Article: GTTV: NCAA Football 13 Gameplay Reveal

[cdj]

http://www.thegamingtailgate.com/images/NCAA13/7043493519_36b90011f0_z.jpg

On last night's GTTV, the show provided the first gameplay information for NCAA Football 13. With a combination of game footage and narration from gameplay designer (and former Florida QB) Larry Richart, first word of improvements to the passing game were revealed.

- There was essentially one type of pass in past, now 25 different trajectories.
- This includes the ability to pass over linebackers and users can lead the pass with the left stick for added control
- There are 20+ new drop backs, based upon proper dropbacks depending on the routes in the play.
- QBs can throw on run without setting up, but throws are more difficult across their body.
- Icons dim at snap, lit up when receivers able to make the catch.
- No more psychic defensive backs.
- Both offensive and defensive players "have to see it before they can make a play on the ball."

EA SPORTS plans to release complete gameplay details and information on Tuesday, April 17. A link to the GTTV clip will be added here once it is available.

[beartide06]

I liked a lot of different things, but one thing that worries me is when he said WR's will be able to catch the ball when the icon is lit up. Does this mean that WR's cannot make catches at all unless the icon is lit up? To me, that could pose as a problem. QB's in real life throw into double coverage, or more, and WR's are able to make some amazing catches. Also, does this mean you can only throw the ball to that WR with the icon lit up? With blitzes this could be very difficult. There are a lot of questions I have. Lol.On a brighter note, no psychic DB's and there is ball trajectory!!!

[xMrHitStickx904]

I'm interested on how this affects user catching. hope it doesn't handicap those with good user skills.

[XxDaMole00xX]

Ball Trajectory will make a lot of fans happy and having more control on the passing will drop the interception rate we've seen in years past. Not having to set up before throwing on the run is a big upgrade for such a simple change. I especially hope this transitions into Madden. Beartide06- I think the icon lights up to let you know the WR is able to make the catch. You should still be able to throw it whenever to any WR.Finally, the "have to see it before they can make a play on the ball" was better known as "Procedural Awarness" back in Madden 09. Now im 100% confident its a new AI system where they make logical plays for the ball once they make eye contact.

[beartide06]

Yeah I figure that is the case, but my main concern is my first question. If the WR is only able to make a catch when his icon is lit up, does this mean he cannot make a catch at all, no matter what unless his icon is lit up? Or does this mean he cannot not even try to catch a pass? There are just so many variables to consider. I am looking forward to an in depth look at game play Tuesday to clarify some of these questions.

[Cipher 8]

Well they addressed my two biggest issues with the game, pre-ordering now. :D:))

[Cipher 8]

Now the only thing I hope for is the ability to hot route a defensive back if you will, by choosing inside or outside shade on a receiver before the snap and predicting or rather guessing which type of routes they'll run and having an advantage or disadvantage against it based on what you choose, if you choose it. Being able to not choose it by default but also being able to choose it when you know they tend to run slants on 3rd down, for example.

[illwill10]

I think Awareness will play a big role in passing game. I think it will affects the trajectories and the WR/DBs looking back.
It will be a frustrating/realistic situation if you throw to your open young WR and he didnt look for the ball.

[beartide06]

I think Awareness will play a big role in passing game. I think it will affects the trajectories and the WR/DBs looking back.
It will be a frustrating/realistic situation if you throw to your open young WR and he didnt look for the ball.

Just got off the phone with a friend who mentioned this. Maybe awareness depends on when the icon comes on. Maybe a freshman's icon will not turn on until he is basically wide open, but a senior's may come on pretty quickly, for example. Or maybe if you have an outstanding WR his icon will turn on in double or triple coverage because he is more likely to make a spectacular catch. Speaking of spectacular catch, maybe that also ties into when they can make certain catches.

[beartide06]

Now the only thing I hope for is the ability to hot route a defensive back if you will, by choosing inside or outside shade on a receiver before the snap and predicting or rather guessing which type of routes they'll run and having an advantage or disadvantage against it based on what you choose, if you choose it. Being able to not choose it by default but also being able to choose it when you know they tend to run slants on 3rd down, for example.

In a situation like this, I wish EA would implement WR choice routes on the fly. For example, a play is run where the WR is designed to run a slant route. Well, your corner plays the inside position to take that away. Well, when the WR starts to run his slant and sees the CB playing inside, it would be nice to see that WR adjust and run a slant-n-go to beat the CB. This would be a great addition for playbooks such as the Run and Shoot. Awareness could also play a factor in a WR making such an adjustment. Basically, WR's would be making post-snap hot routes. This would add such a nice flavor to the game.

[JerzeyReign]

Didn't get to see it but from the responses I'm reading on different forums, NCAA seems to have turned the corner a bit. I'm still subduing my passion due to the game playing alright last year before patches destroyed it. This looks good though.

[OneEighth]

The WR icons represent what WRs do in real life. A specific part of their route is dedicated to getting open and will not be looking for a pass until the reach a certain point of the route. These icons will light up representing the fact they will be looking for the pass.

[WolverineJay]

I like the video it shows that EA Tiburon is at least listening to our complaints of NCAA (Psychic Db's, Superman Lb's, Low Pass Trajectory, Awareness under-utilized, Juke moves worthless in 12'). All of those have been touched on in the video. This has me more interested in Tuesday.

Now what about OL/DL interaction, special teams, and penalties to name a few more big legacy issues.

[beartide06]

The WR icons represent what WRs do in real life. A specific part of their route is dedicated to getting open and will not be looking for a pass until the reach a certain point of the route. These icons will light up representing the fact they will be looking for the pass.

Ahhhh I think I understand. So the icon lights up when the WR is able to actually SEE the ball. This was also another option I discussed with someone. If the icon lights up, he can see the ball and therefore make a play on it. When it is not lit up he is not ready for the pass and it will most likely end up incomplete, dropped, or picked off. Now, how well this works is what I want to see in action. I wonder if you will be able to throw it before the WR is ready, but by the time the ball gets there he is turning around ready for the ball. Kind of how a back shoulder fade would works.

[I OU a Beatn]

The only thing that I really noticed was on the only regular view shot on the deep ball where the DB took an uber lame angle and basically let the WR catch the ball. I hope that's just because they were playing on Freshman difficulty. Kind of hard to guage how the pass rush is from the video, but that's my number one area since they've finally apparently taken care of trajectory and being able to control the lead of the WR.

[JeffHCross]

All I cared about was seeing Larry Legend. :D Seriously though, the list of improvements is sounding good.

[JeffHCross]

On my PS3, so I can't test, but this may be a direct link to the episode or segment. http://www.gametrailers.com/episode/gametrailers-tv/151?ch=3

[JerzeyReign]

http://youtu.be/ou39sBdw1xc

[cdj]

Direct video embed from GameTrailers is now in the News Story. (http://www.thegamingtailgate.com/forums/content.php?556-GTTV-NCAA-Football-13-Gameplay-Reveal)

[psuexv]

I will really be interested to see how this actually works. defensive players "have to see it before they can make a play on the ball hopefully it's not just for the DB that is on your WR, but also eliminates the other DBs that were manned up on other WRs and will peel off magically.

Are you guys allowed to talk about any of this or do we need to wait until Tuesday?

[cdj]

Tuesday. Keep the questions coming though. If EA SPORTS doesn't answer them on Tuesday in blogs/media, either we will try and answer or we will try and get them answered straight from the team.

[psuexv]

Tuesday. Keep the questions coming though. If EA SPORTS doesn't answer them on Tuesday in blogs/media, either we will try and answer or we will try and get them answered straight from the team.

Thanks Chris. Main question for me will be what I said before - How does the "have to look at the ball" interaction for the DBs work for the DBs that aren't on that particular WR? Do you actually see a difference of the DBs reaction if they are in man or zone, like you should?

[psuexv]

Another question will be - does the throwing on the run work for throwing the ball away?

[CLW]

I noticed they said the DBs have to see the ball to react but didn't mention it for WRs. Does it apply both ways? I.e. can I manually or will my CPU WR make a catch w/o possibly even knowing the ball is in the air? Also the whole "light up" thing needs further clarification as many indicated above. Will the WR be able to make a catch if he isn't lit up? If so, does throwing to a receiver that is not lit up affect the likelihood a catch will or will not be made?

I like that there are more throwing options now but how do we throw a lob, bullet, etc...? I.e. how do I as a user affect the trajectory of my throws?

Are the new drop backs automatic? If so, can the user get out of the animation or do you have to do the dropback first before taking control of the QB?

Is there a rating that makes some QBs better at throwing on the run while others will struggle more with accuracy/throw power?

[psuexv]

I noticed they said the DBs have to see the ball to react but didn't mention it for WRs. Does it apply both ways? I.e. can I manually or will my CPU WR make a catch w/o possibly even knowing the ball is in the air?

Yes, it seems WRs need to see the ball too



- Both offensive and defensive players "have to see it before they can make a play on the ball."

[xMrHitStickx904]

watched the video, and I like the changes. of course, I'll need to judge it myself, but I like how the trajectory of the passes are looking. as long as I can still have user control to make catches & trigger certain spec. catch animations, I love it.

[baseballplyrmvp]

so when larry says "no more psychich db's" what exactly is he referring to? is it just regarding a db's ability to make a play on the ball when his back is turned, or does it also apply to how a db covers his receiver as well?

its still present in the game how the db's run the route of the receiver. its not as blatant as what it was in past versions of the game where a db could be 5 yards in front of his cover man, but i still see db's making a cut before the wr does (seems to only be for great db's).

[Jayrah]

Yes, it seems WRs need to see the ball too
Thus, the icons lighting up... :fp::easy: With the light up though I do have a question: At some point during the play will a lit up receiver UNLIGHT? Will a less aware wr, for example, lose focus during a play and give up on it if he gets covered or finishes his route?

My biggest question will be on screen plays. How is the blocking on an HB screen play going to affect the dropback? In all previous versions the o-line just whiffs on 3 out of 4 d-linemen and allow them a free shot at the qb. No matter what dropback you put in the game, if this happens via the o-line, the qb cannot get the pass away cleanly, especially from under center. There needs to be an "engagement period" from the o-line to make a screen a run-able play.

Another is are they still working on tuning db coverage OR is LSU DB #7 just an elite cb so he's able to guess routes better than other cbs? The "psychic db" pattern here has NOT changed based on the gameplay footage because dbs are still running routes better than the wrs! That is as much, if not an even bigger problem for me is that the dbs run the route as if they were in the huddle. If a lesser db will trail routes and the better dbs just have a "sense" for them then I will be fine, but if all cbs play as Mr Matthew in game... I will not consider psychic dbs eliminated.

I do love what we see here from the qbs, especially the rollouts, as those are the most difficult thing to do in the game. As asked before, when can we take over the qb and if we throw it away, will the qb throw to the correct side of the field? I've had my qb spin around to throw the ball away to the other side of the field far too often before when he's on the run.

Only 2 more questions pertaining to this info and then I'll probably wait for Tuesday to ask more because I think my other questions could be answered in the blog. First, with the new "see the ball to make a play on it" technique, does pass interference exist? Will a db that does not see the ball run into a wr and will it be called? And secondly, do any new interactions exist between a db and a wr? If a db gets beat badly (instead of just leaving the wr WIDE open) will he grab a hold of the wr to draw a holding penalty instead of giving up a td, or anything like that?

Thanks guys, really excited to see this info.

[Jayrah]

Oh also, does intentional grounding exist? :fp:

[I OU a Beatn]

I don't know, but I still saw corners running the route ahead of the receiver in several of the clips they showed last night. I thought it was funny because as soon as he said psychic DBs are gone, the very next clip the DB was like 3 yards ahead of the receiver running an in route. :D

I don't know if it was footage from '11 showing what they meant, but I hope to God they removed that. Not only does it highly disrupt the passing game, it's just plain annoying to see.

[psuexv]

Thus, the icons lighting up yes that's my take on it too. When the icon lights up, they are in the stage of their route to see/make a catch.

[Jayrah]

Something I don't see here that I really wish I did is the ability for multiple players on the field to attempt to make a play on the ball when it's in the air. Take the very last clip at 14:42 for example. The USC wr goes and makes a play on the ball. Instead of diving in to knock it free or making a late dive to knock the ball away, the Ucla S and CB just avoid contact, meaning it is impossible for the wr to drop it. I don't like the look of a defender conceding the play like that, mostly because you won't hardly ever see it IRL. This is the type of play I'm talking about when I say "more wr/db interactions".

Or take the Georgia/Kentucky clip at 13:30 as another example. The db is in perfect position to make a play on the ball! All he needs to do is reach around the wr and attempt to knock the ball away. That's the play a db would attempt to make IRL. Instead, the db concedes the catch and makes an awkward tackle. On that same play, the S #48 should come over and attempt to make the tackle! He is not in a any position to make the play on the ball, but he is close enough in proximity to give an effort toward the wr.

Anyways, I'm getting nit-picky with the last example, but I want to see more of an honest effort from more than just one player at a time on the field. 3 more good things that I see:

-I am in LOVE with the sideline catches! No more catching and holding with both feet in bounds for 3 seconds.

-It really looks like we'll be able to tell the difference between qb dropbacks in their agility, which leads me to believe that making a move out of the pocket will also vary. On top of this, the D-linemen in these clips are reacting much much better without being able to latch on to a qb who is not inside their tackle range while he's throwing (I'm assuming the rollout effect and new throwing animations took care of the issue). Hopefully with the new trajectory stuff, they have added passing zone accuracy for short, middle and deep passes.

-It looks like momentum has become more of a factor. Not enough, but more. At least with the wrs (for the most part), the wr has to actually make the cut in and out of his breaks. Db's are also not (for the most part) able to stop and change directions on a dime. This is especially true when their back is turned which is GREAT to see. Hopefully this extra "cut step" has been added to runners with the ball too.

[hawkeyeguy]

Is it just me or do the animations look really bad?

[baseballplyrmvp]

please, please, please, someone tell me on tuesday that the 6 qb ratings from madden made it in this year.

[beartide06]

I don't know, but I still saw corners running the route ahead of the receiver in several of the clips they showed last night. I thought it was funny because as soon as he said psychic DBs are gone, the very next clip the DB was like 3 yards ahead of the receiver running an in route. :D

I don't know if it was footage from '11 showing what they meant, but I hope to God they removed that. Not only does it highly disrupt the passing game, it's just plain annoying to see.

This is EXACTLY what I was thinking almost word for word! Haha. I am hoping that was 12 gameplay with 13 graphics showing what they previously would do. If not, that was definitely psychic DB#7 lol.

[xMrHitStickx904]

" DB #7 " definitely ran the receivers' route a few times during those clips lol.

[skipwondah33]

I will really be interested to see how this actually works. defensive players "have to see it before they can make a play on the ball hopefully it's not just for the DB that is on your WR, but also eliminates the other DBs that were manned up on other WRs and will peel off magically.

2nd this

[Dr Death]

Chris, I know you can't answer anything now, but I want to ask a question that will hopefully be addressed Tuesday in the Video Blog or, if not, maybe you can answer after that. In regards to the WR icons not showing up or lighting up my question is this:

Let's say I am in 5-wide and run what EA calls Smash, or in the :Cincinnati: playbook it's called Bearcat Smash, but let's say I call that play w/ the trips side to the left and I am on the left hash. I recognize that the D is in Cover 2, thus my inside WR on the trips side - who's running a post route - should be open. The middle WR on the trips side and the inside WR on the other side are running Corner routes, so they should tie up the FS/SS. Okay... so at the snap of the ball I notice my LT getting beaten badly by the DE and I know if I hold the ball it's going to be a sack...

Can I choose to throw to the WR running the post route if I put touch on the ball and lead him to the post even though his icon isn't lit up and if so, once he makes the break for the post, will he then turn and locate the ball? This would be realistic and would be something you see in college and pro quite a bit... a QB throwing the ball to a spot, knowing his WR will get there but also avoiding a sack.

Again, I know you can't answer now, but would really appreciate an answer if they don't cover this on Tuesday. Thanks so much!

[psusnoop]

" DB #7 " definitely ran the receivers' route a few times during those clips lol.

Yes he did, noticed he wasn't even looking for the ball at the 1410 mark but turned and took off like he was playing it the whole time.

Having said that, I have no clue whether that was 13 or 12 that was showing there either. It is also a small sample size as well. Looking forwards to more gameplay vids that is for sure!!

Overall I like what I heard/read and look forward to seeing how it's implemented in the game. It could have a tremendous upside but could leave us all wanting more as well.

[skipwondah33]

Oh it was definitely 13 just judging off the players movement and various things.

He definitely did jump a few routes turning around and catching it like he was the WR. Then on a few in Zone looked like he waited then reacted.

Anyway I know it's just a build but I knew I seen what I saw lol

[Deuce]

" DB #7 " definitely ran the receivers' route a few times during those clips lol.

I dunno...I have to ask the question. How does EA emulate a shutdown corner? B/c #7 will most likely be a 99 rating. Shutdown corners take half the field away and I've heard people describe these elite corners as having the ability to run the route better than the wr. When in man coverage shouldn't the db look at the receiver the whole time and only turn to look for the ball when the receiver does? ...I'm not saying its right I just think #7 is a bad example.

This also bring up another point. How does EA program bad plays? Blown coverages or misplaying a ball? I think sometimes we want to see these players play perfectly every time but is that really what we want?

...again, I'm by no means saying the game is or ever will be perfect but I think looking at these AI issues as 'bad plays' can improve her enjoyment of the game tremendously.



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[Details]

I like the idea of icons that dim and brighten. It adds an element to passing without going to extremes like the absurd vision cone. We'll have to see how it plays.

[I OU a Beatn]

I dunno...I have to ask the question. How does EA emulate a shutdown corner? B/c #7 will most likely be a 99 rating. Shutdown corners take half the field away and I've heard people describe these elite corners as having the ability to run the route better than the wr. When in man coverage shouldn't the db look at the receiver the whole time and only turn to look for the ball when the receiver does? ...I'm not saying its right I just think #7 is a bad example.

This also bring up another point. How does EA program bad plays? Blown coverages or misplaying a ball? I think sometimes we want to see these players play perfectly every time but is that really what we want?

...again, I'm by no means saying the game is or ever will be perfect but I think looking at these AI issues as 'bad plays' can improve her enjoyment of the game tremendously.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

In several clips he was literally 3 yards ahead of the receiver. If that were to happen in a real life situation, the receiver would just turn the other way and be completely wide open, especially in man coverage. I can understand jumping a route, but I can not understand a DB running ahead of a receiver by 3 yards. It was a huge problem last year and a huge problem the year before.

I just hope it's not an issue again this year.

[Deuce]

I need to watch it again. To me it looked like he was almost attached to the wr until the ball was thrown then broke off to make a play on the ball.

I know it's been an issue for a while so hopefully they continue to improve on it.


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[xMrHitStickx904]

I dunno...I have to ask the question. How does EA emulate a shutdown corner? B/c #7 will most likely be a 99 rating. Shutdown corners take half the field away and I've heard people describe these elite corners as having the ability to run the route better than the wr. When in man coverage shouldn't the db look at the receiver the whole time and only turn to look for the ball when the receiver does? ...I'm not saying its right I just think #7 is a bad example.

This also bring up another point. How does EA program bad plays? Blown coverages or misplaying a ball? I think sometimes we want to see these players play perfectly every time but is that really what we want?

...again, I'm by no means saying the game is or ever will be perfect but I think looking at these AI issues as 'bad plays' can improve her enjoyment of the game tremendously.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I get what you're saying here, it's definitely valid with the emulation of a shutdown corner. thing is, NCAA corners in general aren't shutdown corners on a level like that. But I agree with I OU, even the best corners aren't 3 yards in front of a receiver, & against man coverage, the more complex offenses have choice route to combat corners who over play short or medium routes. It won't be perfect, it's impossible, but I'm interested to see if the new passing mechanics will allow us to throw not only to a spot before the receiver gets there, but if we could pinpoint passes to either shoulder, the hip pocket, breast plate etc. That right there, in addition to new trajectory could revolutionize passing. In fact, it makes running the Air Raid more fun x100.

[psuexv]

Chris, I know you can't answer anything now, but I want to ask a question that will hopefully be addressed Tuesday in the Video Blog or, if not, maybe you can answer after that. In regards to the WR icons not showing up or lighting up my question is this:

Let's say I am in 5-wide and run what EA calls Smash, or in the :Cincinnati: playbook it's called Bearcat Smash, but let's say I call that play w/ the trips side to the left and I am on the left hash. I recognize that the D is in Cover 2, thus my inside WR on the trips side - who's running a post route - should be open. The middle WR on the trips side and the inside WR on the other side are running Corner routes, so they should tie up the FS/SS. Okay... so at the snap of the ball I notice my LT getting beaten badly by the DE and I know if I hold the ball it's going to be a sack...

Can I choose to throw to the WR running the post route if I put touch on the ball and lead him to the post even though his icon isn't lit up and if so, once he makes the break for the post, will he then turn and locate the ball? This would be realistic and would be something you see in college and pro quite a bit... a QB throwing the ball to a spot, knowing his WR will get there but also avoiding a sack.

Again, I know you can't answer now, but would really appreciate an answer if they don't cover this on Tuesday. Thanks so much!

yeah I was kind of wondering the same thing. Not so much in the I'm getting blitzed and need to get rid of the ball quickly, but more so in the timing routes that are very prevalent in football.

[ryby6969]

Hopefully it will have something to do with how well the WR is rated. Does Play recognition even matter for WR's? This would be huge for option routes and seeing blitzes.

[Tarhead10]

I do like the animations of the USC QB at the 14:04 mark, nice touch when he brings his left arm closer to the body as a more natural and realistic look, nice touch...

[beartide06]

One thing I did notice at the 14:16 mark is that when the WR's icon lights up, the WR's head turns to look for the ball. This occured on all the routes except for the :360a: receiver. I believe the :360a: WR was running a curl or out route and his icon actually lit up a little before he turned. This would make sense because as soon as he turns the ball is supposed to be there on routes like that. This definitely adds a lot more realism to the passing game, and should result in well timed passes.

[jaymo76]

I don't know, but I still saw corners running the route ahead of the receiver in several of the clips they showed last night. I thought it was funny because as soon as he said psychic DBs are gone, the very next clip the DB was like 3 yards ahead of the receiver running an in route. :D

I don't know if it was footage from '11 showing what they meant, but I hope to God they removed that. Not only does it highly disrupt the passing game, it's just plain annoying to see.

That was my first reaction too. I was talking to myself saying that the LSU DB was running the route. If that is the case, frankly all of the other passing game changes are meaningless.

[OSUCowboyofMD]

That Oklahoma State uniform needs to be fixed!

[Rudy]

I like the idea of having to see the ball for WRs and DBs (no more psychic stuff) and the pass trajectories but the video didn't actually show this. Hopefully EA will provide a video showcasing the different trajectories.

The players still have almost no weight and momentum in that video. I just hate how EA does player movement in NCAA football. At least I saw a working juke move.

[baseballplyrmvp]

does having to see the ball to make a play on it mean no more over the shoulder ints for the cpu? :o

[Jayrah]

At least I saw a working juke move. Um, no, that was NOT a working juke. That was a cartoony move. Running downfield and then juking backwards on the fly.... This is why I didn't agree with the few of you who wanted "more" juke. It's not even realistic!


In several clips he was literally 3 yards ahead of the receiver. If that were to happen in a real life situation, the receiver would just turn the other way and be completely wide open, especially in man coverage. I can understand jumping a route, but I can not understand a DB running ahead of a receiver by 3 yards. It was a huge problem last year and a huge problem the year before.

I just hope it's not an issue again this year.I haven't totally agreed with I OU in the past, but here I am 100% in his corner. A great db does not "run the route" before the receiver because he gets toasted that way. Instead he plays a close trail technique and then jumps the route at the breaking point once he realizes what the route is! The only route that a db can jump before the receiver makes a break is the curl, but if that's the case I hope the double move is properly worked.

[Little Steve]

this game would probley be the best game to date... except that cinny bearcats new qb sucks........ they got a great new fresman qb could u please overrate him?

[ram29jackson]

I thought you could lead the pass these last few years already?

[JerzeyReign]

I thought you could lead the pass these last few years already?

Same thing I was thinking.

[steelerfan]

Same thing I was thinking.

You can. I'm guessing this had something to do with the 25 trajectories. :dunno:

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2

[Rudy]

Um, no, that was NOT a working juke. That was a cartoony move. Running downfield and then juking backwards on the fly.... This is why I didn't agree with the few of you who wanted "more" juke. It's not even realistic!


I agree but my whole point about the juke move in the past was I want to be able to make people miss. A more realistic juke would be preferred IF player momentum is done right. Players make defenders miss constantly in a football game by using a simple cut and watch the defender fly by as he can't stop in time to make the tackle. That doesn't happen in EA NCAA Football. They just mirror your every move.

I'm sorry but I just can't let this area go. After feeling screwed over by NCAA 12 I would get annoyed every time I watched football on the weekends and watch offensive guys set up defenders by using their weight against them. I just felt I couldn't do that in NCAA 12 and it really hurt the fun factor while playing. I'd rather have a cartoony move than nothing that works but I would really prefer a football game where the player movement is much closer to reality (and NCAA 13 will definitely not have this from what I've seen).

Anyway, I'll have to wait and see how these trajectories really help the passing game. I'd like to hear more about timing routes and if they can be pulled off a little easier. I've always felt it's been too hard to throw those deep comebacks on the outside since they are timing routes which the game doesn't let you pull off well. Combine that with psychic DBs and WRs that don't fight for the ball and those routes were just far too risky to throw in the game.

[Paakaa10]

That Oklahoma State uniform needs to be fixed!


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http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006VB2UNC/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=thegamtai-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B006VB2UNC

I don't know exactly what of the Okie State uniforms will be offered in the Amazon pre-order download, but I don't think there's reason to worry that the uniform won't be correct in game.

[AustinWolv]

Um, no, that was NOT a working juke. That was a cartoony move. Running downfield and then juking backwards on the fly.... This is why I didn't agree with the few of you who wanted "more" juke. It's not even realistic!
Exactly!

When will the option to throw the ball in the dirt intentionally be added? Like when a screen pass is covered up and the QB just throws it at the receiver's feet.

[jaymo76]

I have watched that clip about 25 times this morning. Some of the passes dropping in over the LB 's look great. In addition, the QB drop back animations do appear to be more differentiated. However, I cannot get over the claim there are no psychic DB's and then watching two clips of the DB running the route of the receiver and turning on a dime to make a pick. I really, really, really hope this is OLD footage and that on Tuesday we will see something entirely different. I can't lie though... that DB footage really concerns me a little more each time I watch it.

[steelerfan]

I have watched that clip about 25 times this morning. Some of the passes dropping in over the LB 's look great. In addition, the QB drop back animations do appear to be more differentiated. However, I cannot get over the claim there are no psychic DB's and then watching two clips of the DB running the route of the receiver and turning on a dime to make a pick. I really, really, really hope this is OLD footage and that on Tuesday we will see something entirely different. I can't lie though... that DB footage really concerns me a little more each time I watch it.

WIP

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[Marlowe]

I agree but my whole point about the juke move in the past was I want to be able to make people miss. A more realistic juke would be preferred IF player momentum is done right. Players make defenders miss constantly in a football game by using a simple cut and watch the defender fly by as he can't stop in time to make the tackle. That doesn't happen in EA NCAA Football. They just mirror your every move.

You can do these things in '12 with the left stick. :dunno: Granted the scat backs or those with high elusiveness were more successful. Is your issue that you want the "juke" stick to do this? I'm confused. :confused:

As far as the video goes, eh...I'll wait til Tuesday. Too early to make assumptions at this point.

[OSUCowboyofMD]

I don't know exactly what of the Okie State uniforms will be offered in the Amazon pre-order download, but I don't think there's reason to worry that the uniform won't be correct in game.

But what exactly is the Oklahoma State pro combat uniform? In the video, it shows they have a number on their shoulder, but in real life, they don't. http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/002/085/627/129686694_display_image.jpg?1333313341

[xMrHitStickx904]

That juke move was horrible, I couldn't even imagine myself or anybody else fluidly juking like that in a game. PS2 jukes should be brought back IMO.

Also, this may have been said before, but I wonder if we can throw to receivers even when the icon isn't lit. I hope we can, especially for spread, timing offenses.

[I OU a Beatn]

WIP

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Hasn't it been a work in progress for about 5 years now? :D

I personally believe the time for that excuse has expired. It's very simple: a DB should never, ever, ever, ever run a route ahead of a receiver, especially if they are in man coverage. It should never happen. The fact that it does happen and the fact that it completely disrupts the passing game should create a sense of urgency within EA to get it corrected. It's unrealistic, and let's be honest, it looks stupid as hell. There are zero excuses as to why this is still in the game.

Like jaymo, I'm honestly hoping it's footage they used just to show what they meant when they said "psychic DBs," but unlike everyone else, I'm also fairly confident that was '13 footage, which means the monstrosity is still there.

[Boucher]

What in holy hell was that "Juke" move?? Also do we get more throwing styles this year? Or is that something there looking into next year

[steelerfan]

Hasn't it been a work in progress for about 5 years now? :D

I personally believe the time for that excuse has expired. It's very simple: a DB should never, ever, ever, ever run a route ahead of a receiver, especially if they are in man coverage. It should never happen. The fact that it does happen and the fact that it completely disrupts the passing game should create a sense of urgency within EA to get it corrected. It's unrealistic, and let's be honest, it looks stupid as hell. There are zero excuses as to why this is still in the game.

Like jaymo, I'm honestly hoping it's footage they used just to show what they meant when they said "psychic DBs," but unlike everyone else, I'm also fairly confident that was '13 footage, which means the monstrosity is still there.

Ok, smartass.

You're fucking looking at footage in April, and you expect it to be the release day product?

I understand the want for psychic DBs to be gone, I want that too. But to ignore the fact that it's April is dumb as shit.

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[I OU a Beatn]

Ok, smartass.

You're fucking looking at footage in April, and you expect it to be the release day product?

I understand the want for psychic DBs to be gone, I want that too. But to ignore the fact that it's April is dumb as shit.

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You are aware that they're on a one year development cycle, right? You do realize that because of that, they only have about another two months to actually work on this year's game, right? Do you honestly expect me to believe that they're going to fix something in two months that they haven't been able to fix in 6 years? Hell, forget about the other games, they've been working on this one for about 8 or 9 months, so I'll ask again: do you expect me to believe they're going to be able to fix something in 2 months that they haven't been able to fix in 9?

I'm not being a smartass...I'm using common sense. Because of their one year development cycle, when April comes around, they don't have very much time left and yes, their April builds(aside from graphics, maybe) are going to play almost identically to their final builds.

Now, with that said, I'm not going to do what I did last year and argue with you. You've proven time and time again that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and your only goal is to apparently jump down people's throats when they point out issues, so I'm not going to waste my time with you. I post legitimate issues without bashing anyone as I've always done, so if you can't add anything of worth, don't bother even reading my posts. It'll save us both the trouble.

[xMrHitStickx904]

quick comment on that : I played NCAA 12 before any patches, compared it to the demo that we have, & it virtually played the same. So, I'm not really convinced that a bunch of changes happen once the April development stages happen. Not saying that psychic DB's will be, or won't be gone, I just think it's worth pointing out. With that said, it is a WIP, but it's also worth pointing out that the game in April & May isn't very different from retail. It only seems that way because of patches that are released before the release date & patches that drop a week or so after. There was more pressure to have a great game on PS2 because true patch technology for those consoles & games didn't exist. We were stuck with what we got.

[steelerfan]

You are aware that they're on a one year development cycle, right? You do realize that because of that, they only have about another two months to actually work on this year's game, right? Do you honestly expect me to believe that they're going to fix something in two months that they haven't been able to fix in 6 years? Hell, forget about the other games, they've been working on this one for about 8 or 9 months, so I'll ask again: do you expect me to believe they're going to be able to fix something in 2 months that they haven't been able to fix in 9?

I'm not being a smartass...I'm using common sense. Because of their one year development cycle, when April comes around, they don't have very much time left and yes, their April builds(aside from graphics, maybe) are going to play almost identically to their final builds.

Now, with that said, I'm not going to do what I did last year and argue with you. You've proven time and time again that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and your only goal is to apparently jump down people's throats when they point out issues, so I'm not going to waste my time with you. I post legitimate issues without bashing anyone as I've always done, so if you can't add anything of worth, don't bother even reading my posts. It'll save us both the trouble.

Again, it is April. There is a difference between April and July. Having never played the game in April, you are the one who doesn't know what they're talking about.

In addition, how do you know that footage was from April and not November? You don't.

And no, I don't expect you to believe anything. Some of us, including some that won't say anything, get tired of every EA announcement, or early release of footage being met with this same tired BS.

To say you don't bash anyone is an absolute joke.

To say you're not going to discuss anything with me is funny, since you quoted me to start the conversation.

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[steelerfan]

quick comment on that : I played NCAA 12 before any patches, compared it to the demo that we have, & it virtually played the same. So, I'm not really convinced that a bunch of changes happen once the April development stages happen. Not saying that psychic DB's will be, or won't be gone, I just think it's worth pointing out. With that said, it is a WIP, but it's also worth pointing out that the game in April & May isn't very different from retail. It only seems that way because of patches that are released before the release date & patches that drop a week or so after. There was more pressure to have a great game on PS2 because true patch technology for those consoles & games didn't exist. We were stuck with what we got.

I can agree with alot of what you say here. However, games were "patched" after release on the PS2. Game developers would fix things, and the newer discs contained the fixes. The guys who bought a game close to release were screwed. The people who bought it a few months later, got a "patched" disc. Every game/company did this.

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[xMrHitStickx904]

I can agree with alot of what you say here. However, games were "patched" after release on the PS2. Game developers would fix things, and the newer discs contained the fixes. The guys who bought a game close to release were screwed. The people who bought it a few months later, got a "patched" disc. Every game/company did this.

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That, I didn't know. I knew in some cases (GTA San Andreas) that there were new versions of the game that dropped to patch certain things, but I wasn't aware that EA practiced that. Probably because most of the NCAA/Madden games that came out, I was happy with.

[I OU a Beatn]

Again, it is April. There is a difference between April and July. Having never played the game in April, you are the one who doesn't know what they're talking about.

In addition, how do you know that footage was from April and not November? You don't.

And no, I don't expect you to believe anything. Some of us, including some that won't say anything, get tired of every EA announcement, or early release of footage being met with this same tired BS.

To say you don't bash anyone is an absolute joke.

To say you're not going to discuss anything with me is funny, since you quoted me to start the conversation.

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Nothing is done in July except patchwork because the game has already shipped at that point, meaning they only have about two months from today to continue to work on NCAA. While I've never played an April build, I've seen videos. I said during April of last year after the first video that kick off returns would be overpowered. Guess what was overpowered in July? I said the pass rush still looked like it was too unaffective. Guess what was too unaffective in July? I said that DBs were running routes ahead of the receiver, so can you guess what they were still doing in July?

I'm all for giving them a chance, which is obvious since I do buy this game every single year. But to tell me that there's significant changes between April and July(and removing psychic DBs would be just that), well...I'm not buying it. I know better. You can tell yourself otherwise, but that's your business.

I don't understand what you mean by I wont believe anything, so could you elaborate? I watched the video that EA released. It clearly shows a DB running a route ahead of the receiver in not just one, but several clips. Do you want me to believe that I just dreamed that up or what? Do you want me to believe that the issue has been solved even though it's been the same for 6 years? Do you want me to believe that the same exact issue that has been broken for 6 years AND appeared in their newest video is imaginary? I don't know what else to say on that topic...it's in the video.

As for getting tired of the "BS," sorry if it hurts your feelings, but I don't care. EA released the video and I came here to talk aout it. If it hurts your feelings or angers you that I don't feel the same way about the game and it's possible issues, then you probably should just ignore my posts. I'm not going to jelly coat everything EA does. I saw an issue in the video that EA clearly stated was resolved, so I posted about it. I didn't once bash EA over it, nor did I bash anyone who didn't agree with me, so I truly do not see the problem.

Hope that clears things up.

[steelerfan]

That, I didn't know. I knew in some cases (GTA San Andreas) that there were new versions of the game that dropped to patch certain things, but I wasn't aware that EA practiced that. Probably because most of the NCAA/Madden games that came out, I was happy with.

I don't have specific knowledge of EA doing that. I just know it was a common practice back in the day

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[Paakaa10]

But what exactly is the Oklahoma State pro combat uniform?

I've had the same question on my mind, since they weren't a "special" Pro Combat team last year; I would assume that one of the uniform combinations will just be used as the Amazon pre-order bonus, though I have no 100% official confirmation on that.


In the video, it shows they have a number on their shoulder, but in real life, they don't.

Didn't notice that on the first viewing, but saw it towards the end of the video re-watching it now. My thought would be one of two things, though again I have nothing to confirm it:


It's a "throwback" uniform from a time when the jerseys had numbers on the shoulders.
It's a work-in-progress and may not be indicative of final product.


EDIT:
I suppose a third possibility could be that the Oklahoma State uniform set is getting shoulder numbers for the 2012 season and that uniform piece has just had its unofficial unveiling. Hard to know at this stage of things.

[Rudy]

You can do these things in '12 with the left stick. :dunno: Granted the scat backs or those with high elusiveness were more successful. Is your issue that you want the "juke" stick to do this? I'm confused. :confused:


Yes! I want the r-stick juke to return. Along with a more effective truck move and stiff arm. Ditch the dual stick cover up system. It's freaking useless.


That juke move was horrible, I couldn't even imagine myself or anybody else fluidly juking like that in a game. PS2 jukes should be brought back IMO.


I loved the PS2 juke (which was over-powered as well but fun). The movement of the players on the PS2 was just so much better than what we have on the PS3 imo.

I will apologize again for derailing the thread on player movement, momentum and the juke. I won't comment anymore in this thread (I'll really try, promise). It's just something that has grown to annoy me a great deal even though I know quite a few of you don't agree with me on the juke.

While I'm keeping things off topic, I'd love to see EA offer some old PS2 titles on PSN, especially if they upscaled it so it looked half decent in HD. If they sold an upscaled NCAA 06 on the PSN I would jump all over it for my college football fix.

[I OU a Beatn]

I'd pay $150 for NCAA '04 with updated graphics and online/achievement support. I'm not joking, either.

[xMrHitStickx904]

I'd pay $150 for NCAA '04 with updated graphics and online/achievement support. I'm not joking, either.


+ 100.

[Deuce]

I'd pay $150 for NCAA '04 with updated graphics and online/achievement support. I'm not joking, either.

:+1:


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[Rudy]

I'd pay $150 for NCAA '04 with updated graphics and online/achievement support. I'm not joking, either.

There are so many people that love NCAA 04 or 06 and remastering PS2 titles like Jak and Daxter, God of War, Sly Cooper, etc. are all making money. Tecmo re-released on the PSN as well. I think there would be a definite market for something like this but maybe I'm just dreaming. Heck, every year they should package an old classic game on the new disc as part of a collector's item. Maybe for NCAA 14 they could package NCAA 04 on the disk, some extra uniforms and charge their usual $30 markup. They would make money, especially if they released the collector's item a week early.

[xMrHitStickx904]

I'd buy a PS3 just for a remastered NCAA 04 from PS2. Now, if they ported NCAA 04, made it NCAA '14 with new graphics, online support, teambuilder & some of the nice animations that this gen has given us, I'm all for it.

[Deuce]

I really need to play 04 again. I really wonder if it's the game or my expectations have become to 'sophisticated'.


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[WolverineJay]

I go back every year and replay Dynasty mode in 04-07 on PS2.

I really truly think that 04 was the best all around gameplay. 06 gives you one heck of a challenge from the CPU thanks to the dominating IMPACT players. 05 is way more defensive (perfect pursuit angles and quick reaction of defenders) and much slower paced game than the others, but the HFA and other upgrades to Dynasty mode is why I still have fun with it. 07 has the garbage commit and jump the snap and the overpowered momentum boost, but it is the most fun to pass in hands down I feel that as soon as I start throwing the ball all over the field. In fact I noticed that in the NCAA 13 gameplay video that the defenders were playing the WR Curl route just like in 07 PS2 where the CB backpedals 4 yards then turns and looks back toward WR while still running down the field anticipating a streak (very similar to 07 where the Curl route was close to money).

[gschwendt]

Tradition Sports uploaded the NCAA segment to Youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sSKiF3gZT_g#!

[I OU a Beatn]

My concerns:

1. 0:18 - why is the DB running away from the ball?
2. 0:32 - LB stops running just before ball gets there and probably could have picked it off.
3. 0:47 - what in the world is the DB doing while the ball is in the air? It should have been an easy pick.
4. 1:07 and 1:15 - clear examples of DB running routes / cutting ahead of the receiver

Other than that, I didn't see anything that would make me feel uneasy about '13. I like they finally implemented a trajectory system as it was my number one complaint from past years. I still don't know whether 1:07 and 1:15 was intentionally set up that way...kind of sounds to me like he was using those clips as examples of what he was talking about. Hopefully that's the case.

I am absolutely baffled by #1 and #3, though.

[jaymo76]

I'd pay $150 for NCAA '04 with updated graphics and online/achievement support. I'm not joking, either.


NCAA 06... updated for PS3... name your price and I would pay it. :nod:

[xMrHitStickx904]

My concerns:

1. 0:18 - why is the DB running away from the ball?
2. 0:32 - LB stops running just before ball gets there and probably could have picked it off.
3. 0:47 - what in the world is the DB doing while the ball is in the air? It should have been an easy pick.
4. 1:07 and 1:15 - clear examples of DB running routes / cutting ahead of the receiver

Other than that, I didn't see anything that would make me feel uneasy about '13. I like they finally implemented a trajectory system as it was my number one complaint from past years. I still don't know whether 1:07 and 1:15 was intentionally set up that way...kind of sounds to me like he was using those clips as examples of what he was talking about. Hopefully that's the case.

I am absolutely baffled by #1 and #3, though.

Bolded instance really had me shaking my head. I don't care what difficulty it's on, no way that should be happening.

[morsdraconis]

Bolded instance really had me shaking my head. I don't care what difficulty it's on, no way that should be happening.

Looked like user control to me. :dunno:

[oweb26]

Or I would user control really quick myself to try and get it, but yeah that looks like a blown user control.

0:18 - why is the DB running away from the ball?
This also looks like a blown user control, as I have done this myself, or I really hope it is anyway.

1:07 and 1:15 - clear examples of DB running routes / cutting ahead of the receive
While it does seem as though they are running the route ahead of the reciever, wasn't this suppose to show throwing the ball across your body? I.e rolling right then throwing left. I wouldn't have a problem with that pick for me being stupid.

nitpicking every video always has me.......:dunno: :fp:


P.S 04 had a shit ton of problems as well! Wayyyyyy to easy to run the ball especially to the outside for instance.

[I OU a Beatn]

Shouldn't there be an icon under the defender if it's user controlled? There's no icon in ether of those clips.

It's hardly being nitpicky, either. If I said I didn't like the motion in which the QB threw the ball, yes. If I said I wasn't happy because the Oklahoma State uniforms were wrong, yes. Psychic DBs is an enormous problem so when footage is shown that makes it seem as though it is still there, or footage shown that shows DBs basically conceeding to catches, it's not being nitpicky.

Never had a problem stopping the run to the outside on '04. The absolutely only big problem '04 had was how the defense defended against bunch/tight sets, and they've never been able to get that particular thing right.

[cdj]

I have watched that clip about 25 times this morning. Some of the passes dropping in over the LB 's look great. In addition, the QB drop back animations do appear to be more differentiated. However, I cannot get over the claim there are no psychic DB's and then watching two clips of the DB running the route of the receiver and turning on a dime to make a pick. I really, really, really hope this is OLD footage and that on Tuesday we will see something entirely different. I can't lie though... that DB footage really concerns me a little more each time I watch it.

In some game areas, you can see big leaps from build to build not to mention in a few weeks or months time. A lot of footage used in shows like this can be weeks or months old and is meant to show the game, not analyze. Anytime you see the same footage looped/replayed (which was 90% of the GTTV footage), it's considered 'B-roll footage' that is just to play as a backdrop, not evaluation.

I would look closely at the footage that comes out this week, most notably Tuesday's webcast. It should be relatively recent and a better gauge for what we can expect come July.

[cdj]

But what exactly is the Oklahoma State pro combat uniform? In the video, it shows they have a number on their shoulder, but in real life, they don't.

I believe they stated in Official Podcast #2 that all of Okie State's uniforms are considered Pro Combat so they picked one uni combination and put it in the pre-order perks.

Ignore the shoulder numbers in the vid. It's a bug I've been told they are aware of and should be fixed by retail. Good eye - I didn't notice that in the clip.

[xMrHitStickx904]

Shouldn't there be an icon under the defender if it's user controlled? There's no icon in ether of those clips.

It's hardly being nitpicky, either. If I said I didn't like the motion in which the QB threw the ball, yes. If I said I wasn't happy because the Oklahoma State uniforms were wrong, yes. Psychic DBs is an enormous problem so when footage is shown that makes it seem as though it is still there, or footage shown that shows DBs basically conceeding to catches, it's not being nitpicky.

Never had a problem stopping the run to the outside on '04. The absolutely only big problem '04 had was how the defense defended against bunch/tight sets, and they've never been able to get that particular thing right.

yeah, man switching from Bunch/Tight formations have always been a problem, & in Madden/NCAA this year, it's a go-to formation. Neither man or zone defends it well.

[Jayrah]

I agree but my whole point about the juke move in the past was I want to be able to make people miss. A more realistic juke would be preferred IF player momentum is done right. Players make defenders miss constantly in a football game by using a simple cut and watch the defender fly by as he can't stop in time to make the tackle. That doesn't happen in EA NCAA Football. They just mirror your every move.

I'm sorry but I just can't let this area go. After feeling screwed over by NCAA 12 I would get annoyed every time I watched football on the weekends and watch offensive guys set up defenders by using their weight against them. I just felt I couldn't do that in NCAA 12 and it really hurt the fun factor while playing. I'd rather have a cartoony move than nothing that works but I would really prefer a football game where the player movement is much closer to reality (and NCAA 13 will definitely not have this from what I've seen).

Anyway, I'll have to wait and see how these trajectories really help the passing game. I'd like to hear more about timing routes and if they can be pulled off a little easier. I've always felt it's been too hard to throw those deep comebacks on the outside since they are timing routes which the game doesn't let you pull off well. Combine that with psychic DBs and WRs that don't fight for the ball and those routes were just far too risky to throw in the game.See I felt like the secondary defender was the issue in juke moves. I felt like 1 guy was easy to use "momentum" against, BUT the second guy was always there. The other 2 problems with the juke is that defenders don't react the way they should when a subtle move is made on them and the runners momentum is not properly done. The "you broke my ankles" move is not generally seen in football. It happens once in a while, but generally the "momentum" of any defender carries them past the point of the tackle in a juke situation. The defenders need to continue on their path and make an arm-tackle attempt (maybe fall down or get stuck with their cleats in the ground after squaring up to the tackle too late and taking a misstep). As for the runners momentum, when you let go of the left stick and sprint button, your runner should not stop on a dime. Instead he should "throttle down" for 2-3 steps, forcing the defender to slow down and THEN you should be able to cut him the other way and the difference would be acceleration rating.

That's the way I would like to see it done anyway. I'd rather have a subtle juke that only works sometimes, as opposed to a cartoony move that works everytime because you broke some ankles due to impossibility of the move. For the record, I made the "neutered" juke move in 12 quite effectively in open space. It just rarely works on multiple defenders because secondary defenders also do not react the way they should.

[Jayrah]

Bolded instance really had me shaking my head. I don't care what difficulty it's on, no way that should be happening.
Agreed.

Looked like user control to me. :dunno:
That's what I thought but the wr gets user controlled last second and icon pops up. Again the issue here in the CB running the route in front of the receiver!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think the simulation that plays out here is that the cb plays the first couple steps when the ball is in the air the way that he should if he were playing proper technique. He should be running with the receiver when he goes to cut off the pass, but the pass is behind him because he's so far in front of the play.

CDJ, I wish you would tell EA that the DB needs to be tuned to SLOW-PLAY the receiver. If the DB's initial step(s) were slowed down, this would fix the problem. The issue is NOT that the db makes the wrong move or does the wrong thing, it's that he does it all too soon! I also think this is something that COULD BE DONE by release. It's not a matter of the team not fixing it, because technically everything the db is doing is correct, but rather it's a matter of timing. The db and wr are based on the same ratings so if the cb has better "acc/quick/spd/" the game is allowing him to be faster at everything in the route than the receiver. That's all.

EA could fix this with 2 simple (I think) moves that wouldn't affect any other area. 1: Tune the backpedal to be a slower motion in the first 3 steps AND set a high limit (probably at 85-89) on db/s agility rating because that affects the turning ability. In those ways the db will almost always slow-play the route and yet can make up the difference if he's elite or better than the wr through the quickness and acceleration ratings.

[xMrHitStickx904]

I doubt if it was user control, there would have been an icon on that player. I don't know why for some interception attempts, that we don't have a backwards turn animation. Like, turning 180 degrees and then going up for the pick. That animation we saw was flat out bad.