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    Varsity Dr Death's Avatar
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    The Definitive Guide To The Run & Shoot

    I realize it is still very early in the year and we have yet to see any game-play video, so who knows where this thread will go, but I have discovered a lot of people that don't know much about the Run & Shoot who try it out in the game and love it. That said, last year's game didn't feature a true R&S offense. Sure, it had some R&S plays - about 4 - but the majority of plays have been in EA Football games for years.

    I have no idea if they have expanded on the R&S this coming year or not, but I want to help those who are intrigued by this offense and want to learn more about it. In the video game here are the basic tools you will need to run this offense well:

    1: A good O-line - You need time on some routes as they develop and a bad line will leave you in 2nd and long too many times. It's also possible that DT's will still warp unrealistically to get to your QB, but right now, we don't know.

    2: YOU need to know how to read defenses prior to the snap AND after the snap. YOU also need to know where each WR will be on a given play. If you don't know how to read defenses you will not succeed w/ this offense. If you do - and trust me - so far in EA games, reading defenses is a piece of cake, then you should have no problems.

    3: WR's that can do two things: Catch the football first and foremost and - have the speed to make yards after they catch the ball.

    4: A great RB who can pass block when needed, run when needed and catch very well when needed. Most R&S teams have always had two types of backs on their team: A big, bruising back like Ironhead Heyward or Lorenzo White or Gary Brown and a smaller, quicker back like Erric Pegram or Allen Pinkett. Having one of each gives you many options.

    5: You need to know the routes your option receivers will be running based on what the D is showing before the snap. Rarely - and I mean RARELY does the CPU defense show one thing and do something else, so unlike real life where the D might show Cover 2 then switch to Cover 3 or show Man w/ a safety deep and then blitz out of that, typically what the CPU defense shows before the snap is true to what they are running.

    6: You need an accurate QB. Since the decision making will be on YOU, your QB's awareness need not be high, but in real life that part is a must.

    I'm going to share some videos of the offense being explained and shown so those who want can see it in action and get a feel for it. This first video is of Colt Brennan explaining a play to Desmond Howard. Then they show that same play being run against Boise State for a TD. The second clip is some game cut-ups of the NY/NJ Knights from 1991 in the WFL. You will see two different QB's: # 10, who has a slow release from center and a slow passing release and often throws off the wrong foot, and also # 14, Bob Gagliano, who is much quicker in both his release from center and getting the ball out. This isn't a highlight video; you will see good and bad. But when it's good, just look at how wide open the WR's are. And lastly, I'll include a Houston Oiler video where Warren Moon ran the R&S to near perfection.

    Feel free to ask any questions and as we get closer to the game being released, hopefully I'll be able to provide some insight and maybe give some of you some good options to running a very lethal offense.






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    Booster steelerfan's Avatar
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    While this offense isn't for me (frankly, I think it's glory days are long gone), I'll follow along and see if I can learn anything.

    Incidentally, the NY/NJ Knights played in the WLAF, not the WFL. The WFL played in 1974 and 1975.

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    Varsity Dr Death's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelerfan View Post
    While this offense isn't for me (frankly, I think it's glory days are long gone), I'll follow along and see if I can learn anything.

    Incidentally, the NY/NJ Knights played in the WLAF, not the WFL. The WFL played in 1974 and 1975.

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    Thanks for the clarification on the WLAF. I know/knew they were in the "World League" but just got my abbreviations wrong. I am curious though as to why you feel the "glory days" for the offense are long gone? As you know, I'm sure, June Jones took over at , a team that hadn't been to a bowl game since the Death Penalty, a period of 25 years, and in his 4 season's there {2008-2011} they've been to 3 straight bowl games and are 2-1 in those games, crushing a heavily favored team 45-10 and last year beating 28-6. After being able to recruit and change the attitude and many of the players, he's gone 23-17 at a school that hasn't won 23 games in God knows how many years.

    Anyway, as game play stuff is released we'll get more in-depth and hopefully show you some things that you and others can use in the game.

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    Heisman psusnoop's Avatar
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    I can always use help with my passing game. I'll be checking in on this thread too

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    Booster steelerfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Death View Post
    Thanks for the clarification on the WLAF. I know/knew they were in the "World League" but just got my abbreviations wrong. I am curious though as to why you feel the "glory days" for the offense are long gone? As you know, I'm sure, June Jones took over at , a team that hadn't been to a bowl game since the Death Penalty, a period of 25 years, and in his 4 season's there {2008-2011} they've been to 3 straight bowl games and are 2-1 in those games, crushing a heavily favored team 45-10 and last year beating 28-6. After being able to recruit and change the attitude and many of the players, he's gone 23-17 at a school that hasn't won 23 games in God knows how many years.

    Anyway, as game play stuff is released we'll get more in-depth and hopefully show you some things that you and others can use in the game.
    I understand, but that's SMU. I guess, for me, until someone wins a MNC or a Super Bowl with the R&S, I'll just look at it as a gimmick offense that a handful of coaches use at small schools to try and mask their size and talent deficiencies.

    That said, it doesn't, in any way, mean it's not valuable to have knowledge of it or that there is nothing for me to gain from it.

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    Heisman morsdraconis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelerfan View Post
    I understand, but that's SMU. I guess, for me, until someone wins a MNC or a Super Bowl with the R&S, I'll just look at it as a gimmick offense that a handful of coaches use at small schools to try and mask their size and talent deficiencies.

    That said, it doesn't, in any way, mean it's not valuable to have knowledge of it or that there is nothing for me to gain from it.

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    Tom Brady and the New England Patriots have won 3 Super Bowls using aspects of the Run & Shoot offense within their offensive system.

    The Run & Shoot offense is used in QUITE A FEW offensive systems in the NFL. Pretty sure Mike Martz and the Rams with the "Greatest Show on Turf" was an aspect of the Run & Shoot offense.

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    Hall of Fame ram29jackson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morsdraconis View Post
    Tom Brady and the New England Patriots have won 3 Super Bowls using aspects of the Run & Shoot offense within their offensive system.

    The Run & Shoot offense is used in QUITE A FEW offensive systems in the NFL. Pretty sure Mike Martz and the Rams with the "Greatest Show on Turf" was an aspect of the Run & Shoot offense.
    Don Coryell Says "Your welcome "

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    Quote Originally Posted by ram29jackson View Post
    Don Coryell Says "Your welcome "
    the run and shoot was created before the air coryell. the main differences between the two, are that the run and shoot mostly uses a 4 wr passing attack, whereas the air coryell (at least how the chargers ran it) was run out of anything - ace formations, i formations, 3 wr sets, 4 wide, anything. the AC features a stronger inside run game than the R&S. other than that, there isnt a whole lot different between the two. basically the air coryell is designed for teams set up with pro style offense personnel, whereas the run and shoot favors the spread offense personnel.

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    Varsity Dr Death's Avatar
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    To expand on this a bit, the first SB that the Pats won they were a fairly conservative team since Brady was an untested QB. But something few people probably know is that when Bill Belichick was at Cleveland in the early to mid 1990's, he had his team scrimmage against the Falcons a lot and he asked June Jones a ton of questions because he was very intrigued by the offense.

    The Patriots have used a lot of the R&S in their offense, particularly when they had the personnel to run it. Last year they went to a lot more 2 TE sets because of the talent they had.

    The Rams under Martz were always an Air Coryell offense. That has been Martz' offense since he first became an OC.

    And to provide an answer for Steelerfan, what you have to realize about this offense is this: It was created, in the form we know today, by Mouse Davis, who was coaching at a high school w/ under-sized kids who, quite simply, weren't as good as their competition. Davis got the idea of the offense from a book by a coach from the 1950's-60's named Tiger Ellison.

    The reason Mouse decided to use the offense was because of the fact that he didn't have the great talent that many of their opponents had, but this offense gave them a chance to win, which it has done everywhere it's been. In the NFL, only three teams used it - Detroit - Houston - Atlanta - and all went to the playoffs w/ it despite having not been playoff teams for years.

    I know that Jones likes to take over struggling schools and build them back up. But in doing so, he also provides himself w/ a tremendous challenge. Just once I would like to see his offense in the hands of a major school.

    One of the main misconceptions about the offense is that it "scores too quickly" and your own defense wears down because it is on the field too much. Whilst it is true that the offense can score quickly, it can also take lots of time off the clock, using short passes mixed w/ occasional runs to grind out long scoring drives.

    Another misconception is that you can't run effectively out of the offense. This is pure rubbish. In the NFL, during it's run, teams averaged between 4.6 and 5.1 per carry, w/ 4.1 being the lowest a team averaged. The 5.1 was of course aided by Barry Sanders, but even the other teams had great success running the football. In 1995, the Atlanta Falcons became the first team in NFL history to have a QB throw for over 4,000 yards, three WR's have over 1,000 yards in receptions and a RB rush for over 1,000 yards.

    At Jones had a back, Nate Ilaoa, that averaged 7.6 per carry two years in a row. {643 yards on 85 carries and 990 yards on 131 carries in 2005/06}

    Hopefully after the 17th and the Game Play video blog, I can find out more about the new game and how using this offense, either entirely, or just aspects of it, can help your team out and make the game a lot of fun, especially for those who are struggling w/ the passing game. From what I have heard there is something new this year in the passing game, what that is, I have no idea. But hopefully after the 17th we'll know more and can address more of this offense at that point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by morsdraconis View Post
    Tom Brady and the New England Patriots have won 3 Super Bowls using signals stolen from opposing defenses.
    Fixed.

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    The Bills' K-Gun offense had R&S principles in it, didn't it? Or did I just assume that? Of course, the Bills ran a TE (which June Jones would never do, from what I've heard), but I thought the scheme was still R&S in nature. Obviously the Oilers of that time were R&S, and if it wasn't for the Bills, they probably would have made their own SB run during that time period. (On that note, I'd love to be able to run a K-Gun offense in NCAA ... perhaps someday I'll figure out if any of the playbooks work for it).

    My primary problem with the R&S in NCAA 12 (or maybe it was NCAA 11, can't recall) is that the two Ace formations were essentially one formation of R&S and one formation of Air Raid / TTU. My offensive gameplans rely primarily on my opponent not being able to predict my playcall. Having the 2x2 and 3x1 formations with utterly different schematic principles ruined the book for me. Obviously, the shotgun running game has been so lackluster in this series that I honestly didn't even consider going SG full-time, which is really the only option I had.
    Last edited by JeffHCross; 04-04-2012 at 07:08 PM.
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    Varsity Dr Death's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffHCross View Post
    The Bills' K-Gun offense had R&S principles in it, didn't it? Or did I just assume that? Of course, the Bills ran a TE (which June Jones would never do, from what I've heard), but I thought the scheme was still R&S in nature. Obviously the Oilers of that time were R&S, and if it wasn't for the Bills, they probably would have made their own SB run during that time period. (On that note, I'd love to be able to run a K-Gun offense in NCAA ... perhaps someday I'll figure out if any of the playbooks work for it).

    My primary problem with the R&S in NCAA 12 (or maybe it was NCAA 11, can't recall) is that the two Ace formations were essentially one formation of R&S and one formation of Air Raid / TTU. My offensive gameplans rely primarily on my opponent not being able to predict my playcall. Having the 2x2 and 3x1 formations with utterly different schematic principles ruined the book for me. Obviously, the shotgun running game has been so lackluster in this series that I honestly didn't even consider going SG full-time, which is really the only option I had.
    Yes, Jeff, you are correct. The K-Gun - named after Jim Kelly - was created because Kelly went to the Bills after the USFL folded - thanks to ego-maniac Donald Trump - and Kelly had put up insane numbers running the R&S w/ the Gamblers in the USFL. He was very insistent that the Bills bring in his WR's from the Gamblers and run that offense. The Bills were reluctant, which is a shame, because one of Kelly's WR's in the USFL was Rickey Sanders who later starred for the Redskins and played for the Falcons in 1994.

    But the Bills decided to try and meet Kelly halfway - they went 3-wide w/ a TE. And June Jones has used the TE before, I have some 1994/95 Falcon games on DVD where they employ a TE. Anyway, the K-Gun wasn't a full-on R&S but from what I've read and heard Kelly say in interviews, there were aspects of it in the K-Gun.

    Another thing a lot of people don't know is that Bill Walsh - the West Coast Offense guru - implemented the Option Routes of the R&S into his offense. I believe it is in one of the America's Game segments where Dwight Clark, former 49er WR, talks about how having the ability to adjust their routes was so huge for their offense and they won Super Bowl XVI the first year they began doing that.

    And I agree w/ you that the offenses in the game are confusing for people that don't know any better. This is one of my biggest gripes when EA came out and proclaimed to have the R&S in the game. They have something like four true R&S plays and the rest are passing/running plays that have long been in EA football games. They're sending a message to young kids and that message is wrong.

    I know the Community Day chaps can't comment now, but if it's not addressed on the 17th I hope they can talk about this after that day, but there are two staples in both the R&S and the Air Raid that are either not in the game or the play is so broken it's not even worth trying to use.

    The play not in the game is the Shovel Pass. How they can have an Option play but not a Shovel Pass is beyond me, and the play that is seriously broken is the Bubble Screen. Last year I counted, over the course of two games, how many times I called that play or audibled to that play and how many times it was successful. By successful, I mean gaining at least 5 yards. The numbers? 1 out of 25. Yet every Saturday the Bubble Screen is run over and over and rarely, if ever, loses yards or just gets blown up like it did in last year's game. The frustrating thing was in last years demo, the Bubble worked fine. But the final product produced a horribly broken play. 1 in 25 are the kind of odds that only The House in Vegas would like.

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    Varsity Marlowe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Death View Post
    and the play that is seriously broken is the Bubble Screen. Last year I counted, over the course of two games, how many times I called that play or audibled to that play and how many times it was successful. By successful, I mean gaining at least 5 yards. The numbers? 1 out of 25. Yet every Saturday the Bubble Screen is run over and over and rarely, if ever, loses yards or just gets blown up like it did in last year's game. The frustrating thing was in last years demo, the Bubble worked fine. But the final product produced a horribly broken play. 1 in 25 are the kind of odds that only The House in Vegas would like.
    Yea it seems EA implemented the Greg Davis bubble screen. It works about the same % it did in real life.

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    Heisman baseballplyrmvp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlowe View Post
    Yea it seems EA implemented the Greg Davis bubble screen. It works about the same % it did in real life.
    its the blocking logic. receivers didnt get the ai assignment upgrade that the o-linemen got last year, so they're stuck with running to a certain area and then looking for someone to block, rather than running to a defender to block him.

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    Varsity Dr Death's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baseballplyrmvp View Post
    its the blocking logic. receivers didnt get the ai assignment upgrade that the o-linemen got last year, so they're stuck with running to a certain area and then looking for someone to block, rather than running to a defender to block him.
    It's more than just that, although what you're saying is true. But one, the QB delivers the ball in such a way that if you throw it normal, it forces the WR to get stuck in some animation where he turns his back to the defense catch the ball - gets stuck in that animation for roughly several seconds - and then gets creamed for a -1 loss - 0 yard gain - or a 1 yard gain.

    Two - if you throw the ball hard, ie; press down hard on the WR button - the ball goes upfield about 5-8 yards off target.

    It's such a simple play and I soon realized that calling it in the huddle was useless, because the D would always know what play I just called, so I turned it to an audible, calling it only against certain defenses; defenses that it should work very well against, like an all out blitz or Cover 3... but even then it would get blown up in one way or another.

    My one big hope is that EA is already working on the next, nex-gen game. Because there's just no way we can start from scratch again on even more powerful engines and have another near decade of what has taken place on this gen, where we were promised by the industry that things would be so much better.

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    Varsity Dr Death's Avatar
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    For anyone at EA who may be on this board, here is what the Bubble Screen should look like. This is from a high school team that uses the R&S offense and I only watched the first 1:36 of this video, but it's all here: Proper release from the QB, proper route running from the WR, weight and momentum matter for the defense as you see, several times, when a defender over-runs the receiver and also you see WR's that know how - and who - to block:


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    Anytime I see anything about the Air Raid/Run And Shoot -- I always think Dr. Death. Whats your saying? 5 Wide. Throw often.

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    Booster steelerfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Death View Post
    For anyone at EA who may be on this board, here is what the Bubble Screen should look like. This is from a high school team that uses the R&S offense and I only watched the first 1:36 of this video, but it's all here: Proper release from the QB, proper route running from the WR, weight and momentum matter for the defense as you see, several times, when a defender over-runs the receiver and also you see WR's that know how - and who - to block:
    Trust me. They know what it looks like. That's almost a bit insulting for you to think you're going to post a video and teach EA how the bubble screen should look.

    The problem with getting it to look/work right is programming (in this case, very specifically, limitations). I have not been able to make any of the trips to the studio this year, so I don't know if there is any change with the bubble screen, but I wasn't given the impression (last year) that this was an easy fix (if it can be done at all). The issue has nothing to do with them not knowing what the play looks like.

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    Varsity Dr Death's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelerfan View Post
    Trust me. They know what it looks like. That's almost a bit insulting for you to think you're going to post a video and teach EA how the bubble screen should look.

    The problem with getting it to look/work right is programming (in this case, very specifically, limitations). I have not been able to make any of the trips to the studio this year, so I don't know if there is any change with the bubble screen, but I wasn't given the impression (last year) that this was an easy fix (if it can be done at all). The issue has nothing to do with them not knowing what the play looks like.

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    Believe me Steelerfan, it's not meant as an insult. When a company makes a claim - in this case - to have a certain play in their game, and that play is, in my experience, very broken, then I have to wonder what is the problem? Did they only look at one or two Bubble Screens? I don't know. So providing a video w/ multiple shots of that play would, I feel, have to help.

    If the problem is programming and EA knows there is a limitation, then why put the play in the game at all? It's very frustrating when you run a very specific offense and yet that offense is rendered almost useless because certain staples of that offense are either not in the game or broken or - as Marlowe puts it - limited.

    The demo last year had the play working correctly. I even posted about it. It may have been on OS or here, or both, I can't recall, but I did comment on them getting the play right. Then - the game came out and the play was back to where it was the year before; which was a broken mess.

    So if it is programming, why did the demo work almost perfectly yet the final version had so many flaws???

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    Varsity Marlowe's Avatar
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    After watching those videos, I'm slightly puzzled. I've run the bubble in NCAA 12 with some success, mostly against zone and when there is no defender directly over the receiver. Yes the blocking sucks most days.

    Couple of things you might want to try: 1. cancel the QB drop back animation 2. Lead up on the stick and bullet the pass as soon as the animation cancels. If there's a bad snap you're fudged. If you're late canceling you're fudged. I've had these go for 5 and I've had them go for a td. I've also had the blocking break down and taken a loss.

    I don't know that you can run this every other down or with the same frequency you would if you are running this type of offense seeing as how it's current implementation is limited.

    I wouldn't necessarily call it broken. Limited is probably a better description. And yes I would agree that it needs to be tuned in the next version.

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