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Watching the 4th quarter now, the Oilers started a drive at their own 10 and drove down to the Bills 16... then Montgomery drops the snap for the FG, resulting in 0 points. Once again, the ST's fails them miserably. Montgomery also had 2 punts for 25 yards each, giving Buffalo great field position. Sheesh... it's a wonder they didn't make him walk back to Houston after the game! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by JeffHCross
I hear what you're saying, Dr. Death. I never said, however, that the offense deserves all, or even most, of the blame. I simply stated that they were not without blame. 4 plays (3 passing), 3 yards, and an interception in the entire 3rd quarter supports that. When the defense and special teams were failing them, the offense could have stemmed the tide by getting a couple of first downs. They didn't. To me, that makes them responsible as well.
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I use 2-3 TE on this play, so they never come out in a nickle, ect...Quote:
Originally Posted by baseballplyrmvp
I use it as a powerplay, Kinda like the "bulldog formation or whatever its called now, they changed its name in the patch". Its hard to explain, if i can ever upload a video in 13 i show it to you
.It doesn't matter just have fun with the pure.
But its great to combine slow guys with fast guys for the r&s (TE). slow guys stay in the gaps longer.
I can already tell you that Dr. Death will respond by pointing out that June Jones (and maybe most R&S coaches, I'm not sure) never use TEs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Steve
But, since EA has seen fit to include TE formations in the R&S playbooks, I can't really blame you for it.
his whole setup for that play isnt even remotely related to the run and shoot in the first place, since he's using 2-3 te's. :fp: what was the point of even mentioning it then?
And that's fair to say, however, you name me any offense and I can point to times when they had the exact same thing happen to them. Yet nobody blames the offense, only when it's the R&S. For example... the 2006 Insight Bowl. :Minnesota: 38 - :Texas_Tech: 7 w/ just over 7 1/2 minutes to play in the 3rd quarter. Yet :Texas_Tech: rallies for a 38-38 tie and then wins in OT 44-41, another game I have... yet nobody blamed the pro style offense that :Minnesota: was running for failing, multiple times, to get first downs.Quote:
Originally Posted by steelerfan
That's my point. When a team blows a big lead everyone wants to blame the defense. Unless it's the R&S.
Also, to clarify some things: Kevin Gilbride didn't junk the offense after leaving Houston. In fact, he used it quite a lot in Jacksonville when they were an expansion team and their second year in the league they went to the AFC Championship using it. He did employ a TE more as Pete Mitchell caught 41 and 52 passes respectively, but they were still using the R&S scheme. Ernest Givens even joined them for their inaugural season.
And here are some great quotes by some big time football people talking about the R&S offense:
"He doesn't need a whole lot of hole, and that stretched-out offense can create holes." - Bill Belichick - discussing the running game
"When the league switches totally to the run-and-shoot, I'm gone. Retiring. I can't tell you what a nightmare it is." - Howie Long
"I don't think anybody stops it. They always make their yardage. What you hope to do is keep the scoring down the best you can to give yourself a chance to be successful." - Marty Schottenheimer
"I asked this guy, this NFL scout, 'How do you stop this thing?' He told me, 'You don't." - Bruce Keidan
"It's not a coincidence we've been in this offense for seven years and we've been to the playoffs seven years. To me, somebody has to strike the correlation there and recognize it has to be a contributing factor, no matter how grudgingly people want to admit that." - Kevin Gilbride
"The way they throw, I think they can hold up. I know from a defensive standpoint, the run-and-shoot gives me nightmares." - Rusty Tillman
"The run-and-shoot got the Oilers where they are. I think defenses all over the league are going to be very relieved." - Rod Woodson - After Bud Adams said the Oilers were no longer going to be using the R&S
"I've seen them beat everyone on their schedule. Look at the numbers they've posted. They've won more games than a lot of conventional offenses. I just don't see how you can change something that works." - Derrick Thomas - Again, after Adams made the decision to go away from the R&S
"The biggest misconception about the run- and-shoot is that it's a totally passing offense. It's really not. It's a one-back, spread offense, but it's not a passing offense completely." - Bill Parcells
"As a matter of fact, we use some of the exact routes from the run-and-shoot scheme in our offense. And just about everybody does. That's just the truth." - Chan Gailey
"I always used to think the Run-and-Shoot was one of the toughest offenses to stop." - Jim Johnson
"Now I look around, and the Patriots and the Colts and people like that are running what we ran and saying, 'That's how you play the game.' Knowing I was a part of that with Jerry and Mouse (Davis) gives me a lot of satisfaction. Now everybody in the National Football League does what we do now. It just so happens that New England does it every play." - June Jones in 2008
"Sometimes, we'll do some run-and-shoot. We'll sit back with one back and four wide receivers and do that. I remember the run-and-shoot in Atlanta. We always had a 1,000-yard rusher every year. We had a 1,000-yard rusher because we spread the field." - Robbie Tobeck
:fp:lol, didn't know. O well i love running it, look forward to running it in 13. AND this time i don't have to stop to throw that 50% is now 90%!
I can't say that June Jones NEVER use{s} or use{d} a TE, because I have a 1994 game between the Falcons and Raiders, and he uses a TE quite a lot in that game. Mostly running plays, but if memory serves the TE actually catches a pass or two. But overall, no, most R&S teams don't even have a TE on the roster.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffHCross
And they never use 2 or 3 on a play.
Bold ... overload. Lol!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Death
Maybe it was somebody else that essentially said that the TE doesn't exist in a Run & Shoot offense. Or maybe it was June but he'd forgotten about 1994 :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Death
The is NO such thing as Bold Overload!!! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by JeffHCross
No, I'm pretty sure you remember it right and it was Jones who said that. I have a bunch of their 1994/95 games and that Raider game is the only one where they used a TE. Looking up their stats from 1994 I see their TE - Mitch Lyons - caught 7 passes. 3 against the Rams and 4 against the Raiders. Obviously I don't have the Ram game. But here's the odd thing... in the Raider game they lose 17-30 and they win the Ram game 8-5. Yes... 8-5!!! So 25 total points in two games where they used a TE. Hmmm...Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffHCross
What makes the Raider game even more confusing is this: The Raiders always played Man>Man defense, thus, making the R&S easier to run because you always knew what the D would be in. To illustrate this point the Lions played the Raiders in 1990 and lost 31-38. Obviously the Raiders didn't shut them down, they simply outscored them. The Lions had Rodney Peete at QB. But Barry Sanders ran for 176 yards on just 25 carries. Why? Because the Lions would audible to a run when they saw 5 or less in the box, all their WR's would run Go Routes, forcing the Man>Man DB's to turn their backs to the line and Sanders could run wild.
Then, in 1991, the Raiders opened in Houston and the Oilers did the same thing, beating the Raiders 47-17 and running for 219 yards and 3 TD's on 36 carries whilst throwing for 268 and 2 TD's.
So why Jones would change things up when the Raiders had proven they could not stop the R&S is beyond me. That day Jeff George only threw 29 passes too. Which is way below what a R&S team usually throws in a game.
I've no idea why Jones would do that, but in at least two games he did use a TE. It didn't help them at all though! :D
I think just like with any offensive style whether it be pro style, Spread , West Coast, Air Raid etc...coaches from whichever classification always have their way of calling plays and formations in these systems, they have their way of teaching their system, they have their way of scheming or syncrinizing their concepts. In other words they all have that special touch, play, teaching technique that seperates them from the other coaches within this specific system. Mouse Davis, (who happens to be one of my favorite coaches on the planet) hated the shotgun. He felt that it screwed up the timing with specific routes and plays, most notably "Choice" which requires perfect timing between the QB and WR who not only has specific rules that he must carry out step by step with this concept, but must also decide what to route he must convert to while reading the coverage. NO wonder the RUN and Shoot had 5-7 concepts! Mouse was strickly undercenter all the way and he got alot of the ideas concerning timing and being undercenter from the late great Bill Walsh.
June Jones on the other hand liked being in the shotgun. Remember I talked about everybody putting their signature touches on a specific system, June did so not only with the shotgun, b ut also cutting down on all the route conversions made popular not only by Mouse but a number of other Run and Shooters. He also added more concepts and added a host of various screen passes which took the place of alot of the run game.
"LEVELS", Peyton Manning's favorite play in the whole wide world, and the "GEORGIA CONCEPT" were added to his system to give his version of the Run and Shoot. As for the TE'S I am really not sure why he did what he did but it could have been that these guys might act as a threat for the pass game like a WR and still give him a little better blocker for an already proven run game, I dunno, and again maybe he was looking at trying something new to add to his system.
These subtle and sometimes effective and sometimes not signature touches are not only found in the Run and Shoot systems and all the coaches within but can be found with other systems as well. One popular system in which even you and I right now could begin adding our own touches and trying new things out is the SPREAD OFFENSE. I was driving today and started thinking just how adaptable this system really is especially on the High School Level. Of course the same scenario for the College game but at least you have the oppurtunity to recruit to fit your needs. But with the SPREAD adapting seems to be reasonable. Plays and formations can basically stay the same but the running game in each Spread offense is truly the difference maker for many teams. An example of an Option based Spread Run game can be found at The University Of Oregon with Chip Kellys high powered Zone based scheme and a variety of options off of. Notre Dame, with Brian Kelly's version has not had the oppurtunity to be what Coach wants it to be because of the QB situation. The Irish run more Pro Style run plays from the Gun with a heavy emphasis of multiple TE's who are very athletic and can aid with run blocking. So many coaches have had their signatures, or touches on different aspects of the Spread, this in return has given us an offensive philosophy that can meet the needs of any school at either level without doing an all-out change of systems from year to year. You got a kid that has a strong arm and accurate but is slower than hell, stay with your Spread and run more of maybe an Air Raid or what someguys are doing is more of a Pro Style Spread kinda like what the New England Patriots are doing. On the other hand, same team but have a QB with nice speed but not really an effective passer, stay with your Spread and concentrate more on a Run oriented Spread system. All the plays and formations stay the same. You can see why so many Coaches are heading this direction. You guys would not believe the number of High School Coaches in the COUNTRY that are running some form of NO HUDDLE SPREAD!!! And they are running the same plays as the Colleges. College Coaches are loving this and you can see why!
So many more examples of many coaches putting their own touch or signature if you will, on every system being used at all levels. One other quick example because it is an interesting one that may even intrest some of you. I live in West Virginia about 15-20 minutes from the capitol. We have The University of Charleston an NAIA school who runs Navy's offense. Their touch, contribution, signature to the system is that they run Navy's whole offense from the Shotgun. They do some interesting things which include the MIDLINE which is one of their bread and Butter plays as it is to the Midshipman, as well as the Veer. Pretty interesting.
Just some final thoughts on the TE'S. I have to say I was concerned 5-6 years ago that with the Spread offense that the TE and FB would come extinct. The FB position pretty much has with the exception of a handful of teams. Even the Pro Style guys are going to more oneback sets. The TE is a different story with several going into the NFL draft ranking high because of height, speed, the ability to not only be a receiver but a blocker too. Guys like the TE'S these days are not that of the past, they may or may not be bigger but they are just as strong, much faster, and many of them are the best Athletes on the field. The TE for many teams have replaced the FB acting and carrying out assignments that would classify him as an "H BACK". Dallas and San Diego just to name a few have even aligned the TE in the Backfield with their Shotgun 2 RB Sets.
Take a look at Aaron Hernandez of the Patriots who are a Pro Style Spread Team, this is the kind of athlete coaches die for at the TE position. Many of the Spread teams are utilizing even dual TE's to help with what one would call more of a Pro Style Shotgun offense which includes a Pro Style running attack from the gun.
All in all it is about what we contribute to the system we are utilizing, our signature, and maybe, just maybe June Jones was in fact trying to write another chapter in the Run and Shoot System, and that chapter might have been titled something like this, "UTILIZING THE TIGHT ENDS IN THE RUN AND SHOOT" You never know! Great thread and good to see you guys again! Take care
irishfbfan1
The RnS never died, its still alive and well in the NFL and college - granted teams don't call their offense the RnS anymore but everyone uses the concepts. Just like the WCO, there isn't a true WCO anymore, but there are plenty of offenses that use its concepts. The Choice and Switch routes are fairly common from HS on up, you also see the Seam and Streak reads built into a lot of modern passing concepts. It's never gone away - smart coaches take what works from other offenses and incorporate them into their own and wala here we are in the modern age of football - a melting pot of offensive styles.
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Originally Posted by Oneback
So true oneback, and great post buddy! All of us coaches are thieves when it comes to football strategies, and all of us admit it it! Yes there are thieves when it comes to scheming when talking madden and ncaa. The important thing and I think that I eluded to it in my above essay lol, is that you need to incorporate your own ideas, put your signature or touch on the system you may know and love or have accustomed to. By doing this you have opened the door for other new and appealing ways to to improve an already proven philosophy that just may attract others.
What if the above scenario with June Jones had worked as far as using the TE'S with his Run and Shoot offense?
Another area where I have seen coaches in real life try to tackle is merging the Run and Shoot with some kind of Veer option attack similar to what Georgia Southern used to run, or maybe Navy's ground attack with the Shoot. Just so damn hard to practice and get all the ins and outs for your football team. You would be running two complete offenses trying to form one. Doesnt hurt to experiment though!
Good stuff guys!
Irish
Completely agree I'm a multiple pro, shifting, motioning, h-back fiend - that being said I really like the RnS 60/1 Go concept with the A-Back running the sweep route and Y-Back running a seam read - its a great sprint out pass which fits in well with our one back zone running game where we motion the slot over into a trips look quite a bit to handle the overhang/force player.
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Originally Posted by JeffHCross
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Originally Posted by baseballplyrmvp
Looks like we might have hope. It's against Varsity difficulty, naturally, but I was able to just put up 17 carries for 130 yards (or something like that) using USC's Shotgun running plays. Very bland, like 45 Quick Base, HB Draw and HB Sweep. Nothing exotic, and I took several losses trying to figure out how to run 45 Quick Base with the pulling guard who doesn't seem to block anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Death
Have you played as :Baylor: yet? In Shotgun Spread they have a play called: HB Mid Screen, which is a Shovel Pass... you have to read the D to know when to shovel it to him... but I've had great success w/ it. As far as the running game... I see that lousy G I used to have transferred to your team!!! :D :D :DQuote:
Originally Posted by JeffHCross
You're going to go through every formation and add that formation to your custom playbook that has a variation of that play, aren't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Death
Fuckin' A right I am!!! :D I just hope that the game will allow me to audible from 5-Wide to that play... because against certain defensive fronts in the demo, the play is lethal!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by souljahbill
Outside of the Heisman Challenge, no. My test last night was to use a non-Spread team to run. Because in years past, it's been possible to run Read Option/QB Wrap/etc from Shotgun, but a "regular" Shotgun running game was difficult to sustain at best. So I wanted to use Pro-Style shotgun runs as a test. USC's was horribly limited though ... I might test Alabama or LSU tonight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Death
Try LSU's. I've had success with them.