Community Feedback Discussion

[Roy38]

That is the purpose, correct.



A number of the members of the Game Changers programs own and maintain their own community websites. Obviously the intention of people in the program having these websites and forums is to help them collect information and feedback about the games with the hopes that passing that information along can result in improvements to the products.



Since many of the community event attendees were required to take time off from their employment--sometimes without having vacation time or paid time off to use to offset the time away--expenses were compensated. All community event attendees--not just those in the Game Changers program--also received a free copy of the game prior to retail release.

I have a question for cdj, JBHuskers, and gschwendt:

Do to your participation in all or part of the Game Changers program and Community Day events, do you feel like your time spent was worthwhile? Do you feel that you helped shape NCAA '12 through design and development or did most of your suggestions fall on deaf ears?

[JeffHCross]

I have a question for cdj, JBHuskers, and gschwendt:No love. :smh:

:D

[JBHuskers]

No love. :smh:

:D

You trying to say you deserve some? :D

[Roy38]

No love. :smh:

:D

Is there a reason my questions aren't being answered? I don't understand your response.

[Paakaa10]

I have a question for cdj, JBHuskers, and gschwendt:

Do to your participation in all or part of the Game Changers program and Community Day events, do you feel like your time spent was worthwhile? Do you feel that you helped shape NCAA '12 through design and development or did most of your suggestions fall on deaf ears?

You didn't address this to me directly--and I'm not going to speak for cdj, JB, or gschwendt--but as a member of the Game Changers and a Community Event attendee, I feel like I can speak to what you ask here on a personal level.

I know from my experience that some suggestions I made were taken into consideration, and some specific things actually were addressed from what I saw at the events and what ended up in the final game. Did everything I suggest receive full consideration from the team? Probably not, nor would I have expected that to be the case. In total, I spent about nine days in the studio during the development cycle of NCAA Football 12; three days in January, three days in April, and three days in May. I tried to make the most of my time, but that's a very small amount of time to actually be there and be able to provide face-to-face feedback.

As a result of my involvement, I got to be on a direct email basis--as did many of the other attendees--with members of the development team. As things have come up, I've sent emails to the team. Some have spawned email threads of multiple messages in conversation, some haven't. Again, I don't expect every email I send to turn into a full discussion.

I know some people would like to call bullshit on what I'm about to say, but for people in the Game Changers program and Community Event attendees who want to make their voice heard, it takes a considerable amount of time and effort invested. I've spent more days playing the game and collecting feedback from forums and completely ignoring my wife than I would like to admit. If I did not feel like my voice was being heard, I would not be involved in these programs.

I don't think anybody--and again, I can only speak for myself--involved in the Game Changers or Community Events takes any pleasure in seeing what has happened to NCAA Football 12 in the time since its retail release. I hate seeing all of the posts about people having issues in the game, and I don't think anybody wanted this to be the end result. But personally, I don't have the time or inclination to point fingers or speculate about where blame should be cast. All I know is to keep playing the game and watching the forums and sending my feedback where it's supposed to go. I can't write any programming code, so I can't do very much to help directly.

[JeffHCross]

Is there a reason my questions aren't being answered? I don't understand your response.My response was 'cause you didn't include me in the question ;)


then show a behind the scenes show on ESPNU about scrambling to get the game back under control and then successfullying doing so, that would be kinda cool.

Maybe that's asking for too much drama, but it would be nice to see.An ESPNU can't exactly happen at the drop of the hat ... maybe if it had been a weekly show that was still on ... I agree it would be nice. Very little chance of it happening though.

[Roy38]

You didn't address this to me directly--and I'm not going to speak for cdj, JB, or gschwendt--but as a member of the Game Changers and a Community Event attendee, I feel like I can speak to what you ask here on a personal level.

I know from my experience that some suggestions I made were taken into consideration, and some specific things actually were addressed from what I saw at the events and what ended up in the final game. Did everything I suggest receive full consideration from the team? Probably not, nor would I have expected that to be the case. In total, I spent about nine days in the studio during the development cycle of NCAA Football 12; three days in January, three days in April, and three days in May. I tried to make the most of my time, but that's a very small amount of time to actually be there and be able to provide face-to-face feedback.

As a result of my involvement, I got to be on a direct email basis--as did many of the other attendees--with members of the development team. As things have come up, I've sent emails to the team. Some have spawned email threads of multiple messages in conversation, some haven't. Again, I don't expect every email I send to turn into a full discussion.

I know some people would like to call bullshit on what I'm about to say, but for people in the Game Changers program and Community Event attendees who want to make their voice heard, it takes a considerable amount of time and effort invested. I've spent more days playing the game and collecting feedback from forums and completely ignoring my wife than I would like to admit. If I did not feel like my voice was being heard, I would not be involved in these programs.

I don't think anybody--and again, I can only speak for myself--involved in the Game Changers or Community Events takes any pleasure in seeing what has happened to NCAA Football 12 in the time since its retail release. I hate seeing all of the posts about people having issues in the game, and I don't think anybody wanted this to be the end result. But personally, I don't have the time or inclination to point fingers or speculate about where blame should be cast. All I know is to keep playing the game and watching the forums and sending my feedback where it's supposed to go. I can't write any programming code, so I can't do very much to help directly.

I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions. Maybe the others would like to chime in as well (if just to rid the sound of crickets I'm hearing) as I'd be interested in their responses as well. For the record, I just noticed that you were a participant as well, so many apologizes for overlooking you.

I'm glad you feel your time spent has been worthwhile. At least there appears to be some sort of listening going on at the EA Sports offices, although I question what specifically they are listening to. I get the sense their field of vision is very narrow, when they should be looking big picture. When they allocate their resources to small details (such as hairstyles, grass, etc.), they don't see the big issues at hand (reoccurring bugs that carry over title to title, dynasty issues, A.I. issues and bugs, etc.). I guess it comes down to the perception that they prefer to slap a new coat of paint and throw a band-aid on something, as opposed to actually fixing and polishing their product.

One more item I'd like to address, which I'm sure won't set well with everyone involved with the Game Changers program and Community Days events, but it would appear EA has "bought" another avenue to market the products as well as displace the dissatisfaction with said products. When I say "bought", I'm referring to your travel, food, hotel commendations, swag (free game, clothing, pens, toilet paper, etc. where applicable), and I would assume some form of pay for missed work time, whether through actual payment, advertising, etc. In essence, you could be viewed as an EA employee. Now before everyone gets their panties in a bunch, think about it for a second. When things turn for the worse, and I think we can all agree that NCAA '12 has, where are people going to complain? Sure, they could call, write, e-mail EA, go to their forums and express their anger, hit up their social media outlets such as Facebook or Twitter, go to certain extremes that don't need to be rehashed, etc., but it appears no one is listening. However, the people involved with Game Changers and Community Days , which have have a direct connection to the developers because, after all, EA is "listening" to your suggestions and recommendations towards the design, focus, implementation, etc. towards the game, are more readily available and a perceived "mouthpiece" for their product. Look at our conversation as an example of this. I feel like these programs are simply marketing ploys by EA Sports to get people to think they are listening to them - and even more so after Title Update #1 and #2. I find it absolutely absurd when Ben closes his blog on the second patch by stating, "I trust you will find that it has been well worth the wait." That implies his product is fixed - even beyond our expectations. When that truth has been revealed to be a blatant lie, they go silent...and this is where damage control (you guys), the neutral voice, comes in to deflect some of the anger from their company. I would look very carefully at your relationship with EA and what exactly that relationship brings to the table.

[Roy38]

My response was 'cause you didn't include me in the question ;)

I didn't notice your name immediately, but I apologize for leaving you out of the conversation. But hey, thanks for illustrating your importance through the small remarks.:deadhorse:

[bdoughty]

Boy who did not see this coming.



One more item I'd like to address, which I'm sure won't set well with everyone involved with the Game Changers program and Community Days events, but it would appear EA has "bought" another avenue to market the products as well as displace the dissatisfaction with said products.

I am going to jump in here as I have been around the industry and people working in it for quite some time. You are obviously a younger person or someone who has had little to no business experience. There will always be perks for people who cover the industry. In my time at OS I was given early access to the original Xbox Live and a personalized Headset for doing an interview with the announcer of Inside Drive 2004. Both myself and Steve Noah are listed as Free Agents in Inside Drive. The guys at 2Ksports always found a way to get us in the MLB games as minor league players. EA just happened to create a game changers program. They give a an outlet to people well known in the forums to cover information with their fellow forum members. If you think being "bought" is a company reimbursing you after what Paakka tried to explain to you then you are either a young fooolish teenager or just stirring up trouble because some feature of NCAA is not working to your liking.



I would look very carefully at your relationship with EA and what exactly that relationship brings to the table.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZtyvlzVm7Y

[Paakaa10]

One more item I'd like to address, which I'm sure won't set well with everyone involved with the Game Changers program and Community Days events, but it would appear EA has "bought" another avenue to market the products as well as displace the dissatisfaction with said products. When I say "bought", I'm referring to your travel, food, hotel commendations, swag (free game, clothing, pens, toilet paper, etc. where applicable), and I would assume some form of pay for missed work time, whether through actual payment, advertising, etc. In essence, you could be viewed as an EA employee.

Allow me to correct the later part of your statement. There is no direct exchange of money between EA SPORTS and people who attend Community Events. Travel is covered, hospitality is covered, but nobody gets paid to offset the time they missed at work. If a person goes to the event and doesn't have the paid time off or vacation time, then they lose whatever money they would have made at their employment for that time. For some people, a free video game and compensated travel expenses don't begin to touch the money they lose from not being on the clock.

I know that getting anything covered could essentially be construed as payment, believe me; I've heard the argument often enough. But we're also far from being employees at EA, if only because of our limited involvement in the development cycle.

It's not as though EA is the only company to hold community events, either. For some reason, these events and the people who attend them just seem to be placed under more scrutiny than those other companies.


Now before everyone gets their panties in a bunch, think about it for a second. When things turn for the worse, and I think we can all agree that NCAA '12 has, where are people going to complain? Sure, they could call, write, e-mail EA, go to their forums and express their anger, hit up their social media outlets such as Facebook or Twitter, go to certain extremes that don't need to be rehashed, etc., but it appears no one is listening.

To be fair, EA SPORTS has advertised email addresses specifically meant for people to send in feedback and any issues they are seeing with the game through their social media accounts. Anybody following those outlets would have that information available to them if they wanted to contact the development team directly. I know that the game's executive producer reads every single email that comes to that account.


However, the people involved with Game Changers and Community Days , which have have a direct connection to the developers because, after all, EA is "listening" to your suggestions and recommendations towards the design, focus, implementation, etc. towards the game, are more readily available and a perceived "mouthpiece" for their product. Look at our conversation as an example of this. I feel like these programs are simply marketing ploys by EA Sports to get people to think they are listening to them - and even more so after Title Update #1 and #2.

When we consider how many people frequent forums instead of emailing EA directly, it kind of just happens. People here--and some people away from here--know that The Gaming Tailgate's forums have a number of people who attended community events this year. The same is true for other websites owned and maintained by Game Changers and community attendees. If a person unhappy with the game doesn't think EA is going to listen to them, why wouldn't they come here and see if calling out to one of us might get them a better result? Whether that is actually true or not ends up not meaning much once somebody gets the belief in mind that trying to reach out to any official outlet at EA won't be fruitful for them.

I would prefer that people try to get in touch with the developers through the direct lines they have in place, but I also appreciate that--when I joined the Game Changers program--I would be seen as somebody in the community who might be granted more access than the average consumer. Again, if I thought that my time was being abused because I'm serving as an "unpaid intermediary" for the program, I wouldn't be in this position.


I find it absolutely absurd when Ben closes his blog on the second patch by stating, "I trust you will find that it has been well worth the wait." That implies his product is fixed - even beyond our expectations. When that truth has been revealed to be a blatant lie, they go silent...and this is where damage control (you guys), the neutral voice, comes in to deflect some of the anger from their company. I would look very carefully at your relationship with EA and what exactly that relationship brings to the table.

Again, the lines of communication were established by the company through the feedback email address. I don't feel at all like I've been here at the forums trying to say that Patch #1 or Patch #2 fixed everything that is still problematic with the game, and I don't feel like I've been intentionally deflecting anger from the company; though some people seem to take their excess anger out on us--people who gave feedback and had no direct hand in the creation of the game code--in addition to the development team at times.

When I joined the Game Changers program, I knew how polarizing EA SPORTS can be to people; there are people who love the company and the games, and an equal--probably greater--number who are on the opposite end of the spectrum. But having the opportunity to see inside the development process and provide feedback for the games has made it worthwhile for me.

I don't expect you to be in agreement with me about the various topics you've broached, but I hope that getting this perspective helps your understanding of the program and why somebody would put themselves into it.

[JeffHCross]

I didn't notice your name immediately, but I apologize for leaving you out of the conversation. But hey, thanks for illustrating your importance through the small remarks.Well, considering you had asked who had participated, and I had answered, I assumed that I, Paakaa, Oneback Kwizzy, and steelerfan, all of whom are prominent and regular posters here, were left out of your question for a reason.

Now on to your question:

Maybe the others would like to chime in as well (if just to rid the sound of crickets I'm hearing)I knew where you were going with it. I figured I'd let you make your point before responding.

When they allocate their resources to small details (such as hairstyles, grass, etc.), they don't see the big issues at hand (reoccurring bugs that carry over title to title, dynasty issues, A.I. issues and bugs, etc.). I guess it comes down to the perception that they prefer to slap a new coat of paint and throw a band-aid on something, as opposed to actually fixing and polishing their product.It also comes down to the perception of what has changed. Are you saying that you'd rather they not spend any resources on those issues? So you'd prefer to see a game that looks the exact same as years past? Some people argue it does anyway, though I think those people are nuts. And, at the end of the day, there is more than just the TGT audience (and who we represent) to consider. A game that looks like it belongs in 2007, but is coming out in 2011, probably isn't going to get very much attention from the more casual audience.

Or are you saying that they spent too many resources on the art? Because I've noticed that quite a few people mention the grass, HDR and dreadlocks as if they're new features that are designed to sell the game. What about the enhanced Custom Conferences? Removal of suction blocking and tackling? Custom Playbooks? Coaching Carousel? I'd hazard to guess that the art enhancements, with the possible exception of fundamentally changing the lighting, cost a fraction of what any of those features I listed cost.


I would assume some form of pay for missed work time, whether through actual payment, advertising, etc.You assume wrong.


When that truth has been revealed to be a blatant lie, they go silent...It is the weekend ...

EDIT: Also, "blatant lie" implies intent. I'm 99% certain that the team didn't intend to further break advertised features with the patch.


and this is where damage control (you guys), the neutral voice, comes in to deflect some of the anger from their company. I would look very carefully at your relationship with EA and what exactly that relationship brings to the table.Which posts, from Game Changers or Community Day participants, in this thread or any other, have been damage control? I sure haven't seen many, if any at all. In fact, I've seen several Community Day participants openly vote their frustration with the outcome of the second patch.

My "relationship" with EA has allowed me to provide feedback directly to EA, both before and post release. If you think the community as a whole is better off without that relationship, more power to you, but I would vehemently disagree.

[JeffHCross]

It's not as though EA is the only company to hold community events, either. For some reason, these events and the people who attend them just seem to be placed under more scrutiny than those other companies.To be fair, it seems that way because of the fact that we're focused on an EA game, so EA events are going to be scrutinized. I'm familiar with Community events at other companies that actually have far more scrutiny, or much more public reaction, than the NCAA community events do.

[Paakaa10]

To be fair, it seems that way because of the fact that we're focused on an EA game, so EA events are going to be scrutinized. I'm familiar with Community events at other companies that actually have far more scrutiny, or much more public reaction, than the NCAA community events do.

Fair enough; pardon the hyperbole.

I bet those Cooking Mama community events elicit really feisty reactions in the forums. :D

[ram29jackson]

Or are you saying that they spent too many resources on the art? Because I've noticed that quite a few people mention the grass, HDR and dreadlocks as if they're new features that are designed to sell the game. What about the enhanced Custom Conferences? Removal of suction blocking and tackling? Custom Playbooks? Coaching Carousel? I'd hazard to guess that the art enhancements, with the possible exception of fundamentally changing the lighting, cost a fraction of what any of those features I listed cost.

none of those things matter right now because the game wasnt what it was a week ago.

as far as visuals are concerned madden went Picasso on everything in comparison. I dont even have a high def TV and madden is just so colorful and shaped so well..players ,players helmets,uniforms colors..the players faces look fleshy in a cartoon video game sense ( i mean it looks good ) the cut scenes in the huddle, the between quarter distance shots/ angles... they didnt touch the grass and I could care less about the grass LOL...thats not to say NCAA players arent bad in their own right, its very cool, although, like its been said, the PS3 ncaa 12 colors and graphics do look like a bad copy and paste job in comparison..my created teams arent as sharpe as last year and the end zones are of course blaagghhtgh

and a tiny touch, i finished a full game of Madden for once, finally and noticed at the very end that they do the whole copyright disclaimer like a real game.. I was in awe and laughing at the same time ( I was giddy/amused)

sorry, may have went off track LOL just comparing stuff

[JeffHCross]

none of those things matter right now because the game wasnt what it was a week ago.He seemed to be discussing the resources that were allocated to the game as a whole, not the patch. So I shaped my response to that.

[ram29jackson]

He seemed to be discussing the resources that were allocated to the game as a whole, not the patch. So I shaped my response to that.

my response was about what I am thinking, not about what relates to what someone else is thinking. LOL Yes that was rather selfish of me LOL j/k....what ever you can do to the game , you should do, be it both creative and gameplay, thats great and all well and good.

what ever time and money they spent on what ever in a year, they botched in a month and I just want what I saw 2 weeks ago.........along with better playbooks...and home made chocolate cake with buttercream icing, sorry, that last one just kind of crossed my mind.......nevermind........cake.....

[Roy38]

Boy who did not see this coming.



I am going to jump in here as I have been around the industry and people working in it for quite some time. You are obviously a younger person or someone who has had little to no business experience. There will always be perks for people who cover the industry. In my time at OS I was given early access to the original Xbox Live and a personalized Headset for doing an interview with the announcer of Inside Drive 2004. Both myself and Steve Noah are listed as Free Agents in Inside Drive. The guys at 2Ksports always found a way to get us in the MLB games as minor league players. EA just happened to create a game changers program. They give a an outlet to people well known in the forums to cover information with their fellow forum members. If you think being "bought" is a company reimbursing you after what Paakka tried to explain to you then you are either a young fooolish teenager or just stirring up trouble because some feature of NCAA is not working to your liking.

I would have thought the way I outlined my post would indicate I am a mature person with a legitimate concern. I am married, have two children, and own my own successful business.

If you notice, I put "bought" in "quotes". It was an implied reference because I wasn't positive of the exact benefit the participants received. As Paakka outlined earlier,

[I]"Since many of the community event attendees were required to take time off from their employment--sometimes without having vacation time or paid time off to use to offset the time away--expenses were compensated. All community event attendees--not just those in the Game Changers program--also received a free copy of the game prior to retail release."

So to be clear, he does indicate that expenses were compensated, which could mean they were actually paid along with the other benefits. Since he was a little vague in his comment, at least to me, I used the term "bought" in "quotes". Again, regardless what they were given, my point remains the same. For all intents and purposes, these participants were brought in to provide information or knowledge to EA in exchange for travel, food, lodging, and a free copy of the game as well as early access at the very least. I would consider that a consulting "fee" on their product which, as you indicate, would be a reimbursement.

By the way, is the game to your liking?

[ebarws6]

Regarding the whole "don't like it, don't buy it" attitude, I personally think that's bullshit, excuse me. How is one to expect so many issues with features marketed so widely for the game, especially when they announce that fixes are on the way and somehow manage to mess things up even further? For example, some probably bought this game for the sole reason of making custom playbooks. I think it is completely inexcusable how many issues people have had with CPBs, and how they chose to deal with those issues. Basically, how are we supposed to know things are screwed up before we buy it? Yes, I know there are options such as renting it or waiting for a few weeks to see what everyone says, but honestly, when exciting features like the ones this year are announced, it's really hard to restrain from jumping on the game immediately (much respect for those who did hold back). I wish one of the community guys on here who got the game early could have ran into these problems earlier, could have saved people some time and money. (For the record I completely believe you guys saying that you never ran into the widespread problems, previous sentence was not sarcastic.)

Not trying to start a back and forth reply war with anyone or stir the pot in anyway, just stating my opinion.

[bdoughty]

I would have thought the way I outlined my post would indicate I am a mature person with a legitimate concern. I am married, have two children, and own my own successful business.
By the way, is the game to your liking?

You may just be a mature person but you seem to have a child like mentality when it comes to this business. Especially when you throw out.


I would look very carefully at your relationship with EA and what exactly that relationship brings to the table.

First of all it is none of your fucking business. Good heavens. This is a practice that happens in every business. Should they stop being a go-between because the product has issues? It is not like they are defending the issues or not responding to them. Does that benefit NCAA 13 and beyond? I like having the ear of someone who has the ear of EA. It beats calling customer service with a problem, complaint or suggestion or for that matter trying to do so on the EA Forums.



By the way, is the game to your liking?

To my liking, Yes. I play offline and never use custom playbooks. I can understand why people are upset but for cripes sake show me that perfect game. I like Dead Island but it does not mean I am happy with the graphical issues, crazy respawn issues and other problems.

[Paakaa10]

So to be clear, he does indicate that expenses were compensated, which could mean they were actually paid along with the other benefits. Since he was a little vague in his comment, at least to me, I used the term "bought" in "quotes". Again, regardless what they were given, my point remains the same. For all intensive purposes, these participants were brought in to provide information or knowledge to EA in exchange for travel, food, lodging, and a free copy of the game as well as early access at the very least. I would consider that a consulting "fee" on their product which, as you indicate, would be a reimbursement.

Since it seems clear that you did not see my response in between your previous message and the one here, I will direct you to it instead of re-typing what I said there: http://www.thegamingtailgate.com/forums/showthread.php?3570-NCAA-Football-12-Patch-2-Now-Available&p=103839&viewfull=1#post103839

[Roy38]

You may just be a mature person but you seem to have a child like mentality when it comes to this business. Especially when you throw out.



First of all it is none of your fucking business. Good heavens. This is a practice that happens in every business. Should they stop being a go-between because the product has issues? It is not like they are defending the issues or not responding to them. Does that benefit NCAA 13 and beyond? I like having the ear of someone who has the ear of EA. It beats calling customer service with a problem, complaint or suggestion or for that matter trying to do so on the EA Forums.




To my liking, Yes. I play offline and never use custom playbooks. I can understand why people are upset but for cripes sake show me that perfect game. I like Dead Island but it does not mean I am happy with the graphical issues, crazy respawn issues and other problems.

I do want to respond to the others who have responded to my questions and concerns, but your post can help clear some of the air.

1. Should they stop being a go-between because this product has issues?

That is their decision. I like the concept of the Game Changers program as well as the Community Day events, but I'd have concerns on what comes with being apart of those events. Which leads me to...

2. I like having the ear of someone who has the ear of EA. It beats calling customer service with a problem, complaint or suggestion or for that matter trying to do so on the EA Forums.

Here is where I have my concerns with that relationship. Your last sentence perfectly illustrates my point. It beats calling (EA) customer service with a problem, complaint, or suggestion or for that matter trying to do so on the EA Forums.

So to my point, EA is using those involved with the Game Changers program and the Community Day events as free Customer Service (minus the "reimbursement" cost.) Rather than contacting EA, you can contact these guys - and they are way more readily available to hear and respond to your opinions, both positive and negative, than anyone from EA.

Do you understand where my "child like" mentality is coming from now, or do you feel the need to try and belittle me some more? You lost me at Operation Sports, anyway...

[Deuce]

Pretty simple...if you don't like the relationship this site has with EA go away.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bdoughty]

Do you understand where my "child like" mentality is coming from now, or do you feel the need to try and belittle me some more? You lost me at Operation Sports, anyway...

No, I honestly have no clue where you are coming from. I see what you are saying, just have no clue why you are saying it... You like the concept of of the Game Changers and Community Day Events but you think that these guys are just a bunch of mouthpeices for EA who are just in it for the bling and getting the game early. You think think that EA is just taking advantage of the situation and these guys are just a bunch of dupes doing their dirty work, cheap. So you would rather talk to an EA rep over the phone that usually has little knowledge about the game then a person like the Game Changers who all have a pretty good working knowledge of the game. Maybe you would rather have Ben and the dev team spending hours on the forums keeping you updated on everything happening and there to apologize for their errors when they could be working on the actual game. Or even better have an inside guy like Ronnie at 2Ksports. Someone who never tows the company line, always shoots straight and gets you all the information you require because he is in the building (yes that was sarcasm).

Don't understand exactly what losing you at OS means but it appears that you leave your belittling for whole communities.

I will just have to say that I appreciate what the Game Changers do, glad to be part of this site and no further commentary from me is necessary.

[morsdraconis]

I don't know why you guys are wasting your time. I can tell you exactly why none of the admins here are wasting theirs. He's a moron from the other forum who just likes to totally lambast anything associated with EA and this website in any way that he can for no reason other than the fact that he's a troll.

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/attachments/f93/127134d1247491680-lotus-dealers-sell-their-stuff-msrp-including-new-evora-dont-feed-troll.jpg

[JBHuskers]

So I have been gone a majority of the weekend, so I will break the "silence" with .... whose business is it anyways on perks and what is spent and etc.

[JBHuskers]

Here is a simple sentence for anyone to understand.

WE ARE NOT BOUGHT OFF TO MARKET THEIR GAMES. THIS IS NOT A MARKETING AVENUE.

Those are such ridiculous statements.

End of story.

The massive amount of feedback has gotten the series in the right direction, but no one ever wants to focus on anything positive with the series, they just want to fucking rail every single negative into the ground.

[MuckyPup]

WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!:popcorn:

[ram29jackson]

So I have been gone a majority of the weekend, so I will break the "silence" with .... whose business is it anyways on perks and what is spent and etc.



:D since when are tranny bars a perk ?:D

[I OU a Beatn]

Here is a simple sentence for anyone to understand.

WE ARE NOT BOUGHT OFF TO MARKET THEIR GAMES. THIS IS NOT A MARKETING AVENUE.

Those are such ridiculous statements.

End of story.

The massive amount of feedback has gotten the series in the right direction, but no one ever wants to focus on anything positive with the series, they just want to fucking rail every single negative into the ground.

Not really. Two very well respected members of the NCAA community(arguably two of the MOST respected members of the NCAA community) have threatened or already have quit going to EA's community day events because they've both said the exact same thing - EA will not implement the necessary changes to make NCAA the game that it should be. What's the point of inviting members of the community to their studios for feedback and support if they're only going to listen to certain things, namely easy things that don't take much to be implemented? It may be incorrect, but that reads to me like it IS a publicity stunt pulled by EA at your guys' expense so they appear to the community that they actually care about what the fanbase wants.

What are the positive things with the series this generation? We're 6 years in and it still doesn't play as well as the PS2 version ever did. We have issues with ball trajectory. We have issues with the game plan settings being fucked up(this needs removed). We have issues with custom playbooks. We now have issues with no huddle. We have issues online involving NUMEROUS disconnection glitches, the goon kick, several offside glitches, etc...that have existed for years and have been knowingly ignored by EA. We have issues with defensive pursuit angles. We still have issues with morphing interception animations.

It's absolutely ridiculous the amount of issues this game has that have existed for multiple years. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that the intentions of the community day guys here are sincere. There's also absolutely no doubt in my mind that the intent of EA inviting you guys to come down and play the game is nothing short of a publicity stunt to appear like they're actually taking information from the community. Why else will they not listen to guys like rhombic and oneback, two of the arguably most knowledgeable guys on the entire planet when it comes to this game?

[oweb26]

Not really. Two very well respected members of the NCAA community(arguably two of the MOST respected members of the NCAA community) have threatened or already have quit going to EA's community day events because they've both said the exact same thing - EA will not implement the necessary changes to make NCAA the game that it should be.

I was about to say something but I will keep it to myself. All I will say is if you say so IOU, I only respect one of those guys you are referring to.

[Roy38]

Allow me to correct the later part of your statement. There is no direct exchange of money between EA SPORTS and people who attend Community Events. Travel is covered, hospitality is covered, but nobody gets paid to offset the time they missed at work. If a person goes to the event and doesn't have the paid time off or vacation time, then they lose whatever money they would have made at their employment for that time. For some people, a free video game and compensated travel expenses don't begin to touch the money they lose from not being on the clock.

I know that getting anything covered could essentially be construed as payment, believe me; I've heard the argument often enough. But we're also far from being employees at EA, if only because of our limited involvement in the development cycle.

It's not as though EA is the only company to hold community events, either. For some reason, these events and the people who attend them just seem to be placed under more scrutiny than those other companies.

Again, thanks for responding in a positive manner. I disagree with your statement somewhat. While I would agree these items may seem minimal, you at least felt it was enough to miss time from your normal job as well as any pay you would've received on those days. I think we agree to disagree on this topic and it's something we no longer need to discuss.


To be fair, EA SPORTS has advertised email addresses specifically meant for people to send in feedback and any issues they are seeing with the game through their social media accounts. Anybody following those outlets would have that information available to them if they wanted to contact the development team directly. I know that the game's executive producer reads every single email that comes to that account.

I seriously doubt this statement, but that's something to discuss at another time.


When we consider how many people frequent forums instead of emailing EA directly, it kind of just happens. People here--and some people away from here--know that The Gaming Tailgate's forums have a number of people who attended community events this year. The same is true for other websites owned and maintained by Game Changers and community attendees. If a person unhappy with the game doesn't think EA is going to listen to them, why wouldn't they come here and see if calling out to one of us might get them a better result? Whether that is actually true or not ends up not meaning much once somebody gets the belief in mind that trying to reach out to any official outlet at EA won't be fruitful for them.

I would prefer that people try to get in touch with the developers through the direct lines they have in place, but I also appreciate that--when I joined the Game Changers program--I would be seen as somebody in the community who might be granted more access than the average consumer. Again, if I thought that my time was being abused because I'm serving as an "unpaid intermediary" for the program, I wouldn't be in this position.

I'm sure you do. You and everyone else involved assumes their own risk.


Again, the lines of communication were established by the company through the feedback email address. I don't feel at all like I've been here at the forums trying to say that Patch #1 or Patch #2 fixed everything that is still problematic with the game, and I don't feel like I've been intentionally deflecting anger from the company; though some people seem to take their excess anger out on us--people who gave feedback and had no direct hand in the creation of the game code--in addition to the development team at times.

When I joined the Game Changers program, I knew how polarizing EA SPORTS can be to people; there are people who love the company and the games, and an equal--probably greater--number who are on the opposite end of the spectrum. But having the opportunity to see inside the development process and provide feedback for the games has made it worthwhile for me.

I don't expect you to be in agreement with me about the various topics you've broached, but I hope that getting this perspective helps your understanding of the program and why somebody would put themselves into it.

I'd like to think I'd be excited about the opportunity to do something to improve the series I've been apart of since the Bill Walsh days. As you pointed out earlier, you did feel like some of your thoughts were taken into consideration or put into action and that would be the draw to the opportunity. Since I'm not afforded that opportunity, I only have the perspective as a consumer. As a consumer, I've witnessed many ups and downs with the series, but lately its trend has been more negative than positive - but that's my point of view. Granted, there has been some significant improvements to the series (Online Dynasty being a huge upgrade) which I can't deny, but when those improvements don't work as intended (Custom Playbooks and Online Dynasty issues), it's easy to get frustrated. When those items are proclaimed fixed via a patch or tuner update and subsequently not, the frustration level increases. As we approach the end of the XBOX 360/PS3 lifecycle, we should be reaching the pinnacle of the series (which is another argument in itself, but I'll leave that one alone), but there have been very few high points over the last 5 years. I think this is easily evidenced through the sales figures over that time period.

Understand, I place no blame on any individuals associated with the Game Changers program or the Community Day events. The blame lies solely at EA's feet and for the consumers (myself included) for feeding their efforts or lack thereof.

Why waste the time to speak out? I've grown tired of EA's corporate schtick. When you go back to the beginning of NCAA '12's development cycle, you got the impression they were making a positive change. Adding in the Game Changers program and the Community Day events only enhanced that image. Fast forward to the present: How does their image appear now? I'll be the first to admit, there is plenty to like about NCAA '12 at first glance. As a member of the hardcore community, it was refreshing to be challenged for once - at least from the perspective of an Offensive Coordinator at a 1 start school in an Online Dynasty. Once the flaws crept in, most notably the Online Dynasty or "Transfer Failed" issues where I simply become a bystander as my games become simmed, that luster is completely removed.

Which brings me to my word of caution that I brought up earlier. I hope you can understand what I'm seeing. When you guys put yourself on the limb of:

"I see what you mean about that issue. I'll pass that along to Ben."
"We're aware of that and we've already given that information to the developers."

It's putting you in a precarious position, as another poster so easily illustrated for me, of being an EA Customer Service Representative or PR person. You're becoming the go-between between EA and the NCAA consumers - an unpaid or, at the very least, a minimally reimbursed one. It's just something I'm seeing from my end and I felt the need to point out. My intent was only to gather information and present a case - not to ruffle feathers or cause a fracture. Again, thanks for your time and I appreciate your candid responses.

[umhester04]

I find it pretty sad that this game in the current state that it's in is tearing apart people from this website. The mood from pre-game release to post game release has changed so much that it is staggering, however that seems to be what it is like every year. Props to NCAA's marketing department.

[Kwizzy]

Ok so I have been EXTREMELY busy lately and have not played any games in weeks so I cannot speak with first hand knowledge of the issues introduced by the 2nd patch. That being said, I would like to address some of the other things being discussed about the community day attendees and what not. Please note that I do not speak for anyone but myself, and I am not addressing these remarks to anyone specific but rather the community as a whole.

I am as disappointed as anyone regarding all of the issues and miscues that have plagued this release. Although I have not experienced some of the issues that others have had (and honest to god, none were experienced before the release of the first patch) the ones I have experienced are more frustrating than words can describe. The continued issues with the patches also, boggle my mind.

Now, as to the perception that I am nothing more than a bought and paid for mouth piece for EA… If I ever feel that EA’s intention in bringing me to the community events was anything other than providing valuable feedback to help improve this game dramatically I would not participate. While I do not refute that they are taking care of expenses in my travel, etc as has been discussed I will tell you that I have made, what for me is a serious sacrifice to take part in these events. This year I was granted 11 vacation days from work, I used 8 of those days on these events. As a result my yearly hunting trip with my dad & grandfather is being skipped, as is my yearly vacation with my constantly busy med-school student fiancé, not to mention the time spent picking little things apart rather than playing the game for enjoyment. I take that commitment on my part very seriously as has EA, and while I don’t expect any sympathy, I will not take anyone seriously who wants to question my commitment & integrity when dealing with EA and the community.

Having gotten all of that out of the way, I think there are several things at work here that need to be considered by the masses. When providing feedback & interacting with the DEVS I have NEVER felt like my feedback was not appreciated and examined. Now I would be lying if I said that I have been completely satisfied with the way my feedback has been incorporated. Also, as I said in other posts, I sometimes wonder how much freedom the devs actually have to incorporate my feedback on some of the larger issues especially and that is something I would like to clarify more before my continued participation. Believe me when I say that I will be speaking with EA to be sure that my time and energy spent is worth it, if I feel that I am banging my head against a brick wall I will not continue to do so. I cannot speak for others in the past or present who feel that their time was wasted. Personally, I can understand why a great deal of my feedback was NOT incorporated this year. I suggested and recommended drastic changes that addressed CORE gameplay issues and therefore are probably NOT going to be able to be dramatically addressed mid dev cycle. My hope is that in making decisions for future titles that these issues and suggestions are incorporated into the decision process as to what will be addressed in the upcoming title and in future releases. If I ever feel that there is no intent for that to be the case, I will not continue to participate. I HAVE NOT participated in the events before this year so I can only base my opinion on my own experiences here. Sorry this got so long-winded.

[Roy38]

Well, considering you had asked who had participated, and I had answered, I assumed that I, Paakaa, Oneback Kwizzy, and steelerfan, all of whom are prominent and regular posters here, were left out of your question for a reason.

Again, it was an oversight on my part. I immediately saw this website's owner and co-founders names, so I directed my attention towards them. Also, as you pointed out earlier, I didn't ask for your response. To that end, I didn't ask Paakaa either, but he decided to step in for some quality dialogue while you chose to beat your chest. Now, had you chosen the path to communicate, we'd be having a different conversation.


Now on to your question:
I knew where you were going with it. I figured I'd let you make your point before responding.
It also comes down to the perception of what has changed. Are you saying that you'd rather they not spend any resources on those issues? So you'd prefer to see a game that looks the exact same as years past? Some people argue it does anyway, though I think those people are nuts. And, at the end of the day, there is more than just the TGT audience (and who we represent) to consider. A game that looks like it belongs in 2007, but is coming out in 2011, probably isn't going to get very much attention from the more casual audience.

Or are you saying that they spent too many resources on the art? Because I've noticed that quite a few people mention the grass, HDR and dreadlocks as if they're new features that are designed to sell the game. What about the enhanced Custom Conferences? Removal of suction blocking and tackling? Custom Playbooks? Coaching Carousel? I'd hazard to guess that the art enhancements, with the possible exception of fundamentally changing the lighting, cost a fraction of what any of those features I listed cost.

You assume wrong.

I'm all for graphical upgrades, new features, etc. as the next guy, but not at the cost of actual gameplay. When you consider the numerous things they don't fix title to title (and I don't think we need to start a list here) and consequently title update to title update and tuner upgrade to tuner upgrade, I'd much rather they refocus their effort on making the game actual play beautifully. My point is I think their effort is misguided.


It is the weekend ...

Are you meaning the developers or those involved with these program?


EDIT: Also, "blatant lie" implies intent. I'm 99% certain that the team didn't intend to further break advertised features with the patch.

Point taken. However, when you consider Ben's statement to close his blog on Title Update #2, it is implied the problems are fixed, they've checked and double-checked the validity of the repair, and we will be perfectly happy after the long wait. He statement is blatantly false.



Which posts, from Game Changers or Community Day participants, in this thread or any other, have been damage control? I sure haven't seen many, if any at all. In fact, I've seen several Community Day participants openly vote their frustration with the outcome of the second patch.

My "relationship" with EA has allowed me to provide feedback directly to EA, both before and post release. If you think the community as a whole is better off without that relationship, more power to you, but I would vehemently disagree.

As I stated earlier and as another poster helped me make my point, you are in the unfortunate situation of becoming Customer Service Representatives to EA. I believe that your heart is in the right place and truthfully, it is a good idea, but I question EA's heart and motives on this. That's all I'm saying.

[Roy38]

Pretty simple...if you don't like the relationship this site has with EA go away.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't question this site's motives. I question EA's.

[Roy38]

No, I honestly have no clue where you are coming from. I see what you are saying, just have no clue why you are saying it... You like the concept of of the Game Changers and Community Day Events but you think that these guys are just a bunch of mouthpeices for EA who are just in it for the bling and getting the game early. You think think that EA is just taking advantage of the situation and these guys are just a bunch of dupes doing their dirty work, cheap. So you would rather talk to an EA rep over the phone that usually has little knowledge about the game then a person like the Game Changers who all have a pretty good working knowledge of the game. Maybe you would rather have Ben and the dev team spending hours on the forums keeping you updated on everything happening and there to apologize for their errors when they could be working on the actual game. Or even better have an inside guy like Ronnie at 2Ksports. Someone who never tows the company line, always shoots straight and gets you all the information you require because he is in the building (yes that was sarcasm).

Don't understand exactly what losing you at OS means but it appears that you leave your belittling for whole communities.

I will just have to say that I appreciate what the Game Changers do, glad to be part of this site and no further commentary from me is necessary.

:fp:

[Roy38]

I don't know why you guys are wasting your time. I can tell you exactly why none of the admins here are wasting theirs. He's a moron from the other forum who just likes to totally lambast anything associated with EA and this website in any way that he can for no reason other than the fact that he's a troll.

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/attachments/f93/127134d1247491680-lotus-dealers-sell-their-stuff-msrp-including-new-evora-dont-feed-troll.jpg

Appreciate the name calling. :up:

Last I checked, you can be involved in forums over the internet. As a matter of fact, you are a member from "the other forum", correct? I didn't realize I didn't have the capacity to express my views here. Must have missed that in the rules section...

[Roy38]

Here is a simple sentence for anyone to understand.

WE ARE NOT BOUGHT OFF TO MARKET THEIR GAMES. THIS IS NOT A MARKETING AVENUE.

Those are such ridiculous statements.

End of story.

The massive amount of feedback has gotten the series in the right direction, but no one ever wants to focus on anything positive with the series, they just want to fucking rail every single negative into the ground.

I never said that.

Which way is the right direction? The "one step forward, two steps back" method doesn't lend itself to moving in the right direction. I will openly admit there's a lot to like with NCAA '12, but EA continues to cripple themselves with (non-working or partly working) title updates and tuner upgrade(s).

[I OU a Beatn]

I was about to say something but I will keep it to myself. All I will say is if you say so IOU, I only respect one of those guys you are referring to.

You may not respect one of them, but you also can't argue that they know as much if not more than anyone else about how the game should play. They know the concepts that the game should have working correctly. If there was ever two people that I would seek advice on if I worked on NCAA, it's rhombic and oneback. They both know their shit.

Both of them have gone to community day, and both of them have straight up said that EA wasn't really interested in their feedback and weren't interested in making the changes needed to make this game as good as it could be. There's been issues with this engine ever since they introduced it with '07 on 360. They need to completely redo how a lot of things are done in the game. The morphing interceptions are the perfect example. In what universe should a defensive back be able to morph THROUGH my receiver to pick off a ball that should be a completion for the offense? I thought EA was trying to appeal to the simulation and hardcore audience?

Hell, I've personally sent them glitches. I sent them instructions on how to do the goon kick, and I think it's pretty obvious why that would need to be removed. I also sent them instructions on how to perform the disconnect glitch. I sent both of those last year. Guess what's still in the game this year and done the exact same way as the year before.

[Pig Bomb]

I thought EA was trying to appeal to the simulation and hardcore audience?
.

I WISH!!!

Where did you get that idea?? It's always been my opinion that EA want this game to appeal to everyone...they have teddy bear mascot football and one button gameplay for kids all the way up to Online Dynasty for serious multi-season harcore players. It's clear to me that most fo the stuff they put in the game will not appeal to guys that visit sites like this but rather the majority of buyers that don't! I mean who cares about how long your dreads are or what color some team's socks are if the game doesn't PLAY!

I also think the community leader stuff is more about internet marketing for EA than it is about getting ideas and feedback for the game...Although they will use some of the ideas we generate. EA uses the communtiy leaders as a tool for their benefit. However, I'm happy there are guys willing to be leaders and go to the events...if they help us get anything in the game we like [like getting custom playbooks back] it's all worth it. I also enjoy all the other aspects of a fan/community site like this one, as compared to a similar site we all know that has turned completely negative and the moderators don't even play the game anymore.

[oweb26]

:D If you say So IOU. I really don't have anything against either one personally. I will say they both do seemingly take a hell of a lot of time with game and have a good feel for the game, though one does seem like he enjoys getting his internet forum celebrity status ego stroked (that was a joke BTW), and has a pretty obvious bias towards EA, though I dont think it was always there. You post anything about the game he is here and on it, and probably more less in a negative manner. Is the game FUBAR probably, but not everyone is here to play the game in such a serious nature.

What I don't understand about Rhombic and people of his elk, is I joined the other site back in 06 or 05 and he was writing 1 page rants about the game then, here we are in 12 and he is still bitching about the game, is it justified probably, does it make him seem like he doesn't have anything else better to do with his life .......absolutely. Though I haven't seen any 1 page rants in awhile, and onebacks frustration seemingly came more off of frustration than anything else. The main problem is you guys care entirely too damn much about a game. Honestly you guys can never talk about any other gamers...from WOW...to COD players, you guys are just as uptight about this game as they are about those.

Even you, why in the hell would you take valuable time out of your life to send them videos, if in your opinion they aren't going to fix it? Don't feed me that to make the game better BS either. Are you holding out hope? If a girl tells you she will blow you one day are you still going to be asking 6 years later? If you answered yes then continue on arguing futile points, if you wouldn't then let it go. I have seen you numerous times say that "the first thing you do is try to break the game" WHY?? What purpose in the world does that solve besides pissing yourself off. Man you need another hobby if that is fun to you.

EA will never appeal to the hardcore crowd for general purposes I will say the hardcore crowd is roughly 200K, they sold 900K units. You cant even count OS as the hardcore crowd.

I come to this site to just talk about the game share strategies, etc. I am sure its a nice number of us that are here for that same reason, but instead we we get cluster fucked by the entire EA bashing, EA sucks crowd. Let's just face facts, this game will never been anything to a nice number of you guys especially if EA name is attached to it. In order for the game to go anywhere IMO they would have to scrap the entire engine which will not happen on a one year cycle, so we are back to square one with basically patching problems.

Last point/question what is up with this whole Utopia vs TGT imaginary thing going on? (Not directed at you IOU) Why is this site consistently referred to as "failgate" over there and over here they are "the other site"?? If this site is such a "failgate" why do users from over there come over here to complain? I just really don't get it, but I will say its quite amusing helps my work day go by anyway.

[ram29jackson]

I dont think they want major input from people they arent paying. they just want to be told when something isnt working as far as the really basic stuff...basic ,general, football,visual. like what they have testers for in the first place.

They just want to know ,..does third down visually come out to field as 3rd down..does the run play to left,actually go left,are the players following the play diagram...make sure the QB isnt doing a happy dance after being sacked..the correct team is penalized when defense goes off sides etc...they dont give a hoot about line backer 4-3 concepts and safety responsibilities etc in an in depth way

[ram29jackson]

Last point/question what is up with this whole Utopia vs TGT imaginary thing going on? (Not directed at you IOU) Why is this site consistently referred to as "failgate" over there and over here they are "the other site"?? If this site is such a "failgate" why do users from over there come over here to complain? I just really don't get it, but I will say its quite amusing helps my work day go by anyway.


yep, its pretty fascinating and funny LOL...wussy internet ,game liker and game hater, gangs...or something

LOL ...I have to bring up the smiley window to even use smileys all the time now, its getting annoying, i cant just click on them.....?

[Roy38]

I dont think they want major input from people they arent paying. they just want to be told when something isnt working as far as the really basic stuff...basic ,general, football,visual. like what they have testers for in the first place.

They just want to know ,..does third down visually come out to field as 3rd down..does the run play to left,actually go left,are the players following the play diagram...make sure the QB isnt doing a happy dance after being sacked..the correct team is penalized when defense goes off sides etc...they dont give a hoot about line backer 4-3 concepts and safety responsibilities etc in an in depth way

The last I understood, the people they've asked for input aren't paying either as their copies were free, so I would dispute that notion. Maybe you are referring to previously...

My question is why bring them into the loop in the first place if you're not going to use their strengths to improve your product? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure some of their suggestions have made it into the title in some way, shape, or form. However, sometimes the best route is being completely honest: "Our current engine isn't capable of doing that at this time, but we'd love to come back to this when we do have the capabilities." Right now, I think that's what the biggest controversy is. The lip-service we are getting from EA doesn't equate to what we are actually receiving.

[mnguy]

Last point/question what is up with this whole Utopia vs TGT imaginary thing going on? (Not directed at you IOU) Why is this site consistently referred to as "failgate" over there and over here they are "the other site"?? If this site is such a "failgate" why do users from over there come over here to complain? I just really don't get it, but I will say its quite amusing helps my work day go by anyway.
:D I'm a user of both sites, and have been for a while, and imo, it comes down to two very different viewpoints on interactions with EA. I don't think TGT has quite as many "hardcore" users (don't take that the wrong way, but i do see a lot more "i don't use custom playbooks, the graphics are really nice" users here. Not saying their not football fans, just not quite as serious about the game, which is probably a good thing:P.) but they also have a direct link to EA which they use by providing advice in a, let's say, less straightforward way then Utopia would present it. Utopia thinks that TGT is severely misusing their link to EA, probably making them a bit bitter. Ultimately, it's just two strong viewpoints clashing.

Utopia does have better smilies though.:)

[ram29jackson]

:D I'm a user of both sites, and have been for a while, and imo, it comes down to two very different viewpoints on interactions with EA. I don't think TGT has quite as many "hardcore" users (don't take that the wrong way, but i do see a lot more "i don't use custom playbooks, the graphics are really nice" users here. Not saying their not football fans, just not quite as serious about the game, which is probably a good thing:P.) but they also have a direct link to EA which they use by providing advice in a, let's say, less straightforward way then Utopia would present it. Utopia thinks that TGT is severely misusing their link to EA, probably making them a bit bitter. Ultimately, it's just two strong viewpoints clashing.

Utopia does have better smilies though.:)

I disagree, I think both sites have a majority that prefer playing a sim game as opposed to guys looking to run and chuck and use exploits etc. U- just thinks its cool to be crass and overbearing. i'm not a harcore football knowledge guy like Mr Longhorn( that is a compliment ) but i know when it doesnt look like realistic football. but yeah, I'll compliment the art,graphic guys for doing a good job.. i like helmets,create a team and the visual side of the game too

[I OU a Beatn]

:D If you say So IOU. I really don't have anything against either one personally. I will say they both do seemingly take a hell of a lot of time with game and have a good feel for the game, though one does seem like he enjoys getting his internet forum celebrity status ego stroked (that was a joke BTW), and has a pretty obvious bias towards EA, though I dont think it was always there. You post anything about the game he is here and on it, and probably more less in a negative manner. Is the game FUBAR probably, but not everyone is here to play the game in such a serious nature.


In fairness, I'm the same way. I could give you a laundry list of things that I hate about the game. A lot of those issues I'd list would be issues that have existed for years and years and years, and for some reason, have never been taken care of. I'll use the morphing picks as an example. It's been a problem since the PS2 days. I never, ever want to see a player come through another player. I don't care what the issue is, but the fact that it's been in the games for years is absolutely ridiculous. Improved collision > cannons.


What I don't understand about Rhombic and people of his elk, is I joined the other site back in 06 or 05 and he was writing 1 page rants about the game then, here we are in 12 and he is still bitching about the game, is it justified probably, does it make him seem like he doesn't have anything else better to do with his life .......absolutely. Though I haven't seen any 1 page rants in awhile, and onebacks frustration seemingly came more off of frustration than anything else. The main problem is you guys care entirely too damn much about a game. Honestly you guys can never talk about any other gamers...from WOW...to COD players, you guys are just as uptight about this game as they are about those.

I'm not uptight about it. It used to upset me that EA had the exclusive license and wasn't doing anything remotely worthwhile with it, and it still does to a point, but I definitely do not care too much about the game. I want a playable game that isn't loaded with glitches and glaring issues with the gameplay, which is exactly what we currently have and have had for a really long time. EA is a massive company. Continually putting out a game that is just barely improved over the previous version isn't and never will be acceptable.


Even you, why in the hell would you take valuable time out of your life to send them videos, if in your opinion they aren't going to fix it? Don't feed me that to make the game better BS either. Are you holding out hope? If a girl tells you she will blow you one day are you still going to be asking 6 years later? If you answered yes then continue on arguing futile points, if you wouldn't then let it go. I have seen you numerous times say that "the first thing you do is try to break the game" WHY?? What purpose in the world does that solve besides pissing yourself off. Man you need another hobby if that is fun to you.

I've never sent them videos of anything. I'm not putting in the effort of creating a video for something that is going to fall on deaf ears. Just like the video I made of the game where my opponent had 12 fumbles. I didn't send it to them. If I did, I would've got some remark like "make sure you cover up the ball" or some dumb shit like that. I have to :D at you saying "WHY?" As if it's hard to break the game when EA hasn't improved it in years. I can still run the same exact shit I have for years because EA doesn't know how to correctly program the AI without there being times where they will get completely fucked up. Watch the goon kick sometime and tell me it should be in the game.


I come to this site to just talk about the game share strategies, etc. I am sure its a nice number of us that are here for that same reason, but instead we we get cluster fucked by the entire EA bashing, EA sucks crowd. Let's just face facts, this game will never been anything to a nice number of you guys especially if EA name is attached to it. In order for the game to go anywhere IMO they would have to scrap the entire engine which will not happen on a one year cycle, so we are back to square one with basically patching problems.

It has nothing to do with EA being attached to it. If they create a game that works the way it should, I'll be first in line to congratulate them. I've said numerous times this year that the defense was much improved. However, there is way too many things that are wrong. The fact they KNEW a major ass glitch like the goon kick and the disconnection glitch were there last year and were sent instructions on how to do them and STILL ignored it and allowed them to be ported over to NCAA '12 really piss me off. That's HORRIBLE developing.


Last point/question what is up with this whole Utopia vs TGT imaginary thing going on? (Not directed at you IOU) Why is this site consistently referred to as "failgate" over there and over here they are "the other site"?? If this site is such a "failgate" why do users from over there come over here to complain? I just really don't get it, but I will say its quite amusing helps my work day go by anyway.

I don't pay any attention to it nor do I engage in any of it so I truly don't know.

[Oneback]

I should chime in before things get too twisted. In all honesty I probably have the least room to say EA hasn’t read and implemented my feedback as there are aspects of the improved run blocking that came from notes I brought them and I do have 10 passing plays in the game that I gave them. My biggest frustrations right now center around the general state of the game from release to now due to all the bugs and the fact that after 25 years of making a football game there are still core fundamental parts of the game the current engine just cannot handle: assignment based blocking, defensive alignment and defensive AI that is based upon the fundamental rules of defense instead of chase ball. Notice I have nothing in there about offensive/defensive line interaction, CPU play, a realistic audible system, etc. This is because until the core fundamentals are taken care of the next tier cannot be taken care of either. You’re probably saying right now isn’t line interaction a core fundamental? Yes it is, however until you can get the defense to line up correctly, play the correct way and have assignment based blocking line interaction cannot improve.

Now to circle back to the comment that I believe EA doesn’t listen, that’s not correct. They do listen, however in the end they are going to do things the way they want to do things, that’s how it’s always been up to this point. Now they do listen to our feedback. We’ve gotten features implemented based upon that feedback, we can all argue about the functionality of said features however. Honestly, it’s EA’s choice on how they do things; they are the ones spending the money. Do I hope/wish they would focus on the fundamentals and little things that could take this game to the levels of NBA 2K and MLB in the fans eyes, yes! I’ve been told they are growing the gameplay team, time will tell what impact that has.

I’ve got a laundry list of ideas and improvements that could be made to this game to make it more realistic, user friendly and balanced both against human and CPU opponents, however until the core fundamentals are taken care of there’s no real point in bringing up these other things that will get lost in the shuffle.

I do wish to stay apart of the community day program but I would like to know EA’s future plans for improving the game engine, because like others if the time and effort I spend giving feedback have no hopes of making meaningful changes then the effort will far outweigh the result and that’s not a position I want to be in.

[souljahbill]

The next generation of consoles are probably 3 years away. I know updated graphics will be what makes most people pee in their pants but EA should use the extra power of the systems for A.I. purposes instead of "MOAR GRAFIX!!!!111" Maybe then we can see the changes and features we REALLY want to see as its probably not as possible as we think it is this generation. Hopefully whatever engine they use next console cycle is more physics based then animation based.


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[Oneback]

The next generation of consoles are probably 3 years away. I know updated graphics will be what makes most people pee in their pants but EA should use the extra power of the systems for A.I. purposes instead of "MOAR GRAFIX!!!!111" Maybe then we can see the changes and features we REALLY want to see as its probably not as possible as we think it is this generation. Hopefully whatever engine they use next console cycle is more physics based then animation based.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Couple things here...look at the other sports games that are successful and held in high regard: NBA 2K and MLB, there isn't a lot of fluff with those games, you don't see those publishers putting a big emphasis on graphics as back of the box features. Then you look under EA's own umbrella and you see FIFA and NHL getting new physics engines implemented this year. If it were up to me I would strip away all the fluff, implement the FIFA and NHL physics engine, and focus on fundamentals. You'd obviously have to keep/improve online and dynasty modes but outside of that every last resource should be focused on improving the core fundamentals of the game. Leave the graphics where they are, they are more than adequate at this point. Once the gameplay is where it should be now 25 years into this process you can then focus on everything else.

[Deuce]

I like to keep things simple and what really matters to me... is the game better with the GC's and CD guys? The answer, without a doubt, is YES.

As far as EA motives...I'm sure their motives are 100% geared towards EA. They basically are getting 'free' consultants. If I was EA I would do the same thing. And if I was the type of person to dissect a football game I would love re opportunity to be a game changer or go to a community event. Its mutally beneficial. Period. People who have a problem with that need to mind there own f'ing business or find a new site.

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[JBHuskers]

I like to keep things simple and what really matters to me is the game better with GC'd CD guys? The answer, without a doubt, is YES.


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And you say this as your 666th post? :D

[Deuce]

And you say this as your 666th post? :D

Damn phone! I swear I'm not that incoherent. Maybe after a few martinis later tonight. ;)


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[ram29jackson]

Couple things here...look at the other sports games that are successful and held in high regard: NBA 2K and MLB, there isn't a lot of fluff with those games, you don't see those publishers putting a big emphasis on graphics as back of the box features. Then you look under EA's own umbrella and you see FIFA and NHL getting new physics engines implemented this year. If it were up to me I would strip away all the fluff, implement the FIFA and NHL physics engine, and focus on fundamentals. You'd obviously have to keep/improve online and dynasty modes but outside of that every last resource should be focused on improving the core fundamentals of the game. Leave the graphics where they are, they are more than adequate at this point. Once the gameplay is where it should be now 25 years into this process you can then focus on everything else.

I kind of disagree..there is alot of fluff in NBA and MLB but they do it right and well along with decent core gameplay..but yeah, they dont brag about cool looking grass or something. Madden doesnt have cool looking grass and the visuals are still stunning

[souljahbill]

Couple things here...look at the other sports games that are successful and held in high regard: NBA 2K and MLB, there isn't a lot of fluff with those games, you don't see those publishers putting a big emphasis on graphics as back of the box features. Then you look under EA's own umbrella and you see FIFA and NHL getting new physics engines implemented this year. If it were up to me I would strip away all the fluff, implement the FIFA and NHL physics engine, and focus on fundamentals. You'd obviously have to keep/improve online and dynasty modes but outside of that every last resource should be focused on improving the core fundamentals of the game. Leave the graphics where they are, they are more than adequate at this point. Once the gameplay is where it should be now 25 years into this process you can then focus on everything else.

To be fair, football HAS to be the absolute hardest mainstream sport to program correctly. To have 22 players think and react like a real person would/should seems a lot to expect, no matter how many people are on the gameplay team. Nothing wrong with shooting for the moon and asking for nothing but the absolute best but realistically, with the time and budget crunch, only so much can done.


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[ram29jackson]

To be fair, football HAS to be the absolute hardest mainstream sport to program correctly. To have 22 players think and react like a real person would/should seems a lot to expect, no matter how many people are on the gameplay team. Nothing wrong with shooting for the moon and asking for nothing but the absolute best but realistically, with the time and budget crunch, only so much can done.


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I would say ,Basketball is harder, players have to keep moving..football plays are shorter and a simple diagram is followed- pass routes etc

[Deuce]

To be fair, football HAS to be the absolute hardest mainstream sport to program correctly. To have 22 players think and react like a real person would/should seems a lot to expect, no matter how many people are on the gameplay team. Nothing wrong with shooting for the moon and asking for nothing but the absolute best but realistically, with the time and budget crunch, only so much can done.


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:+1:


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[JeffHCross]

Again, it was an oversight on my part. I immediately saw this website's owner and co-founders names, so I directed my attention towards them. Also, as you pointed out earlier, I didn't ask for your response. To that end, I didn't ask Paakaa either, but he decided to step in for some quality dialogue while you chose to beat your chest. Now, had you chosen the path to communicate, we'd be having a different conversation.Again, I believed I was left out for a reason. A simple miscommunication, that's all.

[Oneback]

To be fair, football HAS to be the absolute hardest mainstream sport to program correctly. To have 22 players think and react like a real person would/should seems a lot to expect, no matter how many people are on the gameplay team. Nothing wrong with shooting for the moon and asking for nothing but the absolute best but realistically, with the time and budget crunch, only so much can done.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

While football does have 22 players each of those players have a set of highly detailed rules on each play.

Let's go over the rules for a WR running a simple 7-route (Corner) against a 3-deep zone defense for example:

- Burst off the line of scrimmage using an inside-seam release.
- On your fourth step, plant your inside foot at a 45-degree angle parallel to the sideline and snap your head and hips upfield into a vertical stem.
- Accelerate to threaten deep.
- At eight yards, break to the post with a pressure step.
- It is important to break at eight yards to the post (instead of 12 yards) so that you don't run into the defensive back when you break to the corner. If you were to break to the post at 12 yards, a very good chance exists that you will run into the defensive back when he comes out of his corner break because the cushion has been broken down.
- On your third stride, use a pressure step (your inside foot) and break to the corner as you snap your head to the quarterback and accelerate out of your break.
- If a defender is on top of you at the break flatten out to the sideline, if the defender is even accelerate to the corner.

Pretty detailed, yes?

I'd be glad to go over all the rules for aligning a defense, a DT facing a double-team or the technique a center need to play with when the backside guard is pulling across the formation and the down lineman is in a 3-tech. The point being is that everything in football is assignment based, coaches grade and decide who plays based upon assignments.

If there is one thing I know about programming is that everything is rules based (read assignment) so don't give me there are 22 players on the field argument.

[JeffHCross]

Just because it's rules based doesn't mean it's simple to program, though. And 22 players (especially the defensive side of the ball) is considerably harder to program than a lot of game AI, even other sports games.

[ram29jackson]

Again, I believed I was left out for a reason. A simple miscommunication, that's all.

and you were just communicating a humorous one liner and he has to disect it a little too seriously LOL come on Roy, jeff is just having fun. he did it for JBs n Gschwendts eyes, not for yours LOL

...Patriots look like they are winning another one, dangit....

[Oneback]

I understand that it may not be simple to program and that it may take time...the game has been in production for 25 years and EA is supposedly the leader of the industry, they should be able to hire the best and the brightest, they've both had time and should have the resources available to get the job done.

The problem is a lack of focus on these little details.

[Roy38]

Couple things here...look at the other sports games that are successful and held in high regard: NBA 2K and MLB, there isn't a lot of fluff with those games, you don't see those publishers putting a big emphasis on graphics as back of the box features. Then you look under EA's own umbrella and you see FIFA and NHL getting new physics engines implemented this year. If it were up to me I would strip away all the fluff, implement the FIFA and NHL physics engine, and focus on fundamentals. You'd obviously have to keep/improve online and dynasty modes but outside of that every last resource should be focused on improving the core fundamentals of the game. Leave the graphics where they are, they are more than adequate at this point. Once the gameplay is where it should be now 25 years into this process you can then focus on everything else.

My sentiments exactly.

Since Oneback brought up FIFA and NHL getting new physics engines, what happened to the physics upgrades from NCAA '11? I seem remember this being touted as the future of the franchise. The only thing that seems to remain from that title is player acceleration. Have you noticed it as well?

[ram29jackson]

I understand that it may not be simple to program and that it may take time...the game has been in production for 25 years and EA is supposedly the leader of the industry, they should be able to hire the best and the brightest, they've both had time and should have the resources available to get the job done.

The problem is a lack of focus on these little details.


these guys earned their jobs through college etc. and I wont say they dont know what they are doing.

but I question what and how they do it when I can look at ESPN 2k5, and PES/winning 11 on old gen and 2k basketball on old gen and how well they made the sports on field/play details compared to anything from EA football games. Those other games took larger jumps in much shorter times...why ..why damnit..why ? cry/cry/cry

[Roy38]

and you were just communicating a humorous one liner and he has to disect it a little too seriously LOL come on Roy, jeff is just having fun. he did it for JBs n Gschwendts eyes, not for yours LOL

...Patriots look like they are winning another one, dangit....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHh0rf0ojEc&NR=1

[Deuce]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHh0rf0ojEc&NR=1

That's pretty funny. :D


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[JeffHCross]

Since Oneback brought up FIFA and NHL getting new physics engines, what happened to the physics upgrades from NCAA '11? I seem remember this being touted as the future of the franchise. The only thing that seems to remain from that title is player acceleration. Have you noticed it as well?I recall Locomotion and gang tackling from NCAA 11. Both are still there. Gang tackling's actually been expanded upon. What are you thinking of that has disappeared?

[ram29jackson]

rule number 1 = always test embedding first

[bdoughty]

While football does have 22 players each of those players have a set of highly detailed rules on each play.

Let's go over the rules for a WR running a simple 7-route (Corner) against a 3-deep zone defense for example:

- Burst off the line of scrimmage using an inside-seam release.
- On your fourth step, plant your inside foot at a 45-degree angle parallel to the sideline and snap your head and hips upfield into a vertical stem.
- Accelerate to threaten deep.
- At eight yards, break to the post with a pressure step.
- It is important to break at eight yards to the post (instead of 12 yards) so that you don't run into the defensive back when you break to the corner. If you were to break to the post at 12 yards, a very good chance exists that you will run into the defensive back when he comes out of his corner break because the cushion has been broken down.
- On your third stride, use a pressure step (your inside foot) and break to the corner as you snap your head to the quarterback and accelerate out of your break.
- If a defender is on top of you at the break flatten out to the sideline, if the defender is even accelerate to the corner.

Pretty detailed, yes?

I'd be glad to go over all the rules for aligning a defense, a DT facing a double-team or the technique a center need to play with when the backside guard is pulling across the formation and the down lineman is in a 3-tech. The point being is that everything in football is assignment based, coaches grade and decide who plays based upon assignments.

If there is one thing I know about programming is that everything is rules based (read assignment) so don't give me there are 22 players on the field argument.


In a coaches wet dream would a player actually follow those rules on every play. You are creating perfect scenarios. Let's add to this, assuming you want a pure simulation of the game. Does a WR make perfect cuts in real life? Do defensive players blow assignements? Does a lineman make every block? There is so much more to making AI realistic then simply creating a set of rules.

I just think you are oversimplifying the logic used in the AI. Anyone can pick up a books on how football is coached and drawn up but since executing it in real life is not an exact science, trying to program it is even more challenging. Not to mention trying to balance a game that is enjoyable for hardcore football guys and the casual players.

[morsdraconis]

In a coaches wet dream would a player actually follow those rules on every play. You are creating perfect scenarios. Let's add to this, assuming you want a pure simulation of the game. Does a WR make perfect cuts in real life? Do defensive players blow assignements? Does a lineman make every block? There is so much more to making AI realistic then simply creating a set of rules.

I just think you are oversimplifying the logic used in the AI. Anyone can pick up a books on how football is coached and drawn up but since executing it in real life is not an exact science, trying to program it is even more challenging. Not to mention trying to balance a game that is enjoyable for hardcore football guys and the casual players.

:+1:

A play is NEVER ran PERFECTLY. It's impossible for EVERY player to do their assignment PERFECTLY. So, to do what is even outlined by oneback above, you'd have to add probably another 3 sets of scenarios for EACH point of the breakdown of that WR's route based on if that receiver fucked up his route somewhere along the way, got pressed at the line of scrimmage, where the first down marker is, whether or not he's the hot receiver, along with whether or not he reads the coverages correctly and so on. All of that, for ONE player out of 22.

I can guarantee you that the breakdown for a defensive player's assignment in zone coverage is even more complicated and has even more variables to work out.

I mean, we're talking about a game that doesn't even have blown assignments programmed into the game. Blown assignments don't exist, at all, in NCAA or Madden football. Getting beat because of pure speed/better route running or superior playcalling/blocking abilities/running abilities are the only variables that can happen in either football game. What you people are asking for would be something that would take YEARS to even come close to being even 50% of what you want. And that's just trying to build the fundamentals of football as a base. There's no possible way ANY company could come up with something THAT complex in a time frame that requires yearly releases or even bi-yearly releases. I don't care how many people they have working on it and how much time is spent with actual coaches and players. There's no possible way something THAT complex could be done without many years worth of time and research being spent on it. There's a reason a football game hasn't come out that's come anywhere close to replicating real football and it's not because of laziness, bad programming, or anything like that.

[bdoughty]

I understand that it may not be simple to program and that it may take time...the game has been in production for 25 years and EA is supposedly the leader of the industry, they should be able to hire the best and the brightest, they've both had time and should have the resources available to get the job done.

The problem is a lack of focus on these little details.

First of all I am in no way attacking the guys who work at EA Sports but traditional sports games are not exactly the hotbed for your best and brightest (both in programming and the artistic side). You have yearly updates, creativity in sports games is limited due to the constraints of making such a game and the budgets. Most of your top programmers tend to lean themselves toward projects that allow them to be more creative. Same goes with the artists.

Ponder this. When was the last time you saw a sports game win anyone's overall Game of the Year?

[Oneback]

You're right, the route is not run the same way all the time, there are certain ways to run this route against bump, off-man however variations from the core set of rules is all determined by player ability. Not all receivers run correct precise routes, this can be handled by attribute ratings. Players with low route running skills will round off their routes, low awareness will cause the receiver to not make their breaks at the correct depth all the time or will not break off their route correctly (flatten their route to the sideline when a defender is over the top of them).

Defenders blowing assignments would be tied to awareness, linemen making blocks would be largely dependent on the ratings differential between them and the defender, I sent a pretty lengthy document to EA on how this would work.

The fact remains the rules/assignments are what drives decisions made on a football field, very little in football is ad lib.

[bdoughty]

Blown assignments don't exist, at all, in NCAA or Madden football.

Exactly and the closest thing we have right now is the QB making a poor throw or a player slipping in the rain or snow. Even that has to be tough to program simply based on all the % involved.

Can you imagine implementing a realistic AI that implements players missing assignments or running a wrong route. It is far more than just a simple attribute. A WR running the wrong route or wrong yardage would involve a % as to when he would run one during a game, what incorrect route or yardage they would go and then factor in what they will do once the route is run incorrectly. Now go and figure out how to program in a SS playing a deep zone when he is supposed to be in man to man.

Now after all that calculating figure out what % of gamers would actually want this level of realism an not end up throwing their controller into the TV.

Forget 22 players, lets concentrate on 2. Tennis is a pretty simple game, two players a few lines a net, a couple racquets and a ball. Simple enough, pong seemed really easy to make. You can go the Virtua Tennis route and limit the amount of fault/unforced errors in the game, easing the frustration for the casual guys. Then you have a tennis game like Top Spin that tries to be more of simulation of the sports. More unforced errors but the problem is how do you create such realism and still try to sell enough units to make a profit. They have gone a few different routes over the years with risk shots and then removed those this year and made positioning and timing of the swing a bigger factor in creating these unforced errors. It is still nowhere what you would see in a real tennis match but gives you a bit more realism just in much smaller doses. Casual users just do not want a bunch of balls hitting the net and double faults. It is a very tricky thing to do, creating a more realistic game and trying to keep a large audience.

Again, I just think some people make programing a game far easier than it really is.

[Oneback]

Here is the document I sent to EA on line interaction:


The first step is to fix the blocking schemes both rushing and passing. This was my core idea behind NCAA Playbook and in writing these articles I’ve been trying to come up with a plan to use the existing game engine to improve the offensive and defensive interactions.

As mentioned the blocking scheme is paramount, next however the defensive reaction to the different types of blocks utilized in the blocking scheme must be addressed and from what I see most of the fundamentals are there to make this work.

The great thing about defensive football is every player has a rule based upon his position in the defensive scheme, how well that player plays his position is largely dependent on his awareness within that scheme.

For example, a defensive lineman fires off the ball stepping first with his gap side foot and recognizes the offensive lineman executing a reach block, he must now widen with his second step, fighting to maintain outside leverage, diagnose the play, disengage from the blocker and pursue the ball carrier.

This scenario would play out in the game first by the offensive lineman being assigned the reach block in the plays creation, now at the snap of the ball the offensive lineman would first take a lateral step then with his second step attack the outer half of the defensive player. How quickly he would be able take these two steps would be dependent on his run block footwork rating (RBF) which already exists in the game.

At the same time the defensive lineman will step with his gap side foot, recognize the reach block then widen with his second step as I mentioned above. Here the awareness rating would come into play when the defensive lineman must recognize the type of block being executed. The higher his awareness the quicker the player would take his complementary step. Conversely, the lower his rating the easier time the offensive lineman would have of initially winning the block. In this case the offensive player would be able to gain outside leverage.

At this point the players now collide, with each player trying to create movement. Here the hit power rating would come into play. The player with the higher hit power rating would gain an advantage in creating movement and fitting into the block or stunning the blocker, possibly allowing the offensive player to drive the defender out of the hole or the defensive player quickly disengaging the blocker. If hit power is equal there would be an initial stalemate with little movement. Here I would like to see the additions to the tackling engine added here where weight, momentum and angle are factored in when creating the initial movement or pop.

Now that initial movement has been created there will be a couple factors that determine the ultimate winner of the block. First the initial winner of the block must be factored in, if the offensive lineman was able to reach the outside shoulder of the defender or if the defender was able to maintain outside leverage they must be given an advantage. Next, the winner of the second part of the block must be factored in, if the offensive player had the higher hit power and was able to fit into the block even after losing the footwork battle he should now have the advantage as he will be in position drive the player out of the hole. Conversely, if the defensive player loses the initial footwork battle but has a higher hit power rating, he is able to stun the blocker and will now have the advantage in regaining his gap responsibility.

Now this is where player strength will come in, if the offensive player has been able to fit into the block by having the higher hit power rating he will now have a weighted advantage over the defensive player and if he has a higher strength rating than the defensive player he will now be able to create movement. Also, due to the offensive player having a weighted advantage over the defensive player he could potentially have a lower strength rating than the defensive player and still create movement. The same scenario would play out on the defensive side, if the defender was able to maintain outside leverage and stun the blocker due to having the higher hit power rating he is now able to lock out the blocker and maintain his gap responsibility. Even if the offensive blocker has the advantage by being able to fit into the block this does not mean the defender has lost the battle. If the defender has a higher strength rating than the offensive lineman and is able to overcome the offensive lineman’s advantage as a result he can now lock the blocker out and take the advantage.

Now that we have a winner on the block the play is still not over and the defender is still going to try and disengage from the blocker. The defense is at a disadvantage in that it does not know where the ball is going and here and must diagnose the play before breaking the block and pursuing the football. This is where the defender’s play recognition rating comes into play. The higher the play recognition the quicker the defender is able to move to the next step which is breaking the block, the lower the rating the longer he will be held up on the block attempting to diagnose the play and the longer the blocker would have a chance to refit and gain control of the blocker. This would entail adding a block refit rating or just simply leaving the defender locked up on the blocker until he is able to diagnose the play. If the defender is at a disadvantage at this point he will attempt to regain his gap responsibility as he will need to accomplish this task before he can diagnose the play.

The defender is now ready to either break the block or regain his gap responsibility. I would like to see ratings assigned to each of the different types of moves a defender can use to break a block or use during a pass rush as well as the players tendency to use each of them, but this is about utilizing the ratings already in place. The defenders break block rating will be the key, if the defender is in control of the blocker he will require a much lower break block rating to be able to disengage, however if the offensive player has the advantage the defender would need a higher break block rating to fight back through the blocker and regain control of his gap responsibility. Additionally, if the defender is unable to either break the block or regain gap responsibility but the weighted score for each player is within a certain amount of each other the defender would have the ability to lunge after the ball carrier and possibly get a tackle.

At this point there are three possibly outcomes: the defender has defeated the blocker and now will utilize his pursuit rating to pursue the ball carrier, the defender and blocker have a stalemate where neither wins but the defender still has the potential to stick an arm out and possibly make a tackle, or the blocker wins and is able to control the defender.

This would require animations for each of the block types and complementary defensive reactions and new code to handle the weighted score from each step of the block to determine the eventual winner. In the end however you would have a blocking interaction system that would be true to life and provide a much better experience for the gamer.

[Oneback]

Again, I just think some people make programing a game far easier than it really is.

Never said it was going to be easy. But, it is not impossible.

[bdoughty]

Defenders blowing assignments would be tied to awareness, linemen making blocks would be largely dependent on the ratings differential between them and the defender, I sent a pretty lengthy document to EA on how this would work.

.

Have you ever coded a game of any type? The only reason I mention this is that you are feeding information on how things are done properly but that is the easy part. Taking that information and coding it into a game is a whole different ball game. You are simplifying things by tying them to base attributes. There are layers of code within those attributes that would have to be defined to make additional changes.

It is not as simple as if a WR have a 80 AWR then he will run a incorrect route 1 out of 50 times (and even there you have to be careful with your % to ensure happiness amongst all your customers or create more code by adding new sliders). You have to define what all happens when that one out of fifty times occurs. There has to be code to to tell the player what to do in those instances and even that could be affected other attributes and ratings. The more variables you add within the game the more of a consoles memory you start eating into. You can make the smartest football game in the world that runs as realistic as tonight's game but if a console can't handle it... Even with the best and the brightest working on that game. That is why these companies have people coding new things for next gen systems. Things that are simply not feasible on this gen due to memory and CPU restraints.

More variables for you to ponder over as to why the games sometimes seem to not advance to your liking, as fast as you wish it would.

[Roy38]

rule number 1 = always test embedding first

I thought rule #1 was to check my spelling?

Anyway, there is a work around for the embedding. You simply hit the play button, followed by clicking the link "Watch on YouTube". Hey, you play NCAA '12 so aren't you used to working around the small inconveniences?

[bdoughty]

Never said it was going to be easy. But, it is not impossible.

Of course it isn't and it is great to see people invested in the game and taking personal time trying to make the game we love better. I just think you need to understand the limitation that exists. The limitations of the resources working on the game. The limitations of how much coding you can put into the game. Not from a game size aspect, although it exists on the 360 Disc but more on the hardware end (memory/CPU usage).

[morsdraconis]

Have you ever coded a game of any type? The only reason I mention this is that you are feeding information on how things are done properly but that is the easy part. Taking that information and coding it into a game is a whole different ball game. You are simplifying things by tying them to base attributes. There are layers of code within those attributes that would have to be defined to make additional

It is not as simple as if a WR have a 80 AWR then he will run a incorrect route 1 out of 50 times (and even there you have to be careful with your % to ensure happiness amongst all your customers or create more code by adding new sliders). You have to define what all happens when that one out of fifty times occurs. There has to be code to to tell the player what to do in those instances and even that could be affected other attributes and ratings. The more variables you add within the game the more of a consoles memory you start eating into. You can make the smartest football game in the world that runs as realistic as tonight's game but if a console can't handle it... Even with the best and the brightest working on that game. That is why these companies have people coding new things for next gen systems. Things that are simply not feasible on this gen due to memory and CPU restraints.

More variables for you to ponder over as to why the games sometimes seem to not advance to your liking, as fast as you wish it would.

Couldn't have said it better myself, and I have just a rudimentary knowledge of programming languages. The amount of variables in the game now must be in the hundreds of thousands (EA programmers have specifically said before that looking up specific parts of how things work - say, for example, how run blocking footwork/strength work compared to how just the run blocking attribute itself works - are so deeply imbedded in the code, that, some of them, are basically impossible to tell truly what all they effect - This from people that actually PROGRAM THE GAME and have the source code in front of them on a daily basis) with all the different things that they've added. And, yet, all of that absolutely pales in comparison to what is being detailed so easily here.

Again, I say, the amount of work needed to even reach 50% of what is being asked here would take several game cycles to come to fruition. Several game cycles of non-stop working on just it and nothing else. No company has that kind of resources to set aside an entire team to work on something that could take 5 years to code without bringing in some type of money on it. Especially in a market climate where it's highly unlikely that this generation of consoles would still be the best available in that time period, only causing the amount of time spent on the project to be extended as they adapt it for the new tech available.

[bdoughty]

My knowledge of programming is limited these days to html and C++. I was old school programming with RPG II (not a game mind you actual code we used for our IBM System/36 setup).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG_II#Sample_Code

:fp: I am so old.

[Oneback]

Have you ever coded a game of any type? The only reason I mention this is that you are feeding information on how things are done properly but that is the easy part. Taking that information and coding it into a game is a whole different ball game. You are simplifying things by tying them to base attributes. There are layers of code within those attributes that would have to be defined to make additional changes.

It is not as simple as if a WR have a 80 AWR then he will run a incorrect route 1 out of 50 times (and even there you have to be careful with your % to ensure happiness amongst all your customers or create more code by adding new sliders). You have to define what all happens when that one out of fifty times occurs. There has to be code to to tell the player what to do in those instances and even that could be affected other attributes and ratings. The more variables you add within the game the more of a consoles memory you start eating into. You can make the smartest football game in the world that runs as realistic as tonight's game but if a console can't handle it... Even with the best and the brightest working on that game. That is why these companies have people coding new things for next gen systems. Things that are simply not feasible on this gen due to memory and CPU restraints.

More variables for you to ponder over as to why the games sometimes seem to not advance to your liking, as fast as you wish it would.

Again, I completely agree it's not an easy undertaking, just because things aren't easy doesn't mean we shouldn't do them. I understand there is programming needed for variables and variations, again there will have to be thought put into this, no one is saying otherwise.

I'm not even saying they will be able to do it all in one year, but you must start somewhere. Start by putting real assignment football in, I don't even care if everyone does everything right assignment wise on every play with no blown assignments. The ratings system would then take over to create wins and losses. The next year you work on variables and variations and so on and so forth. What you end up with is a rock solid foundation that can be built upon instead of what we have now.

[bdoughty]

Only time will tell. I was one of those that wished they took last gens games (PS2/Xbox) prettied them up for the 360 and went from there. At the very least we would have all the features from last gen and the concentration could be on improving the AI. Pretty much what 2Ksports did with NBA 2K and my beloved College Hoops. :( That said I do not know why this route was taken but not much we can do about it now.

[Oneback]

Couldn't have said it better myself, and I have just a rudimentary knowledge of programming languages. The amount of variables in the game now must be in the hundreds of thousands (EA programmers have specifically said before that looking up specific parts of how things work - say, for example, how run blocking footwork/strength work compared to how just the run blocking attribute itself works - are so deeply imbedded in the code, that, some of them, are basically impossible to tell truly what all they effect - This from people that actually PROGRAM THE GAME and have the source code in front of them on a daily basis) with all the different things that they've added. And, yet, all of that absolutely pales in comparison to what is being detailed so easily here.

Again, I say, the amount of work needed to even reach 50% of what is being asked here would take several game cycles to come to fruition. Several game cycles of non-stop working on just it and nothing else. No company has that kind of resources to set aside an entire team to work on something that could take 5 years to code without bringing in some type of money on it. Especially in a market climate where it's highly unlikely that this generation of consoles would still be the best available in that time period, only causing the amount of time spent on the project to be extended as they adapt it for the new tech available.

So we should give them a pass, pat them on the back and say well at least you tried here's some milk and cookies to make you feel better?

Right now they can't get the defense to lineup correctly even half the time.

Listen I am not faulting to programmers I'm sure they work their tail off, but there needs to be a focus by the leadership team to improve gameplay.

[bdoughty]

Right now they can't get the defense to lineup correctly even half the time.


Oh for cripes sake. When you make such asinine statements you lose all credibility with me. There should be a forum law that exaggerators, on game forums, should be forced to type out 10 things they like about a game after such nonsense.

[Oneback]

Oh for cripes sake. When you make such asinine statements you lose all credibility with me. There should be a forum law that exaggerators, on game forums, should be forced to type out 10 things they like about a game after such nonsense.

Ever run the 4-2-5 and try to man align against trips? This has been a problem with the game for years? Why in nickle doesn't the slot corner align on the slot receiver without you having to flip the play? Why can't I call an under front and play an under front without having to flip the play most of the time to align correctly?

Nonsense, really? I'm apart of the community day program and the EA devs will admit there are problems with defensive alignment. One of their devs asked me for a document on the subject and the issue came up several times since January.

[Roy38]

Ok so I have been EXTREMELY busy lately and have not played any games in weeks so I cannot speak with first hand knowledge of the issues introduced by the 2nd patch. That being said, I would like to address some of the other things being discussed about the community day attendees and what not. Please note that I do not speak for anyone but myself, and I am not addressing these remarks to anyone specific but rather the community as a whole.

I am as disappointed as anyone regarding all of the issues and miscues that have plagued this release. Although I have not experienced some of the issues that others have had (and honest to god, none were experienced before the release of the first patch) the ones I have experienced are more frustrating than words can describe. The continued issues with the patches also, boggle my mind.

Now, as to the perception that I am nothing more than a bought and paid for mouth piece for EA… If I ever feel that EA’s intention in bringing me to the community events was anything other than providing valuable feedback to help improve this game dramatically I would not participate. While I do not refute that they are taking care of expenses in my travel, etc as has been discussed I will tell you that I have made, what for me is a serious sacrifice to take part in these events. This year I was granted 11 vacation days from work, I used 8 of those days on these events. As a result my yearly hunting trip with my dad & grandfather is being skipped, as is my yearly vacation with my constantly busy med-school student fiancé, not to mention the time spent picking little things apart rather than playing the game for enjoyment. I take that commitment on my part very seriously as has EA, and while I don’t expect any sympathy, I will not take anyone seriously who wants to question my commitment & integrity when dealing with EA and the community.

Having gotten all of that out of the way, I think there are several things at work here that need to be considered by the masses. When providing feedback & interacting with the DEVS I have NEVER felt like my feedback was not appreciated and examined. Now I would be lying if I said that I have been completely satisfied with the way my feedback has been incorporated. Also, as I said in other posts, I sometimes wonder how much freedom the devs actually have to incorporate my feedback on some of the larger issues especially and that is something I would like to clarify more before my continued participation. Believe me when I say that I will be speaking with EA to be sure that my time and energy spent is worth it, if I feel that I am banging my head against a brick wall I will not continue to do so. I cannot speak for others in the past or present who feel that their time was wasted. Personally, I can understand why a great deal of my feedback was NOT incorporated this year. I suggested and recommended drastic changes that addressed CORE gameplay issues and therefore are probably NOT going to be able to be dramatically addressed mid dev cycle. My hope is that in making decisions for future titles that these issues and suggestions are incorporated into the decision process as to what will be addressed in the upcoming title and in future releases. If I ever feel that there is no intent for that to be the case, I will not continue to participate. I HAVE NOT participated in the events before this year so I can only base my opinion on my own experiences here. Sorry this got so long-winded.

First, I didn't want to leave you hanging since you posted this. Again, I appreciate the response.

To be clear, I don't have an agenda towards any person involved with these programs or events. Again, I think the concept can be a great idea if used in the fashion it was intended for. However, I have doubts concerning EA's involvement in the program, simple as that.

I notice you guys continue to point out that its a hardship to take time away from work, either by a paid or unpaid leave of absence, to be a part of this program or events. If it's so inconvenient, why go? To me, this goes beyond wanting to improve the game - especially when you consider you aren't receiving any allowances or benefits from EA other than the ones everyone has provided. In essence, why put so much time and effort into something that's not even yours, especially when you don't have the convenient resources to do it?

[Roy38]

Ever run the 4-2-5 and try to man align against trips? This has been a problem with the game for years? Why in nickle doesn't the slot corner align on the slot receiver without you having to flip the play? Why can't I call an under front and play an under front without having to flip the play most of the time to align correctly?

Nonsense, really? I'm apart of the community day program and the EA devs will admit there are problems with defensive alignment. One of their devs asked me for a document on the subject and the issue came up several times since January.

You know, at Operation Sports, you'd be gone by now. For that matter, I'd been gone by post #1.:D

[Oneback]

First, I didn't want to leave you hanging since you posted this. Again, I appreciate the response.

To be clear, I don't have an agenda towards any person involved with these programs or events. Again, I think the concept can be a great idea if used in the fashion it was intended for. However, I have doubts concerning EA's involvement in the program, simple as that.

I notice you guys continue to point out that its a hardship to take time away from work, either by a paid or unpaid leave of absence, to be a part of this program or events. If it's so inconvenient, why go? To me, this goes beyond wanting to improve the game - especially when you consider you aren't receiving any allowances or benefits from EA other than the ones everyone has provided. In essence, why put so much time and effort into something that's not even yours, especially when you don't have the convenient resources to do it?

Why did MLK fight for Civil Rights? Why did Ghandi fight for independence?

We want to help make the game better, just as with anything there is always a sacrifice. If I want to pay my bills I must sacrifice my free time and go to work, I've been apart of the NCAA community for eight years now and have contributed to a lot of people gaining a better understanding of the game, I've now focused some of that energy to helping make the game better and hopefully bring a better game to the community.

[morsdraconis]

My knowledge of programming is limited these days to html and C++. I was old school programming with RPG II (not a game mind you actual code we used for our IBM System/36 setup).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG_II#Sample_Code

:fp: I am so old.

Can't say I remember that one. :D

Dos is probably as far back as I go. Don't know very much of it, but I very much remember it (probably one of the few my age to know and remember it). I tried to learn C++, but I just can't handle all the complicated steps to do something as simple as say Hello World, much less put out something as complicated as a video game. ;)

[bdoughty]

Ever run the 4-2-5 and try to man align against trips? This has been a problem with the game for years? Why in nickle doesn't the slot corner align on the slot receiver without you having to flip the play? Why can't I call an under front and play an under front without having to flip the play most of the time to align correctly?


Half the time is not just a few formations and audibles. That is why I used the term, exaggerate.


Why did MLK fight for Civil Rights? Why did Ghandi fight for independence?


http://usera.imagecave.com/bdoughty/Abe-Simpson-walking-in-and-out-the-simpsons-7414427-320-240.gif




01010011011011110111001001110010011110010010000001 00111101101110011001010110001001100001011000110110 10110010000001101001011100110010000001100001001000 00011011010110111101100100011001010111001001100001 01110100011011110111001000101111011000010110010001 10110101101001011011100010000001100001011011100110 01000010000001111001011011110111010100100000011000 01011100100110010100100000011011100110111101110100 00100000011000010110110001101100011011110111011101 10010101100100001000000111010001101111001000000110 10010110011101101110011011110111001001100101001000 00011010000110100101101101001000000110111101110010 00100000011010000110010101110010001011100000110100 00101000001101000010100101001001100101011000010110 11000110110001111001001111110010000001000101011101 10011001010110111000100000011000010110011001110100 01100101011100100010000001110100011010000110010100 10000001001101010011000100101100100000011000010110 11100110010000100000010001110110000101101110011001 00011010000110100100100000011000110110111101101101 01110000011000010111001001101001011100110110111101 10111000111111

[Roy38]

Why did MLK fight for Civil Rights? Why did Ghandi fight for independence?

We want to help make the game better, just as with anything there is always a sacrifice. If I want to pay my bills I must sacrifice my free time and go to work, I've been apart of the NCAA community for eight years now and have contributed to a lot of people gaining a better understanding of the game, I've now focused some of that energy to helping make the game better and hopefully bring a better game to the community.

Why did OU hire John Blake to be their head coach?

That's an easy angle to see, but when you give up things that are more important in your life (hardships) just to make someone else millions, where's the draw on that? It's one thing to have the time available and the willingness to see something you'd like to enjoy more, but it's another matter entirely when one of those two are strained. Even after you'd "helped the cause" and you see what has become of your time, where do you draw the line?

You could argue that NCAA '12 is the pinnacle of the series on this current generation of consoles. In some regards, that statement is true. But when you look back at the beginning of the era, back to "Wide Open Gameplay" where you could throw for 1,000 yards in a game and score 20 TD's, you'd could legitimately say that was the one of the worst. Yet, I never had to have a game simmed due a "Transfer Failed" issue (then again after the developers declared this issue was resolved) or have a playbook that was rendered unplayable with "???" in it during that time. To that extent, which game was indeed worse?

Oneback, I respect what you have to offer the community. In fact, you've helped me over the years, but even you have personally stated your doubts - either directly or indirectly by saying you don't know if you'll participate in the future. That's says a lot in your faith in the franchise.

[Oneback]

Half the time is not just a few formations and audibles. That is why I used the term, exaggerate.



http://usera.imagecave.com/bdoughty/Abe-Simpson-walking-in-and-out-the-simpsons-7414427-320-240.gif




01010011011011110111001001110010011110010010000001 00111101101110011001010110001001100001011000110110 10110010000001101001011100110010000001100001001000 00011011010110111101100100011001010111001001100001 01110100011011110111001000101111011000010110010001 10110101101001011011100010000001100001011011100110 01000010000001111001011011110111010100100000011000 01011100100110010100100000011011100110111101110100 00100000011000010110110001101100011011110111011101 10010101100100001000000111010001101111001000000110 10010110011101101110011011110111001001100101001000 00011010000110100101101101001000000110111101110010 00100000011010000110010101110010001011100000110100 00101000001101000010100101001001100101011000010110 11000110110001111001001111110010000001000101011101 10011001010110111000100000011000010110011001110100 01100101011100100010000001110100011010000110010100 10000001001101010011000100101100100000011000010110 11100110010000100000010001110110000101101110011001 00011010000110100100100000011000110110111101101101 01110000011000010111001001101001011100110110111101 10111000111111

Sarcasm detector broken?

[Roy38]

Half the time is not just a few formations and audibles. That is why I used the term, exaggerate.



http://usera.imagecave.com/bdoughty/Abe-Simpson-walking-in-and-out-the-simpsons-7414427-320-240.gif




01010011011011110111001001110010011110010010000001 00111101101110011001010110001001100001011000110110 10110010000001101001011100110010000001100001001000 00011011010110111101100100011001010111001001100001 01110100011011110111001000101111011000010110010001 10110101101001011011100010000001100001011011100110 01000010000001111001011011110111010100100000011000 01011100100110010100100000011011100110111101110100 00100000011000010110110001101100011011110111011101 10010101100100001000000111010001101111001000000110 10010110011101101110011011110111001001100101001000 00011010000110100101101101001000000110111101110010 00100000011010000110010101110010001011100000110100 00101000001101000010100101001001100101011000010110 11000110110001111001001111110010000001000101011101 10011001010110111000100000011000010110011001110100 01100101011100100010000001110100011010000110010100 10000001001101010011000100101100100000011000010110 11100110010000100000010001110110000101101110011001 00011010000110100100100000011000110110111101101101 01110000011000010111001001101001011100110110111101 10111000111111

Translation:
Sorry Oneback is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her.

Really? Even after the MLK and Gandhi comparison?

[ram29jackson]

You know, at Operation Sports, you'd be gone by now. For that matter, I'd been gone by post #1.:D

yep, this place isnt run like a cult church, yet still more civil than most

[JBHuskers]

You know, at Operation Sports, you'd be gone by now. For that matter, I'd been gone by post #1.:D

But yet other sites say we censor people :D :D :D :D :D

[steelerfan]

"Apart" means separate from. "A part" has a completely different meaning.

http://tapatalk.com/mu/62c401e2-5d22-8fad.jpg

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk

[Kwizzy]

Look in no way am I complaining, these events are a great time where I get to meet tons of interesting people, learn about interesting subjects, and provide feedback on a game that I love. I feel very privelaged to be asked to participate. My reason for pointing out the sacrifice was to make it aparent that there is no way in hell that I would continue to make those sacrifices if I felt that my time was being wasted. The second I feel that my feedback is not being considered or that I am wasting my time I will not continue to be involved.

I think it's fairly obvious that I do have some questions at this point about how my feedback is being used, as does Oneback (and some others). But one thing I can assure you is that the devs I have worked with at the events have been very interested in my opinions and input. My questions all reside in how much they are willing (AND ABLE) to change because, as I (and others) said previously, we have suggested some major critiques that would be impossible to implement immediately. To this point, I remain confident that my time is NOT being wasted.

[JBHuskers]

"Apart" means separate from. "A part" has a completely different meaning.

http://tapatalk.com/mu/62c401e2-5d22-8fad.jpg

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk

Nice pull :D

[Roy38]

But yet other sites say we censor people :D :D :D :D :D

Which goes to show the relationship between Utopia and Tailgate isn't imaginary.

[oweb26]

Hell, I've personally sent them glitches. I sent them instructions on how to do the goon kick, and I think it's pretty obvious why that would need to be removed. I also sent them instructions on how to perform the disconnect glitch. I sent both of those last year. Guess what's still in the game this year and done the exact same way as the year before.


I've never sent them videos of anything. I'm not putting in the effort of creating a video for something that is going to fall on deaf ears. Just like the video I made of the game where my opponent had 12 fumbles. I didn't send it to them. If I did, I would've got some remark like "make sure you cover up the ball" or some dumb shit like that. I have to :D at you saying "WHY?" As if it's hard to break the game when EA hasn't improved it in years. I can still run the same exact shit I have for years because EA doesn't know how to correctly program the AI without there being times where they will get completely fucked up. Watch the goon kick sometime and tell me it should be in the game.

Unless you were referring to someone other than EA. You said it, I'm just repeating. :D

[Oneback]

"Apart" means separate from. "A part" has a completely different meaning.

http://tapatalk.com/mu/62c401e2-5d22-8fad.jpg

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk

Thank you English professor, I apologize that my typing/spelling skills weren't up to snuff at 1am.

[steelerfan]

Thank you English professor, I apologize that my typing/spelling skills weren't up to snuff at 1am.

:D I've seen it 4 times from you (and not just in this thread). Initially, I thought it was a typo. Eventually, I figured it wasn't. Thought I'd help.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk

[psusnoop]

Unless you were referring to someone other than EA. You said it, I'm just repeating. :D

I was going to do this on my phone last night, then figured ah heck no worth the hassle. Well done though.

[ram29jackson]

"Apart" means separate from. "A part" has a completely different meaning.

http://tapatalk.com/mu/62c401e2-5d22-8fad.jpg

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk


does that make you a smartass or a smart ass ? LOL

[morsdraconis]

does that make you a smartass or a smart ass ? LOL

Definitely a smart ass. Smartass is dumb internet talk.

[JeffHCross]

I mean, we're talking about a game that doesn't even have blown assignments programmed into the game. Blown assignments don't exist, at all, in NCAA or Madden football.Actually, they do, at least on defense. I've had guys in coverage that took the wrong man on two crossing routes, ended up with opposing WRs who were totally open.

And Head Coach 09 actually did have blown assignments, at every position on the field. Unfortunately, it was tied to the player's knowledge of the playbook, which meant a whole new mechanic to worry about. Hard to balance that for the hardcore/casual crowd.


I notice you guys continue to point out that its a hardship to take time away from work, either by a paid or unpaid leave of absence, to be a part of this program or events. If it's so inconvenient, why go? To me, this goes beyond wanting to improve the game - especially when you consider you aren't receiving any allowances or benefits from EA other than the ones everyone has provided. In essence, why put so much time and effort into something that's not even yours, especially when you don't have the convenient resources to do it?I was fortunate, compared with others, in that I had plenty enough vacation to spare to cover the visits to EA. Originally, I didn't think I'd be able to participate beyond the first event because of work commitments, but, again, I was fortunate. The simple reality is that I don't take a vacation ... ever. So having the excuse/reason to actually step away and take time from work was well worth it.

As well, quite simply, I learned a lot from the experience. I have studied the game industry a lot over the years, but I really had no idea what a company like EA was like. Some similarities to my own job, some that were vastly different. Getting hands-on experience with part of the development cycle, especially one outside my normal 9-to-5 hours, is well worth it for my long-term career growth.

[Roy38]

I recall Locomotion and gang tackling from NCAA 11. Both are still there. Gang tackling's actually been expanded upon. What are you thinking of that has disappeared?

I missed this through all of the traffic...

You can definitely see that Locomotion has been removed/reduced in areas. You used to be able to string together moves when running the ball with minimal interruption. Now, many animations have to complete before the next move can begin. As an example, try to do a stutter-juke. The level of freedom isn't there when compared to NCAA '11.