Shotgun HB Counter?

[gigemaggs99]

Please excuse me if this has been talked about in depth, but I'm trying to use Notre Dame's PB and no matter what SG formation I pick, then when I pick a COUNTER play they do not work. As soon as the QB hands the ball off to the HB he is down in the backfield. No defenders are near him, the whistle just blows the play is over for a -4 yard loss.

This happens in game and on the practice field.

Anyone else? Am I just freaking out here? :blush:

[JeffHCross]

I haven't personally seen it, but I've heard reports of some SG plays being instantly whistled dead, as you describe.

[gigemaggs99]

I'm trying Cincinnati's PB now to see if they have the same issue....

[gigemaggs99]

YES, every single Counter play in SG formations are whistled dead as soon as the HB touches the ball. This is happening for me in the Notre Dame PB and Cincinnati PB. CAN THIS BE FOR REAL?

[gschwendt]

It's not every single formation but rather I think it's somehow related to whether the defense creates an instant rush. I've seen the Shotgun Split HB Counter work fine whereas in other cases I've seen it blown dead like you describe. We've certainly made EA aware of it but for now it's frustrating and should be avoided in most cases.

[gigemaggs99]

This is really nuts! I'm going to re-start my PS3....I just tried Arkansas St. PB since it's a "Spread PB" and every single SG formation Counter play is whistled dead.....is anyone else having this issue?

[gigemaggs99]

It's not every single formation but rather I think it's somehow related to whether the defense creates an instant rush. I've seen the Shotgun Split HB Counter work fine whereas in other cases I've seen it blown dead like you describe. We've certainly made EA aware of it but for now it's frustrating and should be avoided in most cases.

In looking at the Ark St PB I only see a SG Split Slot and it has no Counter play in it. When I pick any other SG formation and the Counters they all are whistled dead. I'm picking the defense and choosing Nickel 3-3-5 Cover 6 and it still whistles the play dead. No pressure from the Defense.

EDIT: the wild thing is, just in the Ark St PB for example the Counter is used 13 times and only 2 of them are under center formations so you can't use those other 11 plays. This is wild!

The main reason I found out, I took over UMASS in the OD with my buddy and I figured I'd use either the Notre Dame PB or the Cinnci since Charley Molnar is taking over at UMASS and installing that style of offense. I figure ND or Cinnci would be the closest.

I will say the ACE: F PAIR TWINS PA Boot Screen is a nice play though, with time to get the pass off the HB is off to the races.

[baseballplyrmvp]

It's not every single formation but rather I think it's somehow related to whether the defense creates an instant rush. I've seen the Shotgun Split HB Counter work fine whereas in other cases I've seen it blown dead like you describe. We've certainly made EA aware of it but for now it's frustrating and should be avoided in most cases.

i can confirm this. i ran a shotgun counter against cdj this afternoon, and even though it resulted in a 3 yard loss, it wasnt blown dead. cant remember what formation it was though, sorry

[souljahbill]

I read on OS that they believe it has something to do with the height of the HB that determines if it'll be blown dead or not.

[gschwendt]

I read on OS that they believe it has something to do with the height of the HB that determines if it'll be blown dead or not.
Wow... hadn't read that but I might have to test it sometime this week to figure out for sure.

[steelerfan]

I've had them blown dead every time while other users, like snoop, have never had one blown dead. We both tested it with Ole Miss so it was the same HB, same play, same everything. Frustrating.

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[JeffHCross]

I read on OS that they believe it has something to do with the height of the HB that determines if it'll be blown dead or not.If so ... LMAO, though steelerfan's post pretty much denies it :D

[souljahbill]

Who really knows? It's just odd that it happens because it's actually a pretty effective play. It's a shame it has to be avoided because no one knows what triggers the loss of down.

[souljahbill]

Here's a link

http://www.operationsports.com/forums/ncaa-football/562386-i-think-i-figured-out-shotgun-counter-run-glitch-quick-fix.html

[SmoothPancakes]

I've had them blown dead every time while other users, like snoop, have never had one blown dead. We both tested it with Ole Miss so it was the same HB, same play, same everything. Frustrating.

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Yep. I tested it also and it was blown dead every time for me. Same team, same play, same player. Blown dead for me and steeler, not blown dead for snoop. Your guess is as good as mine.

[gigemaggs99]

Yep. I tested it also and it was blown dead every time for me. Same team, same play, same player. Blown dead for me and steeler, not blown dead for snoop. Your guess is as good as mine.


Maybe you were holding your controller at a different angle?

[psusnoop]

In all of my games I've played thus far I've not had one blown dead. I'm not sure what the deal is and I run it at least a couple of times with Oregon, Middle Tennessee State and Ole Miss when I play my games.

Team specific Playbooks as well, for the record.

[gigemaggs99]

Here's the problem I'm having with this, I'm trying to scheme and play this game more like a chess match. My buddy and I play almost 1 per night after our kids go to bed, it's like our 1 game per day, darby match.

Well I'm trying to learn the Spread attack. Here's the problem besides this counter play not working...it really gives the offense away. If you look at 99% of the other run plays out of SG where the QB hands it to the HB (excluding jet sweeps to the WRs) the HB will be lined up on either the strong side or weak side. If you removed the Counters, the HB has to cross in front of the QB to receive the hand-off. Since the COUNTER is not working it's very easy to guess press-snap which direction the run will be headed.

I'm not suggesting anyone use the RUN LEFT or RUN Right silly feature but if it comes down to it and it's 3rd and short I can see my buddy using it to stop the 3rd down conversion, since he will be able to guess which way the HB is going. Removing the Counter entirely from your SG running attack is really crippling an intangible part of the attack.

Is there any way someone here who has access to EA can let us know if this is something that will be addressed in a possible patch? I know there have been things like, "we've let them know about this...." but do they ever respond to those notices or emails with we will look into it? Do they just get your suggestions and return zero response?

Thanks and I hope this is something that is relatively simple to fix. I'm at a loss as to why it worked last year and now it doesn't. Why does it work in under-center formations, but not in SG formations? I'm sure it comes down to comma's or periods or something in a HUGE string of code. I just hope it can be fixed, and not at the cost of making something else NOT work. :bang:

[gigemaggs99]

In all of my games I've played thus far I've not had one blown dead. I'm not sure what the deal is and I run it at least a couple of times with Oregon, Middle Tennessee State and Ole Miss when I play my games.

Team specific Playbooks as well, for the record.

That's truely amazing. I'm using UMASS the default squad with the roster names from TGT (PS3 version). I don't have to do anything but press the X to hike the ball and as soon as I press X the whistle blows and he's down. It happens 100% of the time, I can't get it to work some of the time, it's 100%. Now I will say from UNDERCENTER formations the counter play DOES work just fine. It's only SG formations that I see this. The problem to me is, I'm trying to run a Spread attack, ala Notre Dame, or Cinci style and removing 11 of those counter plays from the various SG formations is a big part of it. If 5 of those 11 would work then I'd just stay clear of those that do not work, but the problem is I can't have any SG counter plays in my spread attack and that really gives away my attack to my opponent.

It would be like if every time I called PA my QB threw the ball 30 yards out of bounds. I'd basically have to remove the "threat" of the PA out of my offensive attack, that would really take me back in time to something like first and 10 for NES.

[gigemaggs99]

Ok, more research is always better right?


So here's the strange thing, I picked SMU's Run N Shoot PB and their Shotgun Counter plays work just fine. I'm going to keep testing this out but it seems like if I pick an offense that's labeled "SPREAD" then the SG Counter plays do not work....

still testing......


EDIT, ok still testing but I just tried A&M's AIR RAID pb and the Shotgun Counter plays DO work. I will keep trying this out but it seems to me, any Playbook labeled "spread" is the key.

This is good news, atleast I can have the option of having the Counter play in my offensive attack. I just don't pick a "spread style" offensive PB. I'm glad it works in the other styles. After spending this much time on the practice field I'm going to COUNTER my buddy to death LOL

[gschwendt]

If you would, post what formations work and what ones don't. I don't think the playbook itself matters but always good to post as much detail like that as well.

[gigemaggs99]

Sometimes I wish I could get paid to do this...I used to do this kinda QB testing at a computer software place I used to work at for Ford Motor Company software....anyways!

I found another trick. If I put the GAME SPEED on NORMAL then the Shotgun Counter plays DO WORK from Shotgun formations in ALL playbook styles.

I was using some sliders that had the game speed to SLOW and if I leave the game speed on SLOW the Shotgun Counter plays from Spread Style Playbooks DO NOT WORK. They do work from in other styles (Air Raid, Pro, RnS, etc...).

So, it has something to do w/ the Game Speed (again, NORMAL everything works fine) and it seems to effect the Spread Style playbooks when the game speed is set to SLOW.

I hope someone can pass this along to EA and it can be used for a good cause. Anything to make the game better right? :nod:


JOB #1, fix my online dynasty and default sliders to have the game speed set to NORMAL. :cool: and oh yes, we'd like to WELCOME the SPREAD offense to UMASS! :))

[souljahbill]

Well ain't that a pickle?

[gigemaggs99]

I figure whoever at EA has access to the big long paragraph of code for the SPREAD style offenses needs to add/remove a comma here or a space there so they match the same SG formation Counter coding they have entered for RNS, Pro, AIR RAID when game speed = slow.

Good luck men! Keep fighting the good fight!

[steelerfan]

Thanks, Gus. I have my speed set to slow. I'll change it to normal next time I play and see if these plays now work. :up:

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[JeffHCross]

Wait ... if your play style is Spread they don't work, but they work for other play styles? Same formation? What about custom books, where there should be no difference between the formations?

That makes no freakin' sense.

Side note: Pretty cool that you used to do testing for Ford. One of my managers was ex-Ford.

[gigemaggs99]

Wait ... if your play style is Spread they don't work, but they work for other play styles? Same formation? What about custom books, where there should be no difference between the formations?

That makes no freakin' sense.

Side note: Pretty cool that you used to do testing for Ford. One of my managers was ex-Ford.


Steelerfan, glad I can help, everyone else always gives me help and tips here so I'm just glad for once I can give back.

As far as Ford goes, yes I used to provide technical support and QA test the "CPD" (computerized publication display) it's the "Chilton Manual" on a DVD for all their models of cars. Besides troubleshooting it over the phone with Parts and Service Managers from around the US we also had to QA it and try and break it and find issues with the monthly updates.

I haven't tried making a Custom Spread Style Playbook. I assume each "style" activates something though. That's why you still have to choose a base playbook, then it activates Kirk talking about your game at the beginning when the other guys says, "Kirk, tell us about the offense and what we should expect...." This triggers something in the programming to talk Spread, Air Raid, etc...

If I had to guess, if you put your game speed on SLOW and make a custom PB with a Spread style as the base I doubt they would work, just my guessing.

As far as the formations not being different, I think it doesn't have to do w/ the formations at all, it again has to do w/ the code for "spread" each style should have it's own code to trigger different events.

[JeffHCross]

it again has to do w/ the code for "spread" each style should have it's own code to trigger different events.Well, as far as I was aware until this conversation occurred, I knew of no connection between the "style" of the playbook and the result of the plays contained therein. You mentioned "coding they have entered for RNS, Pro, AIR RAID when game speed = slow". I would personally be very, very surprised if they had coding for that granular level, unless it was put in to fix an unrelated bug. It's certainly possible though.

[JeffHCross]

I'm sure others had confirmed it, but I just did anyway. Sure enough ... Spread = whistled dead. I also confirmed that Custom Playbooks act just like their base style ... a Spread custom book fails, while an Air Raid custom book works. I also confirmed that there is only one "HB Counter" in the Custom Playbook selection, at least for the formation I was comparing (Shotgun Spread - HB Counter).

:smh:

[psuexv]

You guys that have tested it, does the play get whistled dead right from the start no matter what?

I've seen the play work and not work. From the few times that I've seen it not work, it's usually if a rusher breaks free and is unevaded to the RB.

[SmoothPancakes]

You guys that have tested it, does the play get whistled dead right from the start no matter what?

I've seen the play work and not work. From the few times that I've seen it not work, it's usually if a rusher breaks free and is unevaded to the RB.

For me, when I tested it, the very SECOND the QB handed the ball off to the HB, it was instantaneously whistled dead in the backfield for a 2-3 yard loss.

[gigemaggs99]

You guys that have tested it, does the play get whistled dead right from the start no matter what?

I've seen the play work and not work. From the few times that I've seen it not work, it's usually if a rusher breaks free and is unevaded to the RB.

Same as SmoothPancakes for me, if my game speed was set to SLOW it was as soon as I hiked the ball. If I put the game speed on Normal the play works just fine, from every formation.

If I had all that fancy video recording stuff some of you guys have I'd post videos of it. I just don't have that fancy gear.

[JeffHCross]

You guys that have tested it, does the play get whistled dead right from the start no matter what? +1. The second. No matter what I called.

[steelerfan]

I just changed my Game Speed to Normal, and now the HB Counters seem to work.

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[SmoothPancakes]

So basically then, just completely strip all HB Counters out of my custom playbook until EA fixes this issue.

[steelerfan]

So basically then, just completely strip all HB Counters out of my custom playbook until EA fixes this issue.

I dunno. I think Normal Game Speed fixes it. I've been running them all day with ND and haven't had a problem since going to Normal.

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[SmoothPancakes]

I dunno. I think Normal Game Speed fixes it. I've been running them all day with ND and haven't had a problem since going to Normal.

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Well yeah, it sounds fine on normal, but I prefer slow game speed, so essentially it's still broken and unusable for me.

[steelerfan]

Well yeah, it sounds fine on normal, but I prefer slow game speed, so essentially it's still broken and unusable for me.

I prefer Slow, too. I'm making the change to Normal so I don't have the CPU calling it against me. If it gets fixed, I'll go back.

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[gigemaggs99]

So basically then, just completely strip all HB Counters out of my custom playbook until EA fixes this issue.

I prefer "slow" gameplay speed as well, but I prefer the Counter actually working more...hopefully they can get it worked out. Back in the day we didn't have a game speed change option so I kinda figure if it works on Normal that's good enough for me.

[JeffHCross]

I was just about to come on here and declare this "FIXED", because I was using a Spread PB and having no issues with running counters.

Then I jumped in Practice Mode a second time to confirm, and had nothing but.

EDIT: And, apparently, I'm back on a horse that we thought we'd already :deadhorse:

So I just played a Play Now game with Mississippi State (using team-specific Spread playbook), and ran as many counters as I could, including different formations and some formations that I had seen blown dead just minutes before in practice mode. Not a single one was blown dead.

So, experiment time. I'll run the HB Counter plays from four formations Practice Mode, each out of Mississippi State's playbook:

Y-Trips
Y-Trips HB Wk
Normal Flex Wing
4WR Trio Str

Each play will be run against a 4-3 2-Man Under, to reduce the possible variables. I'll be using Florida State for my test, as it was their team that inspired this test.

In the following table, each HB on FSU will run each HB Counter play three times. The data in the table represents the number of successful runs (in other words, not blown dead).



Number
Height
Y-Trips
Y-Trips HB Wk
Normal Flex Wing
4WR Trio Str

FSU #4
5'8
0/3
0/3
0/3
0/3

FSU #8
5'8
0/3
0/3
0/3
0/3

FSU #32
6'2
3/3
3/3
3/3
3/3

FSU #21
6'0
3/3
3/3
3/3
3/3

FSU #28
5'8
0/3
0/3
0/3
0/3

Edited #4
5'9
3/3
3/3
3/3
3/3

Edited #32
5'7
0/3
0/3
0/3
0/3



In short: 5'8 or shorter: BAD. 5'9 or taller: GOOD. (Note that when I edited a player that was being blown dead to 5'9, he suddenly worked, and a player that had been working did not at 5'7).

These results were repeatable across playbook styles, including Multiple and Air Raid.






LMAO, it wasn't until after I posted this that I went back to the previous page and was reminded of this conversation:

I read on OS that they believe it has something to do with the height of the HB that determines if it'll be blown dead or not.

Here's a link
http://www.operationsports.com/forums/ncaa-football/562386-i-think-i-figured-out-shotgun-counter-run-glitch-quick-fix.html


Yep. I tested it also and it was blown dead every time for me. Same team, same play, same player. Blown dead for me and steeler, not blown dead for snoop. Your guess is as good as mine.Simple. Snoop is the dirty little liar I've always believed him to be :D

[SmoothPancakes]

Simple. Snoop is the dirty little liar I've always believed him to be :D

:D

So basically, if I go in and edit my Tulsa roster to make all my backs 5'9 or taller before I start my dynasty, I should be good then using HB Counter, if I'm following correctly.

[JeffHCross]

Based on what I saw, yeah.

[SmoothPancakes]

Based on what I saw, yeah.

Sweet. I'll jump on NCAA and give that a try later today when I get home from work.

[souljahbill]

Booyah!

[JeffHCross]

Smooth, did you have a chance to confirm my results? I always like independent confirmation :D

[SmoothPancakes]

Smooth, did you have a chance to confirm my results? I always like independent confirmation :D

Sorry about that. I was tired as hell after work last Saturday, and on top of that, I've only turned on my 360, maybe 2 or 3 times total, in the past week. Even though I had been up since 2pm Friday afternoon, and even though I only just fell asleep at 11am this morning, I got woken up unexpectedly a little bit ago and now even though I've only managed 3 1/2 hours of sleep, I'm unfortunately wide awake. :fp: So I'll jump on here shortly and test it. I may as well get some Madden action in while I actually can, so I'll be on for sure in a bit.

[SmoothPancakes]

Alright, I believe I can confirm your results Jeff. I just went in with Tulsa. They have 3 HBs 5'11" and one 6'1". I took one of the 5'11" guys and edited him down to 5'8" I was able to run 5 straight HB Counters successfully with the starter (5'11"), 5 straight successfully with the third stringer (6'1") and 5 straight successfully with the fourth string guy (5'11"). When it came time to test with the backup (edited down to 5'8" for this test), 5 straight attempts all instantly blown dead at the hand-off.

After that, I went back and changed that guy's height to 5'9" and went back into practice mode, 5 straight successful runs with HB Counter by all four HBs with heights 5'9" or higher.

Tested it further with some Pro, Multiple and Air Raid teams, all the same results. Failed attempts with backs 5'8" or shorter, Successful attempts with back 5'9" or taller.

I'm not gonna pretend I know or have any clue why something like height would completely make a play unusable. I've only had a couple basic beginner coding classes when I was entertaining the thought of majoring in Criminal Forensics my freshman year of college. So, coding-wise, why it fails 100% of the time for 5'8" or shorter backs but is 100% successful for 5'9" or taller backs, I don't know, but it appears to be an extremely easy fix, albeit a bit tedious if you go to the levels of editing the backs of all your opponents or all the HBs in the game so the CPU teams don't get screwed by the issue.

[JeffHCross]

I'm not gonna pretend I know or have any clue why something like height would completely make a play unusable.The play gets blown dead after the HB makes his cut. I tried to see, via Replay, if their knee was touching the ground, but couldn't determine with certainty if that was the case. Even with "taller" backs, it comes damn close. So my guess is that, for some reason, shorter backs register their knee being on the ground. I'd imagine that's also why the Slow vs Normal speed made a difference ... at Normal speed, the animation may be fast enough to not register.

That's all theory though.

[SmoothPancakes]

The play gets blown dead after the HB makes his cut. I tried to see, via Replay, if their knee was touching the ground, but couldn't determine with certainty if that was the case. Even with "taller" backs, it comes damn close. So my guess is that, for some reason, shorter backs register their knee being on the ground. I'd imagine that's also why the Slow vs Normal speed made a difference ... at Normal speed, the animation may be fast enough to not register.

That's all theory though.

Hey, that theory works for me. :D If that's the case, talk about a game of inches. ;)

At least now we have a fix for the problem, so I no longer have to completely leave HB Counters out of my custom playbook and out of my gameplan. Tulsa was already good with the shortest backs being 5'11". Now just to edit the rest of Conference-USA and my non-con opponents so they don't get screwed by that play.

[CLW]

Well I tried this play today in my offline dynasty. I have a little scat back as my starter and sure enough as soon as he touched the ball ruled down. :smh:

[SmoothPancakes]

Well I tried this play today in my offline dynasty. I have a little scat back as my starter and sure enough as soon as he touched the ball ruled down. :smh:

What's his height? Edit his height to 5'9" at try again with him. That's what Jeff discovered and came up with, and after I extensively tested it, changing my backs to a height of 5'9" or taller, I never had that play whistled dead on me again.

[CLW]

What's his height? Edit his height to 5'9" at try again with him. That's what Jeff discovered and came up with, and after I extensively tested it, changing my backs to a height of 5'9" or taller, I never had that play whistled dead on me again.

Dunno and do I really need to go through my entire schedule to make sure no backs are < 5'9"? Sure enough the next game the CPU runs the same play and boom ruled down upon handoff on 3rd and short (like 2-3 yards).

While its all well and good you guys have found work arounds I think its quite silly we as a community are just expected to deal with it and/or make sure each season we edit the entire roster to make sure everyone is X height.

[SmoothPancakes]

Dunno and do I really need to go through my entire schedule to make sure no backs are < 5'9"? Sure enough the next game the CPU runs the same play and boom ruled down upon handoff on 3rd and short (like 2-3 yards).

While its all well and good you guys have found work arounds I think its quite silly we as a community are just expected to deal with it and/or make sure each season we edit the entire roster to make sure everyone is X height.

I completely agree. But at least we actually were able to find a work around for now. I was about to completely remove the play from my custom playbook. As for the other teams, if anything I'll just do it on a week by week basis, wait until an opponent comes up that week and then check their roster real quick. I'm certainly not going to change every back, just the first and second stringers. Unless the game becomes a blowout, I shouldn't have to worry about 3rd or 4th string backs getting in the game, at least not often and long enough to have this play come up.

[JeffHCross]

FWIW, I've played a decent amount of CPU teams, includes ones with scat backs, and I don't recall seeing this play called once, by anybody. It's only come up a handful of times in my 25+ RTG games too.