Proving CPU knows your playcall

[keyser soze]

We have all heard EA state that the CPU does not know our play call. Well the past few days I have been messing around with the passing game and trying new formations. If you want to see the whole issue of "does the CPU know my play call exposed" mess around with the ace trio formation. That is when you have 3 WRs off to the right hand side and a WR far off to the left hand side with a single RB in the backfield. Now alternate between calling pass plays and running plays. On MOST pass plays you will only have 4 or at most 5 in the box, SOMETIMES only 3!!!! On MOST run plays you will have 5 minimum and typically 6 or even 7 in the box!!! Unbelievable how obvious they make it. I will go so far as to say that calling a RUN play from the huddle will result in a 4 man front 75% of the time on first down. Calling a pass out of this same formation on first down will result in a 3-man front 85% or more.... simply sad that they deny this.

[JeffHCross]

I don't recall seeing EA specifically deny it, but I don't exactly go looking either. I know I deny it, or at least believe it's not as absolute as some claim.

We had a healthy discussion on this some number of months ago (maybe even almost a year ago at this point), but I can't seem to find it at the moment. Either way, here are my main points against the idea of a "psychic" defense.

I've called pass plays plenty of times and seen 7 or more in the box, even pass plays out of blatantly pass-heavy formation, and yes, even when I've thrown multiple consecutive passes out of the same formation. If the CPU truly knew my playcall, and that was the primary factor in defense being called, then you would expect to practically never see a 4-3 against a spread formation pass. But I've seen it plenty of times.

The other oft-cited evidence is how the defense switches when you call an audible. Even if you call Audible -> Original over and over again, the defense will still make adjustments and reset their play, even though you aren't actually changing your play.

[JeffHCross]

Here was one of the discussions about it: http://www.thegamingtailgate.com/forums/showthread.php?2393-Psychic-Playcalling

[Pig Bomb]

I think Ben has said the CPU "does not know your play"..but he did not say they know if it's run or pass.... I think on Heisman level and maybe some other levels in order to add difficulty the CPU does in fact know if you are running or passing... sometimes the CPU will decide not to use it's psychic ability, meanwhile other times their defense will change from pass D to run D while you audible, even when you do it without changing formations so not one guy on offense moves.

you can also use this against the CPU using various tactics... EA needs to make the CPU call plays based on their players, down/distance, and based on what the human is calling... it just can't be that hard in 2011!! hell i just watched the Honda robot run around, hop on one foot, avoid humans walking past, and open/pour a drink...come on maaaaan!
http://world.honda.com/news/2011/c111108All-new-ASIMO/photo/images/24.jpg

[Rudy]

I think Ben has said the CPU "does not know your play"..but he did not say they know if it's run or pass.... I think on Heisman level and maybe some other levels in order to add difficulty the CPU does in fact know if you are running or passing... sometimes the CPU will decide not to use it's psychic ability, meanwhile other times their defense will change from pass D to run D while you audible, even when you do it without changing formations so not one guy on offense moves.

you can also use this against the CPU using various tactics... EA needs to make the CPU call plays based on their players, down/distance, and based on what the human is calling... it just can't be that hard in 2011!! hell i just watched the Honda robot run around, hop on one foot, avoid humans walking past, and open/pour a drink...come on maaaaan!


The cpu play calling is just bad. Late in a game when you are trying to run the clock out they will bring out a nickel or dime package against your heavy I on 3rd and 7. Or they burn time outs like crazy late in a game after a first down play, even with no huddle teams. Same goes for spiking the ball. That should be used far less imo and never after a first down. Madden adjusted the time out strategy to be at the 1:01 mark in M12 which is better than NCAA's strategy of burning them like crazy as soon as you hit 2:00. Both games need work in late game management.

[JeffHCross]

EA needs to make the CPU call plays based on their players, down/distance, and based on what the human is calling... it just can't be that hard in 2011!! hell i just watched the Honda robot run around, hop on one foot, avoid humans walking past, and open/pour a drink...come on maaaaan!Do you really want me to try to compare the money/resources available to Honda vs EA? ;)

I agree with you that the game needs it, and they should be able to do it. But I also know it's easier said than done. Not meaning that as an excuse, because it needs to be done.

[keyser soze]

EA has stated in an interview with the guys from the other site that they do NOT factor in the human playcall when calling the CPU play. This is FALSE and I can prove it statistically beyond any doubt.

[JeffHCross]

This is FALSE and I can prove it statistically beyond any doubt.Beyond any doubt? Good luck. Personally, I'd have to see the code to not have any doubt. I'd also have to see that interview to truly believe the claim.

[keyser soze]

Seriously, if I was at home I would fire up the game and tell you what plays to alternate between... call the ace trips/trio formation, the one with 4 WRs and no TE. Alternate between running and passing on every down... its amazing. You will NEVER see 3 or 4 in the box when you call a run but that is typically what you will see when you call a pass.

[JeffHCross]

I'm not saying I deny that you see that, keyser, but I also know, from personal experience, that sometimes we fit our observations to what we believe is true. Even with statistics ... and I've spent a ton of time playing with various statistics this year ... having anything "prove" something is pretty hard. Maybe if we could set up a ridiculous number of plays from the same scenario (1st and 10, 10:00 left in the 1st, 0-0, etc), then we could "prove" it, but otherwise it's just observational guesses based on formation.

Btw, that's what I meant with "good luck". Not that I was dismissing you, just that it'll take some luck to actually be able to prove something of this nature without seeing straight code.

[martywebb]

What I'd love to think is that it learns your tendencies as you play, thus calling the correct play against you. I hate to think that the CPU doesn't know your play, and I'm sure it does, to some measure. I guess I could ramble about this for 5 paragraphs, but I'll leave it with this. I'm sure the algorithm based on time, field position, situation, score and personnel determine a great deal in every CPU play call, so I'm going to leave it with that being the reason it's so good sometimes. I can count just as many times as it's been bad in the other hand too though.

[keyser soze]

Martywebb, you are incorrect. Here is what you do to test this. Turn penalties to OFF essentially so you can repeat down and distances. Next time you have the ball inside the 5 going in call a pass play out of a 4 WR set like ace-trips (one with the 4th WR and not a TE) and watch the defense come out in something OTHER than goal line. Then call the same formation and a HB dive on the same down and BOOM goal line defense, half your WR's are completely unguarded.

Can do this in the middle of the field as well and you will see "the box" nearly vacated for pass plays and heavily occupied for running plays. There is no way to deny that the CPU is basing their play call off your play call. Do they factor in down and distance? Well maybe in EXTREME situations like on 3rd and 20 the CPU might not load the box regardless of the play you call but on "normal" down and distances it's so obvious that I have a hard time NOT using it to my advantage.

Here is how to use this tactic to your advantage: Call Ace Trips pass play from the huddle and then when you line up you will see pretty much NO ONE in the LB position and more then likely a 3 man front. Simply audible to a HB DIVE and go for 8 yards easily. You can do this over and over and over if your center can handle the NT (he will get help from the guard). However, if you simply come out and call HB DIVE it's damn near IMPOSSIBLE to get much on it because they will put 6 in the box against your 5 blockers and likely blitz a CB to boot!

[keyser soze]

To those who answered, "To some degree, but not entirely" what exactly do you mean? Computers either know your play call or they don't. How can the CPU KINDA know your play call? That makes no sense. Digital world is 1's and 0's....

[baseballplyrmvp]

To those who answered, "To some degree, but not entirely" what exactly do you mean? Computers either know your play call or they don't. How can the CPU KINDA know your play call? That makes no sense. Digital world is 1's and 0's....

i'm under the impression that the cpu knows that its either a run or pass. it may not know the exact play, but it knows which one it is.

[Pig Bomb]

i'm under the impression that the cpu knows that its either a run or pass. it may not know the exact play, but it knows which one it is.


To those who answered, "To some degree, but not entirely" what exactly do you mean? Computers either know your play call or they don't. How can the CPU KINDA know your play call? That makes no sense. Digital world is 1's and 0's....

I tend to think its "to some degree" but on the other hand, when i run an option offense the defense will call a 4 man front and pinch them in when i call stuff up the middle...if i audible to an outside run without changing the formation the defense will use their psychic ability and spread the D line or change to some other D play...so i voted "yes" since i think they do know more than pass or run.

This is one of the reasons I stopped running the option this year...its stupid how psychic the D is.

[Rudy]

i'm under the impression that the cpu knows that its either a run or pass. it may not know the exact play, but it knows which one it is.

Exactly. It does seem as though they know the type of call but if they did know my play call they wouldn't be lining up in the nickel on 3rd and 7 when I'm killing clock in the game and have my I-tight formation out there. There is NO way they would line up in the nickel if they knew my call on 3rd down. I do think they "cheat" on audibles from a run to a pass or vice versa. I do believe there is a randomness there and that the cpu doesn't cheat on every play.

[Oneback]

In the interest of removing all doubt, I asked this very question when I was at EA directly to the devs. The answer is that every play is tagged either run or pass, you can see this by simply going to the play call screen. The CPU will call plays based on the play type you are calling. Obviously there are some other factors involved, but essentially this is one of the main factors in CPU defensive play calling.

[baseballplyrmvp]

In the interest of removing all doubt, I asked this very question when I was at EA directly to the devs. The answer is that every play is tagged either run or pass, you can see this by simply going to the play call screen. The CPU will call plays based on the play type you are calling. Obviously there are some other factors involved, but essentially this is one of the main factors in CPU defensive play calling.

it has to know something. i mean, how else do you explain the fact that the cpu almost always makes the correct adjustment, when you make a quick/formation audible.

i had it in a game last night, where i came out and threw on like my first 30 offensive snaps. i didnt make any audibles or anything, i just picked the play i wanted and ran it. sometime in the third quarter, i picked a 4 wide play, saw the cpu defense in a quarters defense with the MLB switching over to cover one of my receivers, essentially leaving only 3 players in the box (all d-linemen). so i quick audible to a run from the same formation, and immediately, the MLB, one corner, and both safeties come running up into the box (forming a 3-4). so i formation audible back to a short passing play, and the cpu switches back to its original play call. so i tried quick audibling to a deep passing play and play action, and the cpu didnt change its formation, but audibling to a run made the cpu switch from a quarters defense to a 3-4, all based on my attempted FIRST run of the game. i ended up passing the ball and moved on.

things like my situation above, arent random. they happen for a reason. and the cpu definately knows something.

[Oneback]

Isn't that what I just said, the CPU knows what type of play you are calling Run or Pass and calls defenses accordingly.

[baseballplyrmvp]

ya, i was just expanding on it/rambling about it.

[illwill10]

I dont even run the option. It is one thing if I am in the Wishbone and Triple option sets but if I am in an ace or even a pistol(1 RB), I dont want to see the CPU showing that they know what I am doing. I can have a great game passing and if I try to call a Read Option out of a Pistol Spread, they will sniff it out quickly. Another way you can tell that the CPU knows your plays is that if you change your play to a complete opposite play, you will be a exploit the defense at times because they intended it to be the original play. Ex, Switching a Four Vertical play to a run play will have good results(depending on LBs and DTs). I am not sure if they know your defensive plays, but there are plays I never call. I dont like calling Cover 2 Zone because CPU mostly calls verticals and my safety never make it there on time. I call man coverage alot so if the CPU has to beat my DBs if they move the ball.
I would rather the CPU track my tendencies to guess how to call plays than knowing plays. Of I always call a run on a short distance play, I want the CPU to fill the box. If I am constantly going deep, I want to see the CPU back their DBs up. CPUs tracking tendencies would force users to use their entire playbook.

[keyser soze]

In the interest of removing all doubt, I asked this very question when I was at EA directly to the devs. The answer is that every play is tagged either run or pass, you can see this by simply going to the play call screen. The CPU will call plays based on the play type you are calling. Obviously there are some other factors involved, but essentially this is one of the main factors in CPU defensive play calling.

This is interesting... this is the first I have ever heard of EA admitting to something like this. I know Rhombic asked this very question in an interview or when he was with the producers and they flat out said NO, the CPU doesn't factor your play call in at all. I wonder how/why EA would justify this?

[Oneback]

This is entirely my opinion as this was never expanded on by anyone, but from knowing what I know from playing the game I believe there is a feeling the game would become too easy if it were done any other way.

The defense does not seem to be built on anything other than the initial assignments (coverages, paths), chase ball and react to player movement. It's a very simplistic way to play defense. There aren't any gap responsibilities, run fits, alignment adjustments, coverage adjustments, etc.

What this means is the defense is out of position most of the time (alignment issues), they don't react to runs correctly (assignment/keys) and without the defense knowing what type of play you are calling they would have an even harder time stopping a human opponent.

Until they make the defense more complex there is really no need for making CPU defensive play calling more complex. I know it's frustrating as there is currently no real way to "setup" the defense aside from the feature that is in place that makes the defense play run fakes more aggressively. But when it comes down to brass tax there's really no other way to do it based upon the way the game is currently constructed.

The argument here should be about how the game needs to be reconstructed.

[illwill10]

This is entirely my opinion as this was never expanded on by anyone, but from knowing what I know from playing the game I believe there is a feeling the game would become too easy if it were done any other way.

The defense does not seem to be built on anything other than the initial assignments (coverages, paths), chase ball and react to player movement. It's a very simplistic way to play defense. There aren't any gap responsibilities, run fits, alignment adjustments, coverage adjustments, etc.

What this means is the defense is out of position most of the time (alignment issues), they don't react to runs correctly (assignment/keys) and without the defense knowing what type of play you are calling they would have an even harder time stopping a human opponent.

Until they make the defense more complex there is really no need for making CPU defensive play calling more complex. I know it's frustrating as there is currently no real way to "setup" the defense aside from the feature that is in place that makes the defense play run fakes more aggressively. But when it comes down to brass tax there's really no other way to do it based upon the way the game is currently constructed.

The argument here should be about how the game needs to be reconstructed.
I agree
That is what I was thinking. You dont see any realistic pre-snap adjustments from CPU from the standpoint of what has happened in game instead of knowing your call.
I would see it really hurting the CPU. Users would be able to exploit the CPU more. More plays like option plays and Play-Action woulf be available to call. But, it might force ratings to play a bigger role. I would like Coaches to either get more ratings and more tendencies. That way, it will decide how the CPu calls plays. If the CPU didnt know your plays, CPU playcalling would be completely random. I know gamers wouldnt want that.

[Rudy]

I think Madden's pre-play alignment is worse than NCAA. CBs can routinely be out of position at the snap trying to cover someone on the other side of the field. Both games fail to flip the nickel back to cover the slot WR in three WR sets and that always bugs me. The cpu also doesn't adjust their LBs enough if you line up in strong sets. If I'm in a Strong I with a FB and TE I expect the LBs to slide over. Too often they don't do that. I'd like them to be a little smarter in that respect. Does anyone know if the cpu is aware of the short side or wide side of a field when they make their defensive calls and adjustments?

[Oneback]

I think Madden's pre-play alignment is worse than NCAA. CBs can routinely be out of position at the snap trying to cover someone on the other side of the field. Both games fail to flip the nickel back to cover the slot WR in three WR sets and that always bugs me. The cpu also doesn't adjust their LBs enough if you line up in strong sets. If I'm in a Strong I with a FB and TE I expect the LBs to slide over. Too often they don't do that. I'd like them to be a little smarter in that respect. Does anyone know if the cpu is aware of the short side or wide side of a field when they make their defensive calls and adjustments?

Technically in real life, linebackers sliding over is dependent on the play\coverage called, for example if its Cover 1 the safety will typically rotate down to the offset FB, even with say quarters coverage there wouldn't be much if any movement by the LBers due to an off-set I. If playing quarters and its trips\trey and the linebacker alignment is dependent on the location of #3. For example if the defense is in base 43 and #3 is tight the OLBer would align halfway between #2 and #3 and the MLBer would align in a 30 tech to the strength, if #3 is wider the OLB would still align between #2 and #3 but now the MLBer would align in a 50 tech.

Your point still remains though and one of the primary reasons why I was voting hard for defensive alignment in the Wish List Tourney.

The problem with getting alignments correct is that it would then require correct gap assignments as well or else it would be too easy to spread the defense and run right up the middle. Funny how everything on defense is intertwined!

I would love nothing more than to have these aspects in the game, however there is a lot that goes into it, not saying it can't be done however. I believe if defensive alignments, assignments, adjustments and keys were correctly programmed into the game it would make the game more enjoyable and there would be less of a learning curve to newcomers to the game.

[keyser soze]

Oneback... problem is though that if you use audibles you can use this to your advantage HUGE. Get the CPU to call man and audible to sprint option. Come out in 4 WR TRIPS set with a pass play and audible to a DIVE... It is REALLY easy because just as you said, the CPU never learns despite that being on of their bullets on the back of the box a couple of years ago.

We can still run 3 plays for an entire game on heisman with virtually no problems for a SEASON... its a shame...

[Rudy]

I would love to see EA develop a VIP type system that 2K5 tried. It keeps track of your tendencies and stats. Then the cpu could use that against you (if you choose). Would make it interesting.

[Oneback]

I completely agree and would love to see the game take a more complex approach. We'll see.

[illwill10]

Oneback... problem is though that if you use audibles you can use this to your advantage HUGE. Get the CPU to call man and audible to sprint option. Come out in 4 WR TRIPS set with a pass play and audible to a DIVE... It is REALLY easy because just as you said, the CPU never learns despite that being on of their bullets on the back of the box a couple of years ago.

We can still run 3 plays for an entire game on heisman with virtually no problems for a SEASON... its a shame...
Agree
I want to full go deep into my playbook. If I make a custom playbook, I want to have to pull something out of the hat in a clutch moment. But like you said, as a user knowing that THE Cpu can be exploited by using audibles, you cant help to use them at times. Especially, with super DBs intercepting passes that we SHOULD be able to make.

[keyser soze]

I would love to see EA develop a VIP type system that 2K5 tried. It keeps track of your tendencies and stats. Then the cpu could use that against you (if you choose). Would make it interesting.

that would be awesome... zero chance of this ever happening though. the game already KNOWS our play call and its still easy! LOL

[illwill10]

Another reason I believe it is because CPU covers certain plays the same way. Their are plays that have slim chance of success and their are play that have a high chance of success. For example, depending on my TE, I will have great success calling Pistol Wing Trips TE TE Cross. I have a 90+% of success calling that play since CPU calls the same zone and my TE always gets open. If I call Pistol Spread Flex Deep Threat(I think), depending on speed of WR, I will have success because they will call a zone where the Safety has to retreat to sidelines. Since they dont retreat fast enough, if I have a fast WR I can get a big completion 80% of success.

[ram29jackson]

what ever it is, its been in the game since the Ps2 days..theres something in the AI that when you call a pass play, the AI calls a pass defense etc. and in practice mode is the same problem..you pick random play for the AI on defense, you dont get a random play, you get a play that is directly suppose to stop the random play your offense got in practice mode..if its a run play you get run blitzed without question...the only thing the AI doesnt seem to react to is if you audible from a pass to a run or visa verse as soon as you break your play call huddle...they need to develop logic where player ratings really matter and get rid of this predetermined play mapping by the AI