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Thread: The Definitive Guide To The Run & Shoot

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    The R&S won't work in-game until the spread rushing is consistent and reliable. Otherwise you're essentially restricted to only passing -- ever, which is counter to the philosophies of the Run & Shoot.
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    I ran this a little bit, i used a custom play book for georiga tech. you can change the close wr to block and he will run back to block, but you can run infront of him, and pich the ball back to him. Its a pass, run, pitch option thing. i could't find one in the game, so i made one. It works most of the time vs qb spy, 34,43 and dime. but it dies vs anything else.You can try what I said but it doesn't work well with sliders just pure heisman or ALL A, ect...



    You guys need to read the DF more, throw were their blizting from more. Use Lob passes, and try to avoid geting behind center if the guy blizting alot.

    One thing i did notice about the spread run is why do the blockers let go when the hb is even with them, it kills the play, no what im talking about?
    Last edited by Little Steve; 05-19-2012 at 05:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Steve View Post
    I ran this a little bit, i used a custom play book for georiga tech. you can change the close wr to block and he will run back to block, but you can run infront of him, and pich the ball back to him. Its a pass, run, pitch option thing. i could't find one in the game, so i made one. It works most of the time vs qb spy, 34,43 and dime. but it dies vs anything else.

    You guys need to read the DF more, throw were their blizting from more. Use Lob passes, and try to avoid geting behind center if the guy blizting alot. You can try what I said but it doesn't work well with sliders just pure heisman or ALL A, ect...


    its called knowing who to throw to on any given play. the "tips" you listed are some of the most generic tips one can give someone else for passing. they apply to every passing game; and are not just for the run & shoot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffHCross View Post
    The R&S won't work in-game until the spread rushing is consistent and reliable. Otherwise you're essentially restricted to only passing -- ever, which is counter to the philosophies of the Run & Shoot.
    agreed. until a true numbers advantage works in the game and run/pass blocking results are more predictable, the run aspect of the run & shoot wont be as successful as it will in real life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by baseballplyrmvp View Post


    its called knowing who to throw to on any given play. the "tips" you listed are some of the most generic tips one can give someone else for passing. they apply to every passing game; and are not just for the run & shoot.
    The part you highlighted was talking about what i said in the paragraph above

    I will fix it for you: Their, and yes there the basic tips, if you don't do the basic well. How do you stand a chance on the hard stuff.
    And they matter more to the r&s to any other one, get the ball out of your hands fast if you look at blizting or where thier falling back you can throw it into the gap faster and tear them apart. You want them on there heels and THEN use draws.

    Your a H fan, you probley know it better in real life but this is how it works well in the game from my experience
    Last edited by Little Steve; 05-19-2012 at 05:54 PM.

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    in this site's 360 od, i've been with for 2 1/2 seasons, and assuming my qb doesnt get injured, he'll finish with another 5500+ yard season. if my numbers for this season stay on pace, i'll have thrown for about 17,000 yards in 3 seasons with the run & shoot. i know how to run the run & shoot in the game, and the tips you listed dont even begin to help people properly run the run & shoot in the game. they may work for a beginner, but for the experienced vets on this site, everyone at least knows the basics. also, you said that you only ran the run & shoot a little bit. i run it exclusively. not trying to be an ass here, but i have the experience running it and you dont, so its fair to say that i have a better idea of how it works in the game than what you do.

    as i said above, you have to know who to throw to on every play. this is based entirely on your progression reads of the defense. you can call the same play 3 times in a row, get 3 completely different defensive looks, and the order of your progression reads will be different every time. you dont have to use lob passes, you dont have to use bullet passes, you dont have to throw where they're blitzing from. the thing that's gonna make it or break it when running the r&s is identifying what the defense is doing early, and knowing which route will open against it.

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    Plus, all you said is "have a pass play and hot route a WR to block", basically. That's no more Run & Shoot than any other pass play with a run option.
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    Dr. D,

    i need some reading material for something to do in my spare time. do you know of any place (besides smart football) or have any links/pdfs that'll breakdown various r&s plays against the typical 5 base coverages the r&s looks for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by baseballplyrmvp View Post
    Dr. D,

    i need some reading material for something to do in my spare time. do you know of any place (besides smart football) or have any links/pdfs that'll breakdown various r&s plays against the typical 5 base coverages the r&s looks for?
    PM your e-mail and I'll send you some .pdf files of the R&S as run by Mouse Davis in the early 1990's. Granted, June Jones has made some changes to it, like blocking for the O-line and putting the QB in Shot-Gun almost exclusively, but it's still the same basic principles of the offense. The Hawaii playbook I have is in a notebook and I don't have a scanner to put it on my computer and then send it as a .pdf, but I think the Mouse Davis one will make you happy.

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    Blood Sweat & Chalk was a good read, and I do believe it discussed the R&S.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffHCross View Post
    The R&S won't work in-game until the spread rushing is consistent and reliable. Otherwise you're essentially restricted to only passing -- ever, which is counter to the philosophies of the Run & Shoot.
    This is both right and wrong. Whilst Jones runs the R&S primarily in Shot-Gun now and trying to run draws, etc. out of the Gun in the game are pretty useless, you can go 4-wide, under center and use HB Dive and have great success running the ball. I never call it as a play, I use it as an audible, but have never averaged less than 5.5 per carry when doing this over the course of a season. There are also plays such as HB Slam and I think HB Counter that work as well.

    Of course, the last several years I have been in 5-wide more often than not, but I do know that the above mentioned plays will allow you to run successfully and even better when you use it as an audible. And running plays in the R&S are almost always called as audibles. I know in 1994-95 on the Falcons, every play they called in the huddle was a pass play, they only ran after seeing the defense at the line and calling an audible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Death View Post
    This is both right and wrong. Whilst Jones runs the R&S primarily in Shot-Gun now and trying to run draws, etc. out of the Gun in the game are pretty useless, you can go 4-wide, under center and use HB Dive and have great success running the ball.
    Well, yes. I was going to mention that, but I have a massive problem with the Ace formations in the R&S books in the game. One of the formations (it's been long enough that I can't remember if its the 2x2 or the 3x1) is solely Air Raid plays, the other is solely R&S plays. So you can't really run an R&S from under center in the game, unless you want to limit yourself to just one formation. Yes, there is a healthy amount of Air Raid concepts used in the R&S (or maybe I have it swapped, actually), but it's certainly not segmented out like it is in the game.

    When I run my offenses, my entire goal is that my opponent can't tell what's coming next by my formation. The under center options in the R&S in-game don't give that potential at all.

    And even if they were full of genuine R&S, you're still talking about 2 formations versus significantly more in the Gun. So until that Gun running works, it's difficult (at best) to really run the R&S in-game.
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    No, I was telling you what you can do with the r&s thats different. I wasn't telling you how to run it, i was telling you something new you can do with it. I created and option offence with in the r&s, i set my routs up so i can use pich backs. I set plays up with triple threats, im not telling you how to run it. Im telling you something you can do with it that is extremly difficult to defend. Ur running the basic kind, im saying combine your passing and your running by seting your self up to pich the ball. Use routs to set up pich backs, role out with your qb and have wr behind you to pich it back to, I wish i could upload a vid to show you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Steve View Post
    No, I was telling you what you can do with the r&s thats different.
    its a stupid setup, imo. you're losing a valuable receiving target on a passing play in order to use him as the pitch man if you decide to take off running. if i was running an offense that had a lot of option plays built into it, i'd maybe consider doing this, but out of a purely pass based, "modern" type of run & shoot, its pointless.

    whether you realize this or not, but in the r&s, a lot of the routes are combination based designed to attack certain defenders, forcing them to decide who to cover, in which the qb throws to the other target. by bringing that wr in to block, you're losing a part of that combination route, and not forcing the defense to choose who to cover anymore, thereby giving them better coverage. chances are, if you do this on a play, there's a higher probability that you'll take off running anyways. you wont sit in the pocket as long as what you would normally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Steve View Post
    Im telling you something you can do with it that is extremly difficult to defend.
    you said it works mostly well against 50% of the defenses, but fails miserably against anything else. thats not extremely difficult to defend, imo. not to mention, that if you're in a 4 wide, or 3wr/1 SB formations why would the defense be in a 43 or 34 defense in the first place? so then again, you're saying this setup only works against dime and qb spy plays. depending on personel, a lot of people prefer the nickel packages over pure dime formations anyways, so your case for doing this setup isnt something thats going to give people an instant advantage. personally, i'd rather have 4 wr's running around downfield, than having 3 with a 4th as a possible pitch option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Steve View Post
    Ur running the basic kind, im saying combine your passing and your running by seting your self up to pich the ball. Use routs to set up pich backs, role out with your qb and have wr behind you to pich it back to, I wish i could upload a vid to show you.
    the basic kind? of the run & shoot? there's no basic kind....there's no complex version of it. i'm running the modern version of it out of the gun/deep pistol, whereas i'm guessing you're running it from out of the single and double wing formations, which would be the more traditional version from the 80's and 90's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Death View Post
    PM your e-mail and I'll send you some .pdf files of the R&S as run by Mouse Davis in the early 1990's. Granted, June Jones has made some changes to it, like blocking for the O-line and putting the QB in Shot-Gun almost exclusively, but it's still the same basic principles of the offense. The Hawaii playbook I have is in a notebook and I don't have a scanner to put it on my computer and then send it as a .pdf, but I think the Mouse Davis one will make you happy.
    THANK YOU SO MUCH for this. wow! this is gonna help tremendously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffHCross View Post
    Well, yes. I was going to mention that, but I have a massive problem with the Ace formations in the R&S books in the game. One of the formations (it's been long enough that I can't remember if its the 2x2 or the 3x1) is solely Air Raid plays, the other is solely R&S plays. So you can't really run an R&S from under center in the game, unless you want to limit yourself to just one formation. Yes, there is a healthy amount of Air Raid concepts used in the R&S (or maybe I have it swapped, actually), but it's certainly not segmented out like it is in the game.

    When I run my offenses, my entire goal is that my opponent can't tell what's coming next by my formation. The under center options in the R&S in-game don't give that potential at all.

    And even if they were full of genuine R&S, you're still talking about 2 formations versus significantly more in the Gun. So until that Gun running works, it's difficult (at best) to really run the R&S in-game.
    Yes Jeff, I feel your pain. A couple years ago when they announced they had the R&S in the game, I was so excited. Then they ran their little video talking about the new offenses - R&S - Air Raid - and they said: "The R&S is for those who like to throw the ball 50-60 times a game."

    Seriously??? If this is what EA thinks of the R&S then where does one begin to explain the offense to them??? And this is why I spent so long trying to get w/ them to help them out, because this offense is quite intricate, takes a lot of time to get down, takes someone who can read a defense just like reading a book and has way more than the 4 plays that they have of it in the game.

    Most of the so-called R&S plays in the game aren't even R&S plays - they're plays that have been in the game {EA Games} for years.

    Another massive failure on EA's part is when the R&S is under center, they always have the QB drop straight back. This is wrong. As most know, the QB always had a half roll to the right or left when under center, but EA doesn't have that in the game either. Which is very frustrating. They claim - this year - that they are trying to "teach" proper drops for QB's but they have so-called offenses in the game that are grossly misrepresented. This is not teaching - it is misleading.

    Now as far as what offense has parts of what other offense in it... the basic chronology is like this:

    R&S - This actually started life in the late 50's/early 60's, but it wasn't until Mouse Davis began using it in the mid-70's that it took shape and became what we know of it now. Since then, June Jones has made subtle changes to it including adding elements of the West Coast Offense to it

    West Coast Offense - Bill Walsh began tinkering w/ the idea for this offense when he was in Cincinnati {Bengals} in the early-mid 70's. Once he arrived in San Francisco he added "Option Routes" that were/are prevalent in the R&S

    Air Raid - This offense is a combination of three offenses: The Offense that BYU ran in the 80's - the West Coast - The R&S. One major difference in the Air Raid are the wide O-line splits, another thing EA doesn't put in the game. The wide line splits help in two areas: One, they force the DE's {defensive ends} out further from the QB, thus making it harder - and longer - for them to get to the QB, it also opens up running and passing lanes. And, if the D tries to blitz through the wider gaps, it makes for quick, easy completions over the middle of the field.

    As far as formations, the R&S has two. Either 2 X 2 or 3 X 1 - which would be Trips to one side or the other. Where EA needs work is on the running game in Shot-Gun and they also need to implement a proper Shovel Pass; a staple in the R&S as well as the Air Raid.
    Last edited by Dr Death; 05-20-2012 at 01:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steelerfan View Post
    I also disagree that the Oilers offense takes no blame for the collapse in Buffalo. They were unable to chew the clock and had numerous extremely short drives which kept Buffalo alive (3 and out, 3 incompletions).
    UPDATE: As promised Steelerfan, I popped in the game today between Buffalo and Houston in the 1992 playoffs and here is what happened in the 3rd quarter:

    The Bills received the opening kickoff and Reich had a pass go through his TE's hands and was intercepted by Bubba McDowell and returned 58 yards for a TD. Score is now 35-3. On the ensuing kickoff the Oilers tried a squib kick, something they had done w/ success in the first half, but this time the Bills were ready for it, recovering it at midfield. They then went 50 yards and scored a TD, converting one 4th and 2, making the score now 10-35.

    The Bills lined up for the kickoff and the announcers {Charlie Jones and Todd Christensen} were amazed that the Oilers were NOT lined up for an onside kick. The Bills did onside kick and recovered at their own 48. Then Reich hit Don Beebe on a 9 yard pass that was low. Beebe went down for the pass and lifted his hands up to show he caught it, however, when doing this he then fumbled the ball which was recovered by CB Steve Jackson. However, the officials ruled Beebe was down, even though it was very clear he was NOT touched down and Christensen made a big point of this. The Oilers should have had the ball at their 45, still up 35-10.

    A few plays later Reich hits Beebe on a 38 yard TD pass but again, this should not have been allowed. Beebe had 2, and possibly 3, feet out of bounds. You see his right foot on the line, out of bounds, then his left foot, then his right foot is hard to tell if his heel is out or not, but clearly two feet were out of bounds, which should have resulted in a 5 yard penalty and loss of down. However this was not called either. Score now 17-35.

    With 7:20 to play in the 3rd quarter the Oilers finally went on offense. Moon hit a 3 yard pass, then White ran for 0 yards, then on 3rd and 7 Moon threw a perfect out pass but Bills safety Jeff Kelso made a great play, getting a finger tip on the ball and deflecting it into the receivers chest, forcing a drop. Then Montgomery punted the ball a whopping 25 yards, giving Buffalo possession at their own 41. The Bills then went down and scored again, this time Reich hitting Reed when the Oiler defender was in a zone but got caught looking in the backfield, allowing Reed to get behind him.

    Score is now 24-35.

    On the ensuing Oiler drive Moon completes a pass but an illegal motion penalty negates that, putting them in a 1st and 15. Moon then throws a pass that goes off the receivers hand and is intercepted, the Bills return that to the 23. They then score again, converting a 4th and 5 from the 18 and Reich hits Reed on an 18 yard TD. Score is now 31-35. Bills have converted two 4th downs and the Oilers have run all of 4 plays on offense. The Bills scoring drives were 50, 52, 59 and 23 yards. Only one of those drives could be blamed on the Oilers offense.

    What this proves is this: Your claim that they had numerous short drives, and 3 & outs w/ 3 incompletions is wrong. They were up 35-3 and ran 4 total plays and the score went to 35-31.

    From that point on Moon was 16 of 25, including leading a last minute drive that resulted in a game-tying FG that sent the game into OT.

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    Well, you give the opposing offense the opportunity at 4 TDs while only running 4 offensive plays, I don't care how good your defense is, they're going to get gassed.

    And I definitely need to watch that game again. I don't remember any of that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffHCross View Post
    Well, you give the opposing offense the opportunity at 4 TDs while only running 4 offensive plays, I don't care how good your defense is, they're going to get gassed.

    And I definitely need to watch that game again. I don't remember any of that.
    Yes, but the Oiler offense wasn't to blame. The Bills had the ball and threw a pick, then they recovered a botched squib kick at midfield, then they recovered an onside kick. The Oiler offense didn't take the field until 7:20 left in the 3rd period and the score was 35-17 and Buffalo was gaining momentum. Of course two missed calls by the refs didn't help either. If you have the game, I urge you to watch it, you'll see what I mean.

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    I have two copies of the game, actually Both the NFL network's recent Greatest Games broadcast, and the DVD.

    I know it's not the offense's fault, I was mostly saying that the defense didn't really have a chance in hell either. The only thing that would have stopped the Bills, given that many chances in a row, was the Bills themselves.
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