In a case like this, I doubt we ever get all the "facts". Likewise, I could not see myself rooting for another team besides the U.
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In a case like this, I doubt we ever get all the "facts". Likewise, I could not see myself rooting for another team besides the U.
The problem is when I still fight and root for psu and not wanting the NCAA to get involved in criminal issues within universities I'm seen as an apologist for the tragedy instead of a fan of a football team whose players had nothing to do with this tragedy.
The screw ups of some individuals does not make it a whole. I'm not unsympathetic to the situation, my wife knows I'll kill anyone that touches my children and it has been discussion many times at night. Given this tragedy, then recently the father in Texas that killed his daughters molester this topic has been at the top of many peoples mind. Just remember the first part of this post to get my perspective.
One reason college football is so great! I'm so looking forward to the start of the season.Quote:
Originally Posted by ryby6969
I am not questioning your feelings on what happened. As a father myself, I know how you feel. What I am saying is if what is in the report is true, then Paterno is no better than Sandusky and in many ways much worse. Will we ever know for sure how much Paterno knew? I highly doubt it but I just do not see a man of his stature at PSU and in the state of Penn. not knowing something.
Being so close to the situation that's the part that i struggle with. How much did he know, what did he know?Quote:
Originally Posted by ryby6969
This is the hardest thing to wrap my head around. My neighbor (who is still jobless since this tragedy cost him his job as speed and strength coach at PSU) can't wrap his mind around it all either and he knew Joe and everything. He knew nothing like this was happening and may I add when the report said that they interviewed most of the former staff I gotta call BS. I've been told by Jeremy that 6 coaches and both strength coaches and 2 grad assistants were not interviewed which makes it far less then most like the report stated :)
He is so pissed that he is being lumped into knowing more when he didn't and this tragedy is affecting his job resume and possibilities big time. It really hits close to home do to speak.
5 men do not make an entire university and all the GOOD that it has done over the past. I'm a Penn State grad, fan of all Penn State sports and huge supporter of the football team. I would never root or support any other SCHOOL. These things that came out do not tarnish my views and experiences of the INSTITUTION and the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of proud alumni that do GOOD things every single day, Penn State has the largest run student philanthropy in the country and this year alone raised over $10,000,000 for pediatric cancer or the Football team itself has a philanthropy that is 10 years in the running for raising money for Kidney Cancer.Quote:
Originally Posted by ryby6969
Are my views of Joe Paterno and the 4 other men involved in this tarnished? ABSOLUTELY and I think they should face the full LEGAL ramifications that are allowed. Should the entire university be damned, in my opinion... No. Will the university itself find itself in some legal issues, probably to me that's fine. Should the football team be given the death penalty, this is the one that bothers me the most. As Snoop kind of eluded to, the main issue is this is what almost EVERY SINGLE person is talking about. Kind of like when this all broke and everyone was talking about Joe and not Sandusky, the actual monster in this whole thing. Everyone is saying, give the death penalty to the football team instead of saying...... Those 4 FUCKERS should be in jail.
Honestly I don't know where I stand on the death penalty. A lot of people are referencing SMU and USC and OSU and saying they did so less compared to PSU and got royally punished. To me these things are even comparable. All of those other issues were directly football related in paying players and giving players improper benefits which is violations of the NCAA. These things that have happened here are CRIMINAL in nature and to me don't involve playing the game of football. Some argue they were trying to protect the name of the football program but I don't completely buy that. To me there were protecting the name of the entire university and frankly I feel, kind of like you mentioned Roy, with the parents of molesters or murderers or whatever, they didn't want to believe it.
I guess my biggest thing is how is the death penalty serving any justice and punishing the people that were at fault? I'm all for punishing the people that were at fault and think they should get the fullest extent.
You just said you couldn'tQuote:
Originally Posted by ryby6969
Quote:
If this were to happen at Miami, I would not be able to be a fan of the school anymore.
I suppose that depends on what your definition of "allowed" means.Quote:
Originally Posted by psusnoop
(1) Do I think Joe said "Go rape those boys Sandusky! Here use the shower!" Etc....? - No.
(2) Do I think Joe was given credible evidence that his assistant coach was raping boys and he did next to nothing to get to the bottom of it and didn't care enough about the allegations that he didn't fire him immediately and/or stopped letting him from hanging round the program thus enabling further rapes to occur? Yes on at least 2 occassions (1998 and 2001)
The only questions in my mind re: #2 is (1) did Sandusky (or someone else) convince Joe that these allegations were 100% not true? - I've seen no evidence to indicate that and seems rather unlikely given the other e-mails from higher ups who all but admit they know it is going on and do nothing to stop it and (2) why did Joe "allow" this to go on under his watch? - One can only speculate as Joe is gone and there are no documents (e-mails from Joe) however, given the other e-mails from everyone else in power places within PSU one can only assume Joe was on board with their intent as well which was basically to cover this up for fear of the damage it would do to the program.
Look it's ALWAYS "impossible" to prove what is in someone's head threw direct 100% evidence (absent a video tape recording the incident as it is occurring). Moreover, its ALWAYS possible to construct a theory of how someone didn't do something wrong. (i.e. Aliens came to State College and temporarily replaced the old Joe Pa with a clone Joe Pa on the days that he was informed of the rapes as the real Joe Pa would have surely put a bullet in Sandusky's head). True the report cannot rule out Aliens came to PA and temporarily abducted Joe Pa. However, "Circumstantial evidence" can be compelling/damning as well.
Clearly Paterno in all likelyhood knew (who else could "Coach" be?) of allegations of sexual misconduct in May of 1998. Yet Sandusky continues to coach at PSU until December 28, 1999 (1 1/2 years later). Moreover, even after he "retired" he was allowed access to the program to rape boys.Quote:
May 13, 1998, 2:21 p.m. Curley emailed Schultz 10 days after Victim 6 was assaulted by Sandusky in the shower."Anything new in this department? Coach is anxious to know where it stands."
Testimony before the Grand Jury:
That's probably grounds for perjury with the only issue of whether he "misremembered".Quote:
Question to Paterno: "Other than the [2001] incident that Mike McQueary reported to you, do you know in any way, through rumor, direct knowledge or any other fashion, of any other inappropriate sexual conduct by Jerry Sandusky with young boys?"
Paterno: "I do not know of anything else that Jerry would be involved in of that nature, no. I do not know of it. You did mention -- I think you said something about a rumor. It may have been discussed in my presence, something else about somebody. I don't know. I don't remember, and I could not honestly say I heard a rumor."
There are only two possible explanations for that testimony (1) Paterno knew of the 1998 incident and attempted to cover it up; (2) He somehow couldn't remember an allegation that he was previously aware of his assistant coach molesting children.
Now I am not privy to Paterno's mental capabilities in 2012 but unless he was suffering from mental illness/disease I find it hard to believe someone could forget an allegation that your assistant coach was molesting children. If he was suffering from mental disease/illness when did his symptoms begin and WTF was he doing coaching the football team while suffering from the disease.
It's another SAD day and for many/most PSU fans you will probably NEVER be satisfied that the "truth" has come out. We can only do the best we can with the current technology/abilities of investigators. Moreover, with most of the key players either dead and/or in jail or soon will be in jail they are NEVER going to tell you the truth.
Yes, but if it happened at Miami I would NOT be a fan anymore. I would be ashamed of the school and what it let transpire. I never said anything about the death penalty. This goes way beyond football and should make people realize how insignificant football really is in the grand scheme of things. I do believe if these accusations are true, Paterno should be erased from the record books IMO. I made a comment because my problem is with the people who think that Paterno is the victim in all of this. He is far from the victim even if none of the accusations about him are true.Quote:
Originally Posted by psuexv
Just for the record, I am not bashing Penn State or any of its students/Alumni. One thing I will say though, it makes me feel bad as a human that there are people out there who would worry more about a Football Program and their "reputation" rather than the well being of children.(not you guys, the 4+ people involved)
CLW I gotta say this again regarding the 98 incident, No way Joe covered it up unless you think the police and DA were completely puppets in this because they are the ones that didn't file charges here. Not Joe not reporting something.
Hey maybe he knew maybe he didn't. Misremembering worked well for someone else recently :D I kid I kid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by psusnoop
Enough of this depressing shit, get your ass on NCAA so I can whip it! :D
Another thing to remember during this 2001 stuff is the horrendous record of psu those surrounding years. Just another sick twist to all this mess.
Weird thing to add to all of this is the attempted firing of Joe by Spanier and the BoT in the early 2000's and him telling them to pound sand. Many around here always felt he had something on the BoT and Spanier and some thought this may be it. While it doesn't appear to be the case we will never know for sure since Joe is gone.
Funny hahah no kidding I just feel so obligated to make sure the facts stay facts like the 98 incident :DQuote:
Originally Posted by ryby6969
I've been fishing with the kids since 330pm (and following the boards and emails) while trying to get away from this it's tough though.
Well said :+1: :clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by psuexv
Well he certainly allowed Sandusky to coach/remain on the staff for another 1 1/2 years and then allowed him to stay around the showers for another 10+ years.Quote:
Originally Posted by psusnoop
Yep and that would have to be the defense and of course it all depends on whether the jury believes the defendant or not.
Completely agree and it's mind numbing to me right now, all of this is.Quote:
Originally Posted by CLW
Like E said, psu is more then those 4 buffoons that made horrific decisions in this horrendous tragedy. Not sure how anyone can feel good about the decisions that were made.
Agreed I hold no ill will towards the University itself (its an entity and thus cannot act on its own behalf and relies on its human/employees to act for it) or for the countless others at the University who undoubtedly contribute greatly to society.Quote:
Originally Posted by psusnoop
Unfortunately, it appears that the reputation of PSU's football program was more important than that of the well being of children (at least to those in power at the relevant time frame). Several of these people will be brought to justice criminally. Several of these people (and Penn State as an institution) will be brought to justice through civil lawsuits. (all of these WILL happen its just a matter of when in my mind and the final determination of "justice" is the only remaining question there i.e. prison length and/or amount of $ to be paid to the victims).
The only thing really left to be decided is if (and if so to what extent) the football program (and possibly the whole athletics department) is punished. Honestly, I just cannot see the NCAA not laying down some form of punishment for this.
Perhaps some sort of ban and/or even a requirement that ALL/Certain % of $ generated by the football program for X period of time be donated to a well known charity that helps children that have been sexually/physically abused.
The NCAA's/college athletics as a whole's reputation has been hit hard with its rulings re: Newton; U$C; Tatoo U; One and Done Thugs; UNC Academics; Penn State sex scandal etc....
IMHO the NCAA is going to have to step it up and save the current system or it will eventually fall apart (and I'll let each individual decide whether that is a good or bad thing)
Not being from the Pennsylvania area or the north, I still think highly of Joe Paterno and think he is still one of the greatest influences on college football in history!!! I dont think this should tarnish a man who spent his life at one university...
yeah, his record was clean until he was at least 70 years old.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarhead10
Washing that away or saying you want no association with that is ridiculous.
he was an elderly man who made a mental mistake. I wont hate an entire schools history just for that. Life goes on, people fail. Such is life as it moves forward.
...Its Sandusky who destroyed lives . Up until Sandusky entered Paterno's life, Paterno did many great things for alot of people.
its wrong from alot of angles and alot of people are wrong for maybe not stringing Sandusky up early on. But the football team and the majority of the college dont have crap to do
with the actions of Sandusky.
So, today's debate seems to be whether the statue should stay up or come down. That's one tough call. The library name seems to be safe though.
This is actually a really good piece by someone whom seems to have no ties to Penn State. Actually raises a lot of questions regarding the report. Probably 2 of the biggest things are not only did Freeh not interview McQueary, he never talked to Paterno, Curley, Shultz or Spanier. And I didn't really pick up on this but the he points out that Freeh is assuming that "Coach" in the emails back in 1998 are referring to Paterno when Sandusky was still a coach at that point and very likely could have meant him and he was interested in what the findings were.
I'm not dismissing any blame here, just thought this was a good read by a non-Penn Stater and raises some very good questions about the report itself.
http://www.johnziegler.com/editorial...?editorial=219
I read that this morning too, interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by psuexv
Yeah this is where the decision makers have to have the balls to stand up for a man who dedicated his life to teaching and influencing men to go on to be better humans and individuals who would raise families and contribute greatly to society.. Yeah it was sick and disgusting what Sandusky did, as a father myself I would do the same thing the father in texas did, but Paterno did so much more than just this black cloud hanging over him... This sad thing is there will never be another man to dedicate his life to one university like this man did, we dont see people like him in society anymore... I believe it should stand also for his family.. To be able to remember their father for the awesome person he was and what he stood for... How terrible would it be for your father to die and have to hear people talk terrible about him and associate him with what someone else has done...Quote:
Originally Posted by souljahbill
Quote:
Originally Posted by psuexv
I agree with this 100%, I think that's why I said I don't really know if the death penalty is the best "fix". It does bother me that in "real life" if you break the law YOU get punished, not your kids or someone else.
In "football life" i.e. USC they break the rules and the kids that were in jr high or high school are the ones that pay.
Reggie Bush was told to give his Heisman back. They make 2, one goes to the university for their trophy case, the other goes to the player. Once Reggie "said" he was going to give it back USC returned theirs. "Somehow" that day Reggie's was "misplaced" and has never been found.....yet the players (jr. high and high school at the time) now the current players are the ones paying for his, the universities and coaches mistakes. Makes no sense to me.
Same with SMU, Eric Dickerson, Craig James, other coaches, players they didn't really get hurt in the 20 year aftermath of the death penalty. Yeah they may have won the national title if allowed to keep going in their ways, but it's the players that came afterward that payed the price.
So thinking on it more, no the death penalty for Penn St would not fix the issue. It would not punish the people responsible, would it snap the football environment as a whole back to reality, HELL YES but it would also bring the program to it's knees and I don't like that and I think the NCAA doesn't like that idea either, this is why they have eluded to never giving that penalty out after they say what it really did to SMU. The players, coaches and administration that broke the rules at SMU have not paid nearly as bad a price as the University as a whole. I don't think this would be fair to Penn St, USC, etc...they need a better system. One where the punishment fits the crime.
I say leave the statue of Joe. Bad things happen to good people, this doesn't tarnish their entire body of life's work. Is this one a black eye for Joe, heck yes, but it doesn't define his life, if you ask me.
I think people react to the here and now. They get all upset and then later, years later they simmer down and look at the body of work over a lifetime, they don't pick it apart. Those that do always will, but I think they are the minority.
Will Sandusky ever be looked at the same, not in my eyes, he's a predator, can't change that title.
I'm just saying in the long run, I think Joe Paterno will still be mentioned along w/ the greats of college football, he may have an astrix next to his name in fine print but it shouldn't be the defining issue.
NOTE: this is just an example I'm not trying to stir things up. Look at Bill Clinton for example, my parents are discussed with him, and the Lewinsky issue, they are, were and still all fired up about it. Is it a black eye for Pres Clinton, yes. Does it define his entire years of service, not to me.
Again my parents for example...they are older of course and they are really fond of Pres Kennedy. However, I don't bring it up to them, but now that things are starting to come out and of course there wasn't the internet and mass media back then, I would hazard to guess, just from what I've heard that JFK did as much is not far more than Pres Clinton, but the older generations don't hang JFK out to dry like they do Clinton. Perhaps the issue that happened to Clinton is still too fresh.
Similar to Joe Paterno, all we here about him NOW is this bad stuff. I'm suggesting, 30-40 years from now it will be his football career they discuss, not this Sandusky road bump in his life's career.
I try and keep my "fan side" of things in perspective when it comes to college sports but sometimes it's hard when you see the "dark side" money side of things come into play. Take A&M for example when I was in high school early 90s (95 grad) A&M was slowly getting better each year...then all of a sudden they got caught paying players and lost t.v. coverage for 1 year. They year (1994) they went undefeated (10-0-1)but couldn't be in a bowl. Then it slowly has gotten worse since then. So 1 year of no tv and no bowl games makes a HUGE difference. The other issue is even though they weren't in a bowl they also couldn't share in the conference revenues gained by t.u. or other SWC teams making a bowl. They paid for it later down the line....money matters.
When I was in school at A&M one of my neighbors was a player that was paid in the year they got caught. He went on to play for the Colts, but was later cut due to injury or not fitting w/ the team, I'm not sure. I know he had a big poster in his living room of him on the colts field in a colts uni....anyways...I asked him what it was really all about. He said they used to get paid all the time for doing things. They were actually working so it wasn't like they were just getting money, but he said it was of course against the rules, but when they were offered cash they would take it. They were always told not to take checks b/c then there was a paper trail. Well a coach needed help moving a hot tub. So a couple of the players went to his house to lift the heavy stuff and they were paid, in checks. They were all told not to cash the checks but someone did.
Then later a new treasure came in, wanted to get the books in order and started noticing that 1 check had been cashed but the other check numbers where missing. So they looked into it more and found out the mistake, so A&M turned it over to the NCAA and they were punished.
This is again however a problem I have with the punishment not fitting the crime. This guy, I'm wracking my brain to remember his name was back at A&M after being cut from the Colts and he was finishing his degree through a scholarship...so he didn't really miss out on anything. It was the football program and the later players that missed out. I have no idea what the proper punishment "should be" I'm just saying it doesn't seem like they are punishing the correct people.
Maybe in big-time sports where big-time money is involved people cheat to get ahead. Maybe that's the sad truth behind it. My Dad is a tenure professor at Texas Tech, he's been there since 1990, and he laughs when he sees coaches like Mike Leach or Bobby Knight come a long and make SO MUCH money to work at the same place he does...realistically supposed to be teaching kids yet making MILLIONS per year he just shakes his head and laughs.
I find it "interesting" that coaches just "happen" to leave what looks like a really good job, then later to find out they left just in time. Take Pete Carroll from USC, Urban Meyer from Florida, Lou Holtz from Notre Dame, the list goes on and on...it just seems fishy that they leave and then the university they left gets hammered by the NCAA or their former university just can't seem to WIN like it could before.
Sorry to get off on a tangent that isn't Penn St and what they are going through. I just hope ALL the facts come out so we can all see it plain as day, make up our minds and in the end, move on.
Penn St as a football program will move on. Will it maybe take a hit for a few years, maybe...but the true fans like the psusnoop, psuexv, steelerfan, etc.. they will still cheer for THEIR team as they should.
:glare: Ive had the same avatar for 2 years ...and Steelerfan jumped ship :DQuote:
but the true fans like the psusnoop, psuexv, steelerfan, etc.. they will still cheer for THEIR team as they should.
The NCAA better keep their mouths shut and their hands out of it. They arent necassary with all the other legal agencies doing what they do. Thats quite enough.
Yep. I think Steelerfan chose Notre Dame of all schools :fp:
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Jumping in this momentarily, I was listening to Fox Sports last night at work (our AM station carries Fox Sports), and another reason they are against the death penalty being used on Penn State, in addition to the many already mentioned in here, is for these victims, by now, I'm sure they want this all to end, the nonstop media and everything and just get on with their lives. If you were one of these victims, would you want to be responsible, in whatever capacity or margin, for an entire football team being slaughtered by the NCAA? Even if they aren't actually legitimately responsible, in whatever capacity, they'll sure as hell feel responsible for it happening.
It's not like Sandusky molesting young boys in the shower gave Penn State a recruiting advantage. So that aspect of anything the NCAA could do is out. Lack of institutional control, yes, you can make the case for that. But how does killing a football team with the death penalty, for one year, five years, however many years, fix anything? You're punishing a hundred current football players, thousands upon thousands of fans, and even the victims themselves by killing the team as a result of what happened to them, for the actions of one man, and the inaction of a handful other men. They had Bobby Bowden on the show last night and even he said the same thing, this isn't an NCAA matter, it's a criminal matter and it should be handled through the criminal courts.
Any kind of athletic penalties should not happen.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psuexv
That certainly is plausible although if it is in fact true. (We will of course NEVER know) However assuming arguendo it where true, WTF were these higher ups doing discussing with Sandusky an ongoing investigation into whether Sandusky was in fact a sexual predator? We will never know but if push comes to shove I suspect the parties involved in the e-mails will say they were referring to Paterno b/c it looks "less bad" than if they were talking to Sandusky about the ongoing investigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by psusnoop
Moreover, you still have the 01 incident where we know Paterno was informed by an eye witness of a sexual assault.
You guys have presented one side of the "no death penalty" argument (i.e. it harms "innocent" people). Although, I can make an argument that NOONE in the program is 100% innocent I'll assume for the sake of argument that is largely true.
The other side in support of NCAA punishment is it serves as notice and a deterant to other schools. IF you cover up something this heinous you WILL be caught and you WILL be PUNISHED and the punishment for the cover up is going to be MUCH MUCH MUCH worse than had you reported/stopped the issue a.s.a.p.
I guess I disagree that NOTHING should happen to the football team. By no means do I think the death penalty is warranted or anything even remotely that severe. Also, I would NOT argue that any NCAA sanctions/penalties would be for the purpose of helping the victims or anything that noble (the court rulings will hopefully serve that purpose).
I just think that the culture of protecting the football program is the reason all of this went on. Without pointing the blame at any one person, this was a systematic failure that happened because the people in power believed that protecting the football program & a great coach's legacy was more important than stepping forward & doing the right thing. Plain and simple. To me, there must be some kind of penalty. While I do not know what that punishment should be, I believe something must be done. The suggestion that perhaps a chunk of athletic department revenue be directed towards a charity for a cpl years seems like an interesting possibility... Just my opinion.
I never had a Penn State avatar, numbnuts.Quote:
Originally Posted by ram29jackson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelerfan
:D that wasnt my pointless point to begin with...Mr. sleepy balls :D
:fp:Quote:
Originally Posted by ram29jackson
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Alright, alright, lets get things back on track here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn0WdJx-Wkw
LMAO!Quote:
Originally Posted by ram29jackson
Mr. Sleepy Balls.
That shit is funny!
So apparently Louis Freeh who investigated the PSU "cover up" is involved in an investigated cover-up when he was head of the FBI :fp: How am I supposed to find this guy credible now.
http://www.businessinsider.com/penn-...m_campaign=law
Fair points Kwizzy and I completely understand that it appears this whole thing happened because of the football program. However I don't think it revolved solely around the football program. With Spanier being involved, I would also suggest it was about protecting the image of the University itself. Obviously this is purely speculation on my part, but having been around a Spanier run university since he's been here, he loved the squeaky clean image. He'd pretty much publicly stated how he hated the "party" image of the school and has put a number of things into place to try and minimize that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwizzy
Oh, I'm sure that protecting the image of the entire University was the case, not simply the football team. However I think that when you hear of the culture that JoePa worked for these people only in title & that he was the defacto King of the University, it brings the football team to the foreground. It's really a tough and horrible situation, most especially for the kids that were hurt, but also for all of the innocent & wonderful people associated with Penn St. But like in a lot of cases, honest & decent people will and should end up paying for the sins of others.Quote:
Originally Posted by psuexv
"honest & decent people....should end up paying for the sins of others."Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwizzy
WTF? You really feel that way?
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