Offense and defense discussion

[gigemaggs99]

I know there used to be a sub-form for offensive and defensive talks but I can't find it, I think it used to be in the NCAA section.

I'm wanting to learn more, I've been reading about Bill Walsh's West Coast Offense, I see the playbook on Madden 15 and have been messing around with it on the practice field.

My question is, from reading online, I read where Tom Landry was famous for creating the "Flex defense" which seems to transfer over to current "Over, Under, Stack, etc.." formations in today's game. When they talk about his offense they never say what kind it was, not West Coast or Power run, etc...they just refer to it as "The System". On Madden 15, it looks similar to the Bill Walsh Off PB but it does include shotgun formations which seem to be against Bill Walsh's original design (from reading online I've never seen Bill Walsh's PB with Shotgun sets, only UC 'under center').

I guess what I'm trying to ask/learn find out, what are the major differences between the Offensive playbooks Walsh vs Landry? Does the EA game just have one made for Landry b/c he was famous or does it actually have some historical resemblance?

Here is a .pdf I've found on the 1968 Cowboys PB http://www.footballxos.com/download/...ys-Offense.pdf

Here are several articles on the West Coast Offense, all based off of Bill Walsh's http://www.footballxos.com/free-foot...coast-offense/

[steelerfan]

I'm no expert on the Cowboys offense under Landry but I know they used alot of shotgun. Prior to Landry, no one had used the shotgun much in like 40 years.

Conversely, I NEVER remember Walsh using the shotgun at all.

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[gigemaggs99]

Cool, that's what I'm seeing when I read online. Seems like Walsh was 100% UC and more on the mechanics of a proper 3,5 or 7 step drop.

I don't find much on Landry's offense other than he was the first to run Shotgun in the pros, then other teams started doing it. I find more on his defense, the "Flex Defense" so I was just trying to figure out the significance of the Tom Landry offense on Madden 15. There are only 3 Shotgun formations on the Landry Madden 15 OFF PB so it may be more of a general PB. It does include the 2 Split formations and 1 Near, which Landry would have referred to as a color, i.e. brown, green, red...etc..

[Rudy]

Walsh designed his offense to attack the basic 3-4 as well. Lawrence Taylor made the 3-4 incredibly popular so NFL teams started copying it but they didn't have LT. Furthermore they ran it poorly. Everyone looked for the "rusher" or "elephant" role like LT or Charles Haley and then just rushed them 90% of the time. If you are only rushing the one LB all the time it's just a glorified 4-3 with a stand up DE. So the 3-4 didn't work so hot and almost disappeared later on. The Dick LeBeau and that type of Steeler 3-4 defense which used all the LBs to blitz and disguise things started to become a lot more effective and thus popular. I love the 3-4 myself.

Walsh hated the 4 WR look. He loved having a TE and FB and a traditional offense in large part to his progression system. Having outside WRs and then slower inside TEs and then RBs out of the backfield all allowed each route to be run at slightly different times for true progressions. True progressions don't exist as much in the NFL anymore imo. Plays are designed to attack specific defenses and looks. They can run 4 WRs and have mirror routes on one side of the field vs. the other. It's all about getting the right play and attacking the right defense or person now. Pre-snap reads that dictate who to throw it to and quick throws are all the rage. Peyton takes less than 2.5 seconds to throw the ball.

[gigemaggs99]

Thanks Rudy!

I enjoy this type of discussion. I want to learn more about the nuts and bolts of football.

I figured it had to do with something like you're referring to b/c I've messaged around with the Bill Walsh PB on Madden 15, it's nice and different but without the shotgun formation, which I assume was installed to give the QB more time, when I run the Bill Walsh offense and try and wait for the FB or TE to run his route I usually end up getting sacked by the CPU. The LBs are too fast, so maybe on the game it's not the best offense to try and run since the FBs and TEs are all slower than most LBs.

Even when I do get the pass off to the FB or the TE it will be a minimal gain b/c they are caught from behind.

I like the old school mentality of the Landry or Walsh PB but neither seem to work very well against the newer faster defenses. I have better luck running out of shotgun or less traditional UC formations, less traditional than brown, red, etc....I've had a good time running the Rams PB, it seems like a nice balance.

I want to run the older styles though. I enjoy Stanford's style, so I guess San Fran would be a good choice to look.

Can you explain or clarify what the old mentality was then? If today's offenses are made to attack a coverage i.e. cover 1,2,3,4, etc. and exploit them, then what were the old-school offenses attempting to do? What mis-matches were they trying to exploit? Was it simply line up and hit the other guy harder?

In reading about Landry's offense it does seem like he did this to an extent, I read where it talks about them coming out in a base formation, Split normal for example, then the QB would read the Defense and then the offense would do their famous "shift" usually to another formation, I guess this "Shift" was a precursor to the current audible?

It also seems like these older styles would be better for college or high school where there is a greater mis-match in speed among the athletes on the field. It seems like in the NFL everyone has world-class speed.

[Rudy]

I can't answer that completely. Personally I think offenses in the 1970s and 1980s were a LOT simpler than they are today. Football has advanced so much more since back then. In the 1980s going with 3 WRs was considered exotic. Situational substitutions on offense and defense weren't really used until the 90s and then some coaches and fans complained it was hurting the sport. Now you have coaches complaining about tempo and no huddle so there is always push back against change. Back in the 1970s and Landry's era the QB called a lot of their own plays (maybe not for Landry who loved designing things). Bradshaw always called the plays. No QB today calls their own plays (Manning might have a lot of influence) unless it's no huddle time and even then they are getting suggestions.

Stanford's style is smash mouth football though with multiple TEs. Bill Walsh was not smash mouth and ran a lot of pro set formations. When Mariucci was the coach at SF he was criticized because his passing offense was average. The 49ers usually had a top 5 passing attack with RBs that could catch and also gain some yardage on the ground. They were a pass first team on offense and more finesse than power although they did have a good OL.