How can you tell if it's man or zone pre-snap besides putting a receiver in motion? Is there a way to tell alignment wise? This could greatly improve my pathetic passing game.
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How can you tell if it's man or zone pre-snap besides putting a receiver in motion? Is there a way to tell alignment wise? This could greatly improve my pathetic passing game.
I will answer this a couple of ways - the way it works in real life and the way it is in the game...Quote:
Originally Posted by souljahbill
In real life, the R&S would motion guys, sometimes all the way, sometimes just to the QB and then back to where he started from. This would tell the offense if it was Zone or Man. Once June Jones got to :Hawaii: he almost completely did away w/ motion by just lining up in a Trips formation. When in 2X2 he rarely used motion as the defense was determined after the snap of the ball.
Now, in the game, you could use motion or line up in Trips and you would know, instantly, if the D was in Man or Zone, but since EA decided to have defenses "disguise" their looks by showing Man on every play, you'll have to get used to reading the way guys line up on D and reacting quickly after the snap. There are subtle ways of telling Man or Zone by how the CB's and/or FS/SS line up and when in 4-Wide, how the LBer lines up.
I will say this though - EA "disguising" coverage is complete crap. When a team calls Cover 2 on defense, the CB doesn't follow the WR if he goes in motion. Why EA decided to do this is beyond me, but I'll be willing to bet it's out of next year's game.
While I completely agree with you - in Cover 2 Match the corners would travel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Death
There is Cover 2 Man defense where, yes, the CB would follow the WR because they are in Man... I was talking specifically about Cover 2 Zone. And why do teams run Cover 2 Zone? To prevent sweeps, screens, quick outs to the TE, etc... And that's why the CB's stay at home. As EA has it in this year's game, that "always showing Man" is going to be exploited to hell and back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneback
There are many ways to disguise coverage, it's just sad that they chose the path they did. It isn't real. And I think the one thing we all agree on at this site is that we want realism. And playing any zone coverage and having your DB follow a WR in motion is counter-productive to calling the zone defense. Because in doing so, you are now creating holes in your defense, which defeats the purpose of calling a zone in the first place.
There are Cover 2 Man and Cover 2 Zone defenses... EA should realize this and have the defense and the CPU behave accordingly.
Just hit :ps3tri: right to "disguise" coverage or man-align lol. This will make them stay put and in their zone alignment.
Unfortunately, the CPU doesn't do that and that is what my complaint is about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Escobar
Again I agree completely with your point of view on it, however Cover 2 Match (probably called several different things in other systems/terminologies) is a zone coverage where the corner will travel with the WR and the linebackers will BOW. This is used by teams that don't have great corners (Cover 2 helps protect average corners) that are also not good tacklers - thus allowing the defense to protect their corners and put a better tackling linebacker as the weak side force defender.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Death
That being said, this is not something the CPU will do so it's a moot point when playing the CPU and will open up the running game away from the slot.
But, but, all those guys posted Wishlist threads saying the CB should follow the receiver ....Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Death
Oh wait.
Dr. Death, would you mind taking us step-by-step through your read progression when using a play like 60 Slide? With 3 option routes in the same play, I would think this play could be unstoppable if executed correctly...maybe you could describe how you'd pre- and post-read against some basic defenses (Cover 1/2/3, Man w/2 deep zone, etc)
I am hoping to go through a vast majority of the Run & Shoot this week, before the game comes out unless you have the Season Pass, but I am also keenly aware that EA did nothing to improve the R&S in the game, otherwise I'm quite certain they would have used it during one of their video blogs to boast about the "new improvements."Quote:
Originally Posted by mew3782
But, to go over the 60 Slide as it is in the game - and right now this is all based on NCAA '12 and the demo for '13 - your three main reads are going to be on the Trips side. In the :SMU: playbook 60 Slide is in the Trips formation and Trips HB Weak - {WK} - formation. In real life the 4 WR's are called as such:
X.............W................................... ......Y................Z
In Trips Right they would be like this on 60 Slide:
X................................................. ........Y....W....Z
Since they all can't be on the LOS, this is how it will look:
X................................................. ....................Z
.................................................. .........Y....W
Your first read is always going to be the Y receiver, or A on XBox. I don't have a PS3, so I'm not certain what icon he will have on that system, but it's the inside WR on the Trips side. The way EA has the R&S in the game is so vastly different than real life, thus making it easier at times, but also much more frustrating because so much of what makes up the R&S is left out of the game.
But let's look at some basic defenses and why Y {A} is your primary read:
Against Cover 3 he is going to run a Seam route. W/ the SS dropping down that means the FS has the entire middle of the field to cover, and you want to hit Y {A} after he clears the LB's and/or SS and before the FS can get to him. In real life, this play can be gold because in real life LB's don't have super-human abilities and the FS isn't psychic. There's another rule in the R&S that if a defender comes over to cover you, then you "cut across his face." So... let's say the D shows Cover 3 early and the FS is already in the middle of the field anticipating the Y receiver running the Seam route. And at the snap of the ball the FS "jumps" the route, then the WR is instructed to "cut across his face" - thus forcing the FS to turn completely around and in the time it takes him to do that, the WR will be well on his way to the end zone. If that situation arose, the WR would "cut across his face" by running a Post Route.
Your second read against Cover 3 would be the Z receiver, or B on XBox. Against Cover 3 he runs a Hook Route at 10-12 yards and when timed right, will be wide open as the CB is dropping back to protect against the deep route. The Z {B} receiver can help this by running hard as if he is going deep, and the second the CB turns his hips to protect against the Go Route, the receiver cuts it off and does the Hook. Again, when timed right, it is virtually unstoppable.
The W receiver, or {LB} on XBox, runs the Bubble and is the last of your three reads. If you have run this play over and over and hit Y and Z, you will find times when the D starts over protecting against that and the Bubble to W {LB} will be open. This is of course a real life tendency that you won't find in the game, since EA really doesn't have an adaptive and intelligent AI that picks up on certain tendencies.
Against Cover 2 again Y is the primary WR and he will run a Post Route and Z will run a Go Route, w/ the QB needing to hit him before the SS gets over to that area of the field. Again, this all depends on what has happened prior in the game. If you've run this play against Cover 2 five times and all five times you've hit Y on the Post for big gains, then one of the safety's is going to be a little more protective of the middle of the field. If it's the SS, then you have the Z on the Go Route. If it's the FS, then you have X on the Go Route.
Against a Blitz, you want to hit Y, typically on a Hot Route. Since the D is blitzing they will be in Man and Y just does a quick slant across the middle of the field. This isn't in the game, but you can make the read and Hot Route Y yourself to this route. In real life, the R&S used to call this play in 2 X 2 formation, as such:
Rip 60 Z Slide
X...............................LT....LG....C....R G....RT.........................Z
...........................W...................... ..............Y.....{W after motion}
...............................................QB. ..SB
The Rip means W will motion Right. They could also reverse this or flip it and call it Liz 61 X Slide. Liz would mean Y motions Left.
Now when W - or Y - would motion, if the D was in Man, the motioning WR would yell out UNDER and this changed everyone's routes on the Trips side. Z now runs a Post, W - the Motion WR - runs a Wheel Route and Y runs about 5 yards, fakes hard to the inside and then cuts outside. Basically a 5 & Out, but w/ that hard fake to the inside. And since he would be covered by the SS, he would almost always be open because very few SS's can cover a small, speedy WR.
Unfortunately, this is another of the things EA didn't implement from this offense into the game. With the new Hot Routes this year, you could, conceivably, Hot Route Y to do what they do in real life.
Also, w/ the Bubble Screen supposedly working better this year, if you see a Cover 4 or even an all out blitz - EA's idiotic 8 Man Blitz - you could also hit W {LB} on the Bubble and probably have some great success. Without having the game yet I don't know how effective the Bubble will be against a Cover 3 or a Cover 6... that is yet to be determined.
Hopefully this provides some help and some insight. It is so very frustrating that EA only implemented about 3% of the offense in the game, but if you know how to make quick, post-snap reads and can make pre-snap reads and Hot Route certain guys, or know who to go to quickly, the play can be very lethal.
Thanks so much! Would you also mind describing your progression for the 61 Choice?
Keep in mind it's not my progression, I am giving you information from the plethora of Mouse Davis and/or June Jones playbooks I have. The trick is tying it in w/ the game. Since the R&S isn't properly implemented in the game I don't run it. In 2002 I saw the Rich Gannon led :Oakland_Raiders: and their pass-heavy offense and I saw that whenever they went 5-Wide they were unstoppable.Quote:
Originally Posted by mew3782
In week two of that year when Gannon was throwing all over the :Pitt_Steelers: it gave me an idea for an offense that's part West Coast, part Run & Shoot, part Air Raid and played out of 5-Wide. So what I run is maybe 10% R&S...
Anyway... since today is the 4th and I have stuff going on I will try to do a full write up on the R&S tomorrow and spotlight several of the plays {and all the ones in the game - all 4 of them} Thanks for your interest and hopefully tomorrow I can have a more complete picture laid out for you.
Dr D.....how do the progressions change against the defenses above, if you throw in a rip/liz call on 60 slide, thereby running it from 2x2 instead of trips?
Since it's like 140* here I decided to come back inside to the air conditioner :D and since I am here I may as well tackle this stuff right now. What you have to realize is the R&S has packages of plays that are run from the base formation, which is 2 X 2, and packages run from Trips formations. Slide is always run from the Trips formation. It either starts as 2 X 2 and then W or Y will motion or they will line up in Trips right from the get-go.Quote:
Originally Posted by baseballplyrmvp
That's real life, but since they changed the way routes are run in the game when you motion a guy this year - say you line up in Trips Right and W {LB} is running the Bubble, if you were to motion him to the left side, creating a base or 2 X 2 formation, his Bubble will now flip. So while this isn't something they do in real life, you could do that this year. If you line up and can tell they are blitzing hard from the left, and you're in Trips Right, you could motion W {LB} to the left and hit him on the Bubble going away from the defense. How well will this work? I don't know yet, since I don't have the game. But from what I can tell by the demo, this would be a possibility, although it isn't something teams do in real life.
I'm going to start a L-O-N-G post on the R&S, basically breaking down many of its concepts and the beginnings of it as we know it today, how it's changed subtly over the years and how you can use the few plays in the game to your advantage.
Alright, we have 5 pages in this thread right now, which is cool. That tells me there are some people interested in the offense and how they can use the minor sample of plays in the NCAA game in their offense. Those of you who know me from reading my posts about the R&S know that I can write some pretty lengthy articles on it and this one will be no different. It will be long! So sit back and get ready for a long and in-depth read.
I think most already know how the R&S came to be - Tiger Ellison - a High School coach in Ohio basically created the beginnings of it and Mouse Davis took it from there. Mouse coached High School ball in Oregon for 15 years and used this offense to take advantage of his smaller players and changing the game from a game of muscle and size to one of intelligence {finding openings in Zones/ knowing how to beat your man when in Man coverage} and speed, taking advantage of smaller, faster receivers and forcing team's to either cover them w/ LB's or 3rd and 4th string DB's.
During Mouse's time in High School his teams were 79-29 and won the 1973 State Championship as well as setting many records. From there he moved to :Portland_State:, where he went 42-24. In the 28 years prior to Mouse arriving at :Portland_State: the Vikings were a pathetic 90-152-7. Suffice to say that Mouse turned a perennial loser into a winner. In the 5 years after he left, the Vikings went 19-33-1.
In 1982 Mouse went to the CFL and installed his offense for the Toronto Argonauts, who went 2-14 the year prior to Mouse's arrival and they made it to the Grey Cup that year, losing 16-32, but the following year, still using the R&S, they won the Grey Cup, which is the Super Bowl for the CFL.
In 1984 Mouse joined the USFL and the Houston Gamblers. Jim Kelly and his "Mouseketeers" lit up the league, throwing for 5,219 yards and 44 TD passes. In two seasons in the R&S, Kelly compiled 9,842 yards and 83 TD passes, hitting on 63% of his passes and averaging a whopping 8.53 per attempt.
It was during these years that a lot of people stood up and took notice of the R&S Offense. And one of the things that I believe ultimately hurt it was that Mouse was very eager to teach it to other coaches. While this shows the kind of person he is, it also pulled back the curtain for defensive coaches. What was once a huge mystery to them now was better understood. It didn't shut the offense down, but it certainly didn't help by having defenses knowing what to look for.
From 1989 to 1996 the R&S was in the NFL, w/ the :Detroit_Lions: - :Atlanta_Falcons: and http://i49.tinypic.com/2mpitxk.jpg using it at various times. All three teams made the play-offs when using it and in 1991 they finished 9th, 5th and 4th in points scored respectively. All three had great success running the ball as well, which is one of the worst misconceptions about the offense. In 1991 the http://i49.tinypic.com/2mpitxk.jpg averaged 4.1 per carry and scored 16 TD's and gained 1,366 yards rushing. The :Atlanta_Falcons: averaged 4.1 per attempt, gaining 1,664 yards and scoring 6 TD's and the :Detroit_Lions:, w/ Barry Sanders, averaged 4.3, gaining 1,930 yards and scoring 19 TD's. And this was the worst year for the R&S team's in terms of running the football. They usually averaged between 4.4 and 5.1 per carry. That year the :Detroit_Lions: went 12-4, the :Atlanta_Falcons: went 10-6 and the http://i49.tinypic.com/2mpitxk.jpg went 11-5.
Through the 1996 season, when the :Atlanta_Falcons: w/ June Jones were still running the R&S full time, the offense was still the same as when Mouse Davis first came up w/ it. A few subtle changes were made along the way however, including the Back Shoulder Fade that is now so common in football. This happened by accident in 1985 on the http://i46.tinypic.com/1zt7o8.jpg when QB Bob Gagliano tried to hit a WR down near the goal-line. The CB jammed the receiver, forcing Gagliano to throw it to his back shoulder. As soon as he saw the play, June Jones said: "That's got to be a play!!!" And the Back Shoulder Fade or Stop Fade was born.
Once Jones arrived at :Hawaii: he began tinkering w/ the offense, including placing the QB in Shot-Gun full time and lining up in Trips more often and reducing and almost completely eliminating the motioning of receivers. When Jones took over in 1999, :Hawaii: was coming off an 0-12 season and had lost 18 games in a row and they were 118th out of 118 team's in total offense in 1998. In Jones' first year they finished 9-4, then the biggest turn around in college football history and their offense was # 2 in the country.
The Run & Shoot has been used by a lot of teams from little league to High School to College to the Pro level. It's won championships in High School and Div. II and III levels as well as in the CFL and made the play-offs year after year in the NFL and has set records everywhere it's been. As much as I respect June Jones and his desire to take down-trodden teams and turn them around, just once I would like to see him at a big-time school w/ big-time talent. He's a tremendous coach - as can be witnessed by his W-L record and all the former college and pro players who sing his praises. He knows how to attack defenses and he's a great teacher of the game. He excels at teaching technique and June Jones at some big-time school would result in a National Championship, in my opinion. When he took over at :Hawaii: they were on the verge of dropping the football program altogether, then in 9 years he had them in the :Sugar_Bowl:. At :SMU: he took a team that hadn't been to a bowl game in 25 years and has gone to 3 straight, winning 2 and defeating a heavily favored :Nevada: team 45-10.
So... w/ all that said, let's jump into the minimal amount of R&S plays in the game and how you can use these to your advantage.
Above I pretty much covered the Slide Route, so we'll look into the Go and Choice Routes. I will say this; EA has not properly implemented any of these plays, as they have left out too many of the options for the WR's to run. Perhaps it's their engine and it just can't handle it, but the reality is that in real life, there are more option routes that can be run than what is in the game. One small advantage you have is if you can read a defense and see - before the snap - what they are in, you can always Hot Route a guy to what he would do in real life.
The Choice Route is run out of Trips and is designed to get your best WR singled up against one DB on the side of the field opposite of the Trips side. He has the "Choice" of what route to run based on how the defender is playing him. Typically he will have 4 Route Options: An Out at 10-12 yards - a Skinny Post - A Comeback at 15 yards or a Go Route. All of this is based on how he is being defended. So, if the CB playing him is pressing him from inside - basically cutting him off from going inside - he sells the Go Route and at 10-12 yards he then cuts his route off to the Out. This is the base play on the Choice Route. However, let's say the DB is pressing him from the outside, closing off the Out Route, this is where the WR would read the FS and run either a Go or a Post Route.
The beauty in this play is that whatever the defense does will be wrong. And once you run this enough, it will force the defense to slide coverage over to that side of the field, thus opening the Trips side routes. One major problem in the game is trying to see the outside receivers. And let's face it, if you can't see them, you can't throw to them. Another problem is the middle receiver on the Trips side actually has several option routes to run, yet in the game he only has two, a Post or a Deep In. He should have a Go or Seam Route, Post, In and Hook, and the Hook can vary depending on where the defense is. So he basically reads the D and finds the opening between him and the QB, meaning his Hook could happen in a number of places at around 10-12 yards. Yet these aren't in the game. If you Hot Route him to a Hook Route, he will run the Hook and then just stand there even if a LBer is standing right in front of him. So again, total failure on EA's part of implementing this play correctly.
As I mentioned prior, I don't use the R&S in the game because it really isn't the R&S. However, when "practicing" I always look to the two inside guys on the Trips side. For one, I can see them and two, you have both a short and a deeper route to choose from. This year, w/ Super LB's out of the game and no more Psychic DB's, this play could be very good to use if you want to run it. You could even try and move your QB out of the pocket to see the outside WR, but know that doing this could result in more sacks.
Now for the Go Route. This is a play I just love because it is guaranteed to work against any defense you can imagine. Your first read is the inside slot receiver on the Trips side. He runs a quick out. You can gain 3 yards or 90 yards hitting him. It will work against any defense but is great against Cover 3, Cover 1, Man 2 Deep and any blitz they throw at you. You can even get this to work against Cover 2 if you throw it quickly, just remember the CB will be staying at home and a late throw - especially in an EA game - will result in a pick six.
On the Go Route both outside receivers run Go Routes. Their job is to get to the outside, even if the DB is pressing them from the outside, so they can clear space for the quick out and then they run a Fade/Go Route. EA has the single side receiver running a Curl Route. This is wrong. The only time he does not run a Go Route is if he cannot beat his guy deep, he cuts his route off and runs a Comeback at about 15 yards, driving back to the sideline at around 12 yards.
The middle receiver on the Trips side has several option routes, EA has him running a Seam/Go, a Post or a Hook. Again, this is wrong. He should run a Seam/Go, a Post or a Deep In, not a short Hook. You can Hot Route him to the Deep In, but know if you've read the defense wrong you will eliminate his other two Option Routes, thus hurting your chances w/ the play.
The Go Route is great to use as an audible IN THE GAME! Why? Because, if you see a full on blitz, you hit the inside WR on the Trips side for an easy gain. If you see one of the outside CB's blitzing, you hit that WR on the Go Route. You have to throw quickly before the FS or SS can get to him. You can also Hot Route the middle WR on the Trips side to a quick Slant over the middle against a Blitz or against Man.
For those of you interested in using the Run & Shoot in the game this year, do yourself a favor and go to the :Baylor: playbook and find the Shotgun HB Mid Screen. This is essentially a true Shovel Pass and works great against 3 man lines. I will be adding this to my playbook and hoping that I can audible to it from 5-Wide, because it can be very lethal. This adds one more true R&S play to your arsenal.
I truly wish that EA would give us more of the R&S in the game, because it is a beautiful offense that takes time to learn, but once learned can be very effective. If anyone has any questions feel free to ask in this thread or PM me. If you are on X-Box and want to "Lab" to help improve your passing game, I would be happy to do that too. Next w/ end I am flying to Philadelphia to sit front row at Roger Waters - The Wall Live. But after the 16th I'll be available just about anytime to lab.
Hoping this has provided some insight into the offense and I truly would love to dive into more of it, but it's rather useless when EA only has a few actual plays in the game. Perhaps someday they'll implement the entire thing. That would be a lot of fun!
Holy shit... I swear, one of these days, I'm going to read all this stuff Death. The R&S is INCREDIBLY fascinating to me, though the Air Raid has become my main center of attention what with WVU switching to it with the hiring of Holgorsen and all.
Death, just a sanity check here ('cause otherwise my brain is about to explode), but when you say Go Route, you mean the Go play that's in the R&S playbooks in game, not a Streak hot route, right? 'Cause whenever I read route, I think an individual route, not a play or concept.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Death
i think he's referencing both in these paragraphs. the play he's referring to is called 60 go, and obviously features the outside receiver(s) running a go/streak route.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffHCross
awesome writeup btw Dr D.
Yeah, I think I mainly got lost when he talked about using a Go Route as an audible. Wasn't sure if he meant a hot routed Streak or a 60 Go.Quote:
Originally Posted by baseballplyrmvp
Yes, in the game it's simply called: 60 Go. In real life it could be called several ways: Rip 60 Z Go, Load 60 X Go, Trips Right 60 Z Go, Trips Left 60 X Go, Early Rip 60 Z Go, Early Load 60 X Go... etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffHCross
Terminology can vary from coach to coach, but that's essentially how it will be called. So yes, when talking about the Go Route, I mean the 60 Go as it is in the game, NOT a Hot Route.
Yeah, I meant using 60 Go as an audible because of the quick pass to the inside slot receiver on the Trips side. In 5-Wide I use Inside Switch this way, it's a great play that has that one element of the 60 Go route, which I love.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffHCross
Like you, I have become more and more intrigued w/ the Air Raid and actually consider myself more of an Air Raid person now because of my love of Mike Leach and his style. His offense does, however, have some elements of the R&S in it, so when you consider learning more about the R&S, you'll see some similarities. Talking real life here, not EA life. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by morsdraconis
Thank you my man!!! Much appreciated!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by baseballplyrmvp
I'm not where close to as learned on the subject as you are, but, as a slight tangent on the subject of the Air Raid offense pertaining to the success of QBs from that system in the NFL, have you noticed a reason why QBs struggle coming from a system like the Air Raid or R&S offense when attempting to transition to the more complex offenses that most NFL teams run?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Death
I ask because I got into a pretty heated debate over that very fact when talking about the illogical notion that Robert Griffin will break the streak of unsuccessful NFL QBs that have come from an Air Raid and/or R&S system.
Actually, yes, I can provide some insight to this question, though I'm quite certain some won't agree w/ me. There were two R&S QB's who were hugely successful in college and failed miserably as pro's, and they both played for :Houston:. Andre Ware - Heisman winner, and David Klingler. Both were first round draft picks and neither did much of anything in the pro's. And because of their failures, ALL R&S QB's were labeled as "System Quarterbacks." It was a bad rap for guys ever since and something I find totally ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by morsdraconis
How they {The NFL} can blame someone today for the errors of two guys from the 1990's is beyond me, but they do. And I always hear the same excuses:
1: The Run & Shoot can make any QB look good
2: The Run & Shoot is simple and NFL offenses are not
3: The Run & Shoot spreads the field and in the NFL, they have to adjust to playing w/ a TE and a FB
Now, as to # 1, yes, the R&S can make a lot of QB's look better than they are simply because the offense creates many instances where WR's are wide open or at least more open than what one typically sees in the NFL. As far as # 2 goes, the R&S is anything but simple. When you have routes that may have as many as 12-16 reads depending on the defense, that takes someone w/ some intelligence and also requires a lot of work to get down.
As far as # 3, that I do agree with but I also feel that the NFL is very slow to change. When the R&S was in the NFL everybody hated it except the teams running it. The three teams that ran it all made the play-offs, but teams hated defending it as can be witnessed by comments by some of the greatest defenders of all time, guys like Rod Woodson and Howie Long.
I think that after Ware and Klingler the NFL just said: Screw these guys! I know a couple of Leach's QB's were given "shots" but they weren't given any time to grow and progress. B.J. Symons was drafted in the 7th round by the :Houston_Texans:. He was there for one year, in NFL Europe for one year, then on the :Chicago_Bears: for one year, back to NFLE for one year and then the Arena League until the team he was on folded.
Kliff Kingsbury was drafted by :NE_Patriots: in round 6, and spent his rookie year on IR, then was waived the next year, signed w/ the :New_Orleans_Saints: where he was on the practice squad, played on the :Denver_Broncos: and later the :New_York_Jets: before going to the CFL and is now a college coach as the OC for :Texas_A&M:.
Graham Harrell went undrafted, tried out for the :Cleveland_Browns:, went to the CFL, and is now on :Green_Bay_Packers: where he will be the backup to Aaron Rodgers this year. Coach Mike McCarthy has spoken out about how impressed he has been w/ Harrell. Harrell also pulled off an amazing comeback for the :Green_Bay_Packers: in last year's pre-season, leading them to 11 points in the final :30+ seconds, coming back from 13-21 to a 24-21 win.
Colt Brennan was drafted by :Wash_Redskins: in round 6, his rookie year he led all QB's in rating and completion percentage and led three 4th quarter comebacks in the pre-season and proved he could make all the throws. His second year, as he was fighting for the backup spot, he suffered two injuries and tried to play through them but ultimately was pulled off the field in the fourth pre-season game when it was evident he was too injured. He spent that year on IR. The following season Shanahan came in and kept Colt on the roster until after the first practice of training camp, then he was cut when they traded for John Beck, who's played like complete garbage his entire NFL career.
Chase Daniel, the QB at :Missouri:, is Drew Brees' backup and has been for a couple of years. As the NFL slowly starts to expand its horizons and use more spread formations and becomes more of a throwing league, I believe you'll see more Air Raid and R&S QB's getting a shot and succeeding at the NFL level. This year alone we saw RGIII and Brandon Weeden taken in the first round. Both ran spread offenses in college, w/ :Oklahoma_State: using the Air Raid during part of Weeden's career.
Mike Leach once quipped that the NFL doesn't have a clue when it comes to drafting QB's and whilst this didn't set well w/ NFL scouts, one has to agree w/ him to a certain extent. When guys like JaMarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, Joey Harrington, Jeff George and numerous others are taken high or first overall, and they either fail miserably {Russell} or take years to grow in maturity {George} you have to wonder just what does the NFL look for?
The answer is simple; they always look for the arm strength. Bill Walsh once said that arm strength was one of the last things he looked for in a QB. Footwork was his number one thing, leadership and accuracy were close behind. And when you see what Walsh did w/ Joe Montana you can clearly see that he knew what he was talking about. Montana was a guy very few teams would have taken and only the :San_Fran_49ers: were equipped to put him in an offense that suited him perfectly. And w/ that stroke of luck, Montana became arguably the greatest QB to ever play the game.
So I believe we are starting to see a change and the failures of Ware and Klingler are starting to be forgotten. Let's hope so... because to me, a wide open passing game is just a lot more fun!
I definitely think that part of the reason why no QB worth a damn (in the NFL stat-wise) has come from either of these offensive styles is because they haven't truly been given the opportunity to work out. The amount of QBs that come from the 4th round or lower and play at a high level in the NFL is astonishingly low, so, the byproduct of the stigma of coming from one of those offenses plus means they are drafted in those lower rounds and, thus, their likelihood of succeeding in the NFL is dramatically low.
All that said, my main proponent for not wanting my NFL team (Redskins) to draft someone (Griffin) from one of those offenses (Baylor HC Art Briles' [Mike Leach Disciple - as I'm sure you already knew] Air Raid offense) has, and always will be, the fact that the Air Raid offense, unlike the R&S offense, has simple reads. Mesh, Cross, Stick, Go, etc are such ridiculously simple reads that most QBs can quickly pick the offense up in the matter of one season (as shown by WVU's Geno Smith - who, btw, can't make a complex read to save his freakin' life and was the reason why the Pro offense that Bill Stewart was attempting to install was doomed from the start). They are made simple like that because college forces you to constantly have to reteach the same concepts over and over again as you get new kids on your roster and old ones graduate.
Combine the easy to learn offense (for both the QB and WR) with the fact that because the offense is so effective at getting players into space (along with the speed of it giving teams the ability to have more opportunities for those plays in space to happen), and you have guys getting WIDE open in space where the QB doesn't have to make a perfect throw, just a good throw, for the play to be a big gain.
It'll be interesting, in hindsight, to see what happens with this new crop of QBs coming from these offenses to a NFL that's starting to incorporate more and more of these style of offenses into their offensive gameplan.
The one thing that will really help is the fact that the NFL is making it easier each year to throw the ball. DB's are not allowed to touch a WR, along with the fact that Safeties and LB's cannot be enforcers over the middle anymore so any WR is willing to go across the middle. I also think this is why we are seeing so many WR's become successful in the NFL that are drafted low or not even drafted at all. Add to the fact that QB's are willing to hang in the pocket longer because they do not have to worry as much about paying for holding onto the ball, and it is just a recipe for success.
I appreciate your response and I think that Griffin III is going to be better than Luck as a pro. Call it a hunch. Part of my feeling on that is watching interviews w/ both of these guys and w/ RGIII I see something special, something intangible that I probably can't even explain, but I know it when I see it and I've seen it in other guys like Montana - Marino - Stabler - Elway - E. Manning etc... he just has that IT that makes people gravitate towards him and makes them want to be better.Quote:
Originally Posted by morsdraconis
So for you, as a :Wash_Redskins: fan, I think you have much to look forward to.
As far as the Air Raid, one of the beauties of that offense is that they have a small number of plays and they run them out of various formations. They can run the same play out of 4-wide, 3-wide w/ a TE, 3-wide w/ 2 RB's, 2-wide w/ 2 TE's and one RB and even 5-wide. That's one of the reasons the QB's so easily pick up the system, because, as Mike Leach said, 'It's easier to tell someone where to stand than to tell them a new route to run.'
I know this; when the R&S was in the NFL it succeeded. It succeeded in the USFL too. And I believe the Air Raid could succeed in the NFL as well. Whether or not Shanahan brings any Air Raid concepts into his scheme remains to be seen. I know this about Shanahan; he's stubborn. So I rather doubt he'll add any new wrinkles that suit RGIII and help ease him in to the NFL game, but if he were smart, he would add about 12-15 Air Raid plays and mix those in w/ his version of the West Coast Offense.
I'm pulling for RGIII big time. And like I said, in the end, I believe you'll be happy he was their choice.
I would generally agree with you, were we talking about Case Keenum or any of the other QBs who put up ungodly numbers without actually displaying above average talent on the field. I thought Griffin showed quite a solid head on his shoulders, which I think is what truly makes the difference between a legitimate QB and a QB who is the product of the system.Quote:
Originally Posted by morsdraconis
I also think it's worth mentioning (again) that Mike Shanahan invented the Shallow Cross, which is the one of the main concepts used in the Air Raid. So if anyone can take an Air Raid QB and make them into an NFL QB, I think it's Shanahan. Think being the key word.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Death
I have done a bootleg, cut and paste Run and Shoot in the Madden Online Leagues that I am in. Ive managed to make Tuna Sandwiches like Mark Sanchez and Kevin Kolb, look like halfway decent QBs. :nod:
Ill be doing a ton of R&S and Air Raid vids, once the game gets in my hands. Mind if I slap em on this thread?
youll notice a couple threads where ive slapped alot of your vids on the site :)Quote:
Originally Posted by nykia31
the more r&s guru's on here, the better, nykia. love listening to the vids that you make.Quote:
Originally Posted by nykia31
:+1:Quote:
Originally Posted by baseballplyrmvp
Sorry I didn't notice this earlier, but yes, anything anyone wants to contribute, please feel free to do so. I found a great article discussing the Air Raid, complete w/ videos, and I may start a thread on that offense and just paste the link. It's essential reading to anyone interested in the Air Raid and also very educational for anyone interested in football and particularly, the passing game.Quote:
Originally Posted by nykia31
:drool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Death
Please do!
:+1:!!Quote:
Originally Posted by morsdraconis
Linky linky on article? :D That sounds like an awesome resource that I would love to read up on!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Death
Oh wow, that's awesome! Thanks :).Quote:
Originally Posted by HWill
That's the link! The videos are great to watch and some are quite lengthy, but if you want to really learn about this offense {Air Raid} then this is essential. I may just start a new Air Raid thread, so it doesn't get buried in the R&S thread. Thanks HWill!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by HWill
Awesome! Thanks Hwill! I have SO much shit to do though so it's gonna be a while before I get around to reading that. Might end up doing some of that at work. ;)