Once again in regards to grass, bands and cannons...a COMPLETELY separate set of developers, programmers, etc. do these from gameplay.....COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.
Once again in regards to grass, bands and cannons...a COMPLETELY separate set of developers, programmers, etc. do these from gameplay.....COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.
I hate Pac-Man. I've never heard of Turtles.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffHCross
This we know JB. But why couldn't those assets be used on something else with different developers, programmers, etc? I mean, they're still WAY far away in the presentation aspect from where they could be (there's no doubt about that) but spending those resources on little things to upgrade the presentation instead of pooling those resources towards a ginormous increase in presentation just doesn't make any sense to me. Why spend all that time on small things (grass, bands, cannons, etc) instead of taking all the time spent on those little things and upgrading the visual presentation for dynasty aspects (creating a more in depth offseason setup), or something else a bit more substantial?Quote:
Originally Posted by JBHuskers
Again, it just seems to me that their modus operandi is a bunch of little things that all add up to a bunch of nothing.
Nothing outside of the first blog post, which talked about HDR and the grass, has been officially announced, not even cannons. Well, except the highlighted new plays, I guess. There's still plenty of time for announcements.Quote:
Originally Posted by morsdraconis
I'm guessing you just didn't put three other words in front of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by steelerfan
http://cache.kotaku.com/assets/resou...Arcadegame.jpg
Actually, you didn't. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by JeffHCross
I never played the arcade version of TMNT. I wasn't crazy about the NES version though.
Each game has a budget in the development cycle. So taking someone away from presentation and adding someone to gameplay a) really doesn't help things anyways and b) is more expensive. The gaming development world just doesn't work that way. If you take away everything else and focus on one area, that isn't going to give them anything to market. You, Mors and Beatn are the lowest common denominator when it comes to how they market and make the game profitable. If they market to the lowest common denominator, you end up developing a game like Backbreaker and only sell 60k copies. In order to get the things that we have wanted over the years, the game has to be profitable, in order for the game to be profitable, it has to be marketed to the widest spectrum of an audience.Quote:
Originally Posted by morsdraconis
Now you're making a completely different argument with the comparison with dynasty aspects instead of the argument of gameplay from before. The budget cost for an entire visual presentation over is going to be pretty high. So is the risk of breaking things. So making these minor adjustments into what is already a great presentation is probably the smartest way to go about working with your budget.
I know what they're suing for. It's stupid on their part and they have no chance of winning. I've said that numerous times. If they had any sense they would've used the angle I'm coming from, which probably wouldn't have gotten anywhere, either...but it at least makes more sense.
I don't completely buy that. The games on PS2 didn't have the issues that I listed earlier, so I don't think it's really that hard to program correctly. Like I said, I'm more or less sold on the fact that they are issues with the engine and outside of creating an entirely different engine(which they're obviously not going to do), they're not really sure how to take care of them. The AI is what needs the work, and as soon as they get that solved, they're on the road to having themselves a great game. Good AI is a benefit to casual, hardcore, and all players alike, so it should be near the top of their agenda as far as I'm concerned.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBHuskers
LOL developing on the PS3 is just a tad different.Quote:
Originally Posted by I OU a Beatn
Alright. Sure didn't seem like it, but alright.Quote:
Originally Posted by I OU a Beatn
It is, JB, but not substantially. It doesn't explain everything on his list.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBHuskers
i'll take 50 bucks....
Normally, I'd buy that. However, it's also being developed on 360, too, which is much similar to the PS2...and the issues still exist there. Besides, EA is a huge development/publishing team. One of the biggest in the world. They have access to the best in the industry. This isn't a one year problem. This has been a constant problem(for some of the issues) for going on 6 years now. Besides, most of the issues I have a problem with is with the AI, which shouldn't be all that different than what was present on the PS2 versions. Between '07-'11 on PS3 and 360, they have YET to get run blocking from shotgun correctly programmed. They have YET to get the pass rush/blitzes to where they should be. '08 was way too fast and easy to get pressure. '09 there was none at all. '10 there was slightly more than none. '11 there was just slightly more than '10 with blitzes rarely ever getting home and the only hope of pressure is to rush the DEs to the far outside.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBHuskers
Just like the zone coverage. They were better in '09 and '10 than they were in '11. That's not an issue with developing on hardware, that's an issue with their programming. It's even been narrowed down to a cause. When the ball is snapped from one of the hashes, the defense does not react to the proper zones. That's 100% a programming error with the AI. Another issue that has been going on this entire generation is the over effectiveness of outside runs. '08 started that trend. EVERYONE ran sweeps, off tackle, counters, and stretches to the outside because it was unstoppable. I remember instead of people throwing a Hail Mary at the end of a half/game, they'd run a freakin' toss play and actually succeed. That was still an issue in '09 and '10, although a lot less of one, and then it because a bigger problem in '11 because the defense doesn't react correctly to an outside run as they ALWAYS get sucked into the LOS or the pulling lineman. Every time.
I have no doubt these issues can be fixed, but my only lingering question is will they and how long will it take?
You said you want as real as possible, and (save for SS) all of those things add to a more realistic game. So that logic that youll never use or dont care about it is flawed.Quote:
Originally Posted by morsdraconis
You ARE part of the main target audience! But when you say I want EA to hear me, I have all the fixes, and then go off about how stupid the game plays while they are posting graphic improvements you lose credibility. (not necessarily you specifically mors, I am talking generally speaking).
Go read the article about why line play will never be realistic in football games again. Apparently on BB the line play was the best, most realistic line play to date, and yet did you get it??? Do you play it??? Would you play it if it had ncaa team branding on the helmets??? Its about more than realistic gameplay. Its about the entire experience. Its ALL about the small stuff! And the big stuff too. Wait till gameplay stuff comes out to bash gameplay if it happens that its not what you wanted. Thats ok. Bashing gp while graphics are being talked about (and good ones at that), is just simple minded babble.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayrah
football games were made for people who like football. Better blocking will always beat better grass as a choice...quite frankly, I still want 1970s astroturf as a choice.
You don't need a choice for astroturf, thats what we have! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ram29jackson
The point is that blocking WAS improved last year, and I am willing to bet it will be improved again this year, if only by the upgraded animations and movement through the engine making it better. Regardless, we wont know till gameplay talk comes out.
EA COULD wait until June to start releasing info and start with gameplay so that everyone who wants gameplay can get that info first, and not complain about the small additions that make the game more than just stick figures on a blue screen playing "real" football. But instead we get a glimpse of the game in March and April, before they are even close to done with gameplay improvements. They are still working! They arent done with the game and just leaking info bit by bit. They arent done improving blocking, or coverage or any of it.... Why would they tell us about unfinished improvements???? We'd still be bashing them!!!!
Also, if you are a real fan of ANY sport, and football especially, then you are a fan of the small stuff. All the little stuff that makes football what it is. Interactive Pylons, interactive Grass, splashing water, skid marks in the snow, real looking jerseys, realistic lighting, etc, are all part of what makes football special, without that stuff, I don't care how good the gameplay is, it's going to take away from the atmosphere of football saturdays.
I agree with 98% of what Jayrah said. Well said, man. :nod:
The small stuff is great...IF the core game play(which I'm confident we can all agree is the most important part) is up to standards. Like I said earlier, the really annoying thing is that they're just a few fixes away from having a really awesome game(and have been since '09), but they just can't seem to get those particular 4 or 5 issues ironed out.
A small thing that has always bugged me is the lack of atmosphere. For example, whenever I'm the home team and I'm on a breakaway touchdown run, I expect the crowd to get louder. I just don't talk about it because I do want to see the core game play fixed first.
Well, maybe I'm being an optimist, but so far there's no indication on whether or not the core gameplay fixes that we still need (and I agree with you that they're needed) have been made. They've said nothing about gameplay. Some people have taken that to mean that this is the 'fluff' year. I think those people are just jumping overboard at the first sign of water. They've only made one announcement so far (ignoring the 25 plays), and cannons wasn't even it.Quote:
Originally Posted by I OU a Beatn
I guess what I'm saying is that people (not looking at you, I_OU, you just happened to say something similar) need to stop treating cannons as an announced feature and more as community involvement for accuracy.
:nod: :nod: :nod: EXACTLYQuote:
Originally Posted by jeffhcross
But it's fodder for those who love to bitch, to bitch.
Bitchers??Quote:
Originally Posted by JBHuskers
I don't care about the cannons. I never once said a word about the cannons. I know you're not pointing me out directly, and although I rarely say anything about it...I do, for the most part, have the same mentality as the "bitchers." Why? Because I've been waiting on these fixes for 5 years, so I don't have to wait to hear about the game play changes before I realize that the things I've been waiting years to get fixed...probably aren't going to be fixed. That may be the negative Nancy in me, but oh well. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by JeffHCross
My best suggestion, in all honesty, if you find no enjoyment playing NCAA Football - don't buy it at release. Wait for reviews, community feedback etc. I am still playing and enjoying NCAA 11 (I don't trade it in before it's ever even patched). My experience with 11 wasn't so good early on because of some dynasty issues, had I traded it in for Madden, I wouldn't have enjoyed 11 (patches fixed some dynasty issues). As someone who only plays randoms online, why subject yourself to what you are sure won't be right until you have some feedback? If the feedback is good, buy it. If not, look for post-patch feedback and evaluate the situation again.Quote:
Originally Posted by I OU a Beatn
I believe it was just before the Locomotion engine last season was announced, that everyone was whining about how terrible the movement and cutting and momentum was, because there was no good engine out to support that. And BAM! Locomotion came out as an announced feature! Now all of that stuff is a much bigger, better part of the game. You give up hope too easily without a real base, due to the massive improvements and changes to the dev team last year. Yes, I suppose you have that right, but it doesn't make sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by I OU a Beatn
Madden then talks about improving their zone and core defense, and NCAA owned Madden's booty last year by incorporating everything Madden had in it and much MUCH MORE! Why wouldn't you think that NCAA is working on fixing the game up with the issues that you've addressed? There is talk amongst the devs on this very site that zones aren't good and they know it's an issue, and that man is overpowered and that's a known issue. They admit it needs fixing, why wouldn't you think they'll try and fix it? And don't tell me "well they've known it for years and they haven't done anything blah blah". That's not at all fair. They never admitted that was a problem (yeah I know they knew it was), but they wouldn't openly admit that as a problem if they weren't planning on looking into fixing it, they would deflect to other problems that they were looking at. That's how I would do business anyway.
Line interaction was worked on quite a bit last year, and defense is already being improved with new plays. I am more optimistic than I ever have been this gen on defense becoming a more serious part of the ball game. Is it going to get perfected this year? Nope, prolly not close by our standards. But I think it's getting closer (heck even if it WAS just new plays being inserted it's a good step), and that's all my $60 ask.
Also there's no possible way that they were only a few fixes away from a great game in 09 or 10....We finally got a cycle with several fixes last year and we're still on em that it's not close to right.
lol at this ridiculous argument. I got the email, and deleted it. sorry, but I prefer tax dollars to go to someplace else. I don't complain about money spent for a game, the chance of it being bad is the chance you take when you.. buy it. I hated 08, 09 and partially 10 ... so I played 2K, COD or something else. Not very hard to ignore a bad football game, EA has not and will not force me to play their product cause it's the only football game on the market. For the record, I got Madden 11 more than 3 weeks before release, realized that it sucked, but I had fun getting it early.
Because I'm a college football junky that needs my fix. This is the one game, good or bad, that I will buy every year. I also play randoms because it's what I find fun. I haven't been able to get a challenge out of the CPU since online came out in '04. I can put it on Heisman and it still isn't a challenge for me. The challenge for me is tournaments, online games against randoms, etc...I like the head to head chess battle as well as whoever has the best "user skills."Quote:
Originally Posted by steelerfan
I just grew up with that. Like I said, between '04 and '07 on PS2, I logged close to 2,500 COMPLETED online ranked games.
Besides, the random players aren't the issue I have. You don't have to be a random to expose a zone defense that isn't properly programmed, or bad outside run pursuit angles by the AI.
@Jayrah, new plays isn't going to fix the defense. Zone defense has been a huge problem pretty much every game this generation. The AI is just completely messed up, and it has nothing to do with the play. If the ball is on the hash, the defenders will literally go to the wrong spot on the field which creates these massive throwing lanes and makes defense against a capable human player impossible.
My point was not who/how you play.
I know what your point was. Your point was to wait until the game come out and listen to the reviews. That's flawed for 2 reasons:Quote:
Originally Posted by steelerfan
1. The reviews for the game have been great the past few years because reviewers only pay attention to the casual stuff. None of them pay attention to how line play is, or how well zone coverage is designed, etc..I could listen to other users, but again, that is so subjective that it's almost not worth my time to even read it.
2. As I said, I'm a football junkie. As it is, there's only ONE place every year I can attempt to get that fix. EA Sports has a complete lock on the college football/NFL game market. Compare that to shooters. I got Black Ops and it was terrible. You know why that didn't bother me one bit? Because I have a billion other different choices from different developers that have designed something that might work a little better. That's why I don't like that EA has a lock on things. $1,000 says that if they did lose the exclusivity for college football and there was competition, we would've seen all those issues fixed probably 2 or 3 games ago.
I know brotha-man! Im not sayin you're wrong, and I dont disagree with you on the issues of gp. Im sayin let the news for the correct issue play out a little bit before you get all worked up that its not in this seasons rendition and never will be because we've never seen it. Something on defense is being worked on for the first time in years, so it stands to reason there will be some gp work done to accompany that.Quote:
Originally Posted by I OU a Beatn
:D yes that's my word :PQuote:
Originally Posted by steelerfan
Or, like I said, get community feedback. Let it simmer a couple of weeks (don't go on the initial OMG!!! posts). I'm sure there must be someone who has an opinion you'd trust on this.Quote:
1. The reviews for the game have been great the past few years because reviewers only pay attention to the casual stuff. None of them pay attention to how line play is, or how well zone coverage is designed, etc..I could listen to other users, but again, that is so subjective that it's almost not worth my time to even read it.
However, with your point #2, it's obvious that a) you know it will suck and be broken, b) you will buy it anyway, c) you will shelf/trade it before any patches are released (sadly, this is a huge mistake with any sports title nowdays and I'm not suggesting that patches fixed everything last year, lol). That's certainly your right.
This is true. It's just something that's been wrong for so long that I can't help but be a little skeptic it's going to get fixed. I'm not going to judge the game until it's released. Everything I've said so far is based on past releases, not NCAA '12. Like I said, I'm not one of those people that bitch about it just for fun...I actually WANT the game to be improved. After all, I buy it every year on release day, so I definitely want it to be as good as it can be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayrah
I didn't actually get rid of it until all the patches/tuner sets had been released and I was sure I wasn't going to get any enjoyment out of the game. That applies to all games I buy, actually, not just sports titles(except BB...I wanted nothing to do with that).Quote:
Originally Posted by steelerfan
Like I said, the only reason I buy it every year regardless of the quality is because of how much I love football video games. I usually do get my $60 worth out of it, I just want something that I WANT to play for the entire year until the next release rather than a month or two.