MaddenMatrix: Walkthrough of NCAA Football 11 Dynasty at E3

[jaymo76]

I won't lie, I have fumbled a lot and threw a ton of ints in the demo. However, that being said, I really want to play with the sliders and see how well they work this year. I assume for the demo ints are at 50 and usually I turn them down to about 15-20 in the retail version(depending on the year). Until we can play with the sliders ourselves we won't have a great feel for the changes. Bring on June 13th. Man I am excited!!!

[Deuce]

What I still see as a problem how they can emulate the progression, drop back, and reads a QB goes thru before he throws. While in zone, DB's are still back pedaling while the QB is dropping back and use their vision to move towards rec's in their zone. In the game, the QB doesn't have to drop back or go thru any progression since we can still see all rec's at once. Since we, the user, can throw to any receiver at any time it will always be unrealistic. I'm not around real football anymore but I'm pretty sure every QB depending on what play it is goes thru a 1 step, 3 step, 5 step, or 7 step drop. They are reading the D as they drop back but DB's don't have to worry about a throw until the QB gets set (for the most part). On the game a throw can be made at any time leaving the DB's at a huge disadvantage. It would be interesting if each pass play had a number of 'steps' in the drop back and the QB could not throw until he got set. To me, its not realistic, to call 'verticals' and throw off your back foot after dropping back 3 steps.

I know I'm not explaining this well but something about the DB AI being wrong doesn't sit well with me. I agree that tuning needs to be done but I also think there are other factors that make it difficult to program the DB AI. IMO, they've got to make pressure, drop backs, and progressions in the game more difficult/real to make passing more realistic.

[HawkFan]

What I still see as a problem how they can emulate the progression, drop back, and reads a QB goes thru before he throws. While in zone, DB's are still back pedaling while the QB is dropping back and use their vision to move towards rec's in their zone. In the game, the QB doesn't have to drop back or go thru any progression since we can still see all rec's at once. Since we, the user, can throw to any receiver at any time it will always be unrealistic. I'm not around real football anymore but I'm pretty sure every QB depending on what play it is goes thru a 1 step, 3 step, 5 step, or 7 step drop. They are reading the D as they drop back but DB's don't have to worry about a throw until the QB gets set (for the most part). On the game a throw can be made at any time leaving the DB's at a huge disadvantage. It would be interesting if each pass play had a number of 'steps' in the drop back and the QB could not throw until he got set. To me, its not realistic, to call 'verticals' and throw off your back foot after dropping back 3 steps.

I know I'm not explaining this well but something about the DB AI being wrong doesn't sit well with me. I agree that tuning needs to be done but I also think there are other factors that make it difficult to program the DB AI. IMO, they've got to make pressure, drop backs, and progressions in the game more difficult/real to make passing more realistic.

What he said, if you watch the first play from scrimmage of the PSU/Bama the cpu has a wide open wr on a fly pattern and only a poorly thrown ball by the qb keeps it from being a 75+ yard touchdown.

[cdj]

Great post, Deuce. I'd also add that how do we differentiate between 'bad DB' programming and just a player messing up? Or do we expect the players in a video game to play perfect, but only ratings (and which ones) and human stick skills to establish a difference? Seems like a tough call.

[Deuce]

Great post, Deuce. I'd also add that how do we differentiate between 'bad DB' programming and just a player messing up? Or do we expect the players in a video game to play perfect, but only ratings (and which ones) and human stick skills to establish a difference? Seems like a tough call.

Exactly, and I really don't think there is a 'right' answer. It really is a tough call.

Its funny, b/c I never used the vision cone and obviously a lot of other people didn't either but maybe that was a good idea?? That's another disadvantage for the DB's...they can't read the QB's eyes.

[JeffHCross]

cdj, I've not seen any evidence that the CPU players do "mess up". It seems like the CPU's reaction to certain plays is consistent throughout the game. While they have added 'mistakes', like players slipping, there don't seem to be mental errors, at least in the passing game.

I don't want them to play perfectly, but I'd rather they play perfectly than consistently unimpressive. (Not to say NCAA 11 will be unimpressive since we don't have our hands on it yet. I just know which of the two I'd prefer).

I still miss NCAA 2004. While it wasn't difficult to pass on that game, I felt like 9 out of 10 times, the DBs were in the right spot. If you combine that with the ability to react to the throw that we have now, I think we'd have the best AI yet.

[morsdraconis]

Has it been confirmed that this build at E3 is the final build by EA?

[HawkFan]

Has it been confirmed that this build at E3 is the final build by EA?

That my friend is the million dollar question that no one seems to have a concrete answer to.

[AustinWolv]

Great post, Deuce. I'd also add that how do we differentiate between 'bad DB' programming and just a player messing up? Or do we expect the players in a video game to play perfect, but only ratings (and which ones) and human stick skills to establish a difference? Seems like a tough call.

It would be nice to see this built in as part of the awareness rating. An All-American CB (let's say 90+ AWR) simply won't make mistakes.....or perhaps only has a 5% chance of making a mistake. A freshman (let's say 65 AWR.....would have to see what the game puts recruits at) would have a 20% chance on any given play. And then scale the other players' AWR ratings in between those chances.
Since one doesn't know how many total plays will be run during the game, the programming basically rolls the dice on every play to see if that player does what his assignment is or messes up.....a blown coverage or just a step slow on a break.......and a better player with better awareness has less of a chance of messing up on that play.

Just thoughts.

[Jayrah]

I like the discussion fellas. This is $$$ stuff. Personal take, what I would like to see improved first are the defensive fundamentals. So this year they worked a ton on wr and offensive fundamentals (blocking ai, player cutting/running/sprinting/moving). I think there is a fundamental problem right now with defensive fundamentals that would take this game to an even higher level for next year. Hawk mentioned the PSU/Bama 1st play overthrow. Watch the DB, he doesn't turn his hips, chop his feet, slide step into the wr, any of that. He simply backpedals for X amount of steps, stops, and waits on the wr to make his next move. Then he flips and ratings kick in, which means while the wr's ratings are at max, the cb's just getting started, so he gets ultra toasted on the go. I've seen that problem throughout the builds, and I'm sure it's a problem in the final to at least some extent.

So the wishlist for gameplay next year, for me, is to specifically work on the defensive side of the ball now. I know that doesn't sell as well, but there needs to be a defensive upgrade to the system. The additions on offense will no doubt be a goal as well (wr awareness from madden, even more specified player types, specified qb additions from deuce's post, would be my strictly gameplay hopes there), but the defensive backfield in particular could be upgraded to make offense an even better experience. The pass rush everyone has a differing opinion on, but the db's and lb's do not react properly. And not only due to ai, but to movement. DB's need to move fluidly, between planting, chopping, rolling/flipping hips to run, and then again to stop and drive on a ball or wr, slide stepping and breaking down to make a play, it would make a world of difference from a visual and gameplay perspective.

Now you could run a db off for a comeback route, and anticipate based on the hips and speed of the db, or you would know he is cheating the route by continuing to backpedal and read. That type of stuff would make the game more enjoyable imo. And with locomotion, it will take more mocapping and such, but is totally doable. That's what I'd like to see anyway

[Rudy]

I thought they said the E3 build was pretty much the final build or days away from the gold copy.

[JeffHCross]

I thought they said the E3 build was pretty much the final build or days away from the gold copy.

A lot of people have said that, often based on conversations with Russ and Ben. But, based on my experience, a lot can happen in the final days. E3 was definitely around the same time as when NCAA would have gone gold. So while it's possible some of the Demo to Retail fixes weren't in the E3 copy, that's unlikely to me.

[Jayrah]

Yeah I think that was basically the final copy. But yet again, what was the difficulty setting? ya know? Could be a lot of 'missed' assignments based on difficulty. 2 1/2 weeks and we'll know for sure

[BlindRedBaron]

Yeah I think that was basically the final copy. But yet again, what was the difficulty setting? ya know? Could be a lot of 'missed' assignments based on difficulty. 2 1/2 weeks and we'll know for sure

I definitely think that was on "Varsity" difficulty. First, if you look at some of his run plays in the second video and compare those to types you'd run in the demo, there's NO WAY you'd get that kind of yardage on All-American, let alone Heisman. Not to mention, if you recall, Varsity is the default, and the way he was playing, he didn't seem like the player to change the difficulty and make him self look worse on the video or in front of the devs.

Just some food for thought... Not to say it'll be perfect, but I think difficulty level will play a big difference in whether the fixes are easily apparent in a video.

[irishfbfan1]

I think level of play, varsity, all american, heisman makes a very big difference in many of the questions that we have pertaining to the video. How one guy plays against another has tremendous bearing. Whether or not those things we have been wondering about were fixed before or after this game is also a huge question. I do see improvements, and we all know the game will not be perfect, but I think this game will rock. Just the feel of the game is much smoother.

And what about all the nice additions that we seem to often forget because of all the negative that fly's around. What about those things, we seem to forget about them. I am not saying the game is perfect, it never will be, and it never will be no matter who makes the game. To many variables that cannot be mesured by the computer. I do know one thing, in the past with this series we had just a football game. With NCAA 1,
WE HAVE A COLLEGE FOOTBALL GAME, and for that I am grateful!

[steelerfan]

Honestly, I haven't closely watched these videos. In fact I think I only watched parts of 2 of them.

But, the main question I'll be wanting to answer is whether or not it is only the CPU defense that is bad. If the answer is "yes", it is likely a result of skill level. If the answer is "no", it's bad AI. Playing on Varsity should make the HUM defense make fewer mistakes, not more. I'll see what I can tell from the vids. Is the CPU defense worse than the HUM? I think that will tell us if it's a low skill level or if it's gonna be ugly on all skill levels.

[Jayrah]

I do know one thing, in the past with this series we had just a football game. With NCAA 1,
WE HAVE A COLLEGE FOOTBALL GAME, and for that I am grateful!

Good point, this has been tailor-made for the college fan. I love it!

[cdj]

Yeah I think that was basically the final copy.

Some may depend on if there is a patch (or patches) in the works. Was it Madden (or NCAA) that had release day patches the last few years? It's probably close to the final version, but things can change somewhat in the final few builds/updates. Hopefully when the media start posting their vids we'll get a better feel as well as any word from EA on what they may do down the line, if there is a patch or something along those lines.

[rhombic21]

So what was that list of fixes from the demo to retail all about? Based on what I see in the video, none of the issues that I pointed out with the demo have been addressed.

[JBHuskers]

I think level of play, varsity, all american, heisman makes a very big difference in many of the questions that we have pertaining to the video. How one guy plays against another has tremendous bearing. Whether or not those things we have been wondering about were fixed before or after this game is also a huge question. I do see improvements, and we all know the game will not be perfect, but I think this game will rock. Just the feel of the game is much smoother.

And what about all the nice additions that we seem to often forget because of all the negative that fly's around. What about those things, we seem to forget about them. I am not saying the game is perfect, it never will be, and it never will be no matter who makes the game. To many variables that cannot be mesured by the computer. I do know one thing, in the past with this series we had just a football game. With NCAA 11,
WE HAVE A COLLEGE FOOTBALL GAME, and for that I am grateful!

Yep fully agree.