In a case like this, I doubt we ever get all the "facts". Likewise, I could not see myself rooting for another team besides the U.
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In a case like this, I doubt we ever get all the "facts". Likewise, I could not see myself rooting for another team besides the U.
The problem is when I still fight and root for psu and not wanting the NCAA to get involved in criminal issues within universities I'm seen as an apologist for the tragedy instead of a fan of a football team whose players had nothing to do with this tragedy.
The screw ups of some individuals does not make it a whole. I'm not unsympathetic to the situation, my wife knows I'll kill anyone that touches my children and it has been discussion many times at night. Given this tragedy, then recently the father in Texas that killed his daughters molester this topic has been at the top of many peoples mind. Just remember the first part of this post to get my perspective.
One reason college football is so great! I'm so looking forward to the start of the season.Quote:
Originally Posted by ryby6969
I am not questioning your feelings on what happened. As a father myself, I know how you feel. What I am saying is if what is in the report is true, then Paterno is no better than Sandusky and in many ways much worse. Will we ever know for sure how much Paterno knew? I highly doubt it but I just do not see a man of his stature at PSU and in the state of Penn. not knowing something.
Being so close to the situation that's the part that i struggle with. How much did he know, what did he know?Quote:
Originally Posted by ryby6969
This is the hardest thing to wrap my head around. My neighbor (who is still jobless since this tragedy cost him his job as speed and strength coach at PSU) can't wrap his mind around it all either and he knew Joe and everything. He knew nothing like this was happening and may I add when the report said that they interviewed most of the former staff I gotta call BS. I've been told by Jeremy that 6 coaches and both strength coaches and 2 grad assistants were not interviewed which makes it far less then most like the report stated :)
He is so pissed that he is being lumped into knowing more when he didn't and this tragedy is affecting his job resume and possibilities big time. It really hits close to home do to speak.
5 men do not make an entire university and all the GOOD that it has done over the past. I'm a Penn State grad, fan of all Penn State sports and huge supporter of the football team. I would never root or support any other SCHOOL. These things that came out do not tarnish my views and experiences of the INSTITUTION and the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of proud alumni that do GOOD things every single day, Penn State has the largest run student philanthropy in the country and this year alone raised over $10,000,000 for pediatric cancer or the Football team itself has a philanthropy that is 10 years in the running for raising money for Kidney Cancer.Quote:
Originally Posted by ryby6969
Are my views of Joe Paterno and the 4 other men involved in this tarnished? ABSOLUTELY and I think they should face the full LEGAL ramifications that are allowed. Should the entire university be damned, in my opinion... No. Will the university itself find itself in some legal issues, probably to me that's fine. Should the football team be given the death penalty, this is the one that bothers me the most. As Snoop kind of eluded to, the main issue is this is what almost EVERY SINGLE person is talking about. Kind of like when this all broke and everyone was talking about Joe and not Sandusky, the actual monster in this whole thing. Everyone is saying, give the death penalty to the football team instead of saying...... Those 4 FUCKERS should be in jail.
Honestly I don't know where I stand on the death penalty. A lot of people are referencing SMU and USC and OSU and saying they did so less compared to PSU and got royally punished. To me these things are even comparable. All of those other issues were directly football related in paying players and giving players improper benefits which is violations of the NCAA. These things that have happened here are CRIMINAL in nature and to me don't involve playing the game of football. Some argue they were trying to protect the name of the football program but I don't completely buy that. To me there were protecting the name of the entire university and frankly I feel, kind of like you mentioned Roy, with the parents of molesters or murderers or whatever, they didn't want to believe it.
I guess my biggest thing is how is the death penalty serving any justice and punishing the people that were at fault? I'm all for punishing the people that were at fault and think they should get the fullest extent.
You just said you couldn'tQuote:
Originally Posted by ryby6969
Quote:
If this were to happen at Miami, I would not be able to be a fan of the school anymore.
I suppose that depends on what your definition of "allowed" means.Quote:
Originally Posted by psusnoop
(1) Do I think Joe said "Go rape those boys Sandusky! Here use the shower!" Etc....? - No.
(2) Do I think Joe was given credible evidence that his assistant coach was raping boys and he did next to nothing to get to the bottom of it and didn't care enough about the allegations that he didn't fire him immediately and/or stopped letting him from hanging round the program thus enabling further rapes to occur? Yes on at least 2 occassions (1998 and 2001)
The only questions in my mind re: #2 is (1) did Sandusky (or someone else) convince Joe that these allegations were 100% not true? - I've seen no evidence to indicate that and seems rather unlikely given the other e-mails from higher ups who all but admit they know it is going on and do nothing to stop it and (2) why did Joe "allow" this to go on under his watch? - One can only speculate as Joe is gone and there are no documents (e-mails from Joe) however, given the other e-mails from everyone else in power places within PSU one can only assume Joe was on board with their intent as well which was basically to cover this up for fear of the damage it would do to the program.
Look it's ALWAYS "impossible" to prove what is in someone's head threw direct 100% evidence (absent a video tape recording the incident as it is occurring). Moreover, its ALWAYS possible to construct a theory of how someone didn't do something wrong. (i.e. Aliens came to State College and temporarily replaced the old Joe Pa with a clone Joe Pa on the days that he was informed of the rapes as the real Joe Pa would have surely put a bullet in Sandusky's head). True the report cannot rule out Aliens came to PA and temporarily abducted Joe Pa. However, "Circumstantial evidence" can be compelling/damning as well.
Clearly Paterno in all likelyhood knew (who else could "Coach" be?) of allegations of sexual misconduct in May of 1998. Yet Sandusky continues to coach at PSU until December 28, 1999 (1 1/2 years later). Moreover, even after he "retired" he was allowed access to the program to rape boys.Quote:
May 13, 1998, 2:21 p.m. Curley emailed Schultz 10 days after Victim 6 was assaulted by Sandusky in the shower."Anything new in this department? Coach is anxious to know where it stands."
Testimony before the Grand Jury:
That's probably grounds for perjury with the only issue of whether he "misremembered".Quote:
Question to Paterno: "Other than the [2001] incident that Mike McQueary reported to you, do you know in any way, through rumor, direct knowledge or any other fashion, of any other inappropriate sexual conduct by Jerry Sandusky with young boys?"
Paterno: "I do not know of anything else that Jerry would be involved in of that nature, no. I do not know of it. You did mention -- I think you said something about a rumor. It may have been discussed in my presence, something else about somebody. I don't know. I don't remember, and I could not honestly say I heard a rumor."
There are only two possible explanations for that testimony (1) Paterno knew of the 1998 incident and attempted to cover it up; (2) He somehow couldn't remember an allegation that he was previously aware of his assistant coach molesting children.
Now I am not privy to Paterno's mental capabilities in 2012 but unless he was suffering from mental illness/disease I find it hard to believe someone could forget an allegation that your assistant coach was molesting children. If he was suffering from mental disease/illness when did his symptoms begin and WTF was he doing coaching the football team while suffering from the disease.
It's another SAD day and for many/most PSU fans you will probably NEVER be satisfied that the "truth" has come out. We can only do the best we can with the current technology/abilities of investigators. Moreover, with most of the key players either dead and/or in jail or soon will be in jail they are NEVER going to tell you the truth.
Yes, but if it happened at Miami I would NOT be a fan anymore. I would be ashamed of the school and what it let transpire. I never said anything about the death penalty. This goes way beyond football and should make people realize how insignificant football really is in the grand scheme of things. I do believe if these accusations are true, Paterno should be erased from the record books IMO. I made a comment because my problem is with the people who think that Paterno is the victim in all of this. He is far from the victim even if none of the accusations about him are true.Quote:
Originally Posted by psuexv
Just for the record, I am not bashing Penn State or any of its students/Alumni. One thing I will say though, it makes me feel bad as a human that there are people out there who would worry more about a Football Program and their "reputation" rather than the well being of children.(not you guys, the 4+ people involved)
CLW I gotta say this again regarding the 98 incident, No way Joe covered it up unless you think the police and DA were completely puppets in this because they are the ones that didn't file charges here. Not Joe not reporting something.
Hey maybe he knew maybe he didn't. Misremembering worked well for someone else recently :D I kid I kid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by psusnoop
Enough of this depressing shit, get your ass on NCAA so I can whip it! :D
Another thing to remember during this 2001 stuff is the horrendous record of psu those surrounding years. Just another sick twist to all this mess.
Weird thing to add to all of this is the attempted firing of Joe by Spanier and the BoT in the early 2000's and him telling them to pound sand. Many around here always felt he had something on the BoT and Spanier and some thought this may be it. While it doesn't appear to be the case we will never know for sure since Joe is gone.
Funny hahah no kidding I just feel so obligated to make sure the facts stay facts like the 98 incident :DQuote:
Originally Posted by ryby6969
I've been fishing with the kids since 330pm (and following the boards and emails) while trying to get away from this it's tough though.
Well said :+1: :clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by psuexv
Well he certainly allowed Sandusky to coach/remain on the staff for another 1 1/2 years and then allowed him to stay around the showers for another 10+ years.Quote:
Originally Posted by psusnoop
Yep and that would have to be the defense and of course it all depends on whether the jury believes the defendant or not.
Completely agree and it's mind numbing to me right now, all of this is.Quote:
Originally Posted by CLW
Like E said, psu is more then those 4 buffoons that made horrific decisions in this horrendous tragedy. Not sure how anyone can feel good about the decisions that were made.
Agreed I hold no ill will towards the University itself (its an entity and thus cannot act on its own behalf and relies on its human/employees to act for it) or for the countless others at the University who undoubtedly contribute greatly to society.Quote:
Originally Posted by psusnoop
Unfortunately, it appears that the reputation of PSU's football program was more important than that of the well being of children (at least to those in power at the relevant time frame). Several of these people will be brought to justice criminally. Several of these people (and Penn State as an institution) will be brought to justice through civil lawsuits. (all of these WILL happen its just a matter of when in my mind and the final determination of "justice" is the only remaining question there i.e. prison length and/or amount of $ to be paid to the victims).
The only thing really left to be decided is if (and if so to what extent) the football program (and possibly the whole athletics department) is punished. Honestly, I just cannot see the NCAA not laying down some form of punishment for this.
Perhaps some sort of ban and/or even a requirement that ALL/Certain % of $ generated by the football program for X period of time be donated to a well known charity that helps children that have been sexually/physically abused.
The NCAA's/college athletics as a whole's reputation has been hit hard with its rulings re: Newton; U$C; Tatoo U; One and Done Thugs; UNC Academics; Penn State sex scandal etc....
IMHO the NCAA is going to have to step it up and save the current system or it will eventually fall apart (and I'll let each individual decide whether that is a good or bad thing)
Not being from the Pennsylvania area or the north, I still think highly of Joe Paterno and think he is still one of the greatest influences on college football in history!!! I dont think this should tarnish a man who spent his life at one university...
yeah, his record was clean until he was at least 70 years old.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarhead10
Washing that away or saying you want no association with that is ridiculous.
he was an elderly man who made a mental mistake. I wont hate an entire schools history just for that. Life goes on, people fail. Such is life as it moves forward.
...Its Sandusky who destroyed lives . Up until Sandusky entered Paterno's life, Paterno did many great things for alot of people.
its wrong from alot of angles and alot of people are wrong for maybe not stringing Sandusky up early on. But the football team and the majority of the college dont have crap to do
with the actions of Sandusky.