Kotaku: NCAA Football 13 Was More of the Same Rather Than Anything New

[gschwendt]

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7096/7401016168_52ed443263_o.jpg


An article from Kotaku's Owen Good echoes much of the communities feelings on the NCAA Football series... not enough changes from year to year. That is, nothing is innovative and distinguishes itself from a previous version.

As part of that article, Good reveals that shortly after launch, the NCAA 13 development team was presented with a creative debriefing asking them to guess from various screenshots from NCAA 10 through NCAA 13 which one belonged to each year. The presenter didn't receive an answer.

While the presentation was apparently only focused on visuals, I don't believe that's where it should have stopped. I believe you could do much of the same, even with highly acclaimed sports game series such as MLB: The Show or NBA 2k. Obviously the impact was felt with the developers but a change in visuals isn't enough to distinguish one game from another. To truly set one year apart from another, it will take a combination of things. It will take wowing the community with features, much like Madden 13 did. It will take tightening up what you already have, much like MLB: The Show does every year. Then once you have all of that, toss on a new coat of paint.

While I don't agree with everything the writer has to say, he does do a very good job of echoing the communities feelings on the series. It's stale and it needs a shot in the arm. It needs something more than Heisman Challenge. The article is certainly worth a read and while it doesn't go into any details for plans for NCAA Football 14, it does show you that the developers know they have to do something more.

Kotaku: Which One of These Things Is Not Like the Other? NCAA 14 Must Supply an Answer (http://kotaku.com/5951081/which-one-of-these-things-is-not-like-the-other-ncaa-14-must-supply-an-answer)

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You can view the page at http://www.thegamingtailgate.com/forums/content.php?632-Kotaku-NCAA-Football-13-Was-More-of-the-Same-Rather-Than-Anything-New

[Kwizzy]

I actually sat down yesterday to write out a complete summary of the core issues as I see them within this franchise... Not only '13 but the series in general. I stopped 2 paragraphs in because I realized that I have sent this document to the devs time and again since I got involved with the community days a couple years ago. It really bothered me to do so because I used to really enjoy sitting down and laying out my thoughts on the issues with the game. I want to make clear that I am not laying this all at the feet of the dev team. In my experience, they would like to fix and add many of the same things we all would like to have. This is a finger pointed at EVERYONE at EA who has the ability to influence the direction of this franchise.

I'm simply at the point where it's too frustrating to spend my time and energy trying to give feedback as the game currently stands. The issues are much larger and more basic/fundamental than I think anyone involved is willing to acknowledge. It's not worth it to me to spend time pointing out specific examples of some of these issues when the reason they keep happening is much more globally obvious. For instance, it's a waste of time to point out one instance of bad blocking logic so that they can focus in on that one situation. If you play the game for an extended period of time you see countless examples of FBs and OL being indecisive, OL knowing a CB is blitzing automatically, etc....

The game gives the appearance of football very well on the face of things. The problem with that is that when you look closely, the details are so maddening that it makes the game unplayable after a shorter and shorter period of time each year. Now I understand that the illusion of football is more than enough to sell copies to the masses and that those who love nothing more than to bash EA & the devs state that as their reason this is the case. However I have been told on countless occasions, and have interacted with the devs enough to know that they would really love for this to not be the case.

I don't really have a point or a purpose with this rant. This article simply came at a time where I have been growing more and more frustrated.

[psuexv]

Well I have to disagree with the showing of 4 different screen shots to compare the titles. I get what they were trying to say but nobody has really complained too much about the visuals of NCAA. Yes they add progressive lighting and shadows and all that stuff to make it look better but gameplay is where you would be able to tell the difference. The Visuals to me in NCAA have always been good and really don't need to change.

In '13 you can definitely tell the difference in gameplay over '12. Yes they missed on some things like Defensive Alignment and still haven't figured out Lineman and WR/DB interactions but they definitely added some nice features to this years game that makes it feel different.

Pass trajectories are IMO the best addition so far. Of course it can get better but it is a very nice addition where it stands now.

Adding that defensive players need to see the ball to react to it is another huge difference over previous years. Once again, it can get better as you still have some instances where you just aren't quite sure how the DB made that play but overall it's another welcomed change.

Overall I think '13 was heads and tails better than '12 and to me that's a good thing. If we were to stay on this generation and they were to continue on a path that they laid out from 12 to 13 I would be extremely happy. Consistency is a good thing. I don't want to have to relearn a new game and have different menus and completely different features every year. Do I want them to continually fix things that are wrong and improve on things, absolutely.

[gschwendt]

IMO NCAA13 is better and worse at the same time. It's better in the things they added (trajectories, catch animations, etc.) but it's worse in things they didn't address. OL/DL is as bad as ever been, DB play is at times worse than 12, the fact that the option defenders still stand still, continued issues with ODs and transfer failed style errors, the fact that there are countless issues with the game that have been there since last gen, the fact that there are still several small features that Madden has that NCAA never did... those things just echo that, yeah they added to the game but they didn't do a good job of revisiting old issues. That's my main problem... there are still too many old issues that even when they add new toys, the entertainment only lasts until you inevitably hit one of those issues.

[Unconquered]

I just don't understand why anyone expects these changes to occur this generation -- EA has clearly reached the limit of what the current engine(s) can do. That was apparent three years ago. The change should come on the next-gen consoles.

That said ... I'd say NCAA 13 is the best football game I've ever played, going back 20 years.

[psuexv]

IMO NCAA13 is better and worse at the same time. It's better in the things they added (trajectories, catch animations, etc.) but it's worse in things they didn't address. OL/DL is as bad as ever been, DB play is at times worse than 12, the fact that the option defenders still stand still, continued issues with ODs and transfer failed style errors, the fact that there are countless issues with the game that have been there since last gen, the fact that there are still several small features that Madden has that NCAA never did... those things just echo that, yeah they added to the game but they didn't do a good job of revisiting old issues. That's my main problem... there are still too many old issues that even when they add new toys, the entertainment only lasts until you inevitably hit one of those issues.

I can agree with this.

[Kwizzy]

The problem IMO though is that the things that are TRULY holding this game back are core/foundational principles of physics and football. Sure they can make modest improvements to the way DBs play routes but the real problem is that the DB isn't reading any keys. The results are things like the CB sprinting towards a run play from the instant the ball is snapped and completely abandoning his coverage responsibilities. The way the plays are made to work means that when you quick audible from a run to a pass within the same formation the defense moves too. They can make it so the DB has to see the ball to make a play on it but that doesn't change the fact that the DB can change directions instantly as soon as he does see the ball.

The most fundamental elements of football like leverage & reads are completely absent at this point & the result is a skyscraper built on a foundation made of mashmallows. The engine ends up accounting for this lack of fundamentals in whatever way is easiest & the result is frustrating BS plays.

The changes that need to be made to give this game a new feel and allow the game to make dramatic steps forward in the next few years are very core to the way this game works. My worry is that these changes are too big to undertake and the more lucrative alternative is to keep moving forward with the "illusion of football".

[Tako 715]

Here are some things that would help make the game more enjoyable for me, a long time fan of the series.

Menus/Navigation – There is a lot going on in NCAA13. It is hard to navigate and slow. It would be nice if they went simple with it, put most of the options on the screen with simple scrolling. Instead of the crazy ESPN transformer like graphics just use simple pictures of real players, cheerleaders, mascots, and fans as a background. You could really pull that off and have it look sharp.

Gameplay/Atmosphere – It will never be perfect, just keep fine-tuning. I would like to see the option worked on a little more. Also, get more plays and new plays. We can always use that to make each offensive style more different, it really is what makes the game replayable. Keep working on the atmosphere, really ramp up the crowd for night games with ranked teams and rivalry games. There should be more happening on the field, all 11 guys in the end zone celebrating, people on the sideline going crazy. Maybe a shot of the coach holding up a 1 or 2 after a TD and the team going bonkers behind him and the crowd rushing the field in an upset. Currently they got the atmosphere of an 11am game between Wisconsin and Indiana.

Dynasty – Coaching Carousel was a great idea, now they just need to fix it. Added customization and number of conferences, scheduling and playoff teams, the possibilities would be endless. Am I the only one who loved the SI covers back in ’04? They do not need to have SI, but make a weekly national magazine cover, that would be cool. Recruiting needs to be simplified, it takes too long. I like the new scouting feature, but can we get rid of phone calls? Are you really pumped up that you got 110pts for talking about “Athletic Facilities”? Let’s eliminate all topics and just give us time to use each week and we can assume they talked about all the right things. For an advantage on prospects closer to home you can add an unofficial visits, where prospects will go on unofficial visits to schools they are both interested in, close to and don’t have another visit planned that week. You are alerted of the visits as your game is loading.

Just these few things would not be a huge change but would make a big deal for me.

[CLW]

I agree with the article and at this point in the cycle the series it what it is. 14 will largely be 13 rehashed with the infinity engine and possibly some other cosmetic changes. Honestly if they fixed: (1) OL/DL interaction; (2) Pass Coverage; and (3) CPU Play Call Logic I would be pretty happy. However, they either won't do it or can't do it. So we will get further window dressing and can only hope that the next generation of consoles brings the change needed for the series.

[Kwizzy]

The problem is I very highly doubt that they start over again on the next gen of consoles so the same core issues will be there.

IMO the following are the biggest core issues:

-Physics (Both in interactions and in individual player movement. Fortunately it looks as though they have been working on this behind the scenes and are in the process of addressing this.)

-Run fits and leverage

-Blocking schemes/assignment and execution

-Defenders reaction/keys

-Play design & implementation

-CPU Competitiveness (play calling, decision, making, exectuion, adaptiveness)

[Gator3guy]

The problem IMO though is that the things that are TRULY holding this game back are core/foundational principles of physics and football. Sure they can make modest improvements to the way DBs play routes but the real problem is that the DB isn't reading any keys. The results are things like the CB sprinting towards a run play from the instant the ball is snapped and completely abandoning his coverage responsibilities. The way the plays are made to work means that when you quick audible from a run to a pass within the same formation the defense moves too. They can make it so the DB has to see the ball to make a play on it but that doesn't change the fact that the DB can change directions instantly as soon as he does see the ball.

The most fundamental elements of football like leverage & reads are completely absent at this point & the result is a skyscraper built on a foundation made of mashmallows. The engine ends up accounting for this lack of fundamentals in whatever way is easiest & the result is frustrating BS plays.

The changes that need to be made to give this game a new feel and allow the game to make dramatic steps forward in the next few years are very core to the way this game works. My worry is that these changes are too big to undertake and the more lucrative alternative is to keep moving forward with the "illusion of football".

100% agree. This needs to be priority #1 on next gen. Realistic movement of players- momentum, change of direction, collisions, etc. The entire foundation of gameplay relies on it. The movement on ps2 was lightyears better than on ps3/360. It's night and day. That's part of the reason "next gen" gaming has been a disaster.

Player models and colors are brutal as well. Players are so disproportional and unrealistic looking. Jersey's don't fit properly. The colors are so dull. They don't pop like they do on TV. I could definitely overlook these issues if the gameplay and player movement was more realistic, but when its not, these issues just add up to an underwhelming experience for me.

The crowd has been lacking this entire generation and has taken away from the college atmosphere and feel, but it seems they are working on that aspect finally.

I didn't buy 13. First time I passed on the series since 99. Honestly, I haven't missed it or had the urge to play it. Bring the fun back EA. Enough with the gimmicks.

[Kwizzy]

I would also say that having played the game the last couple of years a couple of times throughout the development process.... Something they are doing to "tighten the game up" as they get towards release date is really overpowered. What I mean by this is that I've felt like the game has been much more fun to play before the final version of the game hits shelves. It seems like animations and things like that are much more varied and the gameplay feels much more fluid. I think that in the process of getting rid of bugs, glitches, etc... they are taking some of the fun factor out of the game.

[ryby6969]

The problem is I very highly doubt that they start over again on the next gen of consoles so the same core issues will be there.

IMO the following are the biggest core issues:

-Physics (Both in interactions and in individual player movement. Fortunately it looks as though they have been working on this behind the scenes and are in the process of addressing this.)

-Run fits and leverage

-Blocking schemes/assignment and execution

-Defenders reaction/keys

-Play design & implementation

-CPU Competitiveness (play calling, decision, making, exectuion, adaptiveness)

From playing Madden this year, I enjoy playing against the run much more then I do in the NCAA games because of IE. It is not perfect, but just little things like being rewarded for a LB stepping up in the hole to take on a blocker is huge IMO. It does not tie into movement enough this season and I do not think size has the impact it should yet, but it is definitely a step in the right direction. I am really hoping they completely redo OL/DL interaction as well as WR/DB interaction with the addition of IE. If they can make size have more of an impact on the game, it will change many different levels of the game.

You would have to think if you really want that 210lb linebacker just because he has 90 speed or the 220 DE because you run the risk of getting ran all over because they are undersized. It would actually make different styles of play actually feel different which is something that is sorely needed. My problem with Madden is, well it is the NFL. I LOVE recruiting and just love CFB in general and cannot wait to see what is done with another year of IE.

[WolverineJay]

The problem is I very highly doubt that they start over again on the next gen of consoles so the same core issues will be there.

IMO the following are the biggest core issues:

-Physics (Both in interactions and in individual player movement. Fortunately it looks as though they have been working on this behind the scenes and are in the process of addressing this.)

-Run fits and leverage

-Blocking schemes/assignment and execution

-Defenders reaction/keys

-Play design & implementation

-CPU Competitiveness (play calling, decision, making, exectuion, adaptiveness)


The problem IMO though is that the things that are TRULY holding this game back are core/foundational principles of physics and football. Sure they can make modest improvements to the way DBs play routes but the real problem is that the DB isn't reading any keys. The results are things like the CB sprinting towards a run play from the instant the ball is snapped and completely abandoning his coverage responsibilities. The way the plays are made to work means that when you quick audible from a run to a pass within the same formation the defense moves too. They can make it so the DB has to see the ball to make a play on it but that doesn't change the fact that the DB can change directions instantly as soon as he does see the ball.

The most fundamental elements of football like leverage & reads are completely absent at this point & the result is a skyscraper built on a foundation made of mashmallows. The engine ends up accounting for this lack of fundamentals in whatever way is easiest & the result is frustrating BS plays.

The changes that need to be made to give this game a new feel and allow the game to make dramatic steps forward in the next few years are very core to the way this game works. My worry is that these changes are too big to undertake and the more lucrative alternative is to keep moving forward with the "illusion of football".


IMO NCAA13 is better and worse at the same time. It's better in the things they added (trajectories, catch animations, etc.) but it's worse in things they didn't address. OL/DL is as bad as ever been, DB play is at times worse than 12, the fact that the option defenders still stand still, continued issues with ODs and transfer failed style errors, the fact that there are countless issues with the game that have been there since last gen, the fact that there are still several small features that Madden has that NCAA never did... those things just echo that, yeah they added to the game but they didn't do a good job of revisiting old issues. That's my main problem... there are still too many old issues that even when they add new toys, the entertainment only lasts until you inevitably hit one of those issues.

I completely agree Kwizzy and gschwendt. The areas that need the most work are the ones that have been neglected for years and years despite consistent community feedback. It is very frustrating to think where this series would be if it cleaned up and removed all the old issues when they first popped up instead of now (maybe) at the end of these more powerful consoles. Its a real shame that I have practically no faith for NCAA 14 and it's ability to represent what we see every Saturday. If OL/DL interactions, WR/DB interactions, player movement, and CPU AI are neglected again along with special teams then NCAA 14 will be the most hated game in the series. And EA Tiburon has nobody to blame but themselves since it has turned a blind eye to these glaring legacy issues. If NCAA 13 was a test and each area was a question then it would be full of red marks for failing to deliver authentic gameplay, movement, sounds, animations, and feel. NCAA 13 gets a failing grade if we judge it as a simulation of college football.

[Jayrah]

I just don't understand why anyone expects these changes to occur this generation -- EA has clearly reached the limit of what the current engine(s) can do. That was apparent three years ago. The change should come on the next-gen consoles.

That said ... I'd say NCAA 13 is the best football game I've ever played, going back 20 years.

I don't agree at all. Madden is in the same generation and it's gone far and above in gameplay this season. There are things that need fixing but the new engine (which WILL be in NCAA next season by the way) makes a huge HUGE difference. This engine will change the game next year imo. I hope I'm right.

[baseballplyrmvp]

i think if the hardcore community were allowed to shape and steer the game more and earlier in the process, we'd see a larger change from year to year. in my eyes, ea cares way too much about their own agenda for the game. they dont realize how valuable the info our hardcore community sites present, actually is.

year after year, they continually tout meaningless crap that very few actually cares about. sure, hdr lighting makes the game look great, but does the casual fan really care about the fact that "shadows on a player's jersey are now going to be accurate based on what time it is in the day?" for the past 2 years, they've praised this as an important feature that greatly improves the visuals (which it does, dont get me wrong).....but when talking community wishlist items regarding visuals, what items always come up? hairstyles, sock lengths, uniforms, mascots, and other team accessories. very few people out there give a crap about the clouds moving across the sky. it all comes back to the agenda thing. in order to get a better product, they need to use our feedback more.

[bdoughty]

i think if the hardcore community were allowed to shape and steer the game more and earlier in the process, we'd see a larger change from year to year. in my eyes, ea cares way too much about their own agenda for the game. they dont realize how valuable the info our hardcore community sites present, actually is.

year after year, they continually tout meaningless crap that very few actually cares about. sure, hdr lighting makes the game look great, but does the casual fan really care about the fact that "shadows on a player's jersey are now going to be accurate based on what time it is in the day?" for the past 2 years, they've praised this as an important feature that greatly improves the visuals (which it does, dont get me wrong).....but when talking community wishlist items regarding visuals, what items always come up? hairstyles, sock lengths, uniforms, mascots, and other team accessories. very few people out there give a crap about the clouds moving across the sky. it all comes back to the agenda thing. in order to get a better product, they need to use our feedback more.


NBA 2k13 just game me a terrific idea for the game changers to pass on to the boys a Tiburon.

Move over shoe creator, welcome in the Dread Creator.

Each NCAA team has their own virtual barber where you can pick out a set of dreads, see how they look and if you desire to you can automatically post it on a Facebook page. That is back of the box good and I am just passing this stuff out for free. Just imagine the kind of stuff I could blow all your minds with if there was money involved.

[SmoothPancakes]

So help me god if they actually waste their time with stupid retarded shit like "dread creator" or virtual barbers. What the fuck would even be the point? The players are wearing goddamn helmets!

Now bdoughty, I'm assuming you're probably joking about that, but I'm sure some dumbass on the EA forums or wherever else is thinking that same line of thinking and will be bitching about it not being the game.

[Rudy]

Well I have to disagree with the showing of 4 different screen shots to compare the titles. I get what they were trying to say but nobody has really complained too much about the visuals of NCAA. Yes they add progressive lighting and shadows and all that stuff to make it look better but gameplay is where you would be able to tell the difference. The Visuals to me in NCAA have always been good and really don't need to change.


Yeah, I think that was a very unfair way to label the games as being too similar. The Show is a great game but it has largely been the same and has made less changes to features than EA's football games over the same period of time. But it doesn't have to change much since it's so good. Kind of a catch-22. You could probably take screenshots from any sports game or a series like COD and get the same reaction.



The problem IMO though is that the things that are TRULY holding this game back are core/foundational principles of physics and football.

I truly believe going away from a scripted ratings based system to a true physics engine will be huge for EA's football games. And for the record I disagree with Owen Good when he refers to the Infinity Engine as "Real Time Physics". IE was nothing more than a tackling engine. It was nice but foot planting and player momentum along with proper acceleration are still completely missing. It's a LONG way from being anything close to real physics.

The other thing both games need to fix is cpu AI. The cpu doesn't use it's personel right and that will never show up in a screenshot. Play calling and time management are poor. It would be nice if NCAA added player tendencies - even if just to the QB so they can prevent non running QBs from running the option play just because it's in the playbook.

[baseballplyrmvp]

NBA 2k13 just game me a terrific idea for the game changers to pass on to the boys a Tiburon.

Move over shoe creator, welcome in the Dread Creator.

Each NCAA team has their own virtual barber where you can pick out a set of dreads, see how they look and if you desire to you can automatically post it on a Facebook page. That is back of the box good and I am just passing this stuff out for free. Just imagine the kind of stuff I could blow all your minds with if there was money involved.

the mentioning of the visuals was merely an example, but based on how you describe this dread creator, it sounds stupider than shit. :D

my point was more of the fact that we frequently ask for a certain set of criteria to be in the game, yet get other stuff that no one on the planet has asked for. even though they absolutely nailed the passing game overhaul this year, it worked just fine before, and no one asked for it to be changed.

[JeffHCross]

The problem is I very highly doubt that they start over again on the next gen of consoles so the same core issues will be there.Unless the next generation of consoles shares a significant amount of hardware and interfaces with the current generation, they're going to have to "start over" to an extent. That's why series get reset between generations ... it's the hardware that requires it, not a willing choice of the development teams.

However, some code can be transferred. It's debatable if some of the things you mentioned will "need" to be touched. For better or worse.


Yeah, I think that was a very unfair way to label the games as being too similar.Personally, I also think it sends the wrong message. That presentation suggests that significantly different visuals is the only way to distinguish iterations of a series. That's the last thing I care about, personally.

It also flies in the face of basic, foundational game development theory. One of the rules, for lack of a better word, of game design is that you should be able to play your game with blocks for characters (think Pong, Atari Football (http://thesportshernia.typepad.com/blog/images/2007/08/28/atari_football_2.jpg), things like that), and the game should still be enjoyable. The message is that the graphics are not what should make a game fun or entertaining. They're to complement the experience, not create it.

So, I believe, that a logical extension of that is that graphics are not what make two titles different, but gameplay and features.

[Rudy]

(think Pong, Atari Football (http://thesportshernia.typepad.com/blog/images/2007/08/28/atari_football_2.jpg), things like that), and the game should still be enjoyable.

Why bring up Atari Football? You should have said Tecmo Bowl! I truly believe Tecmo Bowl was the greatest football game ever created for its time. Now I may have liked that a lot more because I was much younger and enjoyed a simple game. But I wonder how much more young kids would enjoy NCAA Football or Madden if they had an Arcade option. No more picking from a complicated play book - just have them pick from four or five defenses by formation (which is suggested to them). Defend run up the middle, run outside, zone, man, blitz. Make all the moves arcade like - big hits, big jukes, big catches and interceptions. There used to be a market for casual fans that liked NFL Street. Why not create another mode within your own game to provide a similar experience? I know a cousin of mine doesn't like football but he loved the last NFL Street game that came out. I've actually played a little Madden with my kids co-op style but there is no way they can play each other since it's way too complicated for them.

One of the highlights of those types of games, especially Tecmo, was how the great players really stood out. They would be impossible to miss. As it stands now in Madden or NCAA, you don't have to gameplan around the great players. Just do what you do every game and it's good enough. I do miss how the impact players in NCAA 06 forced you to account for them at all times.

And I would love it if NCAA made a Tecmo camera angle. High in the air, side scrolling and classic! Most wouldn't like it because it's zoomed out but I would love to have it as an option. As long as you can see 20 yards downfield it would be fun. Now that would give the game a different feeling. This would NOT be like Madden's broadcast cam the last couple years because that is much harder to play with (not over the top and not enough vision downfield).

[JeffHCross]

Why bring up Atari Football?The idea proposed by the text I read was that you should be able to replace your graphics with, essentially, block-like placeholders (so, for 3D graphics, literally a cube with no discernible features), and the game should still be enjoyable. While Tecmo Bowl is vastly a superior game to Atari Football, Atari Football has vastly inferior graphics. Note my other example was Pong, after all :)

[Rudy]

We are showing our age Jeff! I remember actually playing Pong. I also remember the old Atari 2600 games like Pitfall and stuff like that. I wonder if today's kids even realize we only had ONE button on those old controllers.

[Rudy]

I was looking at some of the sliders that NBA 2K13 has. In addition to sliders they also have Attribute sliders. While some of these are more like gameplay sliders, others certainly are not. I will list them below. Have you game changers ever talked to the developers about giving us more options outside of sliders? Currently we do have speed threshold but what about options for agility, acceleration, etc? Would EA be open to something like that? For some reason EA refuses to use their tuning files in their football games so give me that power to fix what I want. Or provide different in game settings of Normal vs Heavy or Light player momentum. Those would add a huge difference in feel to the game and avoid the stale feeling.

NBA 2K13
Attributes
Quickness
Vertical
Strength
Stamina
Speed
Durability
Hustle
Ball Handling
Hands
Dunking Ability
On-Ball Defense
Stealing
Blocking
Offensive Awareness
Defensive Awareness
Offensive Rebounding
Defensive Rebounding
Consistency
Fatigue Rate
Injury Frequency
Injury Severity

[bdoughty]

Now bdoughty, I'm assuming you're probably joking about that, but I'm sure some dumbass on the EA forums or wherever else is thinking that same line of thinking and will be bitching about it not being the game.

Assuming I was joking. :D Of course I was.

[gigemaggs99]

I think it's impossible to make more than 51% of the people happy. IF EA made major changes to the game you would have the other 49% going nuts that they've removed some feature here or there or they've change it here or there and there would still be complaining. In the end, it's a football video game. They've been in the busy for a while now, they can package it however they want but from year to year it's not going to change that dramatically. It's funny, let's just say, if you refined the game to fix everything everyone wanted, then the next year's version would be complained about that it hasn't changed....it's not possible to make the perfect game.

[WolverineJay]

I think it's impossible to make more than 51% of the people happy. IF EA made major changes to the game you would have the other 49% going nuts that they've removed some feature here or there or they've change it here or there and there would still be complaining. In the end, it's a football video game. They've been in the busy for a while now, they can package it however they want but from year to year it's not going to change that dramatically. It's funny, let's just say, if you refined the game to fix everything everyone wanted, then the next year's version would be complained about that it hasn't changed....it's not possible to make the perfect game.

Ok. I understand that it's impossible to please everyone when it comes to any form of entertainment (video games included), but I don't think that is an invitation to not try or work to improve a game.

I know that no game will be perfect, but EA Tiburon has chose over this entire generation of football games to ignore legacy issues and the new issues that pop up each new iteration. I get that it may be hard to fix something immediately say within 1 or 2 years of it appearing but to blatantly ignore so many issues in their football games for so many years is what I get upset about. The laundry list of legacy issues that plague both Madden and NCAA football is not a small one it is ever growing due to the failed effort to fix practically any of them over the years (pass tracjectories finally improved on this gen after 6 years of complaining). It is ridiculous how so many issues remain with EA's football games and yet each year 99% of them are ignored so which was once a small amount of work has become a MOUNTAIN of problems and that 100% falls on EA Tiburon. When will it change? Next year? Next decade? Ever?

I get that no game can be perfect, but choosing not to perfect your game is inexcusable in my book. That is why so many people say we are playing NCAA Football 2001.12, its that huge laundry list of legacy issues that go untouched leaving the games to look, feel, sound, and play darn near the same each new edition. STOP focusing on gimmicks, on casual features, on blatantly ridiculous ideas like bullet time in a football game and get back to the basics of what makes football a great game to play, coach, and watch. Get rid of your legacy issues EA Tiburon and then people will stop saying the new version is more of the same.

Laundry list in no particular order:
Player movement and foot planting
Height and Weight (player size) that makes a difference in gameplay
All ratings should matter not just speed (plus make ratings universal in both games: QB ratings differ in NCAA and Madden)
Sliders not working (AI and Penalty)
Penalties not working (why bother even putting them in the game if they never get called even when maxed out)
Robo QB (accuracy ratings should matter way more and that makes every QB play the same)
OL/DL Interactions (my goodness this should have been fixed 6 years ago)
WR/DB interactions (why is the DB so aggressive and the WR so passive? Why does is seem the WR is oblivious to DB as if the WR thinks its offense only practice mode)
Unrealistic animations (so many dumb animations in both games its sad that bthey think they are realistic to the game of football, where are the effort animations or the branching animations to make gameplay smooth?)
User control issues (sure seems at times like I'm playing 1 vs 11 on Def thanks to brain dead defenders standing around or running away from ball carriers just waiting for me to click onto them and then finally make a play)
Huge lack of variety in player styles (QB's all throw the same with same release times for instance, and all RB's carry the ball the same just to name a couple)
Stadium sounds (Yeah it went from mediocre to crap to above avg that last 3 years, but it still doesn't deliver a true college football stadium experience. Crowd noise is still so weak especially on crucial 3rd and 4th downs and in red zones)
Commentary (my goodness is this stale and so so repetitive rather than variety we get same old song and dance each week)
Sidelines (small gripe since it doesn't impact much except bringing the immersion up a few notches but APF2k8 has way better sidelines and that is 5 years old)
Pre-game, half-time, and post-game wrap-up shows with stats and highlights don't exist sad we're still waiting after all these years (again the presentation side of video games helps wiht the immersion and replay value)
Stat overlays (some years there is a few and other years crickets, just give us consistent updates on how the players are doing, announcers giving comparisons and highlighting achievements more would be nice)
Simulation Stats (some years are better than others but never has it been realistic or even close to be honest)
Weather (enough already we get it it rains a lot in Florida where you make the game, but if weather can be optional in play now it should be in Dynasty and Franchise as well)
Special teams play (FG kicking logic on heisman always trying 55 yd fg's with bums, formations lacking, ball trajectory unrealistic, return blocking unrealistic, return man running into people rather than using his vision, protection blocking unrealistic results in no blocks, no seperate user/cpu sp. tms sliders in Madden)
Gameplan adjustment issues with CPU switching to aggressive zones in NCAA (makes safety play atrocious)
Option game issues in NCAA(pitching ball to rb and he runs backwards to catch it for 10 yd loss and defenders backpedaling or shuffling in space or just standing there as ball carrier runs (feels like I'm cheating the game because of these programmed responses)
Etc................ lol I'm tired of writing them

Peace. :bang:

[blkkrptnt819]

As much as on the field is struggling, the strategy aspect of the game is very much lacking. No create a formation/play, no option for weakside/strongside, field/boundary, stand up end, all defensive strategies are the same. There is no risk to having undersized fast lineman. It doesn't make sense to get bigger receivers because they don't outjump smaller db's. I would love to be able to say I out thought a person and won and not say I just stopped their gimmicks long enough to beat them. Maybe it's just me.

[JeffHCross]

Ok. I understand that it's impossible to please everyone when it comes to any form of entertainment (video games included), but I don't think that is an invitation to not try or work to improve a game.While I understand you have plenty of frustrations with the game, I think that's a far cry from implying (or saying) that they're not even working on the game at all. There are several items on your list that I personally feel are MUCH better in NCAA 13 than they were in NCAA 12 or 11.

There are issues, yes, certainly. And, unfortunately, most (if not all) of those are not at all quick fixes.

[WolverineJay]

Jeff, yeah my frustrations are justified I feel. Just look at the countless issues that keep this game stagnant and it just doesn't plague gameplay(my no.1 priority). We have differing opinions on some issues that is obvious, but like I said I know some of these problems are not a 1 cycle fix but to blatantly ignore the huge issues in both games produced by EA Tiburon for this entire generation. C'mon that is inexcusable.

I never said that they didn't work on their games. I stand by my statement that they refused to improve their games simply by the sure amount of legacy issues that get ignored year after year after year. I don't think adding bullet time to NCAA 13 improved it, did you? And we all know that isn't the only thing EA Tiburon decided to add to NCAA 13 instead of fixing legacy issues. When are we going to expect these issues to get fixed and get fixed correctly for that matter? Like I said I have practically no faith that NCAA 14 will fix even a 1/3 of it's legacy issues.

I have never been to EA Tiburon like you have Jeff so I have to take your word for it how hard these guys work and how talented they are. I do believe that they love football and want the best game possible, but they truly lack the vision to pull that off in my mind. The communities for both NCAA and Madden are willing to help not just talking about the CD guys and gamechangers which are few. Over the years I have read hundreds of high quality ideas that would help both football games immeasurabley, but they get ignored. I know there is no way that everything can be implemented that the community wants but to ignore your devoted communities so much over this generation is what landed EA Tiburon in the position they are in. I think fixing your game's issues HAS to be a top priority from now on EA Tiburon before adding garbage like bullet time.

[JeffHCross]

I don't disagree with anything you said, Jay. I too question the amount of issues that have been ignored. But there have been improvements, even to gameplay. I don't disagree with you that it may not balance out the number of things that haven't been improved. And, personally, I have my own frustrations beyond what you outlined.

I will also admit that I did slightly misread what you originally said, though I got the overall gist right. There have been improvements. Whether or not they're in areas that you (or I, or Joe Average) care about is a different conversation.

The one thing I will say, and I don't recall if I've said this before to you or not, but getting permission from the powers-that-be to do nothing but fix legacy issues, in a major software release, is a tall order. In any company. Especially, imo, a company like EA. They'd have to have significant marketing research that says a bug fix NCAA 14 would sell more than a feature laden NCAA 14. And that would be very, very difficult to argue (IMO). It might sell more among TGT ... but the audience at large? Not so sure.

[WolverineJay]

I hear you Jeff and I understand that EA is a business and is only concerned with will NCAA 14 and Madden 14 sell and make us a nice profit. I really don't like being so negative when it comes to the games that I once loved and would play year round (NCAA and Madden on PS2), but years of frustration this generation has made me just that unfortunately. The only way that negativity fades I feel is if I see a good amount of legacy issues corrected in NCAA 14 and Madden 14(for gameplay:OL/DL, player movement, Hgt/Wgt matters, better realistic animations, and sp. tms) along side whatever it is EA Tiburon feels they need to add to make the next game sell to the public. I just don't feel like NCAA or Madden this entire gen wanted the sports game of the year title which in my opinion has led to the staleness of EA's football games. All we can do Jeff is hope that the process of ignoring the major issues soon stops because then we may just get that game of the year shortly afterwards.

[JeffHCross]

Agreed on most points. :D