal reasons.
The reports asked the interm coach today in his press conference a "sticky" question. It seems obivous but I think lawyers were probably squirming in the background. Someone asked him the obivious, if someone sees something this being done to a student, or hears about it or knows about it, shouldn't they take it to the authorties?
His answer after a few seconds was, yes, without a doubt....
Ok we'll he's been there a for a long time too, last night or a few days ago was the 1st time he's EVER heard of this?
FOR REAL?!
EDIT: Time will tell how "absurd" this is. I'll be amazed if more doesn't come out of the woodworks. I HOPE PRAY more doesn't but it just doesn't seem like the University would jump to such a big idea as firing the President and head football coach on a whim. If they did, then the univeristy has those issues to deal with too.
I would agree, it seems like there is a "little" thing called due process or law...but for that many regents and trustess to get together and decided 100% it seems like they aren't telling us all the facts due to pending lawsuits. They are covering their butts.
Gus, you have so many facts mixed up, I don't even care to address it all right now.
And, for clarity's sake, I don't "live in the bubble". I live in Northwest Houston. I've never lived in PA and I didn't go to school at PSU. I've just been a fan for about 30 years. I'm the one who said what you quoted, not the guys who live there.
My problem is that he was fired when he should have (at most) been suspended. If he participated in a coverup, fine. But we don't know that, and the BOT says they don't know that either.
What we know is that McQueary told him that he may have witnessed some sort of molestation. Paterno, in turn, turned out over to his bosses. One of his bosses (Schultz) had the campus police under his areas of responsibility. The other boss (Curly) later told Joe that it was looked into and found to be "horse play"and that they told Sandusky not to bring anymore kids to the campus. At this point, that is all that is known, and that is all that is in the Grand Jury Report.
Anything else is an ASSumption.
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This is rumor and nothing factual has ever come out. When asked last night the BOT denied it.Quote:
Originally Posted by gigemaggs99
Well actually lots of people say that after the fact. I wish I wouldn't have tried driving 100+ down a curvy highway when I was younger and seriously injuring me and my friend.Quote:
Originally Posted by gigemaggs99
Once again not once have I stated that Joe should be coaching Saturday or thereafter.Quote:
Originally Posted by gigemaggs99
This statement is silly Gus, like I said earlier knowing some of these coaches and throwing such a blanket over them all is not fair and something that many of them are having a tough time dealing with right now. This is not right, not fair and not something that I like from society when we think like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by gigemaggs99
Anyone that thinks anyone is getting anything of a positive from this all is really sick and perverse. There are tons of people and victims that are dealing with things that many of us can only imagine. No one here is trying to do anything other then ask that justice be served and the facts come out.Quote:
Originally Posted by gigemaggs99
Thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and many people that this has affected.