Kotaku: NCAA Football 13 Was More of the Same Rather Than Anything New

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Originally Posted by Kwizzy

The problem is I very highly doubt that they start over again on the next gen of consoles so the same core issues will be there.

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Unless the next generation of consoles shares a significant amount of hardware and interfaces with the current generation, they're going to have to "start over" to an extent. That's why series get reset between generations ... it's the hardware that requires it, not a willing choice of the development teams.

However, some code can be transferred. It's debatable if some of the things you mentioned will "need" to be touched. For better or worse.

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Originally Posted by Rudy

Yeah, I think that was a very unfair way to label the games as being too similar.

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Personally, I also think it sends the wrong message. That presentation suggests that significantly different visuals is the only way to distinguish iterations of a series. That's the last thing I care about, personally.

It also flies in the face of basic, foundational game development theory. One of the rules, for lack of a better word, of game design is that you should be able to play your game with blocks for characters (think Pong, Atari Football, things like that), and the game should still be enjoyable. The message is that the graphics are not what should make a game fun or entertaining. They're to complement the experience, not create it.

So, I believe, that a logical extension of that is that graphics are not what make two titles different, but gameplay and features.

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Originally Posted by JeffHCross

(think Pong, Atari Football, things like that), and the game should still be enjoyable.

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Why bring up Atari Football? You should have said Tecmo Bowl! I truly believe Tecmo Bowl was the greatest football game ever created for its time. Now I may have liked that a lot more because I was much younger and enjoyed a simple game. But I wonder how much more young kids would enjoy NCAA Football or Madden if they had an Arcade option. No more picking from a complicated play book - just have them pick from four or five defenses by formation (which is suggested to them). Defend run up the middle, run outside, zone, man, blitz. Make all the moves arcade like - big hits, big jukes, big catches and interceptions. There used to be a market for casual fans that liked NFL Street. Why not create another mode within your own game to provide a similar experience? I know a cousin of mine doesn't like football but he loved the last NFL Street game that came out. I've actually played a little Madden with my kids co-op style but there is no way they can play each other since it's way too complicated for them.

One of the highlights of those types of games, especially Tecmo, was how the great players really stood out. They would be impossible to miss. As it stands now in Madden or NCAA, you don't have to gameplan around the great players. Just do what you do every game and it's good enough. I do miss how the impact players in NCAA 06 forced you to account for them at all times.

And I would love it if NCAA made a Tecmo camera angle. High in the air, side scrolling and classic! Most wouldn't like it because it's zoomed out but I would love to have it as an option. As long as you can see 20 yards downfield it would be fun. Now that would give the game a different feeling. This would NOT be like Madden's broadcast cam the last couple years because that is much harder to play with (not over the top and not enough vision downfield).

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Originally Posted by Rudy

Why bring up Atari Football?

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The idea proposed by the text I read was that you should be able to replace your graphics with, essentially, block-like placeholders (so, for 3D graphics, literally a cube with no discernible features), and the game should still be enjoyable. While Tecmo Bowl is vastly a superior game to Atari Football, Atari Football has vastly inferior graphics. Note my other example was Pong, after all :)

We are showing our age Jeff! I remember actually playing Pong. I also remember the old Atari 2600 games like Pitfall and stuff like that. I wonder if today's kids even realize we only had ONE button on those old controllers.

I was looking at some of the sliders that NBA 2K13 has. In addition to sliders they also have Attribute sliders. While some of these are more like gameplay sliders, others certainly are not. I will list them below. Have you game changers ever talked to the developers about giving us more options outside of sliders? Currently we do have speed threshold but what about options for agility, acceleration, etc? Would EA be open to something like that? For some reason EA refuses to use their tuning files in their football games so give me that power to fix what I want. Or provide different in game settings of Normal vs Heavy or Light player momentum. Those would add a huge difference in feel to the game and avoid the stale feeling.

NBA 2K13
Attributes
Quickness
Vertical
Strength
Stamina
Speed
Durability
Hustle
Ball Handling
Hands
Dunking Ability
On-Ball Defense
Stealing
Blocking
Offensive Awareness
Defensive Awareness
Offensive Rebounding
Defensive Rebounding
Consistency
Fatigue Rate
Injury Frequency
Injury Severity

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Originally Posted by SmoothPancakes

Now bdoughty, I'm assuming you're probably joking about that, but I'm sure some dumbass on the EA forums or wherever else is thinking that same line of thinking and will be bitching about it not being the game.

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Assuming I was joking. :D Of course I was.

I think it's impossible to make more than 51% of the people happy. IF EA made major changes to the game you would have the other 49% going nuts that they've removed some feature here or there or they've change it here or there and there would still be complaining. In the end, it's a football video game. They've been in the busy for a while now, they can package it however they want but from year to year it's not going to change that dramatically. It's funny, let's just say, if you refined the game to fix everything everyone wanted, then the next year's version would be complained about that it hasn't changed....it's not possible to make the perfect game.

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Originally Posted by gigemaggs99

I think it's impossible to make more than 51% of the people happy. IF EA made major changes to the game you would have the other 49% going nuts that they've removed some feature here or there or they've change it here or there and there would still be complaining. In the end, it's a football video game. They've been in the busy for a while now, they can package it however they want but from year to year it's not going to change that dramatically. It's funny, let's just say, if you refined the game to fix everything everyone wanted, then the next year's version would be complained about that it hasn't changed....it's not possible to make the perfect game.

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Ok. I understand that it's impossible to please everyone when it comes to any form of entertainment (video games included), but I don't think that is an invitation to not try or work to improve a game.

I know that no game will be perfect, but EA Tiburon has chose over this entire generation of football games to ignore legacy issues and the new issues that pop up each new iteration. I get that it may be hard to fix something immediately say within 1 or 2 years of it appearing but to blatantly ignore so many issues in their football games for so many years is what I get upset about. The laundry list of legacy issues that plague both Madden and NCAA football is not a small one it is ever growing due to the failed effort to fix practically any of them over the years (pass tracjectories finally improved on this gen after 6 years of complaining). It is ridiculous how so many issues remain with EA's football games and yet each year 99% of them are ignored so which was once a small amount of work has become a MOUNTAIN of problems and that 100% falls on EA Tiburon. When will it change? Next year? Next decade? Ever?

I get that no game can be perfect, but choosing not to perfect your game is inexcusable in my book. That is why so many people say we are playing NCAA Football 2001.12, its that huge laundry list of legacy issues that go untouched leaving the games to look, feel, sound, and play darn near the same each new edition. STOP focusing on gimmicks, on casual features, on blatantly ridiculous ideas like bullet time in a football game and get back to the basics of what makes football a great game to play, coach, and watch. Get rid of your legacy issues EA Tiburon and then people will stop saying the new version is more of the same.

Laundry list in no particular order:
Player movement and foot planting
Height and Weight (player size) that makes a difference in gameplay
All ratings should matter not just speed (plus make ratings universal in both games: QB ratings differ in NCAA and Madden)
Sliders not working (AI and Penalty)
Penalties not working (why bother even putting them in the game if they never get called even when maxed out)
Robo QB (accuracy ratings should matter way more and that makes every QB play the same)
OL/DL Interactions (my goodness this should have been fixed 6 years ago)
WR/DB interactions (why is the DB so aggressive and the WR so passive? Why does is seem the WR is oblivious to DB as if the WR thinks its offense only practice mode)
Unrealistic animations (so many dumb animations in both games its sad that bthey think they are realistic to the game of football, where are the effort animations or the branching animations to make gameplay smooth?)
User control issues (sure seems at times like I'm playing 1 vs 11 on Def thanks to brain dead defenders standing around or running away from ball carriers just waiting for me to click onto them and then finally make a play)
Huge lack of variety in player styles (QB's all throw the same with same release times for instance, and all RB's carry the ball the same just to name a couple)
Stadium sounds (Yeah it went from mediocre to crap to above avg that last 3 years, but it still doesn't deliver a true college football stadium experience. Crowd noise is still so weak especially on crucial 3rd and 4th downs and in red zones)
Commentary (my goodness is this stale and so so repetitive rather than variety we get same old song and dance each week)
Sidelines (small gripe since it doesn't impact much except bringing the immersion up a few notches but APF2k8 has way better sidelines and that is 5 years old)
Pre-game, half-time, and post-game wrap-up shows with stats and highlights don't exist sad we're still waiting after all these years (again the presentation side of video games helps wiht the immersion and replay value)
Stat overlays (some years there is a few and other years crickets, just give us consistent updates on how the players are doing, announcers giving comparisons and highlighting achievements more would be nice)
Simulation Stats (some years are better than others but never has it been realistic or even close to be honest)
Weather (enough already we get it it rains a lot in Florida where you make the game, but if weather can be optional in play now it should be in Dynasty and Franchise as well)
Special teams play (FG kicking logic on heisman always trying 55 yd fg's with bums, formations lacking, ball trajectory unrealistic, return blocking unrealistic, return man running into people rather than using his vision, protection blocking unrealistic results in no blocks, no seperate user/cpu sp. tms sliders in Madden)
Gameplan adjustment issues with CPU switching to aggressive zones in NCAA (makes safety play atrocious)
Option game issues in NCAA(pitching ball to rb and he runs backwards to catch it for 10 yd loss and defenders backpedaling or shuffling in space or just standing there as ball carrier runs (feels like I'm cheating the game because of these programmed responses)
Etc................ lol I'm tired of writing them

Peace. :bang:

As much as on the field is struggling, the strategy aspect of the game is very much lacking. No create a formation/play, no option for weakside/strongside, field/boundary, stand up end, all defensive strategies are the same. There is no risk to having undersized fast lineman. It doesn't make sense to get bigger receivers because they don't outjump smaller db's. I would love to be able to say I out thought a person and won and not say I just stopped their gimmicks long enough to beat them. Maybe it's just me.

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Originally Posted by WolverineJay

Ok. I understand that it's impossible to please everyone when it comes to any form of entertainment (video games included), but I don't think that is an invitation to not try or work to improve a game.

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While I understand you have plenty of frustrations with the game, I think that's a far cry from implying (or saying) that they're not even working on the game at all. There are several items on your list that I personally feel are MUCH better in NCAA 13 than they were in NCAA 12 or 11.

There are issues, yes, certainly. And, unfortunately, most (if not all) of those are not at all quick fixes.

Jeff, yeah my frustrations are justified I feel. Just look at the countless issues that keep this game stagnant and it just doesn't plague gameplay(my no.1 priority). We have differing opinions on some issues that is obvious, but like I said I know some of these problems are not a 1 cycle fix but to blatantly ignore the huge issues in both games produced by EA Tiburon for this entire generation. C'mon that is inexcusable.

I never said that they didn't work on their games. I stand by my statement that they refused to improve their games simply by the sure amount of legacy issues that get ignored year after year after year. I don't think adding bullet time to NCAA 13 improved it, did you? And we all know that isn't the only thing EA Tiburon decided to add to NCAA 13 instead of fixing legacy issues. When are we going to expect these issues to get fixed and get fixed correctly for that matter? Like I said I have practically no faith that NCAA 14 will fix even a 1/3 of it's legacy issues.

I have never been to EA Tiburon like you have Jeff so I have to take your word for it how hard these guys work and how talented they are. I do believe that they love football and want the best game possible, but they truly lack the vision to pull that off in my mind. The communities for both NCAA and Madden are willing to help not just talking about the CD guys and gamechangers which are few. Over the years I have read hundreds of high quality ideas that would help both football games immeasurabley, but they get ignored. I know there is no way that everything can be implemented that the community wants but to ignore your devoted communities so much over this generation is what landed EA Tiburon in the position they are in. I think fixing your game's issues HAS to be a top priority from now on EA Tiburon before adding garbage like bullet time.

I don't disagree with anything you said, Jay. I too question the amount of issues that have been ignored. But there have been improvements, even to gameplay. I don't disagree with you that it may not balance out the number of things that haven't been improved. And, personally, I have my own frustrations beyond what you outlined.

I will also admit that I did slightly misread what you originally said, though I got the overall gist right. There have been improvements. Whether or not they're in areas that you (or I, or Joe Average) care about is a different conversation.

The one thing I will say, and I don't recall if I've said this before to you or not, but getting permission from the powers-that-be to do nothing but fix legacy issues, in a major software release, is a tall order. In any company. Especially, imo, a company like EA. They'd have to have significant marketing research that says a bug fix NCAA 14 would sell more than a feature laden NCAA 14. And that would be very, very difficult to argue (IMO). It might sell more among TGT ... but the audience at large? Not so sure.

I hear you Jeff and I understand that EA is a business and is only concerned with will NCAA 14 and Madden 14 sell and make us a nice profit. I really don't like being so negative when it comes to the games that I once loved and would play year round (NCAA and Madden on PS2), but years of frustration this generation has made me just that unfortunately. The only way that negativity fades I feel is if I see a good amount of legacy issues corrected in NCAA 14 and Madden 14(for gameplay:OL/DL, player movement, Hgt/Wgt matters, better realistic animations, and sp. tms) along side whatever it is EA Tiburon feels they need to add to make the next game sell to the public. I just don't feel like NCAA or Madden this entire gen wanted the sports game of the year title which in my opinion has led to the staleness of EA's football games. All we can do Jeff is hope that the process of ignoring the major issues soon stops because then we may just get that game of the year shortly afterwards.

Agreed on most points. :D