JeffHCross Project #1: How is OVR determined?

[Rudy]

Unfortunately, for NCAA Football, figuring out how the overall rating is calculated doesn't really help much in game.

This is true. But some things can help when setting your depth chart. Most people use overall to do this and the auto re-order uses this heavily as well. If you are running a pass happy offense, you might not want to use the overall rating for guards and centers since it gives greater weight to run blocking. Fullbacks are rated predominantly on their run blocking abilities. If you want a more well rounded FB you may not care for the overall rating. Some stuff may be interesting to see how it's weighted and what might be missing.

What about the height of the WR? I'll have to double check that tomorrow but height and weight don't affect rating at all. It would be nice if these were included - at least a little.

[JeffHCross]

Unfortunately, for NCAA Football, figuring out how the overall rating is calculated doesn't really help much in game.

Actually, it can. Like a couple years ago we figured out that Impact Blocking and the Run/Pass Blocking Strength/Footwork ratings weren't being factored into OVR. So that meant that if you had a guy low on PBK/RBK, he'd have a low OVR regardless of his specific blocking ratings. That changed how a lot of people looked at their offensive line depth chart.

Similarly, if I noticed that some attribute is not as much of a factor in OVR as I expect, I'm going to be more likely to ignore OVR.

What about the height of the WR? I'll have to double check that tomorrow but height and weight don't affect rating at all. It would be nice if these were included - at least a little.

I am 100% sure that Height and Weight don't factor into OVR itself at all. I think they may have some (though limited) influence on the type of player that is created -- in other words, they might influence SPD, AGI, etc -- but they don't have a direct influence on OVR at all.

[texacotea]

I am 100% sure that Height and Weight don't factor into OVR itself at all. I think they may have some (though limited) influence on the type of player that is created -- in other words, they might influence SPD, AGI, etc -- but they don't have a direct influence on OVR at all.

I dont see why it would honestly, Compare Jordan Shipley more of a possesion receiver who is the slant guy and who you look for in 3rd down situations. He was good and #1 @ Texas, but a totally different receiver than say Percy Harvin. Harvin could catch the slant but his agility and speed seperated him from Shipley. Both receivers were good and was great in the offense.

[morsdraconis]

Yeah, I'm not sure weight and height should have any effect on overall. Maybe for the defensive and offensive linemen, but, otherwise, I'm not sure how height or weight should really do much.

Though, I could see a RB that's 6'2" 235 being a better bruising RB simply because he's a big guy and is more mass to bring down and therefore more mass coming at a high speed results in harder to bring down.

Sadly, those type of things just aren't happening in NCAA Football at all.

[JeffHCross]

I can see height and weight being a factor in a system like Head Coach 09. In Head Coach 09, there was a Team Philosophies section where you were able to set what kind of player you wanted at each position. Like you could choose Field General for QB, Possession for WR, Power for HB -- and you had like 6 choices at each position, and you even had the ability to choose differently for WR #1 and WR #2. Then each player at that position on the depth chart would be evaluated based on your criteria, so their OVR would change.

In that case, I can see stuff like a Speed or Power back's rating being influenced by height/weight. Same for a WR to stretch the field (since they tend to be taller). But beyond that -- they shouldn't factor in. Height and Weight, if anything at all, should have an influence on a player's ratings, which then influence OVR.

Using Ohio State for an example ... we had Cameron Heyward (6-5, 295) playing 3 technique sometimes last year. This year our 1 (and probably sometimes 3) is Jonathan Hankins (6-3, 325). If they both theoretically had the exact same athletic ability -- same strength, same footwork, same ability to get off blocks -- is one better than the other because he's taller? Or fatter? I can see one being a better NT than the other because of sheer girth, but that doesn't mean his OVR should be better.

[texacotea]

Agreed, I think the way (we) recruit sometimes resemble this method. We want smaller shiftyer slot receivers as to where we want taller athletic receivers on the outside. Also with RB, I think is good to have 1 of each style back. Power/Speed. I know that whole deal kinda went off topic. its just what came to mind at 6:30am

[Rudy]

Just bumping this for requested info.

[JeffHCross]

The one thing you can't predict for a recruit is OVR. There's nothing in that chart that does that. That's where Rudy's formulas come in ... it's about OVR.

[Cipher 8]

I do have some questions still.

Are the only ratings you can determine by this table; speed rating, strength rating, break tackle rating, tackle rating and run block rating? Or is the unknown range when looking at a single recruits skills ratings that are measured by A+, B, C, D also taken into effect in the table. For example: A player with Break Tackle rating of B would have a Break Tackle anywhere between 84-87.

And if so;

Would you then be able to determine the overall rating of a prospect whom you're recruiting by using your table in combination with Rudy's formula and spreadsheet for overall by each position?


Also just to clarify and be able to do this I have yet one more question: What are considered 'skill players' on defense because you say SQT-S: is tackle for defense and break tackle for offense, this is skill players. while SQT-L: is tackle for defense and run block for offense, this is lineman and linebackers.

So what position's tackle rating are determined by SQT-S? Safety, Cornerback, Defensive Ends, Defensive Tackles? or just the two secondary positions and then is SQT-L only for linebackers? What about the D-Line then?

Basically is SQT-S only for Safeties and Cornerbacks tackle rating and SQT-L for Linebackers, DE and DT?

Sorry if I'm being a pain in the A..

EDIT: It appears you read my mind JeffHCross.

[Cipher 8]

I don't know if I should post it in here or in your thread but since we're already having the discussion now in here I'll just ask it here.

How does Rudy's formula work? Like I get it tells you what ratings determine the OVR but how do I go about doing that.

If I give you a made up recruit with numbers for each skill can you walk me through how I do the math or algorithm or whatever.

Do you just multiple the rating you get from your table with the decimal from his formula and add them all up then minus the constant? Or am I totally off base and don't know what the hell I'm talking about...

[JeffHCross]

Do you just multiple the rating you get from your table with the decimal from his formula and add them all up then minus the constant? Or am I totally off base and don't know what the hell I'm talking about...

Yes, it's just like a regular math/algebraic formula. Substitute and multiply.

Using it with recruits is going to be harder because it's a lot of guesswork with a recruit. For example, you don't necessarily know if a recruit's B+ is going to be a 91 or an 88. But the general principle still applies.

[Cipher 8]

I didn't notice this Simple and Simple Syntax thing when looking at the spreadsheet because it didn't show up???

It just showed the skills abbreviation title and the unstandardized numbers for each skill. That's all I saw until I copy pasted it here into a table.

So i was right you take the rating from your table and multiply it by the decimal but then what? What do you do with all the skills numbers from there to get the OVR, add them all up and minus the constant?

I'm just trying to find out how to get the overall and also find out each skills importance. Which gives me another question...

Isn't the Elusive rating kind of redundant? I mean what exactly does Elusive do, why does it matter?

You got Agility to determine how agile they are and Speed and Acceleration to determine how fast they are so those are the ratings that determine how scat backy they are, the smaller Barry Sanders type guys.

Break Tackle determines how much they can break out of tackles, which I assume means once a tackle animation starts that break tackle rating kicks in to determine if they can slip out or not, so what does Elusive do?

Does it affect those tackle animations from even starting or initiating? Like say the defender attempts to tackle and a HB with a high Elusive Rating would likely reject that tackle animation from even initiating and keep on running?

If that's the case wouldn't Elusive be better than Break Tackle?

Avoid the tackle animation from even starting rather than breaking free once it has started. Since it slows you down to battle out of a tackle where if the tackle just misses all together from the attempt you don't get slowed down...

Idk... I'm just trying to figure out what's the best things to look for in a recruit since afterall that's what this thread is for...right?

[JeffHCross]

I've been told that BTK is more of a factor in simulation, and not actual gameplay. For gameplay, TRK and ELU are the primary factors which determine whether or not a runner slips the tackle.

Keep in mind that Rudy's formula is just a "simple" regression ... I was looking to run a regression test on ratings, and he stepped up and did it ... he doesn't have any more insight into the rhyme or reason of ratings than any of us, and that includes me. That's one item of the game that EA has largely kept close to the vest. Though I'm reasonably certain that every rating has a purpose. Especially ones that were added this generation.

[Cipher 8]

Keep in mind that Rudy's formula is just a "simple" regression ... I was looking to run a regression test on ratings, and he stepped up and did it ... he doesn't have any more insight into the rhyme or reason of ratings than any of us, and that includes me. That's one item of the game that EA has largely kept close to the vest. Though I'm reasonably certain that every rating has a purpose. Especially ones that were added this generation.

I understand Rudy's formula is not official but I still don't understand how to do it. It's been a long time since I've had to do any math like that. I was just looking for a simple answer like for the Halfback take the Speed Rating and multiply it by x.xxx and do that for all the other ratings listed by Rudy for halfback and then add them up and minus the constant number to get the overall?

Is that how you do it? Am I in the ball park even?

[Cipher 8]

I've been told that BTK is more of a factor in simulation, and not actual gameplay. For gameplay, TRK and ELU are the primary factors which determine whether or not a runner slips the tackle.

Okay now I'm officially confused... The Break Tackle doesn't matter if your controlling the player? Well what if I don't hit the truck stick and a defender initiates a tackle but my guy breaks free? Is that because his Break Tackle rating or because of his Elusiveness rating. You would think it would be BTK.

So you're telling me Break Tackle is a NPC A.I. attribute such as Awareness and Ball Carrier Vision? Where it simply doesn't matter when your user controlling the player but comes into effect if, and only if, it's a computer controlled (opponent) player or like in Coach Mode where it simulates the play after you hike it only... regardless of user input?

Whereas;

The Elusiveness rating is basically Break Tackle for when the ball carrier is under user control? Basically a Break Tackle with user input?

[JeffHCross]

I was just looking for a simple answer like for the Halfback take the Speed Rating and multiply it by x.xxx and do that for all the other ratings listed by Rudy for halfback and then add them up and minus the constant number to get the overall?

Yes.

Okay now I'm officially confused... The Break Tackle doesn't matter if your controlling the player?

What I've been told is that BTK is used for simulations whereas Elusiveness and Trucking are used in gameplay. As in, one is used primarily during Super Sim and CPU Simulations, whereas the others are factors in determining dice rolls for breaking tackles. This may not be 100% absolute truth under all conditions, that's just what I've been told.

So you're telling me Break Tackle is a NPC A.I. attribute such as Awareness and Ball Carrier Vision?

No, see above. But to your point, Awareness isn't a totally NPC attribute either. It can have an effect (though somewhat limited) under user control as well. I've never been clear on what BCV does ... that might be an NPC/simulation rating.

[Cipher 8]

What I've been told is that BTK is used for simulations whereas Elusiveness and Trucking are used in gameplay. As in, one is used primarily during Super Sim and CPU Simulations, whereas the others are factors in determining dice rolls for breaking tackles. This may not be 100% absolute truth under all conditions, that's just what I've been told.

So you're telling me Break Tackle is a NPC A.I. attribute such as Awareness and Ball Carrier Vision?

No, see above. But to your point, Awareness isn't a totally NPC attribute either. It can have an effect (though somewhat limited) under user control as well. I've never been clear on what BCV does ... that might be an NPC/simulation rating.

Well that's what your basically telling me... Awareness and Ball Carrier Vision do not matter when you are controlling the player, how could they when you control where they move and you decide all of their actions, such as throw the ball or scramble. They can't be aware and act on it because you control them.

From what you say, based off what you heard, that's how Break Tackle works as well. It doesn't matter when your controlling the player.

The game defers to elusiveness to determine the chances of you breaking a tackle when you do no other player input like trucking for example.

So basically elusiveness is break tackle and vise versa but one is only for non player controlled and one is only for when your controlling the ball carrier.

Right?

[JeffHCross]

FYI, I had one of the mods move our discussion over here as it largely related to Rudy's spreadsheet rather than recruiting.

Stop thinking NPCs versus PCs, I think you're getting hung up on it. I'm talking larger picture. Simulations (Super Sim/CPU games/"Sim this game") versus actual played gameplay. What I've been told is that Break Tackle is used for simulations, while Elusiveness and Trucking are used during actual gameplay. Doesn't matter if the player is controlling them or not. Break Tackle doesn't matter during an actual game, based on what was posted on another forum some number of years ago.

Ball Carrier Vision I have zero knowledge of. I've been wondering what it does for years.

I believe Elusiveness is used for when you try to "elude" or "slip" a tackle (I believe it's a heavy component in why some QBs are able to slip out of sacks, for example), whereas Trucking is for power moves and going through a tackle. I think I've seen some truck moves performed without input on the truck stick, so it's not solely related to stick input.

[Cipher 8]

WTF? Where did the thread go? And why were some posts moved over here? it's like jumping into another conversation I bet people reading it are confused.

EDIT: I'm starting to get scared JeffHCross you keep reading my mind on what I'm going to post next.

[Cipher 8]

Elusiveness and Trucking are used during actual gameplay. Doesn't matter if the player is controlling them or not. Break Tackle doesn't matter during an actual game, based on what was posted on another forum some number of years ago.

...

Trucking is for power moves and going through a tackle. I think I've seen some truck moves performed without input on the truck stick, so it's not solely related to stick input.

Yeah this is what confused me because I don't do moves I just let my guys get tackled but I've seen em break free from a tackle without any input on my part at all. So when I am just running and I don't do any input but my guy breaks free from a tackle what specific rating did that?

It's not Break Tackle?
It's Trucking?

That makes absolutely no sense but I believe you. That's so dumb though, because then trucking is basically break tackle if you think about it. For when you're controlling the runner and you want your guy to shrug off tackles you want a RB with high trucking. It don't matter if he has 24 Break Tackle as long as he has 98 Trucking...

If your playing coach mode or wondering why a computer controlled player breaks tackles it's because he has a high Break Tackle not high Trucking, because it's non player controlled.

So confusing.

EDIT: I think we should do some tests on this to make sure... I believe you but I just want to make sure so I'm not ignoring Break Tackle and focusing on Trucking just to find out it is in fact Break Tackle that's the rating I'm looking for.