Why NCAA Football 11 Will Be More Fun Than Madden 11 by Kick 88

[cdj]

You can view the page at http://www.thegamingtailgate.com/for...Than-Madden-11

[texacotea]

So hes saying that we will eventually just be getting the same game just with different rosters in the near future?

I agree madden has been the focal point of EA football and have done somethings well, I havent played much madden since the "speed juke" days. But have been a diehard NCAA fan its nice to see that NCAA is getting the attention that Madden has. I think both games should be equal but different because of the difference they have IRL.

[JBHuskers]

So hes saying that we will eventually just be getting the same game just with different rosters in the near future?

I agree madden has been the focal point of EA football and have done somethings well, I havent played much madden since the "speed juke" days. But have been a diehard NCAA fan its nice to see that NCAA is getting the attention that Madden has. I think both games should be equal but different because of the difference they have IRL.

If you mean the same game between NCAA and Madden with different rosters.....that will not will be true. There is a shared core gameplay unit that works both games, but that is the only similarity. In the future, you should expect the opposite where the two games differ in a lot of ways.

[texacotea]

If you mean the same game between NCAA and Madden with different rosters.....that will not will be true. There is a shared core gameplay unit that works both games, but that is the only similarity. In the future, you should expect the opposite where the two games differ in a lot of ways.

No I understand that and dont expect "same game, just college teams" im saying is the series going to get to a point to where there is nothing new, or we cant upgrade anything else and we get NCAA 11 just with 12 beside it and updated rosters?

[cdj]

@tex - I don't think that will ever happen. There's always something bigger and better than can be added.

[xGRIDIRONxGURUx]

no way... offenses change like dirty underwear in college, fads come and go, plays vary so much, rivalries from old will live, but new ones in small ways are made all the time... there is such a different aspect to college football that it is seriously incapable of being "tapped out" to the point that we just get new players and ratings... especially with the new advancements in blocking and ai with the computer now making human-like moves while running the ball... stuff like that will continue to make this series more complex... all while the NFL continues as a whole to work themselves into a box...

"E"

[JBHuskers]

@tex - i don't think that will ever happen. There's always something bigger and better than can be added.

This here is true.

[JeffHCross]

Agreed with CDJ and JB. I mean, they still haven't finished re-incorporating all the features of the last-gen platform into NCAA 11. We're certainly not going to be running out of "new" features anytime soon.

Whether or not they're all worth an upgrade, that's a slightly different discussion. As we got late in the last generation I was upgrading every other year because the features didn't otherwise justify it.

Also, you can look at NHL 11 for a possible insight to the future. Reportedly they're incorporating a new physics engine this year. I don't know if "new physics" is just a fancy way of saying NHL's version of locomotion ... it very well could be just enhanced animations. But if Backbreaker is successful (or just simply outclasses EA's products in physics), we may see huge changes to the back end sometime in this generation. I would think they'd wait until the PS4, but we'll see.

[texacotea]

I agree with all, a whole lot has yet to be done with the college football. Just reading some of the blog made me think about it. I myself dont see me NOT buying the game anytime soon. This has been the only game that I buy year in and year out.

I dont know about backbreaker, it just look to much like a rag doll when someone gets hit. I tend to think about ragdoll kung fu when I see it.

[JeffHCross]

The problem I see with Backbreakers approach, and this may be why you think that, is that's there's no semblence of technique for the players. Every tackle seems to be either a flying tackle or a shoulder block, like the wrestling move. Both are fine for the video game world, but you don't see those on the field on Saturday or Sunday. That's the biggest thing I see right now. I'm hoping it's an instance of the trailer containing the "best hits" rather than displaying all of the possible varieties.

But I'm also sure EA could find a way to tighten that engine (or one like it) to a very impressive degree.

[Deuce]

I'm completely talking out of my rear end here since I'm not a programmer but football has to be one of the hardest games to program. With 22 'objects' on the screen at one time and each object having a seemingly infinite amount of possibilities*would*seem to be*impossible*to program...and that's just the gameplay. I think this is why there will always be room for improvement. I think people are going to see this with Backbreaker. Everyone was once talking about how awesome it will be b/c its about physics but I'm willing to bet that it'll be 3 or 4 years (if it makes it that long) before it becomes a quality game

[JeffHCross]

Football is extremely hard to program. There are actually masters thesis (theses?) on Football AI. Soccer, by comparison, I have found is much more simple. That said, once you incorporate the AI logic, whether it's 22 or 5 possibilities, it doesn't really matter. The logic takes care of itself.

Honestly I find war games much harder to think about from a programming perspective. Football, while difficult, is relatively straight forward in goal. You want to move the ball. And on a given play, you have a primary plan for moving said ball. How does one begin to program the AI for a game like Halo? I've read up on it, though considerably less than sports game AI, and I'm still flabbergasted.

[texacotea]

Football is extremely hard to program. There are actually masters thesis (theses?) on Football AI. Soccer, by comparison, I have found is much more simple. That said, once you incorporate the AI logic, whether it's 22 or 5 possibilities, it doesn't really matter. The logic takes care of itself.

Honestly I find war games much harder to think about from a programming perspective. Football, while difficult, is relatively straight forward in goal. You want to move the ball. And on a given play, you have a primary plan for moving said ball. How does one begin to program the AI for a game like Halo? I've read up on it, though considerably less than sports game AI, and I'm still flabbergasted.

Have anything that I could read about it? This is something I would like to learn more about.

[AustinWolv]

How does one begin to program the AI for a game like Halo?

Wouldn't it depend if your goal was a scripted movement type of game (like on games where you see the AI always go to the same waypoints/cover/run the same route) versus more open games where the AI likely has a logic tree to follow (if X happens, execute Y; if Z happens, execute A)?
The first one just tells that entity where to go and what to do when the waypoint is reached. The 2nd one is harder in that once the first branch is reach, there are more branches for a real AI experience, such that if the first branch was to hit cover and not shoot back or to move to a flank and suppress, then the 2nd branch is off of that, like shooting back after hitting the cover or staying in cover or after that flank to keep moving or stay in cover and keep suppressing.

Halo blows. I see programming in other games that makes more sense. Some of the stuff in Halo just seems to be making the AI run a route or pattern and then shoot if the player gets within a certain distance or trips a trigger point.

I'm not a game programmer, just thinking aloud. Although I know several in the industry here in the Austin area and could find out perhaps.

[JeffHCross]

Yeah, it would completely depend on the goal of the AI programming, Austin. I guess part of it is that, mentally, I have no idea where to begin on a game like Halo/CoD/Resistance. I can barely play shooters at a decent level, let alone conceptualize about them.

There are absolutely a lot of branches, and that's where AI gets really complicated.

[JeffHCross]

Have anything that I could read about it? This is something I would like to learn more about.

I'd start here: http://aigamedev.com/open/articles/f...hine-learning/ It'll give you a solid idea of the issues faced by a football AI programmer.

The book mentioned on that article, Mat Buckland's Programming Game AI by Example is a very good book for the programming inclined. At least I think it is. One of the more read books on my bookshelf.

[AustinWolv]

I can barely play shooters at a decent level, let alone conceptualize about them.

I play a decent amount of shooters and about the only thing that drives me nuts is when programmers will do the 'endless wave' method, basically spawning new opposition continuously until you hit a trigger point that stops the auto-spawn. I hate that because you resort to just sprinting up to a certain point to beat a hard area instead of it just really being smart and eliminating enemies. In other words, do something stupid to progress instead of doing stuff that one would really do under fire.

Anyway, rambling set aside....

[JeffHCross]

Likewise Austin, I hate the "you cannot progress past here until you've killed X enemies" points of games like God of War and Dante's Inferno. I much prefer mechanics like Ratchet & Clank (or any old-school platformer) where you didn't have to kill your enemies, but it would probably make progress easier.

[Rudy]

I think the one big thing NCAA has going for it over Madden is the huge variety of offenses you see. Most NFL teams are very similar which makes Madden get old. I agree that NCAA might have more control and hence a greater fun factor. Dynasty mode > Franchise mode.

[Solidice]

I defiantly prefer NCAA over Madden. I used to play Madden more until NCAA '98 when dynasty mode was started for this series. I've been a dynasty mode junky since.