Penn State Football

CLW has a solid point here. Only in sports do people act like things should be fair. :D Just as an example: One of Nebraska's players was bitching about not being compensated for the millions of dollars in revenue that he brings in for his "company" & doesn't get a chunk of & It's like, welcome to the real world kid. I turn out millions of dollars a year in designs for my company & still live paycheck to paycheck. Your scholarship is your chunk.

Snoop I get what you're saying though but really would you expect any different? When things are all rosey & good the engineering department doesn't get a fraction of the press that the football team does. Why should it be any different when shit hits the fan? Everyone who is logical about this wants everyone responsible to get what's coming to them however that's not what makes the "news". It's the sensationalized bs that brings in viewers and reader that drives what you're going to hear about in any situation nowadays anyway. It's a sad state of affairs but it is what it is. Have you watched the new series on HBO "The Newsroom"? It's a great show that pretty much spotlights exactly that point.

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Originally Posted by Kwizzy

CLW has a solid point here. Only in sports do people act like things should be fair. :D Just as an example: One of Nebraska's players was bitching about not being compensated for the millions of dollars in revenue that he brings in for his "company" & doesn't get a chunk of & It's like, welcome to the real world kid. I turn out millions of dollars a year in designs for my company & still live paycheck to paycheck. Your scholarship is your chunk.

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Yep, I know this is off topic but that's what irritates me about Pro athletes as well. Always complaining about the owners making too much money and if they don't get paid they hold out or they have a lockout. You think the employees at Microsoft see a fair share of Bill Gates' billions of dollars or the Subway employee who busts their ass during lunch hour to keep the line moving sees anymore of Subway's billions? Or how about the fact that these owners pony up hundreds of millions of dollars to buy these franchise, they should be well compensated.

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Originally Posted by psuexv

Yep, I know this is off topic but that's what irritates me about Pro athletes as well. Always complaining about the owners making too much money and if they don't get paid they hold out or they have a lockout. You think the employees at Microsoft see a fair share of Bill Gates' billions of dollars or the Subway employee who busts their ass during lunch hour to keep the line moving sees anymore of Subway's billions? Or how about the fact that these owners pony up hundreds of millions of dollars to buy these franchise, they should be well compensated.

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Exactly, you're entitled to jack shit in this life. You get what you work for & earn (or in some cases what your parents earn :D ). They all need to shut up. If they don't like it they can start their own league & see how that goes.

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Originally Posted by souljahbill

But is Penn State an evil doer or 4-5 people? The people in the wrong are either getting their come-up-ins or will soon enough. There's no need to slaughter an entire heard of cattle because a few are really sick. Because the president of Bank of America is out to swindle you doesn't mean the local teller is out to get you. Get the people, not the institution.

Note: I just argued against a lawyer. My argument is about to get dissected and spat back at me. :D

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The Answer (under the law) is BOTH. (one can always argue something to the contrary as a public policy argument)

An entity (corporation, charity, or in this case Penn State University) is not a living breathing thing. Instead, it can ONLY act through its employees. The law generally holds an entity responsible for its employees "bad acts" (either civilly and/or criminally) when the employee does the act in the "course and scope" of his/her employment (basically the employee acted to help the corporation as part of his/her job). The law also holds individuals responsible for these same acts. (easiest case is Sue Truck Driver and Trucking Company after 18 wheeler accident)

Here, the higher ups at Penn State University hid a child molestor to protect the University (i.e. the football program and probably the university as a whole) as part of their jobs. (note the law would likely not punish Penn State for Sandusky's conduct while he was an employee of the University since raping children didn't to my knowledge fall under his job description at Penn State) The higher ups can be held responsible civilly and criminally. However, that does not protect the entity (Penn State University). It too is a bad actor (in the eyes of the law) and is therefore subject to punishment.

In sum, the law would generally permit Penn State to be punished for the acts of those in power in the cover up. Of course, the question as to whether punish Penn State and if so to what extent is a matter of policy. The law cannot decide that. Rather it is for "the people" to decide (i.e. jury / NCAA enforcement people depending on the venue and type of punishment being discussed).

Really, Penn State could easily also be charged criminally as well for this cover up. I'd imagine there are all kinds of strings attached to Federal $ that Penn State (like all major universities) receives for things such as research.

This scandal has potentially opened up a virtually unlimited Pandora's Box of problems for the University.

A quote I just read that is a major issue with how everything is being handled.

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The trustees have been concerned this week that the NCAA will hand down an extreme punishment, possibly the death penalty for the football program, for the school's "loss of institutional control" in the Jerry Sandusky child sex abuse scandal.

Dealing with the statue issue, and the resignation of Garban, was needed to show the public the board was serious about "moving forward," one trustee said.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/...ions-president

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I have a feeling it's going to be the same way with the NCAA. Instead of handing out punishments or making decisions that are just and severe, but yet fair, the BoT, the NCAA, everyone is going to be leaping to this and that simply to prove to the public, the NCAA, etc that they are dealing with this, handing out punishments, and moving forward instead of trying to sweep it under the rug. The amount of public emotion tied to this story alone is enough to make any decision the NCAA or Penn State makes regarding anything related to all of this biased in an effort to save some sort of face in the wake of everything.

Penalties announced tomorrow. Reports are no death penalty, but there will be some unprecedented penalties handed out.

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Originally Posted by JBHuskers

Penalties announced tomorrow. Reports are no death penalty, but there will be some unprecedented penalties handed out.

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No comment, I'll talk to you in a few hours :D

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Originally Posted by psusnoop

No comment, I'll talk to you in a few hours :D

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:+1: or after someone does an official investigation i.e. the courts or NCAA

The death penalty doesn't mean the current players will be screwed. They will have the opportunity to transfer without sitting out a year. See SMU.

The Death penalty or any other penalty isn't put in place to punish the current players. That's not the point. The POINT is to make the university understand that what they did was wrong.

This is just me, an outsider. I get really tired of hearing from people inside the university defend joe paterno, or say things like, well he wasn't the ONLY person involved why aren't the other people being called out. Well, b/c for the rest of the country, we don't see those other people's statues. We don't see their names on buildings. It's very nice he donated a lot of money and shared the wealth, but it doesn't make it ok or excuse what happened.

It's hard b/c this involves kids. All the other NCAA violations involve money or houses, or benefits, not kids.

I think it's also hard for the rest of the country, not the ones inside the Penn St bubble to wrap their heads around it, or the possible self imposed sanctions that the university is doing, b/c I've yet to hear an apology. I've yet to hear the University say, there was a mistake and we made a HUGE mistake.

Look at the statue coming down, people have to threat or give plane banner ultimatums for the university to take action. Why didn't they take that action on their own? It seems they are constantly reacting, not being proactive. I think a good start would to be 100% brutally honest w/ the rest of the country on how much Joe did or didn't know. How much EVERYONE knew or didn't knew, stop covering it up and only addressing things as you are forced to by public opinion or pressure.

It almost seems like they are doing the biggest case of crisis management out there. If they leak a little at a time, let us wrap our heads around it then leak a little more, this helps to keep the nation or general public from going nuts. Look at how the university reacted when they fired Joe. They had riots, turning over a tv van, kids going nuts. Can you image what would happen if they released all the information at once? It would be crazy. I'd really like to see an interview with some of those kids that were screaming on ESPN that he should never have been fired, I'd like to hear what they have to say now. Again, it seems like they are too wrapped up on the inside of things....they aren't looking at this the same way the nation is.

Has Penn St every admitted fault or issued an apology?

Maybe that will come AFTER the NCAA drops the hammer on them...again reactive....

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Originally Posted by gigemaggs99

The Death penalty or any other penalty isn't put in place to punish the current players. That's not the point. The POINT is to make the university understand that what they did was wrong.

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And, supposedly, deter others, just like any punishment in the legal system.

But, no matter what the point is, the effect is that current players and coaches get punished for something they weren't involved in. Whether or not that's the point, that's the effect.

I'm hoping the NCAA has been a little more creative and come up with a punishment that servers both as a deterrent and avoids punishing people that had nothing to do with it. Take the gate receipts from football and put them in child abuse charities, not the University coffers. Make them pay X amount from their endowment. Whatever. But don't kill the football team just for the sake of killing it. Let the community bond over the football team this September, and use that bonding as a positive.

The death penalty is not the answer.

I think this case is unique enough that showing that "we won't tolerate this" is kinda unnecessary. I'm not saying that Penn St. shouldn't pay some kind of price but handing out severe punishments sounds like a P.R. maneuver that doesn't really "fix" anything. Plus, do we really need to show that "we won't stand for this?"

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Originally Posted by souljahbill

I think this case is unique enough that showing that "we won't tolerate this" is kinda unnecessary. I'm not saying that Penn St. shouldn't pay some kind of price but handing out severe punishments sounds like a P.R. maneuver that doesn't really "fix" anything. Plus, do we really need to show that "we won't stand for this?"

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If there were people covering it up for 10+ years because the school's "image" would be ruined, then I would say a reminder would not be the worst possible thing.

Between the statue and the NCAA punishment, I still say all of this shit is being purely driven by emotion and public outrage. Decisions are being made solely to save face and appease the public right now, not to truly answer to and work past this scandal. Just like posts in this thread, one of the main points repeatedly being brought up, "think of the kids, it's about the kids, kids, kids, kids". Yes, think of the kids, but don't use the kids as a stepping stone to rushing to a judgment and potentially overreacting.

There are idiots out there who think and are saying the Penn State football program should be killed forever, dumbasses (who slightly scare me by even saying it) saying the entire Penn State campus should be carpet bombed, and then in their minds, if you don't automatically support and agree with the statue being taken down or think that the football team should be given the death penalty, suddenly you're pro-child raping/molesting. :fp:

No decisions made or penalties handed out by the NCAA will ever be fair or just, now or in the near/immediate future, because everything is being driven by emotion and public outrage, whose own judgment on things are clouded by their own outrage. People want justice now. If the public had gotten their own way in demanding immediate justice, George Martin would have been executed or strung up by a lynch mob within 3 days of the Trayvon Martin shooting. Sometimes succumbing to the public demand for immediate justice is fucking stupid. Unfortunately, that is exactly what is happening here because "think of the kids". All it takes is one person to mention the words "think of the kids" and it turns into all out vile bashing and threats of death, destruction of property, and everything else under the sun by the public.

Isn't Penn State a State University?

I have to keep deleting shit I type but again see Eric's response to mine.

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Originally Posted by psusnoop

I have to keep deleting shit I type but again see Eric's response to mine.

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Agreed, I type a bunch of stuff then see steelerfan's image response.

I understand this "the public wants an answer now" stuff, I'm just having a hard time with how slow things come out. We are in the age of twitter and facebook and all types of NOW media. I'm amazed that we still don't know all the stuff. All we keep hearing is, well we want the entire story to come out. Is it b/c of massive pending legal issues they can't/won't tell us the entire truth?

The really said things is, the longer it takes for them to get everything out into the open, the longer this is going to go on. This story broke last fall, football season is about ready to start and we haven't heard the whole truth...this is going to take some time.

Sounds like some have had enough already though....http://www.centredaily.com/2012/07/2...e-recruit.html


I am interested to see how this plays out though. It seems like when it first came out the NCAA seemed to have the stand of this is a criminal matter for the courts and law enforcement to deal with...now they are coming back into the fray....I'd like to know what magic evidence changed their minds.

It took the NCAA what 4 years to figure out if Bush took money and then you have UNC and Miami who are still an issue. Or many many other examples where due process is given and an investigation launched yet since this is criminal the NCAA can hand out sanctions before those charged are found guilty or not guilty?

Does that make sense to anyone?

Also Webb decommitting isn't something I'm going to worry about yet. If more do then yes but not after one goes. That happens every year, just happens it also fits into what the media would like for you to read and BELIEVE.

Here is you flying purple guinea pig that sings the national anthem in Chinese. Oh why thank you very much.... In my best voice says the general public

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Originally Posted by psusnoop

Does that make sense to anyone?

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Only to those who think, "OMG little boys were butt-raped! Do SOMETHING!"

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Originally Posted by gigemaggs99

All we keep hearing is, well we want the entire story to come out. Is it b/c of massive pending legal issues they can't/won't tell us the entire truth?

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Yes. First of all, you don't comment on on-going cases. Second, the only people really commenting are the media and Paterno's family. The family is asking for due process to run its course (which will never happen, because people want "answers" long before they'll allow enough time to get them), and media is ready to jump on the next juicy item to come out.

What you're not hearing is anything from any party, still alive, that was involved in the alleged cover-up. Because the only person that matters "now" is Paterno, and he's (conveniently as far as scape-goating is concerned) not around to defend himself.

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Originally Posted by psusnoop

Does that make sense to anyone?

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Look at the speed of Ohio State versus those you just named. The NCAA's speed of turnaround makes no freaking sense. But I am pretty sure that the "headline" nature of this event is what's driving the speed of the sanctions.

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Originally Posted by psusnoop

since this is criminal

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I'm still trying to figure out why the NCAA has any jurisdiction over criminal matters. What reason are they going to use for, let's say, eliminating scholarships at Penn State? Because they broke the law? No shit. But that's not your job.

Lack of institutional control?

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Originally Posted by ryby6969

Lack of institutional control?

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Like Miami?

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Nah, covering for a child molester for more than a decade is a little worse but try again. ;)

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In determining whether there has been a lack of institutional control when a violation of NCAA rules has been found it is necessary to ascertain what formal institutional policies and procedures were in place at the time the violation of NCAA rules occurred and whether those policies and procedures, if adequate, were being monitored and enforced.

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I agree that a (alleged) cover-up would logically fall under Lack of Institutional Control, but the rules dictate that the control is about NCAA violations, not legal issues. As far as I can tell, there is no NCAA rule that discusses criminal misconduct.

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Originally Posted by gigemaggs99

Agreed, I type a bunch of stuff then see steelerfan's image response

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A) I wasn't responding to you.

B) Unbeknownst to you, your responses are exactly the type of comments that are driving snoop up the wall and causing him to not be involved in any of this conversation. :)

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Well we will all know tomorrow morning. The media is reporting SEVERE punishment but no death penalty. Some are even saying it will be questionable which is worse a death penalty or the punishment coming tomorrow. I find it hard to believe that any punishment could be worse than a ban but we shall see.

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Originally Posted by ryby6969

Nah, covering for a child molester for more than a decade is a little worse but try again. ;)

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From a moral or ethical standpoint, yes. (However, what was covered and by whom is still unclear. You're going off of a report that was full of assumptions made by a man who, himself, is accused of covering his own ass and that of the FBI in regards to murdering US Citizens.)

But, is it within the NCAA's jurisdiction? I don't know. If it is, you'd think they'd let the legal process play out first. Afterall, it's entirely possible that the situation at Penn State is WORSE than anyone assumes now. No need to deal out punishments in haste.

Miami's situation, on the other hand, is undoubtedly the NCAA's area of concern.

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Originally Posted by steelerfan

From a moral or ethical standpoint, yes. (However, what was covered and by whom is still unclear. You're going off of a report that was full of assumptions made by a man who, himself, is accused of covering his own ass and that of the FBI in regards to murdering US Citizens.)

But, is it within the NCAA's jurisdiction? I don't know. If it is, you'd think they'd let the legal process play out first. Afterall, it's entirely possible that the situation at Penn State is WORSE than anyone assumes now. No need to deal out punishments in haste.

Miami's situation, on the other hand, is undoubtedly the NCAA's area of concern.

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So what makes the recent reports for what happened in Miami more credible then what happened at PSU? That guy is certainly much more credible.

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Originally Posted by CLW

Some are even saying it will be questionable which is worse a death penalty or the punishment coming tomorrow. I find it hard to believe that any punishment could be worse than a ban but we shall see.

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Well, with the way "give them the death penalty!" has been thrown around in recent years, it's clear to me that A) People forget what SMU did to actually deserve the death penalty; B) People forget just how deadly it is.

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Originally Posted by ryby6969

So what makes the recent reports for what happened in Miami more credible then what happened at PSU? That guy is certainly much more credible.

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Oh. I didn't realize that there was a press conference tomorrow to hand out penalties to Miami too. My bad. ;)

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Originally Posted by JeffHCross

Well, with the way "give them the death penalty!" has been thrown around in recent years, it's clear to me that A) People forget what SMU did to actually deserve the death penalty; B) People forget just how deadly it is.

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Very true Jeff, but some would argue that PSU may be dead already as a recovery from this scandal will be a huge challenge. How many parents with YOUNG kids will say :yeah I want to send me most precious assest to Penn State? I would like to hear more about the BIG 10 and their thoughts.

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Originally Posted by JeffHCross

Well, with the way "give them the death penalty!" has been thrown around in recent years, it's clear to me that A) People forget what SMU did to actually deserve the death penalty; B) People forget just how deadly it is.

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I agree, I don't think enough people have seen how bad it hurt the football program there.

Like others have said, why is this criminal matter a NCAA issue? I sure hope they explain or have a statement as to why they are now coming back to the issue and handing out their punishments tomorrow.

It's just strange how at first they seemed to be stepping away citing it was for the courts to decide, but now they are back. Why?

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Originally Posted by jaymo76

Very true Jeff, but some would argue that PSU may be dead already

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I agree. But I don't believe in kicking someone when they're down. Don't punish the program just to punish them -- just because you think you have to. Give the program an opportunity to come back, but make something positive out of that (possible) resurrection.

Not to mention, the death penalty against Penn State football has ramifications far and above just football. That's basically a death sentence for the entire athletic department, plus the effect on staff and local businesses. I'm not saying you should backtrack on a punishment because of the collateral damage, but it gives me more reason to believe that the punishment needs to be ... creative.

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Originally Posted by gigemaggs99

It's just strange how at first they seemed to be stepping away citing it was for the courts to decide, but now they are back. Why?

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My guess: The courts ruled on Sandusky and the Freeh Report came in, and that was enough for them.

One thought: The NCAA is coming down tomorrow because PSU people have laid down their own punishment as a way to save face. Emmett has talked with PSU and agreed it is satisfactory and will announce them at a correct time. The NCAA says they have these sanctions and looks great in the public eyes for taking action. Psu looks good to the NCAA for taking responsibility. . The NCAA knows they legally can't charge psu even with LOIC but if psu self punishes themselves it will work. However psu knows that they would not get public support for doing enough no matter what they decide so they work through the NCAA in negotiations and come up with what they feel is fair. The NCAA gets to stand tall and psu hopes this starts the healing process.

Again just a thought.

How else can you explain handing out sanctions to a member institution of a criminal case before that case goes to trial?

This Louis Freeh just on Friday had his investigation into a President or someone in FIFA thrown out for making opinions and other irrational assumptions by a higher sports court. If he fucked up and messed up something as big as FIFA with opinions just what did he do in this case to all of a sudden think he a great moral person (not bringing up his past at all just recent information). Think about this, the Freeh report comes out when?? They knew this FIFA one was almost ending, how would the public feel of they knew this Louis Freeh manipulated and almost imposed a lifetime ban and a million dollar fine based off his opinions would impact this investigation? I know I'm biased but this would certainly make me think twice about believing this report if the FIFA one came out first.


There is so much BS circling PSU that I have read all these and it's cool you all don't know some things that we that are close do.

My friend went to unimart (little gas station and service store) and he had psu stuff on and something about Joe on. Some ignorant dick confronted him about it. He was better then me because I wouldn't be able to post this all for a few more hours till I got my work release. That is as bad as what I've read about all psu fans shouldn't be allowed to have kids. Seriously someone said that, I mean really! Yet so many do not understand why a few of us stand tall and maybe express ourselves a little bit and I'm sorry. There have been way to many liberties taken against us that I just feel like I may snap and I don't want to.


I still want to see or hear the facts and involvement of anyone associated with this. Former DA's, current DA's, former governors, former AG's, current AG's, now governer and I haven't even mentioned psu staff and board members yet.

Hey Jeff think about Pegula who dropped over 100 million on a new hockey arena and div1 hockey teams and now it could certainly be all for not as there may not be hockey because of these snap decisions.

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Originally Posted by psusnoop

One thought: The NCAA is coming down tomorrow because PSU people have laid down their own punishment as a way to save face.

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I had thought that earlier. And I think I did hear somewhere that the sanctions had been negotiated with PSU, but I may be just making up stuff. If that was the case, it would be a good PR move for the NCAA to let PSU announce them. Maybe they will.

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Originally Posted by psusnoop

Hey Jeff think about Pegula who dropped over 100 million on a new hockey arena and div1 hockey teams and now it could certainly be all for not as there may not be hockey because of these snap decisions.

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Yep. People throw around "death penalty" like it will just kill football. If it only affected football, I'd be a little more likely to discuss it. But the ramifications of football sanctions are felt by all sports at a school. Whether or not you believe that's fair is a personal opinion, but in my opinion it's not.

cbs leaks are starting to come out saying that the ncaa could fine penn state as much as $30 million to $60 million.

i know this is from a rivals message board, and there's probably not a whole lot of credibility here, but this twit pic reveals massive sanctions against em (if they're true)

https://p.twimg.com/AydmKt2CYAAp8c-.jpg:large

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Originally Posted by baseballplyrmvp

cbs leaks are starting to come out saying that the ncaa could fine penn state as much as $30 million to $60 million.

i know this is from a rivals message board, and there's probably not a whole lot of credibility here, but this twit pic reveals massive sanctions against em (if they're true)

https://p.twimg.com/AydmKt2CYAAp8c-.jpg:large

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Wow! If that's true I am absolutely speechless. Wow! If that document is true Penn State football is dead.

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Originally Posted by jaymo76

Wow! If that's true I am absolutely speechless. Wow! If that document is true Penn State football is dead.

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Yep. If all that is true, just give them the fucking death penalty then. All of that is pretty much the same damn thing, just without actually saying it's the death penalty.