You can view the page at http://www.thegamingtailgate.com/for...Than-Madden-11
You can view the page at http://www.thegamingtailgate.com/for...Than-Madden-11
So hes saying that we will eventually just be getting the same game just with different rosters in the near future?
I agree madden has been the focal point of EA football and have done somethings well, I havent played much madden since the "speed juke" days. But have been a diehard NCAA fan its nice to see that NCAA is getting the attention that Madden has. I think both games should be equal but different because of the difference they have IRL.
If you mean the same game between NCAA and Madden with different rosters.....that will not will be true. There is a shared core gameplay unit that works both games, but that is the only similarity. In the future, you should expect the opposite where the two games differ in a lot of ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by texacotea
No I understand that and dont expect "same game, just college teams" im saying is the series going to get to a point to where there is nothing new, or we cant upgrade anything else and we get NCAA 11 just with 12 beside it and updated rosters?Quote:
Originally Posted by JBHuskers
@tex - I don't think that will ever happen. There's always something bigger and better than can be added.
no way... offenses change like dirty underwear in college, fads come and go, plays vary so much, rivalries from old will live, but new ones in small ways are made all the time... there is such a different aspect to college football that it is seriously incapable of being "tapped out" to the point that we just get new players and ratings... especially with the new advancements in blocking and ai with the computer now making human-like moves while running the ball... stuff like that will continue to make this series more complex... all while the NFL continues as a whole to work themselves into a box...
"E"
This here is true.Quote:
Originally Posted by cdj
Agreed with CDJ and JB. I mean, they still haven't finished re-incorporating all the features of the last-gen platform into NCAA 11. We're certainly not going to be running out of "new" features anytime soon.
Whether or not they're all worth an upgrade, that's a slightly different discussion. As we got late in the last generation I was upgrading every other year because the features didn't otherwise justify it.
Also, you can look at NHL 11 for a possible insight to the future. Reportedly they're incorporating a new physics engine this year. I don't know if "new physics" is just a fancy way of saying NHL's version of locomotion ... it very well could be just enhanced animations. But if Backbreaker is successful (or just simply outclasses EA's products in physics), we may see huge changes to the back end sometime in this generation. I would think they'd wait until the PS4, but we'll see.
I agree with all, a whole lot has yet to be done with the college football. Just reading some of the blog made me think about it. I myself dont see me NOT buying the game anytime soon. This has been the only game that I buy year in and year out.
I dont know about backbreaker, it just look to much like a rag doll when someone gets hit. I tend to think about ragdoll kung fu when I see it.
The problem I see with Backbreakers approach, and this may be why you think that, is that's there's no semblence of technique for the players. Every tackle seems to be either a flying tackle or a shoulder block, like the wrestling move. Both are fine for the video game world, but you don't see those on the field on Saturday or Sunday. That's the biggest thing I see right now. I'm hoping it's an instance of the trailer containing the "best hits" rather than displaying all of the possible varieties.
But I'm also sure EA could find a way to tighten that engine (or one like it) to a very impressive degree.
I'm completely talking out of my rear end here since I'm not a programmer but football has to be one of the hardest games to program. With 22 'objects' on the screen at one time and each object having a seemingly infinite amount of possibilities*would*seem to be*impossible*to program...and that's just the gameplay. I think this is why there will always be room for improvement. I think people are going to see this with Backbreaker. Everyone was once talking about how awesome it will be b/c its about physics but I'm willing to bet that it'll be 3 or 4 years (if it makes it that long) before it becomes a quality game
Football is extremely hard to program. There are actually masters thesis (theses?) on Football AI. Soccer, by comparison, I have found is much more simple. That said, once you incorporate the AI logic, whether it's 22 or 5 possibilities, it doesn't really matter. The logic takes care of itself.
Honestly I find war games much harder to think about from a programming perspective. Football, while difficult, is relatively straight forward in goal. You want to move the ball. And on a given play, you have a primary plan for moving said ball. How does one begin to program the AI for a game like Halo? I've read up on it, though considerably less than sports game AI, and I'm still flabbergasted.
Have anything that I could read about it? This is something I would like to learn more about.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffHCross
Wouldn't it depend if your goal was a scripted movement type of game (like on games where you see the AI always go to the same waypoints/cover/run the same route) versus more open games where the AI likely has a logic tree to follow (if X happens, execute Y; if Z happens, execute A)?Quote:
How does one begin to program the AI for a game like Halo?
The first one just tells that entity where to go and what to do when the waypoint is reached. The 2nd one is harder in that once the first branch is reach, there are more branches for a real AI experience, such that if the first branch was to hit cover and not shoot back or to move to a flank and suppress, then the 2nd branch is off of that, like shooting back after hitting the cover or staying in cover or after that flank to keep moving or stay in cover and keep suppressing.
Halo blows. I see programming in other games that makes more sense. Some of the stuff in Halo just seems to be making the AI run a route or pattern and then shoot if the player gets within a certain distance or trips a trigger point.
I'm not a game programmer, just thinking aloud. Although I know several in the industry here in the Austin area and could find out perhaps.
Yeah, it would completely depend on the goal of the AI programming, Austin. I guess part of it is that, mentally, I have no idea where to begin on a game like Halo/CoD/Resistance. I can barely play shooters at a decent level, let alone conceptualize about them.
There are absolutely a lot of branches, and that's where AI gets really complicated.
I'd start here: http://aigamedev.com/open/articles/f...hine-learning/ It'll give you a solid idea of the issues faced by a football AI programmer.Quote:
Originally Posted by texacotea
The book mentioned on that article, Mat Buckland's Programming Game AI by Example is a very good book for the programming inclined. At least I think it is. One of the more read books on my bookshelf.
I play a decent amount of shooters and about the only thing that drives me nuts is when programmers will do the 'endless wave' method, basically spawning new opposition continuously until you hit a trigger point that stops the auto-spawn. I hate that because you resort to just sprinting up to a certain point to beat a hard area instead of it just really being smart and eliminating enemies. In other words, do something stupid to progress instead of doing stuff that one would really do under fire.Quote:
I can barely play shooters at a decent level, let alone conceptualize about them.
Anyway, rambling set aside....
Likewise Austin, I hate the "you cannot progress past here until you've killed X enemies" points of games like God of War and Dante's Inferno. I much prefer mechanics like Ratchet & Clank (or any old-school platformer) where you didn't have to kill your enemies, but it would probably make progress easier.
I think the one big thing NCAA has going for it over Madden is the huge variety of offenses you see. Most NFL teams are very similar which makes Madden get old. I agree that NCAA might have more control and hence a greater fun factor. Dynasty mode > Franchise mode.
I defiantly prefer NCAA over Madden. I used to play Madden more until NCAA '98 when dynasty mode was started for this series. I've been a dynasty mode junky since.
In high school I was just Tecmo Bowl for football (mainly played baseball)....got my PS1 my freshman year in 1998, was a Madden guy until 2002 because I just liked the NFL better in real life....then basically was ONLY playing NCAA until 09 when I started getting both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solidice
For the first time, leaning more towards NCAA for quite a while....it's kinda cool to see that they have somewhat of a leg up in terms of improvements and etc. this year.
Agreed in many respects on the improvements end. I definitely see NCAA taking a bigger step than Madden this year giving it the slight edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBHuskers
I'm definitely more excited to play NCAA than Madden, but one thing does worry me... One of the major things that keeps a game (particularly sports) from being believed to be "great" is poor audio. This has persisted throughout both franchises, but with EA's recent announcement that it will have GUS JOHNSON in Madden, I'm led to believe that NCAA still may be "left out of the party" this year in the talk of best sports game of the year.
Does it affect the "fun factor"? Not necessarily. But it definitely affects the overall quality of the game. I'd be curious as to what the CD guys think about this point of contention?
I'm no CD guy, but I would agree that ncaa needs an audio upgrade. That being said I think ESPN integration will provide something in this area, and possibly something we haven't heard about yet, but maybe only music sound bytes, which will add an authentic style we haven't had yet. That coupled with the fact that Lee Corso is now gone will make my games 1000 times more enjoyable. His voice and unrelenting analysis just got to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlindRedBaron
I think the offensive styles of this year in ncaa will spur madden to do something with coordinators in 12. They'll have to do at least that to keep up with whatever ncaa puts into coaches next year. Madden offenses have received new plays, but the styles are just so straight forward, which is why they tried presenting a better cpu playcalling logic in madden 10. I think it was nice, but not pronounced enough to really see a difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy
Another more fun thing would be to directly lock madden draft picks from the ncaa series. Particularly in ratings. You don't get the direct ratings tied in from ncaa, so the football connection is lost between switching games. If I could go into a season and finish it on both games, and then go into my draft board, and based on the ncaa players' performances and ratings in the ncaa game, pick a player that I know about and had heard about or actually played during the ncaa season, I would get all warm and fuzzy inside. The way I think it works now is that the top players are tagged as such from ncaa to madden, but the ratings are random, based on the madden ratings system, so a guy that ran a 95 college speed of 4.3 could now be a 4.5, 85 speed rated player in madden. Even if the rating is lower in madden (4.4 = 92 in ncaa and 4.4 = 89 in madden), I want to see the relative same speed from that player going into madden. A pro day to at least tie the 2 together would be nice as well.
In this way I think both games can seriously improve. I mean look at what madden did with WR's this year, with the logic there, and qbs with playcalling last year. RB's and linemen AI in ncaa this year. There's all sorts of position by position upgrades that can be made on either game. Football has not tapped it's potential from a game standpoint, even in madden. And especially from a defensive standpoint we are nowhere near done on improving. And tying the 2 games together by players is something that I really would hope could happen. There's just a lot to be done, both individually and together through the core engine.
All that to say, I am going to LOVE this iteration of ncaa with all the upgrades and additions. Madden I would normally pick up soon after it comes out, but it's not going to happen this year. I will wait for a sale price on it. I will like the 'coaching' aspect of madden enough to play it some, but ncaa is blowing my socks off.
I've always liked the commentary in the NCAA game. I think there are some lines that get repetitive but I still like it. Nessler is great and I don't think Gus will be better than him. Quite frankly, Nessler is still considered one of the top play by play guys in all of football. What's Gus Johnson? He's usually the #4 guy on a network. Both Herbie and Collinsworth are good but it's still up to the EA team's to use them right. It does seem like NCAA is dropping Lee Corso from the play by play booth. Maybe they have upgraded the commentary a bit.
I agree that the sound and audio aspect is very underrated in sports games and maybe moreso in collegiate sports as you have team specific chants, situational chants, fight songs, in addition to the normal ebb and flow of a crowd during a game to worry about.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlindRedBaron
I should clarify that while we did meet with the NCAA FB sound guy at the Community Event, that was of our own volition. We had met someone in almost every area of the game except audio, so we made the push to meet with him. At the event, the audio was not in a final mix, so even we don't know what to expect in the final version. However, we were able to relay some feedback and thoughts the community has expressed over the years in regards to the audio and he loved hearing all of it. Dale (the sound guru) told us some ideas he has short-term and long-term for the franchise and if he can get them in as planned, it will be very impressive. IIRC, Dale is more of the sound & music levels guy while I think OMT (Adam) works on the commentary.
Maybe. Maybe. But he's also become known for the more interesting / intense commentary calls in the last few years in the NCAA tournament. And he's getting more popular every year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy
Starting at 2:00, Madden Creative Director Ian Cummings talks about enhancements to the audio in Madden. Hopefully we see something similar in NCAA: http://www.operationsports.com/newspost.php?id=415715
Last year was the first time I played Madden more than NCAA. Based on what I have seen thus far I will be playing NCAA non stop and frankly see little reason to purchase Madden. I am really impressed on how it seems as though EA/Tiburon has stepped up big-time.
I agree with that. However I think the coaching aspect of madden will eventually get me to buy it. I have wanted madden to have an aspect of HC lately. I really liked HC from everything but a gameplay standpoint, cause you couldn't play obviously. Really excited to try out true gameplanning eventually. But my love is college football, so I'm still convinced it will be a while before madden hits my shelf.Quote:
Originally Posted by jaymo76
Like I said before too, if they ever get the physical attributes and skills to match up from ncaa to madden through the draft, I would really enjoy playing a truly side by side dynasty with both games. Would simulate years in a fun way with recruiting and the draft.
Yeah when the move was made for Josh from NFL Head Coach to Madden, I figured something would be implemented within a year or two...maybe it's three.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayrah
The game planning feature sounds neat but am I the only one that thinks that aspect will end up being more of a dud than a hit? It sounds like it's just a better version of Ask Madden that allows the user some input. I'm not sure that a month in to the gaming season people will still care that much about this feature.
Last year Madden had pro-tak and game speed sliders that people loved and really wished NCAA had. I don't think anyone is going to play Madden more because of the game flow feature.
Agreed, it seems like a better version of Ask Madden. When I was down at EA for the NFL Draft, I got to briefly play Madden 11, and I turned that option off. The game planning would be more of a play now mess around type of thing for me. I would stlil rather have the control. But EA was definitely on to something with this....they realized that if you spend say 45-50 minutes in a game, you're spending HALF that in the playbook. There will be a ton of casual people that will absolutely love this feature because it kinda adds a real factor into the game with having the OC or DC in your ear, and your games are going to be that much shorter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy
I'd love a version of Ask Madden that actually took into account the game plan that I want to implement, rather than seemingly random choices from my playbook. I'd love to see both Game Flow and Game Plan as options in NCAA 12.
Madden just looks flat thus far... no major announcements, no interesting highlights, no exciting news that makes me want to buy the game. NCAA is hitting it out of the park and I am salivating for another scrap they will throw out to us.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBHuskers
I think Madden's holding back something big. I have no idea what that could be, but it just feels like something big is coming. Otherwise, the lack of concrete announcements thus far really makes no sense.
You may well be right... let's hope so anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffHCross
Well, that's not necessarily true about the no big announcements thing from Madden. They've announced some pretty major improvements as well this year, but the problem for them is that ncaa got to announce them first. Locomotion, Dual stick, blocking AI, WR awareness, and Game Flow are some pretty big announcements. Could be something bigger coming, in fact I expect that, and it seems like they've been reserved so far, but they still have that extra month too. Also they usually reserve most of their features for after E3.
Game Flow is a better version of Ask Madden, if you want it to be, or if you want to run the default offense. But if you take the time, it can be 100% your gameplan. You get to choose set up plays for all specific situations. So actually you are still calling the play, but you just get to set it up pre game instead of in game. It's not ask madden at that point, you just already selected what plays YOU would call in that situation, so it takes away having to scroll through the playbook, when you know what you want to do. And if you have something else in mind you can always pull up the full playbook. It actually sounds like a PERFECT feature for the no huddle offense of ncaa.
I don't know all of what Madden has in store, but it's going to be tough for them to have more buzz and hype heading into launch than NCAA. NCAA has announced some cool stuff and there's still a couple big items left. I think one is in both FB titles, but not the other - and Madden fans will be jealous. On the first item, I haven't seen anyone, anywhere guess anything close to it. On the second, I've seen a few posts around the web in the ballpark, but no one has nailed the specifics and that's where the impressive part is.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffHCross
Such a tease CDJ! Do you think we will have to wait until E3 to hear about these last two big announcements???Quote:
Originally Posted by cdj
No clue when they will announce. My guess is that they won't let there be a month or two with no new info like we had last year. When is E3 compared to the release date?Quote:
Originally Posted by jaymo76
Didn't mean to tease....just letting people know that guessing will only get them set up for failure. People will really love and enjoy what they added, but people may not fully understand or appreciate them until they see it in action.