Anyone Open To Bumping Difficulty To AA?

[nykia31]

Just a thought.

We all know that offense is going to be what it is, for the most part, regardless...however I was chatting with Mr. Ryby last night, and looking at his roster...and scratching my head at the scores of his games :smh:

We're entering the home stretch as it is, with the game, so I figured I'd toss that out there for discussion :nod:

[psusnoop]

I have been working on some Heisman sliders actually. I would be interested in trying out anything though.

[gschwendt]

I'm up for any changes... this season has been one of the more frustrating for me in terms of gameplay.

[texacotea]

I'm up for any changes... this season has been one of the more frustrating for me in terms of gameplay.

:+1::+1::+1::+1::+1:

[psusnoop]

I have steelerfan's heisman and I'm going to be playing through a season with PSU but I have used these earlier and they seemed to work good.

Something worth checking out and using as a starting point for any to try. I will post them tonight when I get online.

[Oneback]

So I have to ask, before making changes to AA or Heisman, etc what are we attempting to accomplish? Just asking a serious question.

[gschwendt]

So I have to ask, before making changes to AA or Heisman, etc what are we attempting to accomplish? Just asking a serious question.
Not sure if you asking about specific areas or what but for me, I don't care if the CPU gives up 100 points a game so long as the User vs User games are so frustrating. I've seen way too many times where my starting 4 CBs (all with 92+ MCV, one 99MCV) will get lost in Cover 2 Man Under... that's probably my biggest complaint.

There are other complaints but those mostly fall to EA in that they're hard/impossible to fix.

[Oneback]

Not sure if you asking about specific areas or what but for me, I don't care if the CPU gives up 100 points a game so long as the User vs User games are so frustrating. I've seen way too many times where my starting 4 CBs (all with 92+ MCV, one 99MCV) will get lost in Cover 2 Man Under... that's probably my biggest complaint.

There are other complaints but those mostly fall to EA in that they're hard/impossible to fix.

I don't know that corners getting lost in Cover 2 Man Under is a problem that's fixable on any level, we had the same exact problem on Heisman once people started figuring out how to break C2 - on any out breaking route or corner route the corner will rarely if ever cover it, double moves will kill C2. Everyone uses C2 Man so much I've constructed my playbook in such a way that I either have an out breaking route in all my concepts or I formation audible to a play that has one if I recognize C2 Man at the LOS.

I hardly ever call Cover 2 Man because I know the limitations and its easily recognizable at the LOS, this was the reasoning behind some of my questions in the other thread about NCAA 14.

Now will C2 cover some routes, certainly, but if my opponent continously calls C2 why should I keep calling those routes?

[nykia31]

Who knows..it all seems so hit and miss.

I see these stacked defenses giving up 40 points..then you'll see a game where there arent a million broken tackles, and the talent differences in coverage and on the line of scrimmage are somewhat respected.

One game, I cant do anything out of the flexbone...blocks are being shed left and right, and there are guys shooting through the backfield all day..they very next game..going up against just as talented a team..im able to to run for 180 yds on 6 ypc.

We're all good users here..it just seems like a total crapshoot as to what type of game you are going to get. Maybe difficulty level cannot help that aspect of the game out.

[Oneback]

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind changing things but change for the sake of change isn't productive. If changing things will provide a tested and verified fix, I'm game.

[JeffHCross]

I have steelerfan's heisman and I'm going to be playing through a season with PSU but I have used these earlier and they seemed to work good.

Something worth checking out and using as a starting point for any to try. I will post them tonight when I get online.AFAIK, steeler hadn't changed his in months, and I thought his sliders and what we originally started with this year were pretty similar.

[psusnoop]

AFAIK, steeler hadn't changed his in months, and I thought his sliders and what we originally started with this year were pretty similar.

That is sort of true, he has recently starting playing NCAA again and we've been going over numbers and thinking of any tweaks to make.

Once I get a few more games in here I will be making some tweaks to :sf:'s and ill post them. Tonight or tomorrow night I hope to hit the half way mark of the season.

[JeffHCross]

Snoop, one thing I have to point out is that there is a massive difference between early dynasty and where we're at now. Not sure where you are in yours. When I use our current sliders in a Year 1 dynasty I get my ass handed to me.

[psuexv]

IMO and not sure if this is the game itself and the fact that our teams are that good or if it's the sliders but User games are not even fun anymore. I've been losing since we started this year and in the beginning user games were competitive and I was into them and felt like I had somewhat of a chance. Now they just seem like a crapshoot. It's all offense and basically whoever doesn't get hit with the drops or fumbles wins.

I know we had the cheesiness with our original sliders but I'd be willing to go back to them.

[Oneback]

IMO and not sure if this is the game itself and the fact that our teams are that good or if it's the sliders but User games are not even fun anymore. I've been losing since we started this year and in the beginning user games were competitive and I was into them and felt like I had somewhat of a chance. Now they just seem like a crapshoot. It's all offense and basically whoever doesn't get hit with the drops or fumbles wins.

I know we had the cheesiness with our original sliders but I'd be willing to go back to them.

I'm not sure what to take of this, there seems to be a lot of complaining but not a lot of constructive critisim or trying to work towards a solution.

The only thing I've heard thus far is drops (a few times) and inability to cover (gschwendt). Drops may be a little high, but on the other hand our completion % is still higher than average as well (http://www.thegamingtailgate.com/forums/showthread.php?6671-Team-Stats-2018).

As for the competitiveness comment, there have been 25 user vs user games thus far this season and on average the home team has scored 34.24 pts and the Away team 38.08, not sure how much more competitive we can make it.

Again, I'm fine with changing things but give me ideas or solutions to the problems you're having or even just explain the problem completely and I'll test, if I haven't already, and see what I can come up with.

Drops are a problem, they suck, especially when they happen on 3rd down, however without them we will all be completing passes at a 75+% rate then we'll all be complaining because there is no defense, like we were before.

[psusnoop]

I'll be honest, the drops don't bother me one bit. I look at them as an inaccurate throw honestly since that really isn't the game currently.

[psuexv]

I'm not sure what to take of this, there seems to be a lot of complaining but not a lot of constructive critisim or trying to work towards a solution.

The only thing I've heard thus far is drops (a few times) and inability to cover (gschwendt). Drops may be a little high, but on the other hand our completion % is still higher than average as well (http://www.thegamingtailgate.com/forums/showthread.php?6671-Team-Stats-2018).

As for the competitiveness comment, there have been 25 user vs user games thus far this season and on average the home team has scored 34.24 pts and the Away team 38.08, not sure how much more competitive we can make it.

Again, I'm fine with changing things but give me ideas or solutions to the problems you're having or even just explain the problem completely and I'll test, if I haven't already, and see what I can come up with.

Drops are a problem, they suck, especially when they happen on 3rd down, however without them we will all be completing passes at a 75+% rate then we'll all be complaining because there is no defense, like we were before.

I'm not really complaining just throwing my two cents out there adding my thoughts to the discussion. I understand the games are close but they still don't feel competitive, IMO. I guess I mean I just don't feel in the game and as I stated it just feels like an offensive slugfest and whoever gets the breaks wins(yes I know teams that get breaks usually win but hopefully you understand my point)

Drops are what they are and I don't really feel they are the issue, are they frustrating yeah, but I completely agree that drops are basically taking the place of passer inaccuracies. I think because there really isn't any defense it's the team that doesn't usually get hit with the key drops that seems to pull it out.

I think we'd all be in agreement that there was way more defense before and maybe I just don't remember but I don't remember too much complaining before.

I offered the solution of going back to the original sliders, maybe a combination of those sliders with WR catching dropped down?

[JBHuskers]

Agree with Eric there. It's who lucks out wins.

[Oneback]

I'm not really complaining just throwing my two cents out there adding my thoughts to the discussion. I understand the games are close but they still don't feel competitive, IMO. I guess I mean I just don't feel in the game and as I stated it just feels like an offensive slugfest and whoever gets the breaks wins(yes I know teams that get breaks usually win but hopefully you understand my point)

Drops are what they are and I don't really feel they are the issue, are they frustrating yeah, but I completely agree that drops are basically taking the place of passer inaccuracies. I think because there really isn't any defense it's the team that doesn't usually get hit with the key drops that seems to pull it out.

I think we'd all be in agreement that there was way more defense before and maybe I just don't remember but I don't remember too much complaining before.

I offered the solution of going back to the original sliders, maybe a combination of those sliders with WR catching dropped down?

I don't know that we'd all be in agreement that there was more defense previously. I remember under the previous sliders feeling helpless on defense more than just a few times where I either had to sell out to make something happen or hope I got a turnover.

Just for comparison sake, last year in the real NCAA where both teams were ranked in the top 25 the winning team averaged 36.93 points and the losing team averaged 22.36 points, this year in the OD, the winning team has averaged 42.8 points and the losing team 29.52 points.

Those numbers are slightly elevated, but its not surprising given that we are averaging a +2% completion rate, +3 yards per attempt and +0.2 yards per carry over real life. Is it perfect, no, but it's not all that dissimilar.

[Oneback]

Agree with Eric there. It's who lucks out wins.

That may be the case, but I'll ask the question - When has luck not be the prevailing factor in the NCAA series? I've played 100-200+ online games per year since NCAA 2003 when you factor in league/dynasty games and can only think of a handful of games that weren't decided by luck.

[nykia31]

Well, I saw a first. I had a CB covering a guy stride for stride on a drag route, Tex steps up with his QB...I have him spied, and the CB in man coverage LEAVES the WR. Just abandons him. 20+ yard completion and that pretty much iced the game.

I havent seen that happen all year. :smh:

[JeffHCross]

OB, when games are competitive in the 30s, that means that they're pretty high scoring, for user games.

I think everyone in the SEC would agree that I won my national championship with defense. Other than my first game on the new sliders, which was a defensively-dominated game against Ryby, I never felt like I had a strong defense after that. You could argue that my national championship was largely luck because I had a ridiculously high turnover margin, but I forced a fair number of those turnovers with an aggressive, attacking defense.

Under the new sliders, practically the only defensive strength I had was being able to manually pass rush with the DE. Everything else, similar to what Eric said, felt like just trying to hang on.

Now there's lots of factors at play. Our teams are constantly changing, so comparing between years is difficult. Maybe our defenses just aren't progressing like they should. Maybe we're just getting too damn good at passing. But you know that starting with the first new sliders you played against me I thought the offense had the advantage and the defense just wasn't reacting quickly enough. I'm not sure we ever found the "answer" to that.

The reality is, most likely, offenses are supposed to have the advantage on Varsity. It just makes sense. So maybe there's not an answer.

I'm not saying every game on Heisman was perfect. There's some pre-game, behind the scenes, randomization going on. There has to be. I know Papa can be unstoppable against me. But, on average, the new sliders made me feel like I couldn't make a play on defense, at least more so than the previous sliders.


One stat that would interest me is number of possessions and number of punts. Those are two important factors to consider along with PPG.

[nykia31]

Just by looking at user scores on a week to week basis..there just seems to be a much wider variance then I remember seeing before.

Ryby has an absolutely loaded team. Good offense for his style..on D his front 7 is sick..yet there are just as many games(probably more) when he is in shootouts, then not.

My D has played pretty well when you look at points. Certainly giving up enough to give me a shot at winning. My O has been the clunker this season..but it just doesnt feel right. I dont feel any fear or hesitation in attacking 99 mcv cb's..that's a problem.

I feel like the trenches and passrush is as good as we can make it, given what we have t owork with: I have a strong run blocking OL, and they really do a good job of pulling on power plays and holding the point of attack on sweeps and stretches...my tackles are weak at pass protection, and I feel it...still feel like there are too many broken tackles, but I chalk that up to us having an abundance of high elusiveness-high break tackle rated skill position players.

[texacotea]

Just by looking at user scores on a week to week basis..there just seems to be a much wider variance then I remember seeing before.

Ryby has an absolutely loaded team. Good offense for his style..on D his front 7 is sick..yet there are just as many games(probably more) when he is in shootouts, then not.

My D has played pretty well when you look at points. Certainly giving up enough to give me a shot at winning. My O has been the clunker this season..but it just doesnt feel right. I dont feel any fear or hesitation in attacking 99 mcv cb's..that's a problem.

I feel like the trenches and passrush is as good as we can make it, given what we have t owork with: I have a strong run blocking OL, and they really do a good job of pulling on power plays and holding the point of attack on sweeps and stretches...my tackles are weak at pass protection, and I feel it...still feel like there are too many broken tackles, but I chalk that up to us having an abundance of high elusiveness-high break tackle rated skill position players.

This is a big thing for me. In the first couple seasons I felt you could tell the difference between highly rated CBs and ones that are not. But now I have 3 guys in the 90+ range on all coverage ratings yet a couple get beat on a regular basis.

[Oneback]

Here's the thing however, the numbers don't bear out that defenses are getting beat on a regular basis, here are the total stats just for User vs User games:

Winning Teams:

Rushing:
Att - 771
Yds - 3288
Avg - 4.26

Passing:
CMP - 458
ATT - 641
CMP % - 71.4
YDS - 8370
YPA - 13.06
TD - 72
INT - 15
TD/INT - 0.21

Losing Teams:

Rushing:
Att - 581
YDS - 1540
AVG - 2.65

Passing:
CMP - 523
ATT - 823
CMP % - 63.5
YDS - 8812
YDS/ATT - 10.71
TD - 64
INT - 42
TD/INT - 0.66

There are three things that really stand out:


The losing team has a really hard time gaining yards on the ground with 5 games resulting in negative rushing yards and overall they are averaging 1.61 yards less per carry (not really shocking however).
Yards per Attempt are inflated across the board - we knew this, if I could take 3 yards per attempt out of each side I think it would be where we need it.
The losing team throws A LOT of interceptions - I have run the real life comps but I'm not sure the TD/INT numbers are that high, I could be wrong however.


What I don't see however is the completion %'s being too high for the winning team or too low for the losing team, we can debate what the completion % should be but I'd imagine in real life it would fall in between 67 and 72% for the winning team and 58 to 65% for the losing team.

I get what everyone is saying about highly MCV rated corners, but lets not forget the flip side, they are trying to cover 90+ OVR, 90-95+ RTE rated WR's as well.

The biggest problem I see is yards/attempt and I'm not sure what we can do about that - at this point I see yards/carry and interception rate as minor issues until I can further research.

If everyone wants to move to AA next season with the same sliders then tweak from there in an effort to get the yards/att down I'm open to doing so. I I contend however the problem with yards/att isn't a factor of sliders its symptomatic of the game itself, if you call Cover 1 you get beat on curls and out breaking routes, Cover 2 gets beat right up the middle, Cover 2 Man (probably the best and most relied upon defense in the game) gets beat on out breaking routes, Cover 3 gives up Curls, Comebacks and out breaking routes, Cover 4 will give up underneath passes that result in 10+ yard gains regularly. The problem is that each of the defenses given to us are highly exploitable at a high rate, this has happened on every difficulty level, its only magnified because we've got multiple players on each team that are rated like all-time greats.

If we had defenses that reacted to threats in a realistic manner we wouldn't have the problems with yards/att and scoring would go down and there would be more possession changes because instead of going 0 for 2 on 1st and 2nd down then hitting a 15 yard out route on third down, you may complete a pass on 3rd down but it'd only be for 7 - 9 yards, that's huge difference in the flow of a game. With all the other stats "in line" yards/att has prolonged drives, inflated scoring and it gives the feeling of getting beat even though for the most part your defense is playing well.

This has been a huge problem for the NCAA series and the prime reason why I was always talking to the Devs about defense while I was apart of the community program, now in NCAA 14 I think the answer is to probably start with non-powerhouse teams, but that bell can't be un-rung in NCAA 13 at this point.

[psuexv]

OB - I'm sure we don't have the numbers but it would be a good comparison to compare user games from the 1st few seasons to after we made the switch. To me yards/completion are high because the defense is just porous. I understand that these good corners are going up against good WRs but they still shouldn't be open by 10+ yards multiple times a game, everyone gets beat every now and then but it's too consistent.

[Oneback]

OB - I'm sure we don't have the numbers but it would be a good comparison to compare user games from the 1st few seasons to after we made the switch. To me yards/completion are high because the defense is just porous. I understand that these good corners are going up against good WRs but they still shouldn't be open by 10+ yards multiple times a game, everyone gets beat every now and then but it's too consistent.

Unfortunately, I don't still have the stats from the early years - I thought I had backed them up when I switched to my new computer. From memory however, yards/att were higher due to CMP% being higher and safties being exploitable (mainly in Cover 2/4) which is the reason why I started looking into new sliders.

If we want to try AA next season with no slider changes I'm okay with going that route, lets just be aware things may be tough early in the season while I'm gathering data to make changes.

[Escobar]

I'm cool with moving to All-American. My defense gets beat ridiculously. I have had the worst pass defense these past two years, especially in user games.

[psusnoop]

I'd be good with a jump back up to AA.

[psuexv]

I'm game... let's give it a whirl

[JBHuskers]

I'm game... let's give it a whirl

:+1:

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[psusnoop]

I'm game... let's give it a whirl


I've heard you say that statement before :sick:

http://www.steroidtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/fatpeople.png

[Escobar]

I strongly recommend moving, especially after this last game. There is no way I should know what play you are going to call, know the receiver you are throwing to, know the route he is going to run, call a play specifically to stop said player/play, spotlight said player, completely sell out my defense to stop said play/player, and he still ends up wide buck naked open 95% of the time. I did everything, mixed up zone, man, bnr, and it didn't matter. Ryby wouldn't even attempt to run on 3rd and short. Just run that slant to #83, because he was wide open everytime no matter what.

I also don't remember if it was psuexv who said it, but everytime he threw my corners would just stop running and wait for him to catch the ball. They wouldn't even attempt to make a play on the ball.

[razorback44]

Here's the thing however, the numbers don't bear out that defenses are getting beat on a regular basis, here are the total stats just for User vs User games:

Winning Teams:

Rushing:
Att - 771
Yds - 3288
Avg - 4.26

Passing:
CMP - 458
ATT - 641
CMP % - 71.4
YDS - 8370
YPA - 13.06
TD - 72
INT - 15
TD/INT - 0.21

Losing Teams:

Rushing:
Att - 581
YDS - 1540
AVG - 2.65

Passing:
CMP - 523
ATT - 823
CMP % - 63.5
YDS - 8812
YDS/ATT - 10.71
TD - 64
INT - 42
TD/INT - 0.66

There are three things that really stand out:


The losing team has a really hard time gaining yards on the ground with 5 games resulting in negative rushing yards and overall they are averaging 1.61 yards less per carry (not really shocking however).
Yards per Attempt are inflated across the board - we knew this, if I could take 3 yards per attempt out of each side I think it would be where we need it.
The losing team throws A LOT of interceptions - I have run the real life comps but I'm not sure the TD/INT numbers are that high, I could be wrong however.


What I don't see however is the completion %'s being too high for the winning team or too low for the losing team, we can debate what the completion % should be but I'd imagine in real life it would fall in between 67 and 72% for the winning team and 58 to 65% for the losing team.

I get what everyone is saying about highly MCV rated corners, but lets not forget the flip side, they are trying to cover 90+ OVR, 90-95+ RTE rated WR's as well.

The biggest problem I see is yards/attempt and I'm not sure what we can do about that - at this point I see yards/carry and interception rate as minor issues until I can further research.

If everyone wants to move to AA next season with the same sliders then tweak from there in an effort to get the yards/att down I'm open to doing so. I I contend however the problem with yards/att isn't a factor of sliders its symptomatic of the game itself, if you call Cover 1 you get beat on curls and out breaking routes, Cover 2 gets beat right up the middle, Cover 2 Man (probably the best and most relied upon defense in the game) gets beat on out breaking routes, Cover 3 gives up Curls, Comebacks and out breaking routes, Cover 4 will give up underneath passes that result in 10+ yard gains regularly. The problem is that each of the defenses given to us are highly exploitable at a high rate, this has happened on every difficulty level, its only magnified because we've got multiple players on each team that are rated like all-time greats.

If we had defenses that reacted to threats in a realistic manner we wouldn't have the problems with yards/att and scoring would go down and there would be more possession changes because instead of going 0 for 2 on 1st and 2nd down then hitting a 15 yard out route on third down, you may complete a pass on 3rd down but it'd only be for 7 - 9 yards, that's huge difference in the flow of a game. With all the other stats "in line" yards/att has prolonged drives, inflated scoring and it gives the feeling of getting beat even though for the most part your defense is playing well.

This has been a huge problem for the NCAA series and the prime reason why I was always talking to the Devs about defense while I was apart of the community program, now in NCAA 14 I think the answer is to probably start with non-powerhouse teams, but that bell can't be un-rung in NCAA 13 at this point.

Awesome post.

[JeffHCross]

OB, two things that your numbers don't quite take into consideration, IMO. First, there's a big difference between the type of rushing numbers I was putting up and what Snoop would put up. Obviously I should have higher ATT too, but that's still an influence when you combine them. Second, sacks as rushing yards skews those YPA numbers horribly. I know you're comparing to real life college stats so that's apples to apples, but 4+ yards per carry, with the number of sacks some of us were getting, is crazy.

Honestly, every number can come out right in certain circumstances, but if drives can't be stopped, does it really matter what the numbers say? I know you're right about the holes the game has, especially in pass coverage, but I didn't feel like those holes were quite as exploitable on the old sliders.