Gap Control from the 3-3-5

I figured I would add this over here from my blog to get some X's and O's discussion started. Its been pretty dead here lately.

With the reintroduction of Formation Subs into the next installment of the NCAA football series. I’ve been recently intrigued with the 3-5-3 defense. Its been the only thing I’ve been researching lately, seeing how I’ve exhausted every outlet trying to find something on the 4-4 “G” defense.

The 3-5 (or 3-3 Stack) is like the 3-4 on steroids. It gives you the ability to leave your opponent clueless on where the pass rush is coming from with 3 down linemen. You s necessarily need a “Jack” Linebacker, as the 3-4 employs. I like to employ a the first string SS and the other a OLB/SS hybrid, or a larger Safety type. Same theory as the “Jack” linebacker that is a DE/OLB thats a pure pass rusher that can play either standing up or with a hand in the dirt.

When I used the 3-3-5 in 10 the hardest thing for me was to stop the run. Luckily I found some good run fits verses people who try to bring the power run game to try to rip the 3-man line.

Gaining and Maintaining Gap Control

Typically, a 3-front defense is a two gap type of scheme. What that means is you're required to read and react to close the gap to the playside. You have keys in the offense, most notably the offensive linemen in front of you. If a guard pulls, he's going to bring you to the football the majority of the time. If the offensive lineman pass sets, you're probably going to rush the QB (unless a blitz is on, then responsibility CAN change to an occupier role). The truth is, they have to make a read and react. The nose, for example, will attack the center and slide into a gap as a play develops. Some of the best noses don't have to engage and react, they can react at the snap because they see what's going on. They are responsible for both A Gaps technically. In the game the key to improving your gap control is using slant stunts with you Defensive Linemen mixed in with blitzing Linebacker or two.

One Zone Blitz/Run Fit that I love to run is the Crash 3 Play from the Stack alignment.
The adjustment for this play is simple. Only thing you need to do is slant the line to towards the TE and user the blitzing linebacker.

Linebacker Pressures

Gap Pressures: Your LB’s must press the Open Gaps, You must know which gap is going to be vulnerable and blitz that gap with a LB, You can manipulate this by successfully manually blitzing, once your opponent decides to start shifting the line to the side that you’re blitzing from pulling a bait and switch and throwing in some F@G defense into the game should throw them off a bit. You also have to know which gap will be open for the LB. Recruiting wise for this defense your Mike LB is the anchor of your defense and needs to be a Ball Hawk. The defensive line movements and stunts are also important when it comes to the 3-3/3-5’s gap pressures and control. There are only 4 basic DL movements are available: Spread, Pinch, Crash right and Crash left. Adding a blitzing LB will also do wonders for your gap control on your run fits.


http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m...pPressures.jpg

In sum, to play great run defense you must attack your assigned gap, shed blockers, pursue the ballcarrier, and make the tackle. This breakdown of gap pressures in the 3-3-5 should help you with understanding the plays that your calling and make you a better play caller.

I'm just not a believer in the 3-3-5 as a base defense. At least not for a big program that can recruit traditional front 7 guys. If you can't get the traditional guys to run a 3-4 or 4-3 then this is the next best thing but there is no reason for Michigan to be running the 3-3-5 imo. They still play a lot of power football in the Big 10 and I'd rather see a beefier guy in the box than a jacked up safety trying to play LB.

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Originally Posted by Rudy

I'm just not a believer in the 3-3-5 as a base defense. At least not for a big program that can recruit traditional front 7 guys. If you can't get the traditional guys to run a 3-4 or 4-3 then this is the next best thing but there is no reason for Michigan to be running the 3-3-5 imo. They still play a lot of power football in the Big 10 and I'd rather see a beefier guy in the box than a jacked up safety trying to play LB.

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I completely agree. There's a reason why the NFL doesn't use that formation and why only schools that can't seem to recruit normal front 7 players use it (I HATE that WVU is STILL using the damn defense because it's atrocious). Any team that truly knows how to run the ball and does it well will destroy that formation because the extra safety in the box either use to be incredibly good at tackling (not very likely) or they're going to run right over top of them.

okay... now that you guy succeeded in derailing the thread with opinion to the 3-3-5 in real life. How about we get the discussion going on the 3-3-5 in the game, please.

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Originally Posted by Rudy

I'm just not a believer in the 3-3-5 as a base defense. At least not for a big program that can recruit traditional front 7 guys. If you can't get the traditional guys to run a 3-4 or 4-3 then this is the next best thing but there is no reason for Michigan to be running the 3-3-5 imo. They still play a lot of power football in the Big 10 and I'd rather see a beefier guy in the box than a jacked up safety trying to play LB.

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There's no pool of traditional front seven guys left at Michigan, they're a MUCH smaller team now. The only linebackers who fit that mold (Mouton and Ezeh) are just poor players, there is no way around it. The next generation has the likes of Demons and Furman, and those guys fit a 3-3-5 mold. Playing Michigan State, Wisconsin, and Penn State in the near future is going to be a pain if Michigan doesnt start pulling in Brian-Rolle-type linebackers to fil this new 3-3-5 set.

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Originally Posted by Keontez

okay... now that you guy succeeded in derailing the thread with opinion to the 3-3-5 in real life. How about we get the discussion going on the 3-3-5 in the game, please.

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Well, the issue with that is it's hard to know what's going to be different, if anything in '11 so it's hard to know if anything from '10 will apply to '11 or not.

I'm hoping that the traditional 3-3-5 defense stops working so well at stopping the inside run but it's hard to know for sure what type of effect locomotion and better blocking is really going to have on that.

The idea of gap control for the 3-3-5 is great for real football, but for NCAA, and especially since they appear to have gotten rid of the loop out line hotroute, it's extremely difficult to set up something like that, especially since the defensive playbooks seem to truly lack any type of stunting or slanting by the defensive linemen without man coverage behind it.

I disagree...The loop out was and always will be horrible for any kind of gap control with 3 man fronts. But works great for pass rushing.

As for the 3-3-5 not being good vs would you say the same thing for the 3-4? all the 3-3-5 does is convert the SS to a hybrid OLB/SS and vice versa verses the OLB on the opposite side. And when substititued with a 3-5-3 package that WV used alot and BC Coach Frank Spazzani, the 3-3-5 turned into a 3-4 on steroids. The thing is to show different fronts and looks and thats why a lot of teams are leaving the 4-3 and going to the 3-4 is to confuse quarterbacks. You know a 4th or 5th pass rusher is coming but you dont know from where.

And in my experience, gap control from the 3-3-5 is easier to maintain with run certain run fits in the right situation. The one below is something I found from Blitzology and its already built into the game with the Crash 3 play.

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Originally Posted by Keontez

The key to stopping the run and maintaing gap control and using your Defensive Line stunts. By shifting the line towards the play can stuff runs between the tackles. One play that I use for my Zone Blitzes/Run Fits is the Crash 3 play from the Stack.

Say that the opponent comes out in your Basic 21 Personnel (2 RB 1 TE 2 WR). Shift the Line to the 3 Man surface (IE:Tight End side). Its probably best to user the Blitzing MLB just sto stuff anything coming through the line. If they try to take it off tackle, You'll have the SS out on the edge crashing in. And Usering the MLB will allow you to kill and fill any cutback lanes.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_rxIoHgU2BB...s400/tiger.jpg

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Lastly, I agree that the stunts are lacking in the defensive playbooks (Especially the 4-4 and 4-2, in those playbooks the stunts are key) but with 30front stunts you dont need to loop the DT over the DE going inside like you would in 40front defense.

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Originally Posted by Keontez

I disagree...The loop out was and always will be horrible for any kind of gap control with 3 man fronts. But works great for pass rushing.

As for the 3-3-5 not being good vs would you say the same thing for the 3-4? all the 3-3-5 does is convert the SS to a hybrid OLB/SS and vice versa verses the OLB on the opposite side. And when substititued with a 3-5-3 package that WV used alot and BC Coach Frank Spazzani, the 3-3-5 turned into a 3-4 on steroids. The thing is to show different fronts and looks and thats why a lot of teams are leaving the 4-3 and going to the 3-4 is to confuse quarterbacks. You know a 4th or 5th pass rusher is coming but you dont know from where.

And in my experience, gap control from the 3-3-5 is easier to maintain with run certain run fits in the right situation. The one below is something I found from Blitzology and its already built into the game with the Crash 3 play.



Lastly, I agree that the stunts are lacking in the defensive playbooks (Especially the 4-4 and 4-2, in those playbooks the stunts are key) but with 30front stunts you dont need to loop the DT over the DE going inside like you would in 40front defense.

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The above play is definitely a good play and I'll admit it's been since the beginning of '09 since I've even touched the 3-3-5 defense but even with the above play, it illustrates perfectly what I mean by it lacking against good power inside running. The 2 gap is wide open, even more so because the MLB is blitzing the 3 gap. Something as simple as an I-formation dive to either the 1 or 2 gap results in 3-5 yards per run, leaning more toward 4-5 yards.

And I would most definitely say the same thing about the 3-4 defense. It takes special alignments and usually bringing the safety down as well to stop any type of dive or blast play because of the cutback lanes more easily available against the 30 fronts. I've had nothing but trouble with the 3-4 defense against inside running. I end up having to basically sellout to stop it against a team worth a damn at running the ball.

the NT would draw a Double team. with the new zone blocking schemes allowing the DE to work over. But then again you would never know the play is coming. How many times have you played a game and knew what gaps were going to be open? But, I do understand what you're saying but you have to realize these are just suggestions to gain and maintain some kind of gap control. The premise of most two back/power running teams is to get more people to the point of attack to break the RB free, which is why its suggested that the play is ran to the 3 man surface.

Well a NT isn't always double teamed. Only elite ones can command AND HOLD a double team. Usually a guard just chips him on the way to the ILB and a good NT can help hold up the guard. There aren't that many elite NTs like Mt. Cody in college that can flat out dominate a short area. When the Dolphins lost Jason Ferguson last year, their backup didn't need double teaming and other teams could run on Miami. The NT is crucial in a three man line and if you don't have a good one it really hurts that defense.

Cool, Im just trying to contribute to with some X's and O's stuff to get this board going.... thanks for your input.

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Originally Posted by Keontez

Cool, Im just trying to contribute to with some X's and O's stuff to get this board going.... thanks for your input.

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In your opinion, what is the most important attribute for a solid 3 tech NT? Is brute strength necessary or is block shedding more important? Or, does play recognition and awareness hold the key to being dominant?

I've been experimenting in recruiting by taking guys with more play recognition and awareness and less incredible attributes at strength or speed but I haven't gotten a chance to really compare them or anything. I know for DBs, it seems like the better they are are reading the play and being aware of wear it's going, the less important speed and acceleration are, but I'm sure that's going to change with Locomotion and such.

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Originally Posted by Keontez

Cool, Im just trying to contribute to with some X's and O's stuff to get this board going.... thanks for your input.

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I just brought that up because I've seen guys talk about the 3-4 on OS and complain about the lack of double teaming in the past and it's bugged me because these guys seem to think that ANY player playing the NT spot gets double-teamed and for the entire duration of the play. I don't think EA's logic would be smart enough to determine how long a guard should help on a double team based on matchups but that would be cool to see blocking schemes adapt for this. That includes chipping elite DEs on the pass rush.

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Originally Posted by morsdraconis

In your opinion, what is the most important attribute for a solid 3 tech NT? Is brute strength necessary or is block shedding more important? Or, does play recognition and awareness hold the key to being dominant?

I've been experimenting in recruiting by taking guys with more play recognition and awareness and less incredible attributes at strength or speed but I haven't gotten a chance to really compare them or anything. I know for DBs, it seems like the better they are are reading the play and being aware of wear it's going, the less important speed and acceleration are, but I'm sure that's going to change with Locomotion and such.

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In recruiting I get traditional 30 front guys. The 280-300+ lbs DT/NT I look for Strength, Block Shedding and Awareness (even in my 4-2-5 Defense, I recruit at least 1 true NT, who I always play at the 1tq, and the other DT, who I like to play at the 3tq, is usually around 275. For him I look for at least high 70s and low 80s speed. But, the smaller DT types is who I look for in recruiting 30 front defenses.

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Originally Posted by Rudy

I just brought that up because I've seen guys talk about the 3-4 on OS and complain about the lack of double teaming in the past and it's bugged me because these guys seem to think that ANY player playing the NT spot gets double-teamed and for the entire duration of the play. I don't think EA's logic would be smart enough to determine how long a guard should help on a double team based on matchups but that would be cool to see blocking schemes adapt for this. That includes chipping elite DEs on the pass rush.

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He shouldnt be blocked the entire duration, but thats something that we'll have to wait til either the demo or the game comes out to determine.

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Originally Posted by Keontez

Cool, Im just trying to contribute to with some X's and O's stuff to get this board going.... thanks for your input.

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It is a good thread, thanks.

I am basically a 3-4 guy but finding myself using more of the STACK with NCAA. 3-4 in MADDEN, 3-3-5 stack for the college game. One of the reasons I like the stack is because of its flexibility, both for run and for the pass. Really comes into play when you are able to recruit like KEONTEZ has showed the people to fit this particular style of defensive play. Many people do not understand this defenses effectiveness vs the run, especially spread style runs. The BEAR formation is an absolute favorite of mine when dealing with teams who like to try to slam the ball down your throat. Also, SPLIT, which is basically the same as ODD SPLIT for you madden NY JETS Book users can give you some extreme heat up the middle, which is Kind of 4-4 split look.
This is a great way to get double A Gap heat and then play containwith your OLB to the side you think they are going to run, while playing spy on the backside with your other OLB. This is a very common theme in the MADDEN scene to try to stop runs like off tackle etc...and I see it coming to the college game as well.

The Blitz packages are flat out devious in this set, and playing with 2 SS'S in a sense gives you a chance to show blitz on one side while sending heat on the other. Plays like STORM RED, ZONE BLITZ, SS ZONE BLITZ are all great blitzes that can be mixed in with all the various fronts.

Coverage is outstanding whether its COV 3 Contain, Cov 2 Tampa, or all the variations of man. With all the spread offenses, all the zone reading, all the multiple wr sets including empty, versatility, flexibility are key componenets in this years game, not to mention all these teams going NO HUDDLE. The 3-3-5 has all the capability to handle every set the spread brings to the table and whether you are pinning your ears back, or in full coverage, you can best believe that the 3-3-5 will give you what you need. It has been very good to me.

The ability to press and create heat with this defense from all over is pretty nice in the game so far. However, I'll need to try changing out one of the DEs that the game sticks there for a heavier guy against the run, as well as adjust what LBs the game plugged in via the formation subs which should make this defense less susceptible to being gutted up the middle. The default depth chart is not optimized for that on the DL, LB and SS guys.

Going to the Bear or split look in this set works better to stop the inside running, but seems to leave deeper routes open. The nice thing about stack is being able to play 3 WR sets out of your base defense and not be purely overpowered in getting a LB on a slot like a 4-3 likely can, while still having your base in place in case the offense runs it.

I suggest using smaller DTs in 30front defenses

Are you talking DT or NT?

I think we're talking about the same thing, based on what you mentioned above.

I get a true NT 300+ lbs... Brusier for the middle. and Larger DT type Defensive Ends.

Yep, we're on the same page. Good deal.
I tried out formation subs in some Play Now games on Heisman setting up my D this way and got noticeably better results defending the run.