'Batman' Theater Shooting in Aurora, CO

[AustinWolv]

I didn't even watch the videos until now. That's you? Shit I don't even think I could have hit the dirt by the time you finished reloading.

Yep. Don't know why I copy/pasted the same video twice. LOL!
One from this past Saturday:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4hmiFElKgY

[skipwondah33]

Yep. Don't know why I copy/pasted the same video twice. LOL!
One from this past Saturday:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4hmiFElKgY

Sweet.

I see you were using your speed burst button during this, especially stage 3. You almost left everyone.

I'd like to get into shooting. Not competitively, just owning my own firearm

[AustinWolv]

LOL, it is good fun and slowly getting better. Still a learning experience every single time.

[JeffHCross]

And on another note this dude looks completely gone

He does, but this quote was thought provoking (from the same article):

Jordan Ghawi, whose sister Jessica was among the 12 fatalities, was not in the courtroom.
...
He described Holmes as a coward and a genius. "I don't believe for a second that he's sitting there with his wide eyes and pretending to be incoherent," Ghawi said. "He knows what he's doing."

[SmoothPancakes]

Addition to some of the arguments for others carrying, you have the deterrent factor. It was a dark theater, so if multiple people had pulled guns, he wouldn't have been able to specifically target them all and try and kill them first, especially not with the clouds of gas in the air distorting his view. If he saw multiple people with guns pointed at him, or was shoot by one of those guns, it very well may have ended the shooting spree sooner, either by taking him down (if he was indeed wearing a tactical vest and not a bulletproof vest), or by scaring him off if he's the one getting shot at and not the one doing the shooting.

Yes, others could have been hit, that will always be a possibility when guns are involved.

[AustinWolv]

He does, but this quote was thought provoking (from the same article):

Jeff, found that interesting and entirely plausible as well when I first read the description that he was just staring off into space, etc. Someone incoherent or "gone" doesn't align with the motivated individual who put all that thought and work into his apartment IED setup.

[skipwondah33]

He does, but this quote was thought provoking (from the same article):

Well of course I know that...that is why I said he "looks" gone. I know their defense will likely be that he is mentally incapable or something like that, just saying by first look of the guy I'm not surprised he would do such a thing.

Obviously anyone that does things of these nature have something wrong with them.

[SmoothPancakes]

Jeff, found that interesting and entirely plausible as well when I first read the description that he was just staring off into space, etc. Someone incoherent or "gone" doesn't align with the motivated individual who put all that thought and work into his apartment IED setup.

Yep, this shit was premeditated entirely and he knew exactly what the hell he was doing. To booby trap his apartment to such an extent that it took bomb squads days just to even disable the worst of it (but not all of it), as well as some smaller stuff they had no choice at all but to just plain blow the shit up because they couldn't disable it, there is no way in hell anyone would ever convince me even a tiny, tiny fucking bit that he was mentally incompetent. It took him months to do everything, ordering and building the bombs, buying the guns, ordering ammo and other stuff on the internet. No one will ever convince me this fucker went insane 6 months ago and did all of this shit while insane or incompetent.

[cdj]

Addition to some of the arguments for others carrying, you have the deterrent factor. It was a dark theater, so if multiple people had pulled guns, he wouldn't have been able to specifically target them all and try and kill them first, especially not with the clouds of gas in the air distorting his view. If he saw multiple people with guns pointed at him, or was shoot by one of those guns, it very well may have ended the shooting spree sooner, either by taking him down (if he was indeed wearing a tactical vest and not a bulletproof vest), or by scaring him off if he's the one getting shot at and not the one doing the shooting.

Yes, others could have been hit, that will always be a possibility when guns are involved.

I'd like to submit this story on why people carrying can be a huge benefit. I've bolded a line that I think is most important:

Spoiler: show

A 71-year old man thwarted a robbery at a Florida internet cafe on Friday when he shot two would-be assailants and the entire ordeal was captured on security tape.

The two robbers burst through the doors of the Palms Internet Cafe in Ocala and ordered everyone to get down as they waved a handgun at dozens of customers.

But they didn't expect Samuel Williams to pull out his own weapon and fire, injuring both of the criminals and saving the lives of his fellow Floridians.



Fox reports that the incident occurred just after 10 pm. on Friday.

The surveillance video shows the two men wearing dark clothes barged into the cafe with a baseball bat and a gun.

Witnesses told police that the robbers demanded that the 30 patrons get down on the floor and give them money.


Terrified customers put their hands up in the air, all of them following orders except for Mr Williams.

Kneeling slightly, Mr Williams starts shooting at the men, surprising them with his own attack.

The thugs scramble to exit, falling over each other as Mr Williams chases them out of the cafe.



Once he had sufficiently scared them off, he locked the door and waited for the police to come.

The two men got into a nearby car and fled, witnesses said.

Mr Williams told officers that he was scared the robbers would hurt someone, especially his wife who was sitting nearby him in the cafe.

Officers got a phone call shortly after about two men at a Marion Oaks home who were telling people they had been shot at a nearby baseball field in Ocala.

Investigators searched the field to find evidence of an attack, but found none and arrested the men.


Davis G. Dawkins, 19, and Duwayne Henderson, 19, were transported to Shands Hospital at the University of Florida in Gainesville.

In the heat of the moment, Mr Williams managed to shoot Dawkins' left arm and Henderson's left buttock and his right hip.

Neither one of the teens have a criminal record, authorities said, and both were charged with attempted robbery.

'I feel horrible. It doesn't feel good. It makes you think about life's decisions, and how you should live your life,' Henderson said to the Star-Banner at the jail on Saturday afternoon.

The teen said that they didn't plan to hurt anyone during the robbery, just grab some money and run.

'The gun was broken and rusty and wasn't loaded. Nobody was going to get hurt,' he told the paper; the plan was to 'barge in, get the money and leave.'

He said that neither of the two teens ever 'expected anyone to be armed.'


The two had started to collect cellphones to prevent patrons from calling the police when Mr Williams started shooting.

'I thought I was going to die,' he said. 'I turned around to run and my leg gave out. That was when I got shot. I hit the ground, and he was still shooting.'

The two escaped to a family friend's home in Marion Oaks where the residents called police.

Dawkins told officials that he had recently been an employee at the cafe but was fired, allegedly telling his friend Henderson that there was 'a lot of money there.'

The two hatched their plan to rob the cafe on Friday evening, police said.

Henderson remained in jail late Monday after failing to post $31,000 bond while Dawkins was released Sunday after posting an $11,000 bond.

Charges are not expected to be filed against Mr Williams.

'If he wouldn’t have been there, there could have been some innocent people shot,' Mary Beach, one of the would-be victims of the robbery told the Star-Banner. 'I think he is wonderful.'

Henderson, not surprisingly, isn't enthralled with Mr Williams. He thinks that the elderly man should have stopped shooting once he was already on the ground.

'I was down, and I’m not going to continue to shoot you,' he said.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...-door.html

In a lot of cases (and I think this may be one of them), if the gunman thought there was a chance of getting fired back at, they might not do it in the first place.

[cdj]

Addition to some of the arguments for others carrying, you have the deterrent factor. It was a dark theater, so if multiple people had pulled guns, he wouldn't have been able to specifically target them all and try and kill them first, especially not with the clouds of gas in the air distorting his view. If he saw multiple people with guns pointed at him, or was shoot by one of those guns, it very well may have ended the shooting spree sooner, either by taking him down (if he was indeed wearing a tactical vest and not a bulletproof vest), or by scaring him off if he's the one getting shot at and not the one doing the shooting.

Yes, others could have been hit, that will always be a possibility when guns are involved.

Here's a story on why people carrying can be a huge benefit. (I didn't hear about this until seeing it mentioned in comments regarding the CO Theater Shooter.) I've bolded a line that I think is worth noting:

Spoiler: show

A 71-year old man thwarted a robbery at a Florida internet cafe on Friday when he shot two would-be assailants and the entire ordeal was captured on security tape.

The two robbers burst through the doors of the Palms Internet Cafe in Ocala and ordered everyone to get down as they waved a handgun at dozens of customers.

But they didn't expect Samuel Williams to pull out his own weapon and fire, injuring both of the criminals and saving the lives of his fellow Floridians.



Fox reports that the incident occurred just after 10 pm. on Friday.

The surveillance video shows the two men wearing dark clothes barged into the cafe with a baseball bat and a gun.

Witnesses told police that the robbers demanded that the 30 patrons get down on the floor and give them money.


Terrified customers put their hands up in the air, all of them following orders except for Mr Williams.

Kneeling slightly, Mr Williams starts shooting at the men, surprising them with his own attack.

The thugs scramble to exit, falling over each other as Mr Williams chases them out of the cafe.



Once he had sufficiently scared them off, he locked the door and waited for the police to come.

The two men got into a nearby car and fled, witnesses said.

Mr Williams told officers that he was scared the robbers would hurt someone, especially his wife who was sitting nearby him in the cafe.

Officers got a phone call shortly after about two men at a Marion Oaks home who were telling people they had been shot at a nearby baseball field in Ocala.

Investigators searched the field to find evidence of an attack, but found none and arrested the men.


Davis G. Dawkins, 19, and Duwayne Henderson, 19, were transported to Shands Hospital at the University of Florida in Gainesville.

In the heat of the moment, Mr Williams managed to shoot Dawkins' left arm and Henderson's left buttock and his right hip.

Neither one of the teens have a criminal record, authorities said, and both were charged with attempted robbery.

'I feel horrible. It doesn't feel good. It makes you think about life's decisions, and how you should live your life,' Henderson said to the Star-Banner at the jail on Saturday afternoon.

The teen said that they didn't plan to hurt anyone during the robbery, just grab some money and run.

'The gun was broken and rusty and wasn't loaded. Nobody was going to get hurt,' he told the paper; the plan was to 'barge in, get the money and leave.'

He said that neither of the two teens ever 'expected anyone to be armed.'


The two had started to collect cellphones to prevent patrons from calling the police when Mr Williams started shooting.

'I thought I was going to die,' he said. 'I turned around to run and my leg gave out. That was when I got shot. I hit the ground, and he was still shooting.'

The two escaped to a family friend's home in Marion Oaks where the residents called police.

Dawkins told officials that he had recently been an employee at the cafe but was fired, allegedly telling his friend Henderson that there was 'a lot of money there.'

The two hatched their plan to rob the cafe on Friday evening, police said.

Henderson remained in jail late Monday after failing to post $31,000 bond while Dawkins was released Sunday after posting an $11,000 bond.

Charges are not expected to be filed against Mr Williams.

'If he wouldn’t have been there, there could have been some innocent people shot,' Mary Beach, one of the would-be victims of the robbery told the Star-Banner. 'I think he is wonderful.'

Henderson, not surprisingly, isn't enthralled with Mr Williams. He thinks that the elderly man should have stopped shooting once he was already on the ground.

'I was down, and I’m not going to continue to shoot you,' he said.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...-door.html

In a lot of cases, if the gunman thought there was a chance of getting fired back at, they might not do it in the first place.

[skipwondah33]

In a lot of cases (and I think this may be one of them), if the gunman thought there was a chance of getting fired back at, they might not do it in the first place.

Which made me post what I did below.

I agree definitely wouldn't have made things better. Though I wonder if people knew others were carrying if this kind of thing happens? Either way he was prepared to diffuse any type of defense anyone could have not only by the element of surprise but the fact he tear gassed the place.

[SmoothPancakes]

Here's a story on why people carrying can be a huge benefit. (I didn't hear about this until seeing it mentioned in comments regarding the CO Theater Shooter.) I've bolded a line that I think is worth noting:

Spoiler: show

A 71-year old man thwarted a robbery at a Florida internet cafe on Friday when he shot two would-be assailants and the entire ordeal was captured on security tape.

The two robbers burst through the doors of the Palms Internet Cafe in Ocala and ordered everyone to get down as they waved a handgun at dozens of customers.

But they didn't expect Samuel Williams to pull out his own weapon and fire, injuring both of the criminals and saving the lives of his fellow Floridians.



Fox reports that the incident occurred just after 10 pm. on Friday.

The surveillance video shows the two men wearing dark clothes barged into the cafe with a baseball bat and a gun.

Witnesses told police that the robbers demanded that the 30 patrons get down on the floor and give them money.


Terrified customers put their hands up in the air, all of them following orders except for Mr Williams.

Kneeling slightly, Mr Williams starts shooting at the men, surprising them with his own attack.

The thugs scramble to exit, falling over each other as Mr Williams chases them out of the cafe.



Once he had sufficiently scared them off, he locked the door and waited for the police to come.

The two men got into a nearby car and fled, witnesses said.

Mr Williams told officers that he was scared the robbers would hurt someone, especially his wife who was sitting nearby him in the cafe.

Officers got a phone call shortly after about two men at a Marion Oaks home who were telling people they had been shot at a nearby baseball field in Ocala.

Investigators searched the field to find evidence of an attack, but found none and arrested the men.


Davis G. Dawkins, 19, and Duwayne Henderson, 19, were transported to Shands Hospital at the University of Florida in Gainesville.

In the heat of the moment, Mr Williams managed to shoot Dawkins' left arm and Henderson's left buttock and his right hip.

Neither one of the teens have a criminal record, authorities said, and both were charged with attempted robbery.

'I feel horrible. It doesn't feel good. It makes you think about life's decisions, and how you should live your life,' Henderson said to the Star-Banner at the jail on Saturday afternoon.

The teen said that they didn't plan to hurt anyone during the robbery, just grab some money and run.

'The gun was broken and rusty and wasn't loaded. Nobody was going to get hurt,' he told the paper; the plan was to 'barge in, get the money and leave.'

He said that neither of the two teens ever 'expected anyone to be armed.'


The two had started to collect cellphones to prevent patrons from calling the police when Mr Williams started shooting.

'I thought I was going to die,' he said. 'I turned around to run and my leg gave out. That was when I got shot. I hit the ground, and he was still shooting.'

The two escaped to a family friend's home in Marion Oaks where the residents called police.

Dawkins told officials that he had recently been an employee at the cafe but was fired, allegedly telling his friend Henderson that there was 'a lot of money there.'

The two hatched their plan to rob the cafe on Friday evening, police said.

Henderson remained in jail late Monday after failing to post $31,000 bond while Dawkins was released Sunday after posting an $11,000 bond.

Charges are not expected to be filed against Mr Williams.

'If he wouldn’t have been there, there could have been some innocent people shot,' Mary Beach, one of the would-be victims of the robbery told the Star-Banner. 'I think he is wonderful.'

Henderson, not surprisingly, isn't enthralled with Mr Williams. He thinks that the elderly man should have stopped shooting once he was already on the ground.

'I was down, and I’m not going to continue to shoot you,' he said.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...-door.html

In a lot of cases, if the gunman thought there was a chance of getting fired back at, they might not do it in the first place.

Yep. These "no gun zones" are nothing but a false sense of security. If anything, it makes you nothing but a massively bigger target because the criminals and psychos know that virtually everyone in that place will not be able to defend themselves because they won't be armed. Unless you're dealing with gangs or something, a lot of these criminals are chicken-shits. If they think there's a chance they could get shot at, they aren't going to do something at a place. Those guys fit that category perfectly. They tried to rob the place because they thought there would be no one with a gun there and they would be able to do their thing. As soon as someone started shooting, they were running scared and trying to run away.

If the same had been the case at the theater, again, I personally think if even one person had been armed, the whole thing could have ended sooner, either by someone shooting and incapacitating the guy, or by scaring him off and out of the building when it goes from having run of the place to shoot as he pleases to unexpectedly being shot at in return. Yes, there will always be the risk of yourself hitting an innocent bystander from missing who you're shooting at, but that is always going to be a risk regardless of where you're at. It all comes down to personally deciding if it's a necessary risk.

The amount of time it would have taken police and even SWAT to get there, that guy could have killed into the hundreds if he had kept shooting everyone he could and even left that theater and maybe gone into another theater. He stopped shooting and left before the first police response had arrived at the theater. The death toll could have been so, so much higher. In a case like that night at the theater, yes, I feel the risk of possibly hitting an innocent person when firing back at the shooter would have been a justified and necessary risk. If you have the means to stop the attack by being armed and carrying a gun that night, or watch dozens more people get shot because of doing nothing to avoid accidentally hitting someone else other than the shooter, I don't see how you don't try and take down the shooter.

[morsdraconis]

I REALLY don't want to get into a gigantic discussion on this, but I'll just simply say this:

The US is #1 in the world in gun related crimes every year (not related to war or inability to police it's own country, mind you) and, if you add up the rest of the world's numbers, they aren't equal to the number the US averages.

The difference between the US and those other countries? We can legally buy as many guns as we want (not to mention buy ridiculously overpowered guns for no reason), while these other countries have laws that make owning anything besides a handgun that must be worn in plain view at all times illegal.

People in the US aren't more nuts than the rest of the world so there has to be another reason for shit like this to happen and the logical thing is not making guns like what he used and bought legally available at all. Sure, you can say things like, "He'll just get them illegally then." At least not making it perfectly legal to buy thousands of rounds of ammunition for a gun that can easily be made automatic instead of semi-automatic that is still legal to buy would be a deterrent from something like this happening.

[souljahbill]

Theaters may ban costumes.

Because costumes are the problem. #PleaseStopOverreatingAmerica

[skipwondah33]

Well this could have possibly ended worse if indeed his intentions were to do similar.

http://news.yahoo.com/3-arrested-sep...080930278.html

[AustinWolv]

'I was down, and I’m not going to continue to shoot you,' he said

Riiiiiight, because you bringing in a gun and threatening people was an act of passivity and friendliness and of course you had the best of intentions for the people you were robbing. Yeah, the people being threatened should have know that!

mors:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate
I suggest you don't go to Belarus given your logic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence
Oh what? Finland has a higher non-firearm murder rate than the US???
Australia has a lower firearm and non-firearm homicide rate than the US but allows citizens to own guns, as do other countries. Perhaps it is CULTURE and certain LIFESTYLES that perpetuate gun violence moreso than guns. How about fixing THAT, which would help with many other aspects of this lazy-ass, free-loading society that is being coddled, instead of blaming inanimate objects? Nah, just easier to make excuses and let people skate.
Your logic of overpowered guns is silly also, because, well..........
http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...d-in-homicides

Violent Crime in Europe and the USA
Violent crime in the US and Europe Overall robbery and assault rates in the United States are comparable to other developed countries, such as Australia and Finland, notwithstanding the much lower levels of gun ownership in those countries.

[a b Kleck, Gary (2004). "Measures of Gun Ownership Levels of Macro-Level Crime and Violence Research". Journal of Research in Crime and Delinquency 41: pp. 3-36. NCJ 203876.]

In Britain based on year 2000 statistics supplied by UK Home Office the following percentages of the population of these countries were exposed to crime. Among the countries compared the USA has the lowest number of incidents. The UK and Australia do not allow ownership of handguns. About 3% of the Germany population own firearms.
The lowest rate - for the year 200 period in the USA there were 11,605,751 incidents of reported crime based on a population of 300,000,000 (06) - 3.87% of the population was exposed to crime
Australia which does not allow ownership of handguns had a reported crime rate of 1,431,929 based on a population of 20,000,000 - 7.16% of the population was exposed to crime.
Germany with a population of 82 million (05) has a reported 6.264,723 crimes or 7.64% of the population was exposed to crime.
In Britain there were 5,170,843 incidents of reported crime to the police based on a population of 60, 587,000 (06) - 8.5% of the population was exposed to crime.
Highest rate - New Zealand with a population of 4,000,000 (06) had a reported crime with 427,230 incidents - 10.68% of the population was exposed to crime.

http://www.americanfirearms.org/statistics.php#11

Why the hell is this country allowing knives????

The number of handguns used in crime (approximately 7,500 per year) is very small compared to the approximately 70 million handguns in the United States (i.e., 0.011%) [Committee on Law and Justice (2004). "Chapter 4", Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review. National Academy of Science. ]

People with a criminal record are more likely to die as homicide victims.
Does Gun Prohibition Work?
Washington D.C. enacted a virtual ban on handguns in 1976. Between 1976 and 1991, Washington D.C.'s homicide rate rose 200%, while the U.S. rate rose 12%.

According to Crime in the United States 2004, second to firearms, knives and cutting instruments were the weapons most frequently used by persons committing homicides in the United States. Offenders employed knives to kill members of the general public more than they used rifles and shotguns combined.

http://www.americanfirearms.org/statistics.php#11

Banning so called assault weapons makes little sense. Assault weapons by definition are weapons with selective fire rates including fully automatic fire - machine guns. Machine guns were banned in the US in 1934. Military type arms sold in the US today are semi-automatic only, meaning you get one shot for each trigger pull. These weapons barely register in homicide statistics at all. They look good in the arms of politicians though. In 2005, 75% of the 10,100 homicides committed using firearms in the United States were committed using handguns, compared to 4% with rifles, 5% with shotguns, and the rest with a type of firearm not specified. Assault weapons are so rarely used they don't qualify for a separate category.

Shouldn't Switzerland be in complete disarray because of firearms being present?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1566715.stm
http://www.theblessingsofliberty.com...article11.html

[JBHuskers]

That's the thing with all this media glorification of shit like this. All discussion turns into mindless babble eventually.

[AustinWolv]

Good thing I don't pay much attention to the news anymore.

[cdj]

Christian Bale visited an Aurora, CO hospital today to meet with some of the victims and responders.

[jaymo76]

Here's a story on why people carrying can be a huge benefit. (I didn't hear about this until seeing it mentioned in comments regarding the CO Theater Shooter.) I've bolded a line that I think is worth noting:

Spoiler: show

A 71-year old man thwarted a robbery at a Florida internet cafe on Friday when he shot two would-be assailants and the entire ordeal was captured on security tape.

The two robbers burst through the doors of the Palms Internet Cafe in Ocala and ordered everyone to get down as they waved a handgun at dozens of customers.

But they didn't expect Samuel Williams to pull out his own weapon and fire, injuring both of the criminals and saving the lives of his fellow Floridians.



Fox reports that the incident occurred just after 10 pm. on Friday.

The surveillance video shows the two men wearing dark clothes barged into the cafe with a baseball bat and a gun.

Witnesses told police that the robbers demanded that the 30 patrons get down on the floor and give them money.


Terrified customers put their hands up in the air, all of them following orders except for Mr Williams.

Kneeling slightly, Mr Williams starts shooting at the men, surprising them with his own attack.

The thugs scramble to exit, falling over each other as Mr Williams chases them out of the cafe.



Once he had sufficiently scared them off, he locked the door and waited for the police to come.

The two men got into a nearby car and fled, witnesses said.

Mr Williams told officers that he was scared the robbers would hurt someone, especially his wife who was sitting nearby him in the cafe.

Officers got a phone call shortly after about two men at a Marion Oaks home who were telling people they had been shot at a nearby baseball field in Ocala.

Investigators searched the field to find evidence of an attack, but found none and arrested the men.


Davis G. Dawkins, 19, and Duwayne Henderson, 19, were transported to Shands Hospital at the University of Florida in Gainesville.

In the heat of the moment, Mr Williams managed to shoot Dawkins' left arm and Henderson's left buttock and his right hip.

Neither one of the teens have a criminal record, authorities said, and both were charged with attempted robbery.

'I feel horrible. It doesn't feel good. It makes you think about life's decisions, and how you should live your life,' Henderson said to the Star-Banner at the jail on Saturday afternoon.

The teen said that they didn't plan to hurt anyone during the robbery, just grab some money and run.

'The gun was broken and rusty and wasn't loaded. Nobody was going to get hurt,' he told the paper; the plan was to 'barge in, get the money and leave.'

He said that neither of the two teens ever 'expected anyone to be armed.'


The two had started to collect cellphones to prevent patrons from calling the police when Mr Williams started shooting.

'I thought I was going to die,' he said. 'I turned around to run and my leg gave out. That was when I got shot. I hit the ground, and he was still shooting.'

The two escaped to a family friend's home in Marion Oaks where the residents called police.

Dawkins told officials that he had recently been an employee at the cafe but was fired, allegedly telling his friend Henderson that there was 'a lot of money there.'

The two hatched their plan to rob the cafe on Friday evening, police said.

Henderson remained in jail late Monday after failing to post $31,000 bond while Dawkins was released Sunday after posting an $11,000 bond.

Charges are not expected to be filed against Mr Williams.

'If he wouldn’t have been there, there could have been some innocent people shot,' Mary Beach, one of the would-be victims of the robbery told the Star-Banner. 'I think he is wonderful.'

Henderson, not surprisingly, isn't enthralled with Mr Williams. He thinks that the elderly man should have stopped shooting once he was already on the ground.

'I was down, and I’m not going to continue to shoot you,' he said.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...-door.html

In a lot of cases, if the gunman thought there was a chance of getting fired back at, they might not do it in the first place.

I just don't buy this perspective of "deterrent." If that were the case Texas should have one of the lowest crime rates around due to the frequent use of he death penalty. If deterrent worked than the USA should not have one of the largest prison populations in the developed world. Personally I am of the philosophy of the fewer guns in society, any society, the better. Now let's put this in perspective though... my opinion on this is a minority voice on this forum (a liberal, non-gun owning Canadian who believes in healthcare and social welfare over warfare and who also who lives in Vcr, one of the most laid back cities in North America).