Passing progressions ?

I'm wanting to know, maybe from some real coaches or just people that would KNOW, how should I go about making my reads? I'm talking in terms of offensive passing of course.

Currently what I do I attempt to read pre-snap man vs zone then if I can cover 1, 2, 3, etc...Then after the ball is snapped I watch the safties, then if I'm not running for my life and I have time I watch the CBs then the LBs....

My question is how should I read my routes? Do you look for the short ones first? Then the deep route? Or do you look for the "orange route" first? Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question, but I'm hoping the coaches out there might give me some idea of how you're "supposed" to do it.

I know on a simplier play, i.e. WR Screen it's pretty easy, but what about something like a SMASH play say from Shotgun Trips in the SMU playbook? There are multiple routes being run there all with different "throw points" How would one suggest I go about attacking the defense with a play like this?

Would it be something like, read the defense, then figure out which of those routes "should be" open and watch for them to develop? Or do you do something more like WR 1, 2, 3, ?

I guess the terminology I'm looking for is how do you make your receiver progressions?

It seems like I've read somewhere about a "passing tree" not sure if I need to look in the directin for the answer to my question.

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by gigemaggs99

My question is how should I read my routes? Do you look for the short ones first? Then the deep route? Or do you look for the "orange route" first? Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question, but I'm hoping the coaches out there might give me some idea of how you're "supposed" to do it.

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You're actually not far off, because the reads are different for every play. Every pass play has a "primary" read, which is what the game denotes by the orange routes. However, from what I've seen these Orange Routes don't always match what a real coach would be using for the primary route.

Personally, while I'm read the play pre-snap, I look for any advantages / disadvantages that I might have in terms of matchups or open receivers. I always know who my first read is going to be, through practice with the play. Basically I just go from there. Wish I could tell you more, but it's nothing I consciously do at this point.

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Originally Posted by gigemaggs99

Would it be something like, read the defense, then figure out which of those routes "should be" open and watch for them to develop? Or do you do something more like WR 1, 2, 3, ?

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Both, depending on the play.

For example, the classic progression for a Shallow Cross (known as Inside Cross and Y Shallow Cross in the game) is to read the Dig route (the in route that goes 5-10 yards deep) to see if he's open as soon as the ball is snapped, then look at the Shallow Crossing route and see if the linebacker jumps him coming across the middle. If the backer jumps the cross, the Dig will be open. If the backer jumps the Dig, the cross will be open.

Very good thank you sir. From looking around (all over the place) I see a lot of it comes from PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE. I think my plan now is to take my PB to the practice field and start with a handful of plays. Learn them inside and out and how they apply to different defensive looks...then as the weeks progress in my offline dynasty add a few plays each week until I get to know a little more each week...

I kinda figure this is how they would do it in real life. I always hear them say things like, well this new kid, or backup has a MUCH smaller PB package than the senior starter or NFL veteran...so I'm like that new kid. :-)

FWIW, a "passing tree" is a numerical system used for playcalling. The different routes are assigned numbers and, when all of the routes are shown together, they resemble a tree. A basic explanation is in the link below.

http://www.usafootball.com/resource-...de/?id=17&p=40

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Originally Posted by steelerfan

FWIW, a "passing tree" is a numerical system used for playcalling. The different routes are assigned numbers and, when all of the routes are shown together, they resemble a tree. A basic explanation is in the link below.

http://www.usafootball.com/resource-...de/?id=17&p=40

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SWEET! I'm learning A LOT! :-)

I'm going to agree with the majority here. Always start with your primary read and you should be able to get a good read if it's going to be open pre-snap and definitely on snap and then progress down your reads. Try to have your different routes in order so you know which read you are going to 2nd, 3rd etc. Also depending on the play you might not always need to read the safety first.

Probably the most important thing is to know exactly what your top 3 reads and your outlet are. So you can instinctively hit them.

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Originally Posted by psuexv

Probably the most important thing is to know exactly what your top 3 reads and your outlet are. So you can instinctively hit them.

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Which comes from practice, practice, practice.

Also, a huge help for me, gigem, is the more I play the more I notice that I'm not even looking at the pass rush. If you find yourself staring at the rushers as they get to you, then you're not comfortable. If you're not comfortable, you won't make the right reads.

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Originally Posted by JeffHCross

Which comes from practice, practice, practice.

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Really? Kind of thought that was a given.

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Originally Posted by JeffHCross

Also, a huge help for me, gigem, is the more I play the more I notice that I'm not even looking at the pass rush. If you find yourself staring at the rushers as they get to you, then you're not comfortable. If you're not comfortable, you won't make the right reads.

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Couldn't agree more, I take a quick look on the snap to see where the and if there is a blitz and then don't look at the rush the rest of the drop.

Use your peripherals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibVPSPyBaFI

Could not have said use your peripherals any better. Yeah you just have to practice this over and over again. Read the defense before the snap is the linebacker, safety or others cheating up. Are they playing man, I do not put guys in motion a lot but that will tell you right away if they are in man. When you snap the ball watch the defense for the first second and a half or so, while watching your top read to see if it will develop.

Thing is I know you are trying to run the Run and Shoot and in the Shoot there is no progressions. Everything is done post snap as you and the receivers are reading coverages. Best thing you could do is go into practice mode and learn plays run them a couple hundred times watch the receivers run their routes and against what coverages. This is why the Run and Shoot is so difficult to defend there is no audibling pre snap. Quick reads and the ball needs to come out if you are holding it more then 5 seconds you got issues as you only got 5 OL blocking.

The thing that can kill this is a team that is way more athletic then you, they can cover 0 bump and run the receivers and blitz 7. This creates major issues just look at Hawaii v. Georgia, this was a prime example of what a team that can bump the receivers can do against the RnS.

GigEm, glance over this blog. It might help you a little, though it's obviously designed for real coaching: http://smartfootball.com/quarterback...pass-defenders

Thank you everyone for the great help and information.

One question I do have now...and yes I understand the quick passing game is my "run game" in the RnS...but what about REAL running plays. It's called the RUN and Shoot so I was thinking you do RUN the ball no? I don't run the ball much in this offense. I have those quick hitters, i.e. slot receiver running quick outs or hitches and hope to pick up YAC.

Any suggestions on actual RUNNING plays from the RUN n Shoot?

Thanks.

By the way I'm using SMU's PB

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Originally Posted by gigemaggs99

Thank you everyone for the great help and information.

One question I do have now...and yes I understand the quick passing game is my "run game" in the RnS...but what about REAL running plays. It's called the RUN and Shoot so I was thinking you do RUN the ball no? I don't run the ball much in this offense. I have those quick hitters, i.e. slot receiver running quick outs or hitches and hope to pick up YAC.

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basic r&s principle- 5 or less in the box, run the ball.

unfortunately there's not a lot of running plays in each formation, but the draws will work pretty effectively when you have success throwing the ball.

i use the shotgun wing trips formation as my running-only formation (hawaii pb but smu has it too). i'll formation sub an extra lineman in for the te and a scrambling qb in. speed option will probably pick up the most average yards/attempt, but quick base is awesome against non-blitzing dime defenses.
y-trips hb weak is similar to wing trips too. hb draw works great against nickel man coverage plays. hb base is hit or miss depending on where the lb's line up. these are probably the two best running shotgun formations since they have the te in there blocking.

if you want to run with 4 receivers on the field, i'd recommend the trips formations with the rb on the strongside and pick hb off tackle. against dime man coverage, you'll have a wide open field to run into (minimum 5 yard gain). if you see a roaming corner or safety on the weakside (where the run is going to), check down to a quick pass.

You know what I do not like the fact that SMU has never used a formation with a TE nor have they ever recruited a tight end under June Jones yet EA puts formations with Tight Ends in their playbook.

Giges,
I have had success with HB sweep plays but instead of taking them outside I cut them up field get 3 or 4 yards maybe more based on what the defense shows. I like setting slide protection to slide to the direction of the run unless I run a draw then I set to aggressive.

If you will be on PS3 around 10 am est we can lab this.

Because of the absolutely broken shotgun running game this year, I didn't find running from the RnS to be at all effective. In real life, Zach Line was a very effective runner. It just doesn't translate into the game.

Ok, thank you gents for the replies. I've been trying to work on the SG run game, seems like when I run the TCU PB I can get the read option to work, but when I run the read option from the SMU PB it doesn't work too tell. If the DE stays in to hammer my QB I hand it off and my HB gets tackled at the LOS. If the DE goes after my HB I keep it and try and run w/ my QB, he gets caught from behind...perhaps it has something to do with players (QB) speed too.

I was just looking for some RUN in the run n shoot.

I also agree with the Zach Line statement, he was a beast this year for SMU.

Whiteponey, sorry about missing the lab session, my son is sick was up all night with him, now my wife has it, so I'm playing Dr. Dad on top of my normal Mr. Mom. Will try and meet up again.

Gus

No worries Gigs we can meet up some other time

Although this topic is a month or so old, it pertains to the Run & Shoot, which is something I know very well. One thing I can tell you Gigem is that the Run & Shoot in NCAA 11 is not the true Run & Shoot. The true R&S has option routes for WR's on every play. The playbook in the game only has a handful of true R&S plays. That doesn't mean you can't use SMU or Hawaii's playbooks, just understand that those are not true R&S offenses.

Some helpful tips on the passing game...

I currently use UTEP's playbook because it has 5- wide both under center and in the gun, but the same principles will apply to the SMU playbook. Let's say you call 60 Go and you are on the left hash, w/ the Trips WR's on the right, or open side of the field. My first read is the inside slot WR who runs the quick out. My second read is the next WR who has an option of either running a hook, a post or a go route. Since you are on PS3 and I am on XBox, I will diagram this using the lettering that the R&S actually uses, instead of A, B or Triangle or Square...

60 GO:

X..........................................LT...LG ...C...RG...RT.................................... .............................Z
.................................................. ..............................W..................Y

.................................................. ......QB...SB

Some R&S teams call the 4th WR other things, but in the original Mouse Davis/June Jones playbooks he is called W. Also, the RB in the R&S is SB, which stands for Super Back. So... W runs the quick out and Y runs the option route. Z runs a wheel route up the sideline and X runs a curl route at about 8-10 yards.

Since you have 3 WR's on one side of the field, that is where you look first. W... then Y... then Z... X, on this play, would be your last read. These reads need to happen quickly though, because the openings, especially for Y and Z won't be there long.

One very helpful hint is motioning a WR. This will tell you Man or Zone. Sadly, in NCAA 11, if you motion a guy, he has to complete the motion before you can return him to his original spot. It used to be you could start a guy in motion and return him at any time, just as the R&S did/does in real life.

Get to the line at about the :18 second mark and motion W to the left. You want to motion him because he has the shortest distance to motion to and back from. Now, after having sent him in motion and returned him to his original spot, you'll have about :09 on the clock and you will know if it's Man or Zone.

If it's Man, W can be gold for either 3-4 yards or as many as 60 or 70. If it's Cover 2, Y on the streak is your go-to guy, unless the SS stays closer to home, in which case you would hit Z on the wheel route.

One note on the Z... in the Mouse Davis playbook, the Z runs the route exactly as it is in the game, and Mouse calls it a Wheel Route. So even though it isn't what you may be accustomed to in a typical wheel route, this is what it's called on this play. You could also think of it as a Fade Route, but I'll go w/ what Mouse calls it.

This play is also a great blitz beater and W is the hot read in a blitz. One other note on W... in the true R&S he actually takes a quick step in, so in Man the LB or CB covering him believes he is running inside, then he quickly hits to the out route... giving himself a split second to gain distance between himself and the man covering him. In the game, they just have him running the quick out.

In the game 61 X Choice is another good play to get down as you have two WR's w/ option routes... in this case X and Y. As you have already figured out, practice is what will help you the most. And here are some helpful practice tips. In practice mode call the Defense... say Cover 2... so you know what the D is in and then call your play and run it over and over until you have it down pat against Cover 2. Then, go to Cover 3 and run the same play over and over. Do this w/ all defenses. This will get you used to those defenses and also the timing. Use Motion too, even though you know the D, see what, if any, movement the D gives when motioning against a particular D.

Running the ball... this may come as a surprise to many since the Run & Shoot was unjustly criticized in the NFL as not being a good running offense. In the years it was in the NFL the teams running the R&S had the league's highest average yards per carry. Detroit, Atlanta and Houston all averaged 4.6 or better w/ Houston's worst year in the 4.1 range. Detroit, w/ Barry Sanders, averaged over 5.1 per carry.

You can run in this game, and here's how I do it. Every play I call in the huddle is a pass play. I have one running play as an audible. It is in Ace Spread - HB Dive. The QB is under center. I will audible to this when I see 4 or 5 in the box IF my pass play appears to be covered. Using this philosophy, when I used SMU's offense my RB averaged over 6.3 per carry for the season.

Is it cheese? Perhaps. But EA has the shot-gun running game so poorly implemented that I see it as justice. It also is the only way to effectively run in the R&S in the game.

If you work on these few things... and believe me... it can take some time... but soon you will understand this offense and your ability to read defenses will grow as well. And don't forget to Motion your WR... this will tell you instantly what the D is doing. Very key, that.

Good luck and if you have any questions, feel free to PM me.

LOVE that you're over here Dr Death! You're knowledge of the R&S has helped me GREATLY in my passing game from over at Utopia (and I don't even run the R&S).

And your setup for running the ball absolutely isn't cheese. It's going with a play that you know works and part of your offense is an under center offense anyway so it's not THAT big of a deal.

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Originally Posted by Dr Death

One very helpful hint is motioning a WR. This will tell you Man or Zone. Sadly, in NCAA 11, if you motion a guy, he has to complete the motion before you can return him to his original spot. It used to be you could start a guy in motion and return him at any time, just as the R&S did/does in real life.

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I have found a work around to this by using the audible button then cancel the audible. After you motion a player on one side and get the defender to tell you if he is in man or zone, simply hit the audible to another play button (square on ps3 )and then cancel the audible (L2 on ps3), your player will immediately return to his starting spot. This is very helpful when motioning a player that is lined up way on the other side like in the Ace Big formation. Its not ideal but it does save you a lot of time compared to just letting the motion completely play out and then sending them back.

Nice Wolverine... I will try this out! And thanks Morsdraconis... I appreciate it!

Thanks for the information, sorry for the delay in posting, have been out of the NCAA loop, then new baby came 2 weeks ago so I've been busy with him. Picked up NCAA 12 so now I'm ready to buckle my chin strap and get back into College Football.

SMU has the Pistol this year so I'm excited to learn some more effective running plays.

Towards the end of my NCAA 11 time I was getting better at passing the ball, good enough in fact that some of my ODs where complaining about my scores vs the cpu. I've never been in this boat so it was strange. All I was doing was quick reads and high percentage passes. The problem is I was able to move the ball quickly and didn't eat much clock with few incompletions. I was told by other members that my passing stats were too high (maybe they didn't like what Colt did at Hawaii a few years back, who knows)....the main problem I had was I didn't have a solid running game to chew clock at the end when I was up. Hopefully the addition of the Pistol will help in that area.

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Originally Posted by gigemaggs99

the main problem I had was I didn't have a solid running game to chew clock at the end when I was up. Hopefully the addition of the Pistol will help in that area.

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Just want to say something about this philosophy... but before I do you must understand that the two coaches who have had the greatest influence on me are June Jones and Mike Leach. I am particularly drawn to Leach because he thinks "outside the box." Now... as to what you stated above, please understand that you don't have to run the ball to "chew clock." You can chew clock w/ a short passing game.

Yesterday I was playing a bunch of different games just to check out various teams, and I was only playing one quarter. One game was :Arizona_State: {CPU} against :Arizona: {Me}. I took the opening kickoff and intentionally ran the guy out of bounds at the 4 yard line. I then went on a 19 play, 96 yard drive that took 8:55 off the clock. {I play 10 minute quarters}

So... just know you can chew clock passing the ball. Know your receivers routes... all 5 of them... and read the defense... I was in 5-Wide the entire 19 play drive and all 19 plays were passing plays. The :Arizona: QB was 17 of 19... and this was on Heisman level.

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Originally Posted by Dr Death

Just want to say something about this philosophy... but before I do you must understand that the two coaches who have had the greatest influence on me are June Jones and Mike Leach. I am particularly drawn to Leach because he thinks "outside the box." Now... as to what you stated above, please understand that you don't have to run the ball to "chew clock." You can chew clock w/ a short passing game.

Yesterday I was playing a bunch of different games just to check out various teams, and I was only playing one quarter. One game was :Arizona_State: {CPU} against :Arizona: {Me}. I took the opening kickoff and intentionally ran the guy out of bounds at the 4 yard line. I then went on a 19 play, 96 yard drive that took 8:55 off the clock. {I play 10 minute quarters}

So... just know you can chew clock passing the ball. Know your receivers routes... all 5 of them... and read the defense... I was in 5-Wide the entire 19 play drive and all 19 plays were passing plays. The :Arizona: QB was 17 of 19... and this was on Heisman level.

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I agree, I enjoy the RUN N Shoot and Air Raid teams in real life too, even though I'm an AGGIE I really like Mike Leach, I think it was a big mistake what texas tech did, but in the end it came down to money, they didn't want to pay his bonus...

I agree with the short passing game...I guess what I need to do is play in my offline dynasties. The problem came when I played in Online Dynasties last year, no here at TGT, they didn't have a problem with my play style. It was in other ODs, they would complain that my passing stats were "too high" my completion percentage was too high and I had WAY too many passes attempts compared to rushing attempts.

So I was trying to please the masses and wanted a rushing game to even the stats out in the 3rd and 4th quarter.

I agree 100% about the shorting passing game, it works great with the RNS PB.

Now that I have kid #2 here and my gaming time will be less, I'm only going to join ODs that enjoy playing the game. Not knit-picking things. I figure it should be more like real life, Houston for example, in real life they run the Air Raid, they have very few rushing attempts, but since they pass the ball SO much the rushing game works, when they do run. However at the end of the game when they score a bunch of points and 3 QBs have had PT you never hear people in real life complaining about how few rushing attempts they had vs their passing stats. I think the fix for me is, to find some good honest ODs and enjoy the game.

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Originally Posted by gigemaggs99

I think the fix for me is, to find some good honest ODs and enjoy the game.

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Yeah, don't get caught up in people and their bitching. Football is a funny game... there are purists that believe you have to establish the run and you should always do certain things, certain ways. Jones and Leach thumb their nose at that old philosophy and the game is much better for guys like them.

As long as you're playing straight and not cheesing, who gives a flying #### if you have 60 pass attempts and 5 rushing attempts? Would those guys bitch if you were playing like Barry Switzer's Sooners and had 60 rushing attempts and only 5 pass attempts?

Do what you want and have fun. Screw those who don't get it!

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Originally Posted by Dr Death

Yeah, don't get caught up in people and their bitching. Football is a funny game... there are purists that believe you have to establish the run and you should always do certain things, certain ways. Jones and Leach thumb their nose at that old philosophy and the game is much better for guys like them.

As long as you're playing straight and not cheesing, who gives a flying #### if you have 60 pass attempts and 5 rushing attempts? Would those guys bitch if you were playing like Barry Switzer's Sooners and had 60 rushing attempts and only 5 pass attempts?

Do what you want and have fun. Screw those who don't get it!

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Good man! :-)

Dr. Death, excellent points!!! Good write up on page one explaining some basic RnS reads, etc. Good stuff, much appreciated. :))

Yeah the passing game is more difficult for me this year. I'm forcing a lot of throws, and therefore throwing too many picks. If any of you passing gurus would be willing to be lab with me i'd greatly appreciate it.

Well I did some reading up on the 60 GO. I took it to the practice field and was tearing it up.

Going to have to see how it works against the big teams and not just my practice squad.

One thing June Jones talks about is a "flat defender" what is he referring to? Is that the defender that is just playing loosely? I'm not sure how to pick out which is the flat defender?

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Originally Posted by gigemaggs99

One thing June Jones talks about is a "flat defender" what is he referring to? Is that the defender that is just playing loosely? I'm not sure how to pick out which is the flat defender?

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The flat defender is whoever drops into the flat. So in cover 2 the flat defender would be the cornerback and in cover 3 it would be the outside linebacker.
I'm sure others know more about this than me, so please correct me if I am wrong.

I wish I could figure out how to edit sounds, the part at 44-47 seconds makes me laugh my butt off!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5aMJ...layer_embedded

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Originally Posted by gigemaggs99

I wish I could figure out how to edit sounds, the part at 44-47 seconds makes me laugh my butt off!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5aMJ...layer_embedded

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listentoyoutube.com

that site allows you to get the audio from youtube vids in an mp3 format.

i also use audacity. its a free sound editing software thats very simple to use and very easy to navigate around. its perfect for capturing certain parts of a song or something for use in custom stadium sounds.