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Thread: The Definitive Guide To The Run & Shoot

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  1. #101
    Varsity Dr Death's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffHCross View Post
    Yeah, I think I mainly got lost when he talked about using a Go Route as an audible. Wasn't sure if he meant a hot routed Streak or a 60 Go.
    Yeah, I meant using 60 Go as an audible because of the quick pass to the inside slot receiver on the Trips side. In 5-Wide I use Inside Switch this way, it's a great play that has that one element of the 60 Go route, which I love.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by morsdraconis View Post
    Holy shit... I swear, one of these days, I'm going to read all this stuff Death. The R&S is INCREDIBLY fascinating to me, though the Air Raid has become my main center of attention what with WVU switching to it with the hiring of Holgorsen and all.
    Like you, I have become more and more intrigued w/ the Air Raid and actually consider myself more of an Air Raid person now because of my love of Mike Leach and his style. His offense does, however, have some elements of the R&S in it, so when you consider learning more about the R&S, you'll see some similarities. Talking real life here, not EA life.

    Quote Originally Posted by baseballplyrmvp View Post
    i think he's referencing both in these paragraphs. the play he's referring to is called 60 go, and obviously features the outside receiver(s) running a go/streak route.

    awesome writeup btw Dr D.
    Thank you my man!!! Much appreciated!!!

  3. #103
    Heisman morsdraconis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Death View Post
    Like you, I have become more and more intrigued w/ the Air Raid and actually consider myself more of an Air Raid person now because of my love of Mike Leach and his style. His offense does, however, have some elements of the R&S in it, so when you consider learning more about the R&S, you'll see some similarities. Talking real life here, not EA life.
    I'm not where close to as learned on the subject as you are, but, as a slight tangent on the subject of the Air Raid offense pertaining to the success of QBs from that system in the NFL, have you noticed a reason why QBs struggle coming from a system like the Air Raid or R&S offense when attempting to transition to the more complex offenses that most NFL teams run?

    I ask because I got into a pretty heated debate over that very fact when talking about the illogical notion that Robert Griffin will break the streak of unsuccessful NFL QBs that have come from an Air Raid and/or R&S system.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by morsdraconis View Post
    I'm not where close to as learned on the subject as you are, but, as a slight tangent on the subject of the Air Raid offense pertaining to the success of QBs from that system in the NFL, have you noticed a reason why QBs struggle coming from a system like the Air Raid or R&S offense when attempting to transition to the more complex offenses that most NFL teams run?

    I ask because I got into a pretty heated debate over that very fact when talking about the illogical notion that Robert Griffin will break the streak of unsuccessful NFL QBs that have come from an Air Raid and/or R&S system.
    Actually, yes, I can provide some insight to this question, though I'm quite certain some won't agree w/ me. There were two R&S QB's who were hugely successful in college and failed miserably as pro's, and they both played for . Andre Ware - Heisman winner, and David Klingler. Both were first round draft picks and neither did much of anything in the pro's. And because of their failures, ALL R&S QB's were labeled as "System Quarterbacks." It was a bad rap for guys ever since and something I find totally ridiculous.

    How they {The NFL} can blame someone today for the errors of two guys from the 1990's is beyond me, but they do. And I always hear the same excuses:

    1: The Run & Shoot can make any QB look good

    2: The Run & Shoot is simple and NFL offenses are not

    3: The Run & Shoot spreads the field and in the NFL, they have to adjust to playing w/ a TE and a FB

    Now, as to # 1, yes, the R&S can make a lot of QB's look better than they are simply because the offense creates many instances where WR's are wide open or at least more open than what one typically sees in the NFL. As far as # 2 goes, the R&S is anything but simple. When you have routes that may have as many as 12-16 reads depending on the defense, that takes someone w/ some intelligence and also requires a lot of work to get down.

    As far as # 3, that I do agree with but I also feel that the NFL is very slow to change. When the R&S was in the NFL everybody hated it except the teams running it. The three teams that ran it all made the play-offs, but teams hated defending it as can be witnessed by comments by some of the greatest defenders of all time, guys like Rod Woodson and Howie Long.

    I think that after Ware and Klingler the NFL just said: Screw these guys! I know a couple of Leach's QB's were given "shots" but they weren't given any time to grow and progress. B.J. Symons was drafted in the 7th round by the . He was there for one year, in NFL Europe for one year, then on the for one year, back to NFLE for one year and then the Arena League until the team he was on folded.

    Kliff Kingsbury was drafted by in round 6, and spent his rookie year on IR, then was waived the next year, signed w/ the where he was on the practice squad, played on the and later the before going to the CFL and is now a college coach as the OC for .

    Graham Harrell went undrafted, tried out for the , went to the CFL, and is now on where he will be the backup to Aaron Rodgers this year. Coach Mike McCarthy has spoken out about how impressed he has been w/ Harrell. Harrell also pulled off an amazing comeback for the in last year's pre-season, leading them to 11 points in the final :30+ seconds, coming back from 13-21 to a 24-21 win.

    Colt Brennan was drafted by in round 6, his rookie year he led all QB's in rating and completion percentage and led three 4th quarter comebacks in the pre-season and proved he could make all the throws. His second year, as he was fighting for the backup spot, he suffered two injuries and tried to play through them but ultimately was pulled off the field in the fourth pre-season game when it was evident he was too injured. He spent that year on IR. The following season Shanahan came in and kept Colt on the roster until after the first practice of training camp, then he was cut when they traded for John Beck, who's played like complete garbage his entire NFL career.

    Chase Daniel, the QB at , is Drew Brees' backup and has been for a couple of years. As the NFL slowly starts to expand its horizons and use more spread formations and becomes more of a throwing league, I believe you'll see more Air Raid and R&S QB's getting a shot and succeeding at the NFL level. This year alone we saw RGIII and Brandon Weeden taken in the first round. Both ran spread offenses in college, w/ using the Air Raid during part of Weeden's career.

    Mike Leach once quipped that the NFL doesn't have a clue when it comes to drafting QB's and whilst this didn't set well w/ NFL scouts, one has to agree w/ him to a certain extent. When guys like JaMarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, Joey Harrington, Jeff George and numerous others are taken high or first overall, and they either fail miserably {Russell} or take years to grow in maturity {George} you have to wonder just what does the NFL look for?

    The answer is simple; they always look for the arm strength. Bill Walsh once said that arm strength was one of the last things he looked for in a QB. Footwork was his number one thing, leadership and accuracy were close behind. And when you see what Walsh did w/ Joe Montana you can clearly see that he knew what he was talking about. Montana was a guy very few teams would have taken and only the were equipped to put him in an offense that suited him perfectly. And w/ that stroke of luck, Montana became arguably the greatest QB to ever play the game.

    So I believe we are starting to see a change and the failures of Ware and Klingler are starting to be forgotten. Let's hope so... because to me, a wide open passing game is just a lot more fun!

  5. #105
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    I definitely think that part of the reason why no QB worth a damn (in the NFL stat-wise) has come from either of these offensive styles is because they haven't truly been given the opportunity to work out. The amount of QBs that come from the 4th round or lower and play at a high level in the NFL is astonishingly low, so, the byproduct of the stigma of coming from one of those offenses plus means they are drafted in those lower rounds and, thus, their likelihood of succeeding in the NFL is dramatically low.

    All that said, my main proponent for not wanting my NFL team (Redskins) to draft someone (Griffin) from one of those offenses (Baylor HC Art Briles' [Mike Leach Disciple - as I'm sure you already knew] Air Raid offense) has, and always will be, the fact that the Air Raid offense, unlike the R&S offense, has simple reads. Mesh, Cross, Stick, Go, etc are such ridiculously simple reads that most QBs can quickly pick the offense up in the matter of one season (as shown by WVU's Geno Smith - who, btw, can't make a complex read to save his freakin' life and was the reason why the Pro offense that Bill Stewart was attempting to install was doomed from the start). They are made simple like that because college forces you to constantly have to reteach the same concepts over and over again as you get new kids on your roster and old ones graduate.

    Combine the easy to learn offense (for both the QB and WR) with the fact that because the offense is so effective at getting players into space (along with the speed of it giving teams the ability to have more opportunities for those plays in space to happen), and you have guys getting WIDE open in space where the QB doesn't have to make a perfect throw, just a good throw, for the play to be a big gain.


    It'll be interesting, in hindsight, to see what happens with this new crop of QBs coming from these offenses to a NFL that's starting to incorporate more and more of these style of offenses into their offensive gameplan.

  6. #106
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    The one thing that will really help is the fact that the NFL is making it easier each year to throw the ball. DB's are not allowed to touch a WR, along with the fact that Safeties and LB's cannot be enforcers over the middle anymore so any WR is willing to go across the middle. I also think this is why we are seeing so many WR's become successful in the NFL that are drafted low or not even drafted at all. Add to the fact that QB's are willing to hang in the pocket longer because they do not have to worry as much about paying for holding onto the ball, and it is just a recipe for success.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by morsdraconis View Post
    I definitely think that part of the reason why no QB worth a damn (in the NFL stat-wise) has come from either of these offensive styles is because they haven't truly been given the opportunity to work out. The amount of QBs that come from the 4th round or lower and play at a high level in the NFL is astonishingly low, so, the byproduct of the stigma of coming from one of those offenses plus means they are drafted in those lower rounds and, thus, their likelihood of succeeding in the NFL is dramatically low.

    All that said, my main proponent for not wanting my NFL team (Redskins) to draft someone (Griffin) from one of those offenses (Baylor HC Art Briles' [Mike Leach Disciple - as I'm sure you already knew] Air Raid offense) has, and always will be, the fact that the Air Raid offense, unlike the R&S offense, has simple reads. Mesh, Cross, Stick, Go, etc are such ridiculously simple reads that most QBs can quickly pick the offense up in the matter of one season (as shown by WVU's Geno Smith - who, btw, can't make a complex read to save his freakin' life and was the reason why the Pro offense that Bill Stewart was attempting to install was doomed from the start). They are made simple like that because college forces you to constantly have to reteach the same concepts over and over again as you get new kids on your roster and old ones graduate.

    Combine the easy to learn offense (for both the QB and WR) with the fact that because the offense is so effective at getting players into space (along with the speed of it giving teams the ability to have more opportunities for those plays in space to happen), and you have guys getting WIDE open in space where the QB doesn't have to make a perfect throw, just a good throw, for the play to be a big gain.


    It'll be interesting, in hindsight, to see what happens with this new crop of QBs coming from these offenses to a NFL that's starting to incorporate more and more of these style of offenses into their offensive gameplan.
    I appreciate your response and I think that Griffin III is going to be better than Luck as a pro. Call it a hunch. Part of my feeling on that is watching interviews w/ both of these guys and w/ RGIII I see something special, something intangible that I probably can't even explain, but I know it when I see it and I've seen it in other guys like Montana - Marino - Stabler - Elway - E. Manning etc... he just has that IT that makes people gravitate towards him and makes them want to be better.

    So for you, as a fan, I think you have much to look forward to.

    As far as the Air Raid, one of the beauties of that offense is that they have a small number of plays and they run them out of various formations. They can run the same play out of 4-wide, 3-wide w/ a TE, 3-wide w/ 2 RB's, 2-wide w/ 2 TE's and one RB and even 5-wide. That's one of the reasons the QB's so easily pick up the system, because, as Mike Leach said, 'It's easier to tell someone where to stand than to tell them a new route to run.'

    I know this; when the R&S was in the NFL it succeeded. It succeeded in the USFL too. And I believe the Air Raid could succeed in the NFL as well. Whether or not Shanahan brings any Air Raid concepts into his scheme remains to be seen. I know this about Shanahan; he's stubborn. So I rather doubt he'll add any new wrinkles that suit RGIII and help ease him in to the NFL game, but if he were smart, he would add about 12-15 Air Raid plays and mix those in w/ his version of the West Coast Offense.

    I'm pulling for RGIII big time. And like I said, in the end, I believe you'll be happy he was their choice.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by morsdraconis View Post
    I ask because I got into a pretty heated debate over that very fact when talking about the illogical notion that Robert Griffin will break the streak of unsuccessful NFL QBs that have come from an Air Raid and/or R&S system.
    I would generally agree with you, were we talking about Case Keenum or any of the other QBs who put up ungodly numbers without actually displaying above average talent on the field. I thought Griffin showed quite a solid head on his shoulders, which I think is what truly makes the difference between a legitimate QB and a QB who is the product of the system.

    I also think it's worth mentioning (again) that Mike Shanahan invented the Shallow Cross, which is the one of the main concepts used in the Air Raid. So if anyone can take an Air Raid QB and make them into an NFL QB, I think it's Shanahan. Think being the key word.
    Twitter: @3YardsandACloud

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Death View Post
    Actually, yes, I can provide some insight to this question, though I'm quite certain some won't agree w/ me. There were two R&S QB's who were hugely successful in college and failed miserably as pro's, and they both played for . Andre Ware - Heisman winner, and David Klingler. Both were first round draft picks and neither did much of anything in the pro's. And because of their failures, ALL R&S QB's were labeled as "System Quarterbacks." It was a bad rap for guys ever since and something I find totally ridiculous.

    How they {The NFL} can blame someone today for the errors of two guys from the 1990's is beyond me, but they do. And I always hear the same excuses:

    1: The Run & Shoot can make any QB look good

    2: The Run & Shoot is simple and NFL offenses are not

    3: The Run & Shoot spreads the field and in the NFL, they have to adjust to playing w/ a TE and a FB

    Now, as to # 1, yes, the R&S can make a lot of QB's look better than they are simply because the offense creates many instances where WR's are wide open or at least more open than what one typically sees in the NFL. As far as # 2 goes, the R&S is anything but simple. When you have routes that may have as many as 12-16 reads depending on the defense, that takes someone w/ some intelligence and also requires a lot of work to get down.

    As far as # 3, that I do agree with but I also feel that the NFL is very slow to change. When the R&S was in the NFL everybody hated it except the teams running it. The three teams that ran it all made the play-offs, but teams hated defending it as can be witnessed by comments by some of the greatest defenders of all time, guys like Rod Woodson and Howie Long.

    I think that after Ware and Klingler the NFL just said: Screw these guys! I know a couple of Leach's QB's were given "shots" but they weren't given any time to grow and progress. B.J. Symons was drafted in the 7th round by the . He was there for one year, in NFL Europe for one year, then on the for one year, back to NFLE for one year and then the Arena League until the team he was on folded.

    Kliff Kingsbury was drafted by in round 6, and spent his rookie year on IR, then was waived the next year, signed w/ the where he was on the practice squad, played on the and later the before going to the CFL and is now a college coach as the OC for .

    Graham Harrell went undrafted, tried out for the , went to the CFL, and is now on where he will be the backup to Aaron Rodgers this year. Coach Mike McCarthy has spoken out about how impressed he has been w/ Harrell. Harrell also pulled off an amazing comeback for the in last year's pre-season, leading them to 11 points in the final :30+ seconds, coming back from 13-21 to a 24-21 win.

    Colt Brennan was drafted by in round 6, his rookie year he led all QB's in rating and completion percentage and led three 4th quarter comebacks in the pre-season and proved he could make all the throws. His second year, as he was fighting for the backup spot, he suffered two injuries and tried to play through them but ultimately was pulled off the field in the fourth pre-season game when it was evident he was too injured. He spent that year on IR. The following season Shanahan came in and kept Colt on the roster until after the first practice of training camp, then he was cut when they traded for John Beck, who's played like complete garbage his entire NFL career.

    Chase Daniel, the QB at , is Drew Brees' backup and has been for a couple of years. As the NFL slowly starts to expand its horizons and use more spread formations and becomes more of a throwing league, I believe you'll see more Air Raid and R&S QB's getting a shot and succeeding at the NFL level. This year alone we saw RGIII and Brandon Weeden taken in the first round. Both ran spread offenses in college, w/ using the Air Raid during part of Weeden's career.

    Mike Leach once quipped that the NFL doesn't have a clue when it comes to drafting QB's and whilst this didn't set well w/ NFL scouts, one has to agree w/ him to a certain extent. When guys like JaMarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, Joey Harrington, Jeff George and numerous others are taken high or first overall, and they either fail miserably {Russell} or take years to grow in maturity {George} you have to wonder just what does the NFL look for?

    The answer is simple; they always look for the arm strength. Bill Walsh once said that arm strength was one of the last things he looked for in a QB. Footwork was his number one thing, leadership and accuracy were close behind. And when you see what Walsh did w/ Joe Montana you can clearly see that he knew what he was talking about. Montana was a guy very few teams would have taken and only the were equipped to put him in an offense that suited him perfectly. And w/ that stroke of luck, Montana became arguably the greatest QB to ever play the game.

    So I believe we are starting to see a change and the failures of Ware and Klingler are starting to be forgotten. Let's hope so... because to me, a wide open passing game is just a lot more fun!


    I have done a bootleg, cut and paste Run and Shoot in the Madden Online Leagues that I am in. Ive managed to make Tuna Sandwiches like Mark Sanchez and Kevin Kolb, look like halfway decent QBs.

    Ill be doing a ton of R&S and Air Raid vids, once the game gets in my hands. Mind if I slap em on this thread?

  10. #110
    Hall of Fame ram29jackson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nykia31 View Post
    I have done a bootleg, cut and paste Run and Shoot in the Madden Online Leagues that I am in. Ive managed to make Tuna Sandwiches like Mark Sanchez and Kevin Kolb, look like halfway decent QBs.

    Ill be doing a ton of R&S and Air Raid vids, once the game gets in my hands. Mind if I slap em on this thread?
    youll notice a couple threads where ive slapped alot of your vids on the site

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by nykia31 View Post
    I have done a bootleg, cut and paste Run and Shoot in the Madden Online Leagues that I am in. Ive managed to make Tuna Sandwiches like Mark Sanchez and Kevin Kolb, look like halfway decent QBs.

    Ill be doing a ton of R&S and Air Raid vids, once the game gets in my hands. Mind if I slap em on this thread?
    the more r&s guru's on here, the better, nykia. love listening to the vids that you make.

  12. #112
    Heisman morsdraconis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baseballplyrmvp View Post
    the more r&s guru's on here, the better, nykia. love listening to the vids that you make.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by nykia31 View Post
    I have done a bootleg, cut and paste Run and Shoot in the Madden Online Leagues that I am in. Ive managed to make Tuna Sandwiches like Mark Sanchez and Kevin Kolb, look like halfway decent QBs.

    Ill be doing a ton of R&S and Air Raid vids, once the game gets in my hands. Mind if I slap em on this thread?
    Sorry I didn't notice this earlier, but yes, anything anyone wants to contribute, please feel free to do so. I found a great article discussing the Air Raid, complete w/ videos, and I may start a thread on that offense and just paste the link. It's essential reading to anyone interested in the Air Raid and also very educational for anyone interested in football and particularly, the passing game.

  14. #114
    Heisman morsdraconis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Death View Post
    Sorry I didn't notice this earlier, but yes, anything anyone wants to contribute, please feel free to do so. I found a great article discussing the Air Raid, complete w/ videos, and I may start a thread on that offense and just paste the link. It's essential reading to anyone interested in the Air Raid and also very educational for anyone interested in football and particularly, the passing game.


    Please do!

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by morsdraconis View Post


    Please do!
    !!

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Death View Post
    Sorry I didn't notice this earlier, but yes, anything anyone wants to contribute, please feel free to do so. I found a great article discussing the Air Raid, complete w/ videos, and I may start a thread on that offense and just paste the link. It's essential reading to anyone interested in the Air Raid and also very educational for anyone interested in football and particularly, the passing game.
    Linky linky on article? That sounds like an awesome resource that I would love to read up on!

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  18. #118
    Oh wow, that's awesome! Thanks .

  19. #119
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    That's the link! The videos are great to watch and some are quite lengthy, but if you want to really learn about this offense {Air Raid} then this is essential. I may just start a new Air Raid thread, so it doesn't get buried in the R&S thread. Thanks HWill!!!

  20. #120
    Heisman morsdraconis's Avatar
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    Awesome! Thanks Hwill! I have SO much shit to do though so it's gonna be a while before I get around to reading that. Might end up doing some of that at work.

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