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  1. #1
    Freshman Bohica1010's Avatar
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    ATH Players

    Do we already have a thread where we discuss the pros and cons of leaving them as ATH or switching them to a specific position.

  2. #2
    Administrator gschwendt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bohica1010 View Post
    Do we already have a thread where we discuss the pros and cons of leaving them as ATH or switching them to a specific position.
    During position changes, you have to move them to a position. You don't have an option to keep them as an ATH.

  3. #3
    Booster JeffHCross's Avatar
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    ( Beaten by G )

    If you don't manually move the ATH, the CPU will do it for you.
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  4. #4
    Freshman Bohica1010's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info guys! I have always changed them so I have never seen the computer do it for me. But I have always been curious.

  5. #5
    All-American Jayrah's Avatar
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    Here's the thing: We should be able to keep them as ATH, and line them up in appropriate positions for their talents. I think that we should also have an option to move them to a specific position to maximize their potential, but if we want to move a WR to ATH, so that we can also line him up at HB and another user in a user game can see "exactly" what you have on the field, we should be able too. Now if we do move the player to that position, his ratings at any position you put him at should take a hit. But he should be rated at multiple positions and you should be able to line him up in multiple positions.

  6. #6
    Booster JeffHCross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayrah View Post
    But he should be rated at multiple positions and you should be able to line him up in multiple positions.
    You can line anybody up at multiple positions, and, yes, their ratings do take a hit. Is it more of a hit than you get if you declare that player for that position? Maybe, I don't know. But I don't know of any practical difference an ATH staying at ATH versus moving to his best position would give you. The OVR is the same (sometimes better), so I assume that their "best"/"default" position gives the best AWR rating.

    I agree with you that in the ideal circumstance, an ATH would be an ATH would be an ATH. However, there are some things that would have to be significantly re-worked (position minimums and CPU depth charts, for example), and I don't think that trade-off is worth it. Especially since, off the top of my head, I'm not sure there's a true disadvantage to moving an ATH to his best position.
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  7. #7
    All-American Jayrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffHCross View Post
    You can line anybody up at multiple positions, and, yes, their ratings do take a hit. Is it more of a hit than you get if you declare that player for that position? Maybe, I don't know. But I don't know of any practical difference an ATH staying at ATH versus moving to his best position would give you. The OVR is the same (sometimes better), so I assume that their "best"/"default" position gives the best AWR rating.

    I agree with you that in the ideal circumstance, an ATH would be an ATH would be an ATH. However, there are some things that would have to be significantly re-worked (position minimums and CPU depth charts, for example), and I don't think that trade-off is worth it. Especially since, off the top of my head, I'm not sure there's a true disadvantage to moving an ATH to his best position.
    I know you can do it but another user can't see exactly what you have on the field. It's mostly important for OD. When you line a WR up at RB, it still shows the guy as a on the Offensive players list while you're choosing defense. It's confusing and other users don't like it.

  8. #8
    Booster JeffHCross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayrah View Post
    I know you can do it but another user can't see exactly what you have on the field. It's mostly important for OD. When you line a WR up at RB, it still shows the guy as a on the Offensive players list while you're choosing defense. It's confusing and other users don't like it.
    I don't follow. In that case you'd rather he show up as an RB (the position he's lined up at), or be able for it to just say "ATH" (which would be even more generic and confusing). I can agree with the former, except that when I see Percy Harvin break the huddle, I don't know where he's going to line up on the field. There's no strategy if the Gators (or Vikings) had to declare "He's going to be at RB this play!". That said, I can see the frustration.
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  9. #9
    All-American Jayrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffHCross View Post
    I don't follow. In that case you'd rather he show up as an RB (the position he's lined up at), or be able for it to just say "ATH" (which would be even more generic and confusing). I can agree with the former, except that when I see Percy Harvin break the huddle, I don't know where he's going to line up on the field. There's no strategy if the Gators (or Vikings) had to declare "He's going to be at RB this play!". That said, I can see the frustration.
    You don't necessarily know where he's going to line up but you can make an educated guess based on the other players in the package as a D-coordinator. In game you don't have the luxury of seeing the actual players in the package, so all you can see is what type of players there are. It's only fair to bring him in as an "RB" in a 3 wide set (for example) so that the defense can line up in the proper or corresponding package. There are still offensive sets that allow you to take advantage of personnel groupings by odd alignments, but if you see a 4 wide set with a TE (as it is currently if you take a wr and line him up at rb) you're defense is gonna go dime or quarter when in reality it's a 3 wide set with your "ath" as your RB. The way the game depicts your awareness as a D-coordinator, it's the only way to fairly move players from their position without switching multiple players to "show" the correct personnel package.

  10. #10
    Administrator gschwendt's Avatar
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    Now that I understand better what you're asking for... it does already tell you who is in the huddle (ie who's participating in the next play). If you notice, on the screen that lists 1QB 3WR 1HB 1TE (or whatever order it's in), it also lists the players' numbers below each grouping. So if you know your opponent's WR #14 is a slash-type player, you can see that he is indeed on the field so you need to account for him as a possibility of being at either position.

    I'm not at home so I can't give you a screenshot of what I'm talking about but the next time you play the CPU, look at that screen that lists the personnel for the offense's playcall.

  11. #11
    All-American Jayrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gschwendt View Post
    Now that I understand better what you're asking for... it does already tell you who is in the huddle (ie who's participating in the next play). If you notice, on the screen that lists 1QB 3WR 1HB 1TE (or whatever order it's in), it also lists the players' numbers below each grouping. So if you know your opponent's WR #14 is a slash-type player, you can see that he is indeed on the field so you need to account for him as a possibility of being at either position.

    I'm not at home so I can't give you a screenshot of what I'm talking about but the next time you play the CPU, look at that screen that lists the personnel for the offense's playcall.
    Yes I know that the #s are there but the time goes so fast you can't find it unless it stands out in time to make an educated play call. There needs to be a "give away" that he's on the field so that it's easy to see.

  12. #12
    Heisman baseballplyrmvp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayrah View Post
    Yes I know that the #s are there but the time goes so fast you can't find it unless it stands out in time to make an educated play call. There needs to be a "give away" that he's on the field so that it's easy to see.
    i dont think the game does this, but for that statement, i think an easy thing would be to have the stars for the impact players show up in the personnel listing.

  13. #13
    Booster JeffHCross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baseballplyrmvp View Post
    have the stars for the impact players show up in the personnel listing.
    You mean the around their number? I actually thought it did that already.
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  14. #14
    All-American Jayrah's Avatar
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    No not quite. Impact players aren't necessarily the "ath" players that line up at different positions. I mean for any player that is in any personnel grouping outside of his natural position (say for example in a formation sub) there needs to be a show all the time. I want to know that he's on the field. Impact players show up but I want to know is this a guy that might be in a different formation than his normal? I had my 3rd WR as my rb in select pistol sets a couple years back because of his speed. Since we don't get true scouting, the game should show my opponent that he will be on the field (and therefore could be a wr or rb) so that they can guess while knowing they're guessing, as opposed to assuming that he is a wr and unfairly picking a corresponding package.

  15. #15
    Booster JeffHCross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayrah View Post
    I want to know that he's on the field.
    But you do know he's on the field. It shows you exactly who is on the field (which, I have to point out, is more information than a D-coordinator will necessarily get in time to choose their own defensive personnel). No, it doesn't show where they're lining up, but there has to be some strategy at play here, doesn't there? There is nothing to stop me from lining up an Empty Set formation with 3 TEs, 1 FB, and 1 HB. Yes, when the playcall screen shows you that, it's going to look like Goalline (or I-Form Heavy). But that's no different from if you saw them breaking the huddle (or coming onto the field). You aren't going to know where they're going to lineup until they do lineup. And, in my opinion, that's how it should be.

    And, FWIW, there is really no difference between lining up an "ATH" at different positions and any other skill player. Packages allow a lot of different combinations that result in players being out of their "natural" positions. RBs at WR, TEs at FB, WRs at RB.

    The only "giveaway" I'm aware of is that there used to be a different order to how the positions were shown for a Wildcat formation versus a traditional formation. And, personally, I thought that even that was tipping the offensive hand a tad too much.

    As for scouting, I assume you're talking Random Online or Play Now? Because in an OD, that's pretty much on you...
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  16. #16
    All-American Jayrah's Avatar
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    Jeff, how am I supposed to know that my opponent is going to line this guy up at different positions? I have no game tape to review or anything like that. I can't "scout" formations, just stats, which don't necessarily tell you anything.

    And a real life DC DOES know who's on the field. That's why they stay in their press box.

    But I do get your point a little bit. I think I'll have to have a conversation with my OD players and see if we can't come to an understanding about it. The reason I bring it up at all is because a couple seasons ago I was using an "ath" Wr in the backfield in some of my pistol and SG formations and the argument against it was exactly what I'm arguing for right now. I actually agree with you guys, but I'm making the argument because it's come up as an issue within my OD. I felt it was fair to line up the Wr at Rb only if I lined up my Rb at Wr, that way the other team can at least truly see that it's a rb formation.

  17. #17
    Booster JeffHCross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayrah View Post
    Jeff, how am I supposed to know that my opponent is going to line this guy up at different positions?
    My general point, which I think you got, was that there's nothing to preclude anyone from lining up anywhere, thanks to packages, formation subs, and the like.

    And, to your point about ODs, unless it's Week 1, chances are there is some indication, statistically, of how I use my superstars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayrah View Post
    And a real life DC DOES know who's on the field. That's why they stay in their press box.
    Maybe, maybe not. Honestly, that's one of the things I've always wondered ... how closely they can tell who's on the field/off the field. Though I guess binoculars would help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayrah View Post
    I felt it was fair to line up the Wr at Rb only if I lined up my Rb at Wr, that way the other team can at least truly see that it's a rb formation.
    Speaking solely from a strategic standpoint, I see no incentive to tip my hand like that. But, it should probably be mentioned that I love the mind games aspect of football.
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  18. #18
    All-American Jayrah's Avatar
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    I love the minds game too. I think the major problem is the inability to truely "match up" with any one player, regardless of where he goes in the set. Match up stick (at least I think that's what this is for?) would really be great and nullify the argument altogether. Also the inability to move a single player and control another on defense doesn't help either.

  19. #19
    Heisman souljahbill's Avatar
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    They need to fix the wildcat plays so that it's not obvious that they're in the wildcat from the playcall screen.

  20. #20
    All-American Escobar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by souljahbill View Post
    They need to fix the wildcat plays so that it's not obvious that they're in the wildcat from the playcall screen.

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