Kotaku: NCAA Football 13 Was More of the Same Rather Than Anything New

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An article from Kotaku's Owen Good echoes much of the communities feelings on the NCAA Football series... not enough changes from year to year. That is, nothing is innovative and distinguishes itself from a previous version.

As part of that article, Good reveals that shortly after launch, the NCAA 13 development team was presented with a creative debriefing asking them to guess from various screenshots from NCAA 10 through NCAA 13 which one belonged to each year. The presenter didn't receive an answer.

While the presentation was apparently only focused on visuals, I don't believe that's where it should have stopped. I believe you could do much of the same, even with highly acclaimed sports game series such as MLB: The Show or NBA 2k. Obviously the impact was felt with the developers but a change in visuals isn't enough to distinguish one game from another. To truly set one year apart from another, it will take a combination of things. It will take wowing the community with features, much like Madden 13 did. It will take tightening up what you already have, much like MLB: The Show does every year. Then once you have all of that, toss on a new coat of paint.

While I don't agree with everything the writer has to say, he does do a very good job of echoing the communities feelings on the series. It's stale and it needs a shot in the arm. It needs something more than Heisman Challenge. The article is certainly worth a read and while it doesn't go into any details for plans for NCAA Football 14, it does show you that the developers know they have to do something more.

Kotaku: Which One of These Things Is Not Like the Other? NCAA 14 Must Supply an Answer

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You can view the page at http://www.thegamingtailgate.com/for...n-Anything-New

I actually sat down yesterday to write out a complete summary of the core issues as I see them within this franchise... Not only '13 but the series in general. I stopped 2 paragraphs in because I realized that I have sent this document to the devs time and again since I got involved with the community days a couple years ago. It really bothered me to do so because I used to really enjoy sitting down and laying out my thoughts on the issues with the game. I want to make clear that I am not laying this all at the feet of the dev team. In my experience, they would like to fix and add many of the same things we all would like to have. This is a finger pointed at EVERYONE at EA who has the ability to influence the direction of this franchise.

I'm simply at the point where it's too frustrating to spend my time and energy trying to give feedback as the game currently stands. The issues are much larger and more basic/fundamental than I think anyone involved is willing to acknowledge. It's not worth it to me to spend time pointing out specific examples of some of these issues when the reason they keep happening is much more globally obvious. For instance, it's a waste of time to point out one instance of bad blocking logic so that they can focus in on that one situation. If you play the game for an extended period of time you see countless examples of FBs and OL being indecisive, OL knowing a CB is blitzing automatically, etc....

The game gives the appearance of football very well on the face of things. The problem with that is that when you look closely, the details are so maddening that it makes the game unplayable after a shorter and shorter period of time each year. Now I understand that the illusion of football is more than enough to sell copies to the masses and that those who love nothing more than to bash EA & the devs state that as their reason this is the case. However I have been told on countless occasions, and have interacted with the devs enough to know that they would really love for this to not be the case.

I don't really have a point or a purpose with this rant. This article simply came at a time where I have been growing more and more frustrated.

Well I have to disagree with the showing of 4 different screen shots to compare the titles. I get what they were trying to say but nobody has really complained too much about the visuals of NCAA. Yes they add progressive lighting and shadows and all that stuff to make it look better but gameplay is where you would be able to tell the difference. The Visuals to me in NCAA have always been good and really don't need to change.

In '13 you can definitely tell the difference in gameplay over '12. Yes they missed on some things like Defensive Alignment and still haven't figured out Lineman and WR/DB interactions but they definitely added some nice features to this years game that makes it feel different.

Pass trajectories are IMO the best addition so far. Of course it can get better but it is a very nice addition where it stands now.

Adding that defensive players need to see the ball to react to it is another huge difference over previous years. Once again, it can get better as you still have some instances where you just aren't quite sure how the DB made that play but overall it's another welcomed change.

Overall I think '13 was heads and tails better than '12 and to me that's a good thing. If we were to stay on this generation and they were to continue on a path that they laid out from 12 to 13 I would be extremely happy. Consistency is a good thing. I don't want to have to relearn a new game and have different menus and completely different features every year. Do I want them to continually fix things that are wrong and improve on things, absolutely.

IMO NCAA13 is better and worse at the same time. It's better in the things they added (trajectories, catch animations, etc.) but it's worse in things they didn't address. OL/DL is as bad as ever been, DB play is at times worse than 12, the fact that the option defenders still stand still, continued issues with ODs and transfer failed style errors, the fact that there are countless issues with the game that have been there since last gen, the fact that there are still several small features that Madden has that NCAA never did... those things just echo that, yeah they added to the game but they didn't do a good job of revisiting old issues. That's my main problem... there are still too many old issues that even when they add new toys, the entertainment only lasts until you inevitably hit one of those issues.

I just don't understand why anyone expects these changes to occur this generation -- EA has clearly reached the limit of what the current engine(s) can do. That was apparent three years ago. The change should come on the next-gen consoles.

That said ... I'd say NCAA 13 is the best football game I've ever played, going back 20 years.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gschwendt

IMO NCAA13 is better and worse at the same time. It's better in the things they added (trajectories, catch animations, etc.) but it's worse in things they didn't address. OL/DL is as bad as ever been, DB play is at times worse than 12, the fact that the option defenders still stand still, continued issues with ODs and transfer failed style errors, the fact that there are countless issues with the game that have been there since last gen, the fact that there are still several small features that Madden has that NCAA never did... those things just echo that, yeah they added to the game but they didn't do a good job of revisiting old issues. That's my main problem... there are still too many old issues that even when they add new toys, the entertainment only lasts until you inevitably hit one of those issues.

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I can agree with this.

The problem IMO though is that the things that are TRULY holding this game back are core/foundational principles of physics and football. Sure they can make modest improvements to the way DBs play routes but the real problem is that the DB isn't reading any keys. The results are things like the CB sprinting towards a run play from the instant the ball is snapped and completely abandoning his coverage responsibilities. The way the plays are made to work means that when you quick audible from a run to a pass within the same formation the defense moves too. They can make it so the DB has to see the ball to make a play on it but that doesn't change the fact that the DB can change directions instantly as soon as he does see the ball.

The most fundamental elements of football like leverage & reads are completely absent at this point & the result is a skyscraper built on a foundation made of mashmallows. The engine ends up accounting for this lack of fundamentals in whatever way is easiest & the result is frustrating BS plays.

The changes that need to be made to give this game a new feel and allow the game to make dramatic steps forward in the next few years are very core to the way this game works. My worry is that these changes are too big to undertake and the more lucrative alternative is to keep moving forward with the "illusion of football".

Here are some things that would help make the game more enjoyable for me, a long time fan of the series.

Menus/Navigation – There is a lot going on in NCAA13. It is hard to navigate and slow. It would be nice if they went simple with it, put most of the options on the screen with simple scrolling. Instead of the crazy ESPN transformer like graphics just use simple pictures of real players, cheerleaders, mascots, and fans as a background. You could really pull that off and have it look sharp.

Gameplay/Atmosphere – It will never be perfect, just keep fine-tuning. I would like to see the option worked on a little more. Also, get more plays and new plays. We can always use that to make each offensive style more different, it really is what makes the game replayable. Keep working on the atmosphere, really ramp up the crowd for night games with ranked teams and rivalry games. There should be more happening on the field, all 11 guys in the end zone celebrating, people on the sideline going crazy. Maybe a shot of the coach holding up a 1 or 2 after a TD and the team going bonkers behind him and the crowd rushing the field in an upset. Currently they got the atmosphere of an 11am game between Wisconsin and Indiana.

Dynasty – Coaching Carousel was a great idea, now they just need to fix it. Added customization and number of conferences, scheduling and playoff teams, the possibilities would be endless. Am I the only one who loved the SI covers back in ’04? They do not need to have SI, but make a weekly national magazine cover, that would be cool. Recruiting needs to be simplified, it takes too long. I like the new scouting feature, but can we get rid of phone calls? Are you really pumped up that you got 110pts for talking about “Athletic Facilities”? Let’s eliminate all topics and just give us time to use each week and we can assume they talked about all the right things. For an advantage on prospects closer to home you can add an unofficial visits, where prospects will go on unofficial visits to schools they are both interested in, close to and don’t have another visit planned that week. You are alerted of the visits as your game is loading.

Just these few things would not be a huge change but would make a big deal for me.

I agree with the article and at this point in the cycle the series it what it is. 14 will largely be 13 rehashed with the infinity engine and possibly some other cosmetic changes. Honestly if they fixed: (1) OL/DL interaction; (2) Pass Coverage; and (3) CPU Play Call Logic I would be pretty happy. However, they either won't do it or can't do it. So we will get further window dressing and can only hope that the next generation of consoles brings the change needed for the series.

The problem is I very highly doubt that they start over again on the next gen of consoles so the same core issues will be there.

IMO the following are the biggest core issues:

-Physics (Both in interactions and in individual player movement. Fortunately it looks as though they have been working on this behind the scenes and are in the process of addressing this.)

-Run fits and leverage

-Blocking schemes/assignment and execution

-Defenders reaction/keys

-Play design & implementation

-CPU Competitiveness (play calling, decision, making, exectuion, adaptiveness)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kwizzy

The problem IMO though is that the things that are TRULY holding this game back are core/foundational principles of physics and football. Sure they can make modest improvements to the way DBs play routes but the real problem is that the DB isn't reading any keys. The results are things like the CB sprinting towards a run play from the instant the ball is snapped and completely abandoning his coverage responsibilities. The way the plays are made to work means that when you quick audible from a run to a pass within the same formation the defense moves too. They can make it so the DB has to see the ball to make a play on it but that doesn't change the fact that the DB can change directions instantly as soon as he does see the ball.

The most fundamental elements of football like leverage & reads are completely absent at this point & the result is a skyscraper built on a foundation made of mashmallows. The engine ends up accounting for this lack of fundamentals in whatever way is easiest & the result is frustrating BS plays.

The changes that need to be made to give this game a new feel and allow the game to make dramatic steps forward in the next few years are very core to the way this game works. My worry is that these changes are too big to undertake and the more lucrative alternative is to keep moving forward with the "illusion of football".

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100% agree. This needs to be priority #1 on next gen. Realistic movement of players- momentum, change of direction, collisions, etc. The entire foundation of gameplay relies on it. The movement on ps2 was lightyears better than on ps3/360. It's night and day. That's part of the reason "next gen" gaming has been a disaster.

Player models and colors are brutal as well. Players are so disproportional and unrealistic looking. Jersey's don't fit properly. The colors are so dull. They don't pop like they do on TV. I could definitely overlook these issues if the gameplay and player movement was more realistic, but when its not, these issues just add up to an underwhelming experience for me.

The crowd has been lacking this entire generation and has taken away from the college atmosphere and feel, but it seems they are working on that aspect finally.

I didn't buy 13. First time I passed on the series since 99. Honestly, I haven't missed it or had the urge to play it. Bring the fun back EA. Enough with the gimmicks.

I would also say that having played the game the last couple of years a couple of times throughout the development process.... Something they are doing to "tighten the game up" as they get towards release date is really overpowered. What I mean by this is that I've felt like the game has been much more fun to play before the final version of the game hits shelves. It seems like animations and things like that are much more varied and the gameplay feels much more fluid. I think that in the process of getting rid of bugs, glitches, etc... they are taking some of the fun factor out of the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kwizzy

The problem is I very highly doubt that they start over again on the next gen of consoles so the same core issues will be there.

IMO the following are the biggest core issues:

-Physics (Both in interactions and in individual player movement. Fortunately it looks as though they have been working on this behind the scenes and are in the process of addressing this.)

-Run fits and leverage

-Blocking schemes/assignment and execution

-Defenders reaction/keys

-Play design & implementation

-CPU Competitiveness (play calling, decision, making, exectuion, adaptiveness)

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From playing Madden this year, I enjoy playing against the run much more then I do in the NCAA games because of IE. It is not perfect, but just little things like being rewarded for a LB stepping up in the hole to take on a blocker is huge IMO. It does not tie into movement enough this season and I do not think size has the impact it should yet, but it is definitely a step in the right direction. I am really hoping they completely redo OL/DL interaction as well as WR/DB interaction with the addition of IE. If they can make size have more of an impact on the game, it will change many different levels of the game.

You would have to think if you really want that 210lb linebacker just because he has 90 speed or the 220 DE because you run the risk of getting ran all over because they are undersized. It would actually make different styles of play actually feel different which is something that is sorely needed. My problem with Madden is, well it is the NFL. I LOVE recruiting and just love CFB in general and cannot wait to see what is done with another year of IE.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kwizzy

The problem is I very highly doubt that they start over again on the next gen of consoles so the same core issues will be there.

IMO the following are the biggest core issues:

-Physics (Both in interactions and in individual player movement. Fortunately it looks as though they have been working on this behind the scenes and are in the process of addressing this.)

-Run fits and leverage

-Blocking schemes/assignment and execution

-Defenders reaction/keys

-Play design & implementation

-CPU Competitiveness (play calling, decision, making, exectuion, adaptiveness)

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kwizzy

The problem IMO though is that the things that are TRULY holding this game back are core/foundational principles of physics and football. Sure they can make modest improvements to the way DBs play routes but the real problem is that the DB isn't reading any keys. The results are things like the CB sprinting towards a run play from the instant the ball is snapped and completely abandoning his coverage responsibilities. The way the plays are made to work means that when you quick audible from a run to a pass within the same formation the defense moves too. They can make it so the DB has to see the ball to make a play on it but that doesn't change the fact that the DB can change directions instantly as soon as he does see the ball.

The most fundamental elements of football like leverage & reads are completely absent at this point & the result is a skyscraper built on a foundation made of mashmallows. The engine ends up accounting for this lack of fundamentals in whatever way is easiest & the result is frustrating BS plays.

The changes that need to be made to give this game a new feel and allow the game to make dramatic steps forward in the next few years are very core to the way this game works. My worry is that these changes are too big to undertake and the more lucrative alternative is to keep moving forward with the "illusion of football".

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gschwendt

IMO NCAA13 is better and worse at the same time. It's better in the things they added (trajectories, catch animations, etc.) but it's worse in things they didn't address. OL/DL is as bad as ever been, DB play is at times worse than 12, the fact that the option defenders still stand still, continued issues with ODs and transfer failed style errors, the fact that there are countless issues with the game that have been there since last gen, the fact that there are still several small features that Madden has that NCAA never did... those things just echo that, yeah they added to the game but they didn't do a good job of revisiting old issues. That's my main problem... there are still too many old issues that even when they add new toys, the entertainment only lasts until you inevitably hit one of those issues.

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I completely agree Kwizzy and gschwendt. The areas that need the most work are the ones that have been neglected for years and years despite consistent community feedback. It is very frustrating to think where this series would be if it cleaned up and removed all the old issues when they first popped up instead of now (maybe) at the end of these more powerful consoles. Its a real shame that I have practically no faith for NCAA 14 and it's ability to represent what we see every Saturday. If OL/DL interactions, WR/DB interactions, player movement, and CPU AI are neglected again along with special teams then NCAA 14 will be the most hated game in the series. And EA Tiburon has nobody to blame but themselves since it has turned a blind eye to these glaring legacy issues. If NCAA 13 was a test and each area was a question then it would be full of red marks for failing to deliver authentic gameplay, movement, sounds, animations, and feel. NCAA 13 gets a failing grade if we judge it as a simulation of college football.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Unconquered

I just don't understand why anyone expects these changes to occur this generation -- EA has clearly reached the limit of what the current engine(s) can do. That was apparent three years ago. The change should come on the next-gen consoles.

That said ... I'd say NCAA 13 is the best football game I've ever played, going back 20 years.

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I don't agree at all. Madden is in the same generation and it's gone far and above in gameplay this season. There are things that need fixing but the new engine (which WILL be in NCAA next season by the way) makes a huge HUGE difference. This engine will change the game next year imo. I hope I'm right.

i think if the hardcore community were allowed to shape and steer the game more and earlier in the process, we'd see a larger change from year to year. in my eyes, ea cares way too much about their own agenda for the game. they dont realize how valuable the info our hardcore community sites present, actually is.

year after year, they continually tout meaningless crap that very few actually cares about. sure, hdr lighting makes the game look great, but does the casual fan really care about the fact that "shadows on a player's jersey are now going to be accurate based on what time it is in the day?" for the past 2 years, they've praised this as an important feature that greatly improves the visuals (which it does, dont get me wrong).....but when talking community wishlist items regarding visuals, what items always come up? hairstyles, sock lengths, uniforms, mascots, and other team accessories. very few people out there give a crap about the clouds moving across the sky. it all comes back to the agenda thing. in order to get a better product, they need to use our feedback more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by baseballplyrmvp

i think if the hardcore community were allowed to shape and steer the game more and earlier in the process, we'd see a larger change from year to year. in my eyes, ea cares way too much about their own agenda for the game. they dont realize how valuable the info our hardcore community sites present, actually is.

year after year, they continually tout meaningless crap that very few actually cares about. sure, hdr lighting makes the game look great, but does the casual fan really care about the fact that "shadows on a player's jersey are now going to be accurate based on what time it is in the day?" for the past 2 years, they've praised this as an important feature that greatly improves the visuals (which it does, dont get me wrong).....but when talking community wishlist items regarding visuals, what items always come up? hairstyles, sock lengths, uniforms, mascots, and other team accessories. very few people out there give a crap about the clouds moving across the sky. it all comes back to the agenda thing. in order to get a better product, they need to use our feedback more.

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NBA 2k13 just game me a terrific idea for the game changers to pass on to the boys a Tiburon.

Move over shoe creator, welcome in the Dread Creator.

Each NCAA team has their own virtual barber where you can pick out a set of dreads, see how they look and if you desire to you can automatically post it on a Facebook page. That is back of the box good and I am just passing this stuff out for free. Just imagine the kind of stuff I could blow all your minds with if there was money involved.

So help me god if they actually waste their time with stupid retarded shit like "dread creator" or virtual barbers. What the fuck would even be the point? The players are wearing goddamn helmets!

Now bdoughty, I'm assuming you're probably joking about that, but I'm sure some dumbass on the EA forums or wherever else is thinking that same line of thinking and will be bitching about it not being the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by psuexv

Well I have to disagree with the showing of 4 different screen shots to compare the titles. I get what they were trying to say but nobody has really complained too much about the visuals of NCAA. Yes they add progressive lighting and shadows and all that stuff to make it look better but gameplay is where you would be able to tell the difference. The Visuals to me in NCAA have always been good and really don't need to change.

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Yeah, I think that was a very unfair way to label the games as being too similar. The Show is a great game but it has largely been the same and has made less changes to features than EA's football games over the same period of time. But it doesn't have to change much since it's so good. Kind of a catch-22. You could probably take screenshots from any sports game or a series like COD and get the same reaction.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kwizzy

The problem IMO though is that the things that are TRULY holding this game back are core/foundational principles of physics and football.

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I truly believe going away from a scripted ratings based system to a true physics engine will be huge for EA's football games. And for the record I disagree with Owen Good when he refers to the Infinity Engine as "Real Time Physics". IE was nothing more than a tackling engine. It was nice but foot planting and player momentum along with proper acceleration are still completely missing. It's a LONG way from being anything close to real physics.

The other thing both games need to fix is cpu AI. The cpu doesn't use it's personel right and that will never show up in a screenshot. Play calling and time management are poor. It would be nice if NCAA added player tendencies - even if just to the QB so they can prevent non running QBs from running the option play just because it's in the playbook.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bdoughty

NBA 2k13 just game me a terrific idea for the game changers to pass on to the boys a Tiburon.

Move over shoe creator, welcome in the Dread Creator.

Each NCAA team has their own virtual barber where you can pick out a set of dreads, see how they look and if you desire to you can automatically post it on a Facebook page. That is back of the box good and I am just passing this stuff out for free. Just imagine the kind of stuff I could blow all your minds with if there was money involved.

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the mentioning of the visuals was merely an example, but based on how you describe this dread creator, it sounds stupider than shit. :D

my point was more of the fact that we frequently ask for a certain set of criteria to be in the game, yet get other stuff that no one on the planet has asked for. even though they absolutely nailed the passing game overhaul this year, it worked just fine before, and no one asked for it to be changed.