Printable View
the hard part is how to make people knowingly choose something that is broke beyond repair (zone), do u force them to use it on 1st down? 2nd? 3rd?
as papa stated, he will quit if not allowed to run his man 100% of the time defense, and i would too with the way zone is.
no one was arguing man was not over powered from the start, and still is gimmicky now. there is no good fix for it though.
I can see if somebody was using man press coverage and blitzing 99% of the time....that would be kind of lame, IMO. I use cover 2 man about 80% of the time....always sending the defensive line only....cover 2/3/4 about 20 percent of the time just mix it up (even though I'm not comfortable) and not give the user a chance to adjust. I probably blitz 5% of the time between the 20s. Kingpin has thrown for about 500 yards against me for the 2nd game in a row....the only difference between the 2 games (points/turnovers) was the 1st year....he had a senior QB with 95 accuracy and this year he had a redshirt freshman at the #1 toughest place to play. Once Prime got adjusted in the title game last season....he lit my arssss up for 28 points in 2.5 quarters. Somebody is gonna be open (ask Kingpin) unless you are running the same routes the whole game. You just have to find the open man and not rely on running certain routes that are always open against zone coverage. It's not like I use it just because it's "over-powered" this year....I have been using it since NCAA Football 98 with Danny Wuerffel on the cover. I used it last year and had the corners (and recruited 'em) to make it a tough defense to face while everybody else was running zone defenses.
As I've ran practice mode a ton against man defenses (since I've dropped the other OD I was in)....I've noticed that it's all about anticipation this year....if you wait a second or two too long....the CBs will make you pay....it could be my QB improving from a sophomore to a junior....but I know doing more anticipating instead of waiting for somebody to clearly beat their man has helped me be more comfortable with the passing game.
One of the things I have noticed with the latest patch is that the pass rush needs to be upped...while zone coverages and the way zones work in the game are flawed they can still be effective but only when you are able to get a decent pass rush (this is true with any zone coverage however).
EA has decided to stick with the old "spot drop" style of zone coverage, now I am unsure as of right now (haven't done a lot of testing) if the problem is that plays just do not react to offensive threats in their zone or if its a problem with the ratings. Now I will say though the biggest flaw with spot drop zones from pee-wee all the way up into pro is that while the defender is dropping there are windows that open that allow for easy completions (sound familiar) this is why teams have started going to pattern reading which is essentially zone coverage early and man coverage late in the play. Until EA programs pattern reading coverages we are stuck with spot drop zones.
I can't turn up the pass coverage slider as it would make man coverage over powered so the only thing I can do is turn up the pass rush.
With all that being said one of the things I am going to start testing is the effect of ratings in zone coverage...I don't really see a lot of problems with zone coverage on the outside by corners and safties (they've got higher zone coverage ratings), is this because it takes longer for the ball to get into their area and they have more time to react or is it the ratings. The biggest problem with any zone coverage (real life or video game) is the intermediate area now I think we can all agree that it is much worse in the game than it is in real life, but what if the linebackers patrolling the middle also had 80+ zone coverage ratings? Would this improve?
In this game the only coverage that will ever be able to stop a slant is man coverage...the inside defenders are still dropping to their spots when the ball is thrown into the window if thrown on time, I don't think there will ever be a way to fix this with the way zones are programmed now. Man gets completely eaten alive by crossing and mesh routes however, which is where you really need zone coverages.
Another big problem with zone coverage in the game is that defenders do not carry threats outside of their zone when there is no threat of another reciever entering their zone.
I am working on the sliders in my spare time and hope to have something together by this weekend, hopefully I will be able to clean some things up but lets not hold our breath.
This I agree with, you must throw the ball before the receiver is open not wait until he is open...if you are a second late the ball will get picked or knocked down...doesn't matter if its man or zone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papa LoneStar
I agree, there is no way to police it. but if its used with blitzing then is using it to your adavantage. Im not saying stop it or find a way to controll it, i made statement to maybe shed some light on the situation. IMO I believe that everyone here is straight enough to no aduse this.
ill let you all now how much the QB has to do with it when my 70 overall rated freshman tries to pass against miami tomorrow lol, tex which time would be best for you on what i listed?
I agree with this. I think a lot of it had to do with my QB and as far as my corners go, even when I ran Man defense I still got beat. I think a lot of the success of the man coverage has to do with the ratings of the players you have. As far as zone goes, it seems harder to get pressure if you call a zone blitz, but the O Line seems to pick it up perfectly which then gives the QB all the time in the world and less defenders for the pass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papa LoneStar
Has anyone messed with the gameplan settings for zone D?
I will let you know something definite tonight. The wifey went to the doctor and is having contractions and the babys heartrate is lowering while she is comtracting. Right now its in the air it really depends on what transpires in the next couple hoursQuote:
Originally Posted by fsuprime
Ah, np man, hope its a minor thing. No rush. My schedule is set for tomorrow
I elaborated on my zone defense post from above:
http://www.thegamingtailgate.com/for...rage-explained
I mess with them a lot. But the central problem with zone has nothing to do with depth, which is all the gameplan affects. The central problem is awareness and positioning. The "spot zone" design decision, as Oneback described it, is the central problem that breaks zone coverage on the hash marks, to the point that it's almost not worth running ever ... on the hash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingpin32
The biggest problem I saw last night, and this is probably what has me most concerned about man coverage, is that there is a drastic difference between our CPU sliders and what's used for HUM games in terms of pass defense. Snoop and I were talking during the game, and we've always suspected that sliders were thrown out the window during HUM games. Something in the way the sliders are working this year has made it ridiculously obvious that the sliders are not used. I don't see any (or practically any) of the problems with man coverage when I use our sliders in offline dynasty or CPU games. It's only in user games that it becomes a problem.
And the biggest problem is that there's practically no way to fix it. The only real resolution would be to make our sliders closer to the default. But let's be honest ... there's a reason they're not. The man defense I saw against Snoop last night was simply unplayable for the entire first half.
I agree in games against CPU I don't see things happen like they seem to against other users. I'm pretty much completely sold that the sliders have no effect in user vs user games.
The problem with trying to realistic throw against msn coverage gets u in trouble. For example an out pass u would throw before the break, not in this game because the DB runs the route before you, he knows where the ball is going so it's a pick...then if you add the dumb ball trajectory and aggressive coverage usually it's going to be picks.
I had a play today where the TE was running a short out. He wasn't covered pre-snap, so as soon as the ball was snapped I threw to him. Normally this would mean a 4 or 5 yard streak pattern and he catches the ball. As Snoop can attest, I take advantage of things like this often.
Instead, my QB throws about 10 yards downfield and directly at the playside CB. It, thankfully, hits him in the numbers and falls to the turf. I might have to upload that highlight, because that was ridiculous.
skip kind of spoke to this, but I want to elaborate. This is a very good example of the difference between playing the CPU and playing the user. Up until Tuesday (I haven't tried since), I could call a comeback/curl route, let the receiver run it, and if I threw before the break, the CPU CB would be probably 2 or 3 yards downfield while my WR is catching the ball. Pretty much exactly how a curl is supposed to be thrown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneback
Against a HUM player, that CB is in front of your receiver before he even starts on his own break, and it's a pick. Every. time.
And just to make things more fun ... against the CPU, since the patch, apparently they can make the "sit in the pocket for 5 seconds, have my player sit in a curl route, have the DB in his hip pocket, and still throw the ball with no reaction from the DB" play. I hate that crap.
Not entirely trueQuote:
Originally Posted by JeffHCross
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T71k9XBXyMc#t=3m27s
Okay, fine ... More. Often. Than. Not. ;)
I wish I would have had my upload as well on the man vs man coverage where I hit Kenney on a deep curl for 82yd TD, while it does happen it is not all the time though.
I've almost abandoned the out routes because I can never seem to time it. To me that is the key word, Time it. For me I like that the DB are at times in a better position to make a play on the ball then the WR (this adds realism), now for me there is a fine line too. Are there still routes available for that play (almost certainly there is a dump off I've seen). On an OUT pattern, if you notice the DB is undercutting your WR just dump it off and chalk it up to good coverage. In practice last night I was messing around with this and on the out routes the longer it took me to decide to throw it the more chances the DB had at undercutting my WR (on top of the DB running my route) so I found myself really watching the cut, and if the WR had position at that point I would drill the ball in there and that started to work great. I'm going to see what I find in a game but after practicing that play via playcalling and audibles I actually like that the DB is playing shutdown ball.
**Also I'm going to do this with my Western Kentucky Hilltoppers as well to see if I see the same exact thing or things a little more open because of the talent difference.
While I certianly acknowledge that there are plenty of times where the CB runs the route for you I challenge you to go load up Boise State and run patterns with their WR's or with Notre Dame throwing to Michael Floyd. The Boise State receivers especially have high route running ratings and make cuts in routes unrealistically fast and will always be ahead of the DB. What I have noticed with my recievers (top three are 90 OVR) is that some times they will make their cuts at a normal speed and be ahead of the DB and other times (not as often) they will make super human cuts which completely throw off the timing of the pass, yes they will be WIDE open but because of how fast they make their cut and the difference in timing its usually an imcompletion.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffHCross
It all comes down to the WR/TE's route running ability and the DB's coverage ability, a high route running ability will typically beat high man coverage ability though but the DB will at least be near and be able to make a play on the ball. The higher the route running ability the more predictable the route will be run.