Are we really just FOOLING ourselves with this game and Madden?

[Whammer]

I'm enjoying NCAA 12 but for the last 5 years (at least) I always feel like I'm fooling myself.
When I absolutely need to get a 1st down I almost always go to the SAME play. When I run the ball I use 1-3 different running plays. When I pass I use 1-3 different pass plays. On defense I pretty much stick to basic defensive calls, looking to maintain solid pass coverage.

We all know the plays NOT to call. A screen pass is pretty much going to get blown up 95% of the time, so why risk calling it?
Option pass plays....almost impossible to do. You just don't have the time to fake the option run and then try and pass the ball, it's an almost certain sack.
On D seldom do you sell out on the blitz because you know you'll get torched.
So with all the hundreds of various plays why do I use less than 10?
This is where I think we are fooling ourselves.

Yes EA gives us a lot of different plays and formations but I think most of them are worthless. But yet we will call them in an attempt to switch things up and try a new play. And when they fail what do we do? We go back to our money plays.
So while the game might seem challenging, it's usually only challenging when we call plays that are worthless. If we stick to the plays that we know will work it's fairly easy to dominate the cpu.
Surely I can't be alone in my thinking.

[steelerfan]

:fp:

[AustinWolv]

A screen pass is pretty much going to get blown up 95% of the time, so why risk calling it?
I'm confused on why people have been posting that a lot. Screens have worked awesome for me this year on Heisman. Bubble, HB slip, HB boot.....not really the WR middle though......have all gotten me big gainers or crucial 1st downs or merely given me some yardage as part of a regular series to make the defense adjust away from playing me a certain way. The fail rate is nowhere approaching 95% for me, much less 60%. Yeah, they don't go for TDs every time, but the number of times it has been an incompletion, no gain, or a loss is probably only something like 10% of the screens called for my playcalling.
You can't expect to run screens constantly, real teams don't either. If I try to use them over and over, like going to them every 3rd down, the CPU will snuff them out and WILL defend them. Thus, go back to downfield passing plays and all is good. Draws have worked beautifully also, but again, can't keep going to the well because the CPU will shut them down.

As for the rest of your post, sure, valid points. Part of 'gaming' the game. You are right in that I haven't bothered with option passes in at least several versions of NCAA. Some other plays too.....they are very situational, so of course they don't get used much. And you are right, there are some I don't even bother with, although I'd need the playbook screen in front of me to list them. :)

[JBHuskers]

I can get a screen pass to work a majority of the time, it's all about timing.

[xMrHitStickx904]

I'm enjoying NCAA 12 but for the last 5 years (at least) I always feel like I'm fooling myself.
When I absolutely need to get a 1st down I almost always go to the SAME play. When I run the ball I use 1-3 different running plays. When I pass I use 1-3 different pass plays. On defense I pretty much stick to basic defensive calls, looking to maintain solid pass coverage.

We all know the plays NOT to call. A screen pass is pretty much going to get blown up 95% of the time, so why risk calling it?
Option pass plays....almost impossible to do. You just don't have the time to fake the option run and then try and pass the ball, it's an almost certain sack.
On D seldom do you sell out on the blitz because you know you'll get torched.
So with all the hundreds of various plays why do I use less than 10?
This is where I think we are fooling ourselves.

Yes EA gives us a lot of different plays and formations but I think most of them are worthless. But yet we will call them in an attempt to switch things up and try a new play. And when they fail what do we do? We go back to our money plays.
So while the game might seem challenging, it's usually only challenging when we call plays that are worthless. If we stick to the plays that we know will work it's fairly easy to dominate the cpu.
Surely I can't be alone in my thinking.

uhhh .... who is WE? Maybe YOU, but not ME. Trust me, if you think you can beat the majority of people with 3 plays ... you sir are fooling nobody but yourself.

[cdj]

I don't know if we are fooling ourselves, but we may be out-thinking ourselves.

IRL on a big 3rd or 4th down play, what does a college or NFL team run? Something they can execute the best and have the most faith in (after running it all season long) or do they pull out a new play?

Yeah, there are definitely some plays that work more effectively and efficiently than others, but I'm not sure that makes them "money plays." Can you run them against Oklahoma while playing as Akron and win on Heisman Mode? Even if you can, that may be a reflection on your skills versus an indictment on the plays.

As a community, we've always tried to persist that we must run a bunch of plays from numerous formations when playing a human foe. In football (especially college), teams will typically run something until the other team can stop it. Now, if it's an exploit that's a different story. However, the lack of adjustment (by human foe or CPU, for that matter) still doesn't necessarily mean that there is a huge problem with the plays.

[gigemaggs99]

I haven't had any issue with the screen passes either. When I see the defense blitzing and "jumping the snap" I call a screen, then it works. If I call it over and over I will get hammered.

I have been able to run the option, seems better than in past versions. I read the DE like you're supposed to and it works pretty well. I like that you can't pitch the ball at the last second like you could in previous versions, seems more realistic...in past versions it was like playing the harlem globe trotters.

PA seems to work too. I run the ball until I see the defense cheating up, then I try it out, usually works fine....

maybe it's b/c I use lower ranked teams...i.e. UAB, ULM, WMU, etc....and I have to play the game more like a chess match. I don't feel there are ANY money plays with my lower teir teams. Sure I lose some but who wants to play a game where you never lose? Won't that get boring after a while? I like the realism of it....I've never heard of a real NCAA team going undefeated for years on end, maybe 1-2 years TOPS but not year after year after year...

On Defense, have you tried using different playbooks? Tried learning new plays or using different user controller players? If you run the same Defensive plays over and over I can see that it might get boring, why not challenge yourself and learn other parts? If you are beating the crap outta the CPU are you upset that you are winning? I'm kinda confused on this one. Are you saying you want other plays to work better? Or are you wanting the CPU to peform better vs your Defense?

I'm not understanding the sell out on a blitz comment...it's that part of rollin' the dice? There is a chance you will be torched? It seems like a VERY AGGRESSIVE call, and sometimes it works out but sometimes it doesn't...if it worked everytime...wouldn't it then be considered a "money play"?

Maybe you're not really wanting anyone to comment, perhaps you just want to vent. If that's the case, sorry for wasting your time and mine. Myself I enjoy playing my buddies, I don't have money plays vs them...I enjoy playing them nightly and each time I try and add a new wrinkle to my offense to attempt to throw them a curve-ball. Same goes for defense if they were beating me up the night before I try and study my defense to learn possible solutions that may help me the next time we battle.

In the end, if you feel like you're wasting your time stop spending your money on the game. Seems pointless to pay money for something you're happy with, move on. Like is too short to worry about things that don't matter. I say play and enjoy it or don't play.

Thanks for listening.

Gus

[AustinWolv]

I think PA works pretty well this year also, as long as you are making sure you have enough blockers compared to rushers and/or can get the ball out quick enough to make that extra rusher be a non-factor, which goes for any pass play, ya know?

The other caveat I'll throw in is that a lot of plays are meant for certain situations and after being set up/worked into the gameplan. There are plays I don't run and even took out of my playbook because they aren't branches of the base plays I run. So I could say a play doesn't work for me or doesn't seem to work, but it is because I'm not running the base or compliment plays that the aforementioned play fits with......

[Whammer]

uhhh .... who is WE? Maybe YOU, but not ME. Trust me, if you think you can beat the majority of people with 3 plays ... you sir are fooling nobody but yourself.

If you read my post you'll see I was talking about playing the cpu, not other players.

[Whammer]

PA works okay, never posted that it didn't. Option can work too. Option PASS is probably almost impossible to do and since it's failure rate is so high I see no reason to even consider the play.

I can't get screens to work at all. And I don't run them very often, of course now I only try them every 5th game or so. Yes timing is a factor and perhaps I just don't have the timing. For me it's about letting the D line come after me and then I throw the ball. But my RB will get the ball (seldom cleanly) and loses valuable time adjusting and then gets hammered. Or there are defenders on him almost before he can get the ball.

[Whammer]

Here's another little question that I think will help make my point.
3rd and long, what play do you call? I'm willing to bet that most people call the SAME play almost every single time.

[gigemaggs99]

As a community, we've always tried to persist that we must run a bunch of plays from numerous formations when playing a human foe. In football (especially college), teams will typically run something until the other team can stop it. Now, if it's an exploit that's a different story. However, the lack of adjustment (by human foe or CPU, for that matter) still doesn't necessarily mean that there is a huge problem with the plays.

This is a perfect point...and hits at the heart of my complaint. I guess there is a fine line between sportsmanship, fairplay and reality....I'm just not 100% sure where the boundries lie.

In real life, my wife and I go to the local H/S games. We enjoy watching football. These teams run only a handful of plays, most are repeats or just flipped versions of the same plays. You can see their "call sheets" first hand, it's like they come out in the 2nd half and it all repeats itself, just in a different order...but you can see the plays coming....They will add a few new plays throughout the season, but like cdj said, if they find something that works they ride that horse until they are bucked, and sometimes they ride it HARD.

When I look for an OD I always find it strange to see rules about what you can and cannot do. I completely understand there are issues, after all this IS a video game and it does have flaws, it's programmed, it's not a human so at some point it will have tendencies, the trick to beating the A.I. is figuring out when and where those tendecies will work in your favor. In real life, good coaches would catch those tendecies and take advantage of them, but the other coaches SHOULD see the errors in their ways and also adjust their gameplans accordingly.

This year the A.I. does seem differnent though...but I'm not 100% how far from real life it is...when I play the CPU it will no-huddle me to death, it will go for it on 4th and long, fake punts, call time outs with 1 second left in the 4th just to kick a FG when it's already beating me 42-3.....I look at this and I'm like WOW this dang thing is MEAN....but ou does the same thing, they score score score they beat my AGGIES 77-0 and never looked back....stoops is the worst at in my opinion but he wins and the ou fans are happy so what can you say?

So what I'm saying is, there is this fine line that I don't see....in ODs they will say when you get up by X amount let up, or don't do this or that....well in real life they don't let up. They put their backups in and those kids just want to play, they want to show they can do it, so they don't let up.

It's funny, it's like it's all one-sided, when you are winning it's nice, but then there is a fine line between running up the score and being "fair" and "nice"...in the end the people that vote on bowl games don't take into account that bob stoops wasn't "fair" or "nice" in week 2 when he beat the CRAP outta some smaller school, they just look at them and say, well they were undefeated...however, when you're losing it seems mean and poor sportsmanship....

I understand it's not nice to run up the score, but it's funny how when you factor in the "rivalry" that goes out the window....if ou beats the CRAP outta texas or vice versa they sure as hell dont' feel sorry about it.

I also have this gripe when playing the CPU. It will not let up, like I said above, however, if I'm beating the CPU and it's in the 3rd quarter, I'm up say 28-7 and I'm looking at 3rd and 7....I throw a 10 yard pass to convert for the 1st down I will get (-75 points) for running up the score or poor sportsmanship...what a JOKE! I'm not trying to score more, just keep the other Offense off the field. So it irks me when I see this pop up on the screen...yet I never see it pop up on the CPU side when they are doing MUCH worse...so again here is the fine-line between what's "fair" and what's "nice".....

I've actually started to notice it less, I just play the game and if I win, I win. I sure get enough losses, so I enjoy the wins I do get. That's being said, I don't pause the game with 1 second left to kick a 40yard FG to beat the CPU 45-3 instead of 42-3...I take a knee.

[Pig Bomb]

I'm enjoying NCAA 12 but for the last 5 years (at least) I always feel like I'm fooling myself.
When I absolutely need to get a 1st down I almost always go to the SAME play. When I run the ball I use 1-3 different running plays. When I pass I use 1-3 different pass plays. On defense I pretty much stick to basic defensive calls, looking to maintain solid pass coverage.

We all know the plays NOT to call. A screen pass is pretty much going to get blown up 95% of the time, so why risk calling it?
Option pass plays....almost impossible to do. You just don't have the time to fake the option run and then try and pass the ball, it's an almost certain sack.
On D seldom do you sell out on the blitz because you know you'll get torched.
So with all the hundreds of various plays why do I use less than 10?
This is where I think we are fooling ourselves.

Yes EA gives us a lot of different plays and formations but I think most of them are worthless. But yet we will call them in an attempt to switch things up and try a new play. And when they fail what do we do? We go back to our money plays.
So while the game might seem challenging, it's usually only challenging when we call plays that are worthless. If we stick to the plays that we know will work it's fairly easy to dominate the cpu.
Surely I can't be alone in my thinking.

i dont play the game the way you do... im not fooling myself
you basically use 6 plays?
why bother playing?
you are that determined to win at all costs?
sad
play shooters...skip the sports

[gigemaggs99]

Here's another little question that I think will help make my point.
3rd and long, what play do you call? I'm willing to bet that most people call the SAME play almost every single time.

I guess I'm the weird one then...I'd call one of the following:

-if you're been blitzing a lot, I'd try a screen

-if you've been playing MAN I call probably call deep outs, or slants, or any variation of a MAN beater, all depends on if you've been running Cover 0, 1, 2, 3, 4....

-if you've been running ZONE I'd call a levels play or a flood, again depends on the type of covered...2,3, etc...

-if you usually come out with some sort of 3 man D-Line I might even give a delayed handoff a shot, i.e. a Draw...it has a chance.

Now if you're referring to ONLY calling 4 verticals, then you are bording on cheese. However, that being said, it depends on how LONG the 3rd and long is. I can always back my cover up, play pass commit and send some blitzers to hurry the QB.

Maybe I'm the weird one, I'm thinking there is always a WAY....

Yes a lot of what I'm referreing to is USER vs USER games but when I play the CPU I pick up on their defense too. I read if they run Man or Zone, I read if they run Cover 2 or 3....I check the box to see if I have numbers in my favor....so in a way it's almost identical to playing a user for me.

The biggest difference I've seen in USER games vs CPU games is, the CPU does not drop back 20 yards to throw a 40 yard pass.

[gigemaggs99]

i dont play the game the way you do... im not fooling myself
you basically 6 plays
why bother playing?
you are that determined to win at all costs?
sad
play shooters...skip the sports


:fdown: man I typed all mine out...but you summed it up MUCH faster. :clap:

The only sad thing I would add is, if you've purchase NCAA and Madden for the last 5 years, and are on next gen, then you've wasted $600 fooling yourself.

[Whammer]

i dont play the game the way you do... im not fooling myself
you basically 6 plays
why bother playing?
you are that determined to win at all costs?
sad
play shooters...skip the sports

Isn't the point of a sport to win?
If I'm playing my Dynasty then it seems pretty stupid to call plays that may cost me the game. I want to win! And while you might not realize it, you have actually proved my point.
You play the game in a way that makes the games closer than they probably would be, and when you lose tell yourself what a tough game the cpu gave you, but did it? So essentially you are fooling yourself that the cpu is giving you a competitive game.

[Whammer]

:fdown: man I typed all mine out...but you summed it up MUCH faster. :clap:

The only sad thing I would add is, if you've purchase NCAA and Madden for the last 5 years, and are on next gen, then you've wasted $600 fooling yourself.

Well I've bought Madden once in 5 years and NCAA 3 times. NHL and FIFA get my money every year.

[keyser soze]

House rules my friend. While I don't ENJOY implementing them, it does bring longevity to my dynasties. If you find a broken play, formation or way of running a play simply house rule it OUT. Its even EASIER to do this now with custom playbooks. You can physically throw it out!

[gigemaggs99]

Well, I guess it comes down to you frame of mind. It seems like most of the people on this website forum come here b/c they REALLY REALLY enjoy this game, so you're kinda coming shakin' up the hornets nest asking if we are fooling ourselves by paying for and playing this game....your opening comments kinda stacked the deck....

That being said, if you want to win at all costs then go for it. Myself I would get VERY bored with running the same plays over and over and go undefeated every season. I would either try new plays out to see if I could have the same success OR I would trade the game in.

I'm confused with the vibe I'm getting from your posts, it seems like it's something like this: who likes winning all the time? who likes using the same plays over and over? I want to win all the time but I don't want to use different plays that I KNOW won't work b/c the could lead to me not winning, so I'm stuck winning all the time...

[JBHuskers]

Yeah I don't HAVE to win ALL off the time. Just finished a season in Steelerfan's OD with Eastern Michigan and I'm 3-9, but I'm having a blast in this OD. But some people HAVE to win all the time or else the game sucks.

[AustinWolv]

3rd and long, what play do you call? I'm willing to bet that most people call the SAME play almost every single time.
Nope. CPU picks up on it and counters it. Hence my earlier comment about burning them on 3rd and long with a screen which they will absolutely call a defense to counter the next time you are in 3rd and long. Running posts a lot against Cover2? You'll see them come out in Cover3 or dropping the MLB deeper in a Tampa2 type of call.

[Whammer]

Well, I guess it comes down to you frame of mind. It seems like most of the people on this website forum come here b/c they REALLY REALLY enjoy this game, so you're kinda coming shakin' up the hornets nest asking if we are fooling ourselves by paying for and playing this game....your opening comments kinda stacked the deck....

That being said, if you want to win at all costs then go for it. Myself I would get VERY bored with running the same plays over and over and go undefeated every season. I would either try new plays out to see if I could have the same success OR I would trade the game in.

I'm confused with the vibe I'm getting from your posts, it seems like it's something like this: who likes winning all the time? who likes using the same plays over and over? I want to win all the time but I don't want to use different plays that I KNOW won't work b/c the could lead to me not winning, so I'm stuck winning all the time...

Well HOW DIFFERENT are many of the plays? Aren't most of the running plays fairly boring? There really aren't any true trapping plays. You either run it up the gut or take it outside. Counters are risky to run because the AI seldom gets fooled, they usually blow the play up in the backfield.
I've tried using the flexbone formation but it's very tough to get much of a consistent run game from it because user AI just doesn't block well enough to make it an effective formation- except in very limited situations.

[Whammer]

Nope. CPU picks up on it and counters it. Hence my earlier comment about burning them on 3rd and long with a screen which they will absolutely call a defense to counter the next time you are in 3rd and long. Running posts a lot against Cover2? You'll see them come out in Cover3 or dropping the MLB deeper in a Tampa2 type of call.

I think you're giving the cpu too much credit- it ain't that smart.

[psusnoop]

3rd and longs depends entirely on the situation at hand.

Field position, score, other teams tendencies on 3rd downs, field position, and others.

I will go for the first down with a corner, post, curl or out or I will just try and catch you with a draw play. I've also added in screen passes this year.


Last night I got a couple of big plays with the middle screen and HB screen. They work it is just timing.

[Whammer]

Now if you're referring to ONLY calling 4 verticals, then you are bording on cheese.




Really?
Why is that play included in so many formations?
Isn't using any 5 wr set cheese? The cpu has a very difficult time defending it.
Another poster stated that the cpu will shut you down if you use the same play- so how can 4 vertical be cheese? Won't the cpu shut it down? It can't be both.

[gigemaggs99]

Well HOW DIFFERENT are many of the plays? Aren't most of the running plays fairly boring? There really aren't any true trapping plays. You either run it up the gut or take it outside. Counters are risky to run because the AI seldom gets fooled, they usually blow the play up in the backfield.
I've tried using the flexbone formation but it's very tough to get much of a consistent run game from it because user AI just doesn't block well enough to make it an effective formation- except in very limited situations.



Maybe we have things set up differently. I'm running the RNS from the Flexbone and Pistol formations. I'm using AA difficulty/recruiting, sliders on default. Penalties holding, clipping, facemask are on 50, all the rest are on 100.

I'm using ULM. I played against the CPU Lousiville. Passing: 247 yards 3 Tds 16-25 passing, Rushing 124 yards and 2 TDs on 21 carries. I'm loving the flexbone!

[gigemaggs99]

Really?
Why is that play included in so many formations?
Isn't using any 5 wr set cheese? The cpu has a very difficult time defending it.
Another poster stated that the cpu will shut you down if you use the same play- so how can 4 vertical be cheese? Won't the cpu shut it down? It can't be both.

I don't know sir, I don't run 4 verticals, I was just throwing it out there b/c that's a play I heard of last year that was abuse, as was the toss from Maryland I....either way I don't run the 4 verticals or the toss.

I have no 5 wide set, and I don't have the maryland I in my PB. Can't help you there.

[JBHuskers]

I run 4-vert every once in a while, but a lot of times I hot route it to tailor it to give me more options. On top of that 4-vert has several different variations on it.

[gigemaggs99]

One thing I will say that is "interesting" if I come out in Pistol Spread any passing play, and I see the Defense has 4 or less in the box, I R-stick audible to a run and the CPU Defense "magically" brings everyone down into the box. If I audible L2 back to the original pass play, the Defense will back back out to their original alignments....so then I go back to the R-stick RUN and sure enough they move back...seems almost psychic.....

[AustinWolv]

I think you're giving the cpu too much credit- it ain't that smart.
Considering I directly observed the CPU defense change up how they played me on 3rd and long, I stand by what I said. They went from sending the house and getting burned on a HB screen to only rushing the down linemen and manning up on the RB.
They went from leaving the deep middle of the field wide open to defending it and thus giving up the middle sideline.

So yes, the CPU probably isn't that 'smart', but smart enough to change things up. And smart enough that video evidence would show this versus just a subjective rebuttal that you gave with no concrete counter-analysis.

By the way, I've had counters work nicely; they don't get blown up constantly.


Why is that play included in so many formations?
It should be noted that real teams have the same route combos and have the same basic plays out of different formations. They may tweak a blocking assignment here or there depending on the opponent, but it isn't uncommon to run the same play with simply a different alignment.


..so then I go back to the R-stick RUN and sure enough they move back...seems almost psychic.....
This has been noted in past versions.
I've seen it happen in '12 and also NOT happen. In fact, have chewed up the CPU defense on the ground because they didn't adjust out of their pass defense. They also play a lot of zone this year.

[ram29jackson]

its a game, its a toy, it doesnt have that much or enough of the next gen logic they promised us in that Madden/Eagles animated commercial years ago. But it has enough at this point to make it fun and interesting and..I dont want to say believable ,but at most a good embellishment of what football is. EA has no intention of making it a simulation but its a pretty good emulation at this point. ...get rid of that commit command crap though.

[Pig Bomb]

Isn't the point of a sport to win?
If I'm playing my Dynasty then it seems pretty stupid to call plays that may cost me the game. I want to win! And while you might not realize it, you have actually proved my point.
You play the game in a way that makes the games closer than they probably would be, and when you lose tell yourself what a tough game the cpu gave you, but did it? So essentially you are fooling yourself that the cpu is giving you a competitive game.

no...i play realistically.... no team in real life calls the same 3 runs and the same 3 passes all game long... thats silly

and yes the objective is to win...but for me..not at all costs..meaning i run more than 6 plays that i know the computer AI cant handle

[Whammer]

Considering I directly observed the CPU defense change up how they played me on 3rd and long, I stand by what I said. They went from sending the house and getting burned on a HB screen to only rushing the down linemen and manning up on the RB.
They went from leaving the deep middle of the field wide open to defending it and thus giving up the middle sideline.

So yes, the CPU probably isn't that 'smart', but smart enough to change things up. And smart enough that video evidence would show this versus just a subjective rebuttal that you gave with no concrete counter-analysis.

By the way, I've had counters work nicely; they don't get blown up constantly.




I've had counters work too, but most times they get blown up. I've seen it enough to never call the play if I need to get a few yards for a 1st. I'll call it when I have a throw away down, like a 2nd and short.

As for cpu adjusting to what you do....I pass over the middle a lot and they never seem to shut that down, at least not consistently.

I should clarify that I do try different plays, but just like when I call a counter, I try different plays on throwaway downs, 1st and 5, 2nd and short.
I think it's impossible to take our human tendencies out of the game. Unconsciously I think most people are calling plays that they know will get them the yards they need. Especially at critical times of the game.
The only way around this would be to use the "ask Coach" feature and use whatever play is suggested.
But somehow I doubt many of you, even those that claim they like the challenge, will use that feature. ;)

[JBHuskers]

I haven't had that must win with these three plays and win every game mentality since Tecmo Bowl and Walter Payton.

[Whammer]

no...i play realistically.... no team in real life calls the same 3 runs and the same 3 passes all game long... thats silly

and yes the objective is to win...but for me..not at all costs..meaning i run more than 6 plays that i know the computer AI cant handle


You miss my point, or I didn't state it very well.
I should say I have 3 run plays and 3 pass plays that I know are very reliable and will work when I need it.
I try other plays, with mixed results.
As for real life teams- I think you'd be surprised how many teams use the same plays over and over. They might give it a bit of a different look but they are the same play. The Packers of the 60's used the Power Sweep over and over and no one could stop that play.
You keep running outside and when they finally adjust you smash it up the middle. True football is pretty simplistic and brutal.

[Pig Bomb]

I've had counters work too, but most times they get blown up. I've seen it enough to never call the play if I need to get a few yards for a 1st. I'll call it when I have a throw away down, like a 2nd and short.

As for cpu adjusting to what you do....I pass over the middle a lot and they never seem to shut that down, at least not consistently.

I should clarify that I do try different plays, but just like when I call a counter, I try different plays on throwaway downs, 1st and 5, 2nd and short.
I think it's impossible to take our human tendencies out of the game. Unconsciously I think most people are calling plays that they know will get them the yards they need. Especially at critical times of the game.
The only way around this would be to use the "ask Coach" feature and use whatever play is suggested.
But somehow I doubt many of you, even those that claim they like the challenge, will use that feature. ;)


basically you are saying everyone uses money plays whenever they "need it"

when in fact, i bet a ton of people on this site actually avoid using money plays...instead we call plays we hope will work, not "know" will work

just pretend like you are coaching a real team against a real coach and call your plays...assume you probably can't use the same play you used on 3rd and long last time when you got it because the other coach is smart

play like that...the game is a blast

[Pig Bomb]

i'm talking video game football from the year 2011...not Packers 1960's geesh

[Dr Death]

Isn't using any 5 wr set cheese?

Though I'm sure you don't care, I take great offense to that statement. There's a couple of people here who have played me... when I have my rare good connection... and I use 5-Wide exclusively. My QB stands in the pocket, I read the defense and make the throw. Neither of them ever had a problem w/ my style or accused me of "cheesing." I have a plethora of plays that I use which has been increased dramatically w/ Custom Playbooks.

I have numerous plays for 3rd and short, 3rd and medium, 3rd and long but for me, the biggest key is I read the defense prior to the snap. I am perfectly content w/ a 3 yard pass because 2nd and 7 is better than 2nd and 10.

I don't use any particular play over and over and even the ones I use the most, I will always have 3 or 4 WR's that can be the go-to guy depending on what the defense is doing. So sorry... but 5-Wide is not "cheese." If it is, then :Missouri: is guilty of it, as are a number of other college teams as well as the New England Patriots.

[Whammer]

i'm talking video game football from the year 2011...not Packers 1960's geesh


NO, you said no team is REAL LIFE. Don't get angry at me when you use the wrong words.

[Deuce]

when in fact, i bet a ton of people on this site actually avoid using money plays...instead we call plays we hope will work, not "know" will work

:+1:

[Whammer]

Though I'm sure you don't care, I take great offense to that statement. There's a couple of people here who have played me... when I have my rare good connection... and I use 5-Wide exclusively. My QB stands in the pocket, I read the defense and make the throw. Neither of them ever had a problem w/ my style or accused me of "cheesing." I have a plethora of plays that I use which has been increased dramatically w/ Custom Playbooks.

I have numerous plays for 3rd and short, 3rd and medium, 3rd and long but for me, the biggest key is I read the defense prior to the snap. I am perfectly content w/ a 3 yard pass because 2nd and 7 is better than 2nd and 10.

I don't use any particular play over and over and even the ones I use the most, I will always have 3 or 4 WR's that can be the go-to guy depending on what the defense is doing. So sorry... but 5-Wide is not "cheese." If it is, then :Missouri: is guilty of it, as are a number of other college teams as well as the New England Patriots.

I'm referring to cpu AI, many say the cpu just can't handle 5wr sets very well. Even playing against humans it's probably a little unfair because the best players are probably not on the field. Top LB's are probably sitting while lesser DB's are trying to defend.
You guys want a challenge?
Then stick with 2 and 3 wr's (at most) formations.

[Pig Bomb]

NO, you said no team is REAL LIFE. Don't get angry at me when you use the wrong words.

im talking real life modern NCAA football..not the Packers of the 60's..don't be moronic

unless you have one team that is way over matched coaches will call way more than 6 plays and certainly dont use the same play over and over in key situations

[ram29jackson]

....I like cheese...oh, we were talking about gaming philosophy's, never mind...

[ram29jackson]

I'm referring to cpu AI, many say the cpu just can't handle 5wr sets very well. Even playing against humans it's probably a little unfair because the best players are probably not on the field. Top LB's are probably sitting while lesser DB's are trying to defend.
You guys want a challenge?
Then stick with 2 and 3 wr's (at most) formations.

the cpu defense seems to take 3 to 4 to 5 plays to key on if you are calling the same play or route over and over again

[Whammer]

:+1:




when in fact, i bet a ton of people on this site actually avoid using money plays...instead we call plays we hope will work, not "know" will work



Sorry, I don' buy it. If you've been playing this game for several years you've amassed a fair amount of experience that guides you.
So you've got plays you are VERY certain are going to work.
And so there will be some sort of inner guide working for you.
You aren't going to pick a play that has a 50/50 chance of working, are you? So that's sort of the "hope" point. Most likely people are looking at plays that will have a 75% chance of success, or better. Mainly better would be my bet. Something along the 90% success rate.
That's far from hoping in my opinion.

[Whammer]

im talking real life modern NCAA football..not the Packers of the 60's..don't be moronic

unless you have one team that is way over matched coaches will call way more than 6 plays and certainly dont use the same play over and over in key situations

Oh, so now you're changing your opinion again. First it was real life, then you said VIDEO GAME football, and now it's real life NCAA. Which is it?
And if real life teams have an EFFECTIVE play they WILL use it OVER AND OVER again in key situations. You don't pick a play you HOPE WILL WORK, you pick what YOU KNOW will work. At least that's what Championship teams do.

[gigemaggs99]

I'm still confused, you said from the onset:

"When I absolutely need to get a 1st down I almost always go to the SAME play. When I run the ball I use 1-3 different running plays. When I pass I use 1-3 different pass plays."

Then you go onto say:

"As for real life teams- I think you'd be surprised how many teams use the same plays over and over. They might give it a bit of a different look but they are the same play."


In real life I would assume teams practice, and they study their personnel, then they form a group of "go to plays" for certain situation, i.e. 3rd and long, 3rd and short...etc...so how is this different? Aren't they using "go to plays"?

So what are your goals here?

Yes it's cool that EA gives us Playbooks that have MANY plays, I would guess that NCAA and NFL playbooks are have a lot more than 3 runs and 3 passes. I would also guess they don't plan on running all 300+ plus plays each week. There is a compromise.

Are you saying you want to beat the computer with 150 different plays? Is 150 too much, not enough?

If the point is to WIN why not find 2 plays that work, run them until your eyes bleed and then once the CPU starts shutting them down run 2 more plays, then repeat the process.

It just seems like you are saying the video game isn't like real life (you only run a handful of plays) yet then go onto say real life teams only run a handful of plays....what are you looking for then?

If you want to run all 375 plays in your playbook why not do it?

I'm no football genuis, I'm just saying it seems basic at it's core, on offense do what works, if they give you the flats, take em, if they empty the box run it, basically go where they aren't and take what they give you. It's 100% impossible to be everywhere on the field, something is always going to work as long as the proper read is made. You can't say the counter gets blown up ALL the time. You could say the inside run gets blown up all the time again the goalline Defense middle rush, but that is kinda obvious, why run into brick wall?

"If you've been playing this game for several years you've amassed a fair amount of experience that guides you.
So you've got plays you are VERY certain are going to work."

I've been playing NCAA since back in my college days, late 90s. I've been trying different things every year. This year I'm working hard on the RNS, in the past I've worked the option, Pro-style, attempted the AIR RAID, worn out the I-Form, tried to learn the spread run....I try different things...the only plays that I KNOW will work over my years of playing are

Dives up the gut on a 3 Dline
Hailmary passes vs a goalline D

but it shouldn't take an offensive genius to figure those out.

[Pig Bomb]

Oh, so now you're changing your opinion again. First it was real life, then you said VIDEO GAME football, and now it's real life NCAA. Which is it?
And if real life teams have an EFFECTIVE play they WILL use it OVER AND OVER again in key situations. You don't pick a play you HOPE WILL WORK, you pick what YOU KNOW will work. At least that's what Championship teams do.

you can twist it any way you like.... i play my way and love it

you cheese your way and apparently don't

no sweat

[morsdraconis]

:fp:

I don't need to read anymore of this to know that, once again, we have stupid, inane bullshit being discussed in a way that is no where close to be constructive or useful at all. Jesus christ people. EITHER PLAY THE GAME OR DON'T. JUST STOP BITCHING ABOUT DUMB SHIT!

[gigemaggs99]

:fp:

I don't need to read anymore of this to know that, once again, we have stupid, inane bullshit being discussed in a way that is no where close to be constructive or useful at all. Jesus christ people. EITHER PLAY THE GAME OR DON'T. JUST STOP BITCHING ABOUT DUMB SHIT!

see what happens when you can't advance your online OD? LOL

[Pig Bomb]

:fp:

I don't need to read anymore of this to know that, once again, we have stupid, inane bullshit being discussed in a way that is no where close to be constructive or useful at all. Jesus christ people. EITHER PLAY THE GAME OR DON'T. JUST STOP BITCHING ABOUT DUMB SHIT!

wow that's not condescending or anything

you are acting like Nazi football game guy...here is your game! play it! no talking!

debate is good and has helped the makers of the game change and improve it - fact

although this thread is not very good

[AustinWolv]

I've seen it enough to never call the play if I need to get a few yards for a 1st.
When you watch football, either pro or college, and you see a team need a crucial 1st down in relatively short yardage situations against a defense that knows there is a high probability of run, how often does the offensive team run a counter?
Rarely.

A counter takes time and too much horizontal component to rely on when the best idea is to get from pointA to pointB as quickly as possible, i.e. simple straight-ahead runs have a better chance of succeeding since there are less puzzle pieces to go wrong or a run fit to shoot a gap and blow it up. Moreover, if a defense isn't flowing hard on you, why bother with a counter? When they start shifting strong, overloading, etc., then bring out the counter to get them outnumbered on the counter side.

[hitman625]

I've had counters work too, but most times they get blown up. I've seen it enough to never call the play if I need to get a few yards for a 1st. I'll call it when I have a throw away down, like a 2nd and short.

As for cpu adjusting to what you do....I pass over the middle a lot and they never seem to shut that down, at least not consistently.

I should clarify that I do try different plays, but just like when I call a counter, I try different plays on throwaway downs, 1st and 5, 2nd and short.
I think it's impossible to take our human tendencies out of the game. Unconsciously I think most people are calling plays that they know will get them the yards they need. Especially at critical times of the game.
The only way around this would be to use the "ask Coach" feature and use whatever play is suggested.
But somehow I doubt many of you, even those that claim they like the challenge, will use that feature. ;)


I see your point as far as using plays that you know will work when you need them...that's a part of football whether we'd like to admit it or not.

But I would say that with custom playbooks in addition to "ask coack" you will be given a huge array of plays that might open up your options. I've always used "ask coach" (and I've been playing since Bill Walsh College Football on Sega Genesis) and it hasn't steered me wrong yet, it gives me 9-15 plays to choose from(can't remember the exact amount) and now they're all plays I chose specifically. Playing on heisman, I have to switch up my plays b/c the cpu does start to pick up on tendancies.

Surprisngly, I've found that counters out of shotgun have been extremely effective.

[morsdraconis]

wow that's not condescending or anything

you are acting like Nazi football game guy...here is your game! play it! no talking!

debate is good and has helped the makers of the game change and improve it - fact

although this thread is not very good

He's bitching about not being able to cheese the CPU! How is that not the most utterly ridiculously dumb ass thing ever? :fp:

[Pig Bomb]

He's bitching about not being able to cheese the CPU! How is that not the most utterly ridiculously dumb ass thing ever? :fp:
ok - you are right

but not very nice

[gschwendt]

He's bitching about not being able to cheese the CPU! How is that not the most utterly ridiculously dumb ass thing ever? :fp:
Disagree all you want but this is completely unnecessary mors.

[morsdraconis]

Whatever Tommy. :fp:

[umhester04]

:fp:

I don't need to read anymore of this to know that, once again, we have stupid, inane bullshit being discussed in a way that is no where close to be constructive or useful at all. Jesus christ people. EITHER PLAY THE GAME OR DON'T. JUST STOP BITCHING ABOUT DUMB SHIT!


not trying to say this in a disrespectful way, but you are a very angry man :p

[JBHuskers]

not trying to say this in a disrespectful way, but you are a very angry man :p

We all know this :nod: :D

[morsdraconis]

(shrugs)

I'm not angry. Just tired of bullshit.

[Pig Bomb]

Mors at work.....


http://youtu.be/fuSUUPHuSRo

[morsdraconis]

Nah, that dude's a moron (and a pussy, look at how he swings).

I have no reason to do physical harm to someone, especially over stupid shit (which I'm sure that was). That's far too teen drama like.

[I OU a Beatn]

Then don't read it, dude. :D

As for what Whammer said, I have no problem admitting I run plays that I have a pretty good idea are going to work. Just like bubble screens. I will never run those of this year's game because they never work. I'm not going to run something that I know isn't going to work.

[gigemaggs99]

Mors at work.....


http://youtu.be/fuSUUPHuSRo

AWESOME! We had a guy at work (plumbing) that liked to throw nails at people, I told him to stop and he didn't so I threw a 2 x 4 at him. That worked for a while, then he started again so when he went to get a drink of water from the water cooler on the truck I scooped a shovel full of sand up and threw it at him and in his drink. He stopped throwing nails at me.

[oweb26]

Then don't read it, dude. :D

As for what Whammer said, I have no problem admitting I run plays that I have a pretty good idea are going to work. Just like bubble screens. I will never run those of this year's game because they never work. I'm not going to run something that I know isn't going to work.

I think I read about you complaining about screens somewhere else, the only one I can honestly say I havent had any success with is the WR middle one, but all the others I do pretty well with, I think you are just having some issues with screens not that they don't work.

[I OU a Beatn]

Bubble screens are worthless. The ball is never thrown the way it should be thrown and the blocking is usually messed up, too. Middle screens I don't have a problem with. They work the way they should most of the time, IMO. I've scored probably 20 touchdowns this year while running middle screens against zone. I love them. Bubble screens, on the other hand, are completely worthless against a human opponent. If you run it against a human, you're just asking for a pick or a minimal gain at best.

[ram29jackson]

AWESOME! We had a guy at work (plumbing) that liked to throw nails at people, I told him to stop and he didn't so I threw a 2 x 4 at him. That worked for a while, then he started again so when he went to get a drink of water from the water cooler on the truck I scooped a shovel full of sand up and threw it at him and in his drink. He stopped throwing nails at me.

well, ..so much for trying to kill construction worker stereotypes :D

[gigemaggs99]

well, ..so much for trying to kill construction worker stereotypes :D

Thanks I'm just trying to my part ;-)

After you tell someone 10000 times to stop and you get hit in the face a few times with nails, sometimes you can't beat them so you join them....annoying to stoop to his level but it worked. I've learned in life sometimes you have to drop to someone's level for them to understand you.

[umhester04]

Bubble screens are worthless. The ball is never thrown the way it should be thrown and the blocking is usually messed up, too. Middle screens I don't have a problem with. They work the way they should most of the time, IMO. I've scored probably 20 touchdowns this year while running middle screens against zone. I love them. Bubble screens, on the other hand, are completely worthless against a human opponent. If you run it against a human, you're just asking for a pick or a minimal gain at best.



I agree about the bubble screens. It seems to me like they dont work because sometimes once the ball is snapped the cb "knows" the play and moves right into position to swat the ball down. In real life there is at least a second or 2 of reaction time needed before the cb even makes his decision to converge on the bubble screen, and usually the WR has the ball already.

[baseballplyrmvp]

Thanks I'm just trying to my part ;-)

After you tell someone 10000 times to stop and you get hit in the face a few times with nails, sometimes you can't beat them so you join them....annoying to stoop to his level but it worked. I've learned in life sometimes you have to drop to someone's level for them to understand you.the guy i work with was telling me a story about a kid who used to work with him. the kid used to do all kinds of stupid shit like that- throwing nails, putting bent nails in they guy's tool belt when he wasnt looking, throwing roof screws, etc.

one day, the kid was up on a metal roof puting screws in it. it was pouring down rain and he had raingear on, so the guy went up in a man-lift to go get him off of the roof for lunch-time. the kid was bent over puting a screw in, when the guy yanked as hard as he could on the kid's cable that he was tied off to. the kid faceplanted into the roof and was said to have the rage of satan as he got up and started walking to the man-lift cage. :D