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JeffHCross
09-13-2010, 09:01 PM
Kotaku with a very good article over the weekend about NHL 11 and the sports genre as a whole. The article brings up a lot of good points about the genre. As discussions on Utopia, Operation Sports, and here have expanded on the sales of NCAA and Madden (and whether they're going up or down), I've begun to wonder what the state of the entire genre is.

This article discusses that point in pretty good depth. Namely, that even hardcore sports fans can be overwhelmed by trying out a new sports game. Even experienced sports gamers, I think, would be overwhelmed trying a new title.

I've expressed surprised that sports games have pretty much ignored any kind of 'tutorial' mode, while other genres have fully embraced the idea of using the first level for a tutorial. And no, I don't believe videos (which are largely absent from this year's titles) or Practice Mode suffices.

http://kotaku.com/5635627/a-game-harder-than-its-hardcore-fans

Basically, I think the sports genre is going in a direction where the primary audience is not going to be hardcore gamers or hardcore sports fans ... but solely hardcore sports gamers. And that audience, I believe, is shrinking.

steelerfan
09-13-2010, 09:48 PM
Sad that they pick a guy who knows nothing about hockey to review NHL 11.

Rudy
09-14-2010, 04:50 AM
I thought the same thing. The guy reviewing it knows nothing about hockey and he's going to review it?

I do agree about the whole tutorial thing. I never really played many non sports games until the last few years. My disappointment in next gen football pushed me into trying games like Uncharted, inFamous, etc. and I'm better off for it. Even though I was clueless the initial stages of a game ease you into the game and have help menus pop up indicating what button you need for a certain action, etc. In no time I was up to speed and comfortable with the controls.

When I bought NBA Live 09 (College Hoops 2K6 was my last basketball game) it did throw me for a loop at first. The amount of sliders and controls did take a while to learn. Football probably has the most complicated control scheme IF you want to fully take advantage of line adjustments, etc. I'll be honest - I don't even know how to use a smart route on offense in NCAA 11. I just call the play and execute it. I do think sports games have gotten over complicated but it also gives us full control. I don't know what the best system is but I do think a tutorial mode would help. It would have been nice if the NCAA team kept in their games like bowling or added a game like Tackle Alley for people to have fun and learn the controls at the same time.

morsdraconis
09-14-2010, 10:54 AM
Sad that they pick a guy who knows nothing about hockey to review NHL 11.

That's just Kotaku. They don't do sports titles very often.

In the end, I completely agree. I picked up NHL 10 last year after I got bored of NCAA and Madden and I was confused as hell trying to play it and pretty much only played a few games and then never touched it again.

The thing people have to realize with football is it's really as deep as you want to make it. Wanna pick up the game, throw the ball around, run the ball down the CPU's throat, etc? Play on Pro/Varsity level. Play the game a bit and get used to the controls and then you can start adding concepts from real football. Then, once the game gets too easy for you on Pro/Varsity, progress to All Pro/All-American and work your way up from there. It's what I did so long ago with Madden 02, 03, and 04.

steelerfan
09-14-2010, 11:51 AM
I did start a thread not too long ago asking if it was tougher to be a noob to a sports title or a vet who has the controls changed up on him. So, I've definitely thought about it. In that thread, I said that I'm glad I've played every version of the NHL series because it would be overwhelming if I were new.

I don't want to see things dumbed down, but some way to make it more accessible to the masses is a good idea. Honestly, if someone is a big gamer, is a hockey fan, and has the desire to learn the game - they will. There are modes, control schemes, and full hockey games for casual fans/gamers.

skipwondah33
09-14-2010, 01:45 PM
I honestly don't think sports games are too hard for the Sports Fan. As a hardcore sports gamer predominantly my entire life since Tecmo Bowl, I tend to overcomplicate things in games because I've been playing a particular series for so long and think I know what to expect. Really to me each year of a game is "new" because something is implemented that wasn't before, so its a learning process all over again. I know in the case of Madden particulary since 08, the way I play game has changed year by year. The same things that I did in 08, didn't work in 09, and so on.

To the person just picking the game up who just loves football, doesn't need to worry about "old way" vs "new way", or things that were prevelant in previous years. So its easier to digest, then for the person who has been playing the game for years will see something and say "hey thats something new they added"

Then again the hardcore sports fan may think that Chris Johnson should be as unstoppable in a video game as he is in real life, and if they can't do that maybe it does seem too hard.

steelerfan
09-14-2010, 01:51 PM
Chris Johnson should be as unstoppable in a video game as he is in real life

We'll see if he's unstoppable this weekend. ;)

morsdraconis
09-14-2010, 01:51 PM
I don't want to see things dumbed down, but some way to make it more accessible to the masses is a good idea. Honestly, if someone is a big gamer, is a hockey fan, and has the desire to learn the game - they will. There are modes, control schemes, and full hockey games for casual fans/gamers.

Oh I certainly agree with that and I'd definitely not want things dumbed down either.

Personally, for me, I'm as casual as you can get with hockey so I know very little about the game in general and much less about the mechanics and such so it was more out of curiosity since there was so much about how great the game more than anything else.

steelerfan
09-14-2010, 02:06 PM
Oh I certainly agree with that and I'd definitely not want things dumbed down either.

Personally, for me, I'm as casual as you can get with hockey so I know very little about the game in general and much less about the mechanics and such so it was more out of curiosity since there was so much about how great the game more than anything else.

I understand, bro. I'm sure a casual football fan would feel just as lost with NCAA or Madden.

To me, it's a fine line to walk for devs. There are certainly an infinite number more of casual fans so the demographic is appealing. However, casual fans don't tend to buy the game every year. Thus, you'd better keep the hardcore fans happy. Circa 2003, NHL was very arcadey and it suffered. 2k made them straighten up. Then a couple years ago 2k fell hopelessly behind NHL and went the arcadey route. 2k may as well quit making hockey games now. The arcadey route is not a great idea in sports anymore.

Rudy
09-14-2010, 02:11 PM
I think there is a huge case of hypocrisy (sp?) among gamers. They want realism but often they want one-sided realism. They want to take Chris Johnson and rush for 125 yards a game and get frustrated anytime they are held to 50 yards. But when they play against Chris Johnson they get pissed when he starts converting a lot of 1st downs and they can't stop him en route to 125 yards claiming the game is cheating etc. That's why EA football games have such lousy cpu rushing games on default settings because there is nothing more frustrating to someone than having a team run all over you.

I've read a lot of "comeback code" threads over the years. People only remember the games the cpu comes from behind to beat them. They forget all the times they came from behind to beat the cpu. It's sort of like a closer in baseball. You never praise them for doing their job. You just bitch when they blow a game.

I should say I bought MLB 2K10 this year after four straight years of the Show and the controls are different but it didn't take me long to adjust. If you are used to a genre I don't think it's a big change. If you are a casual gamer it may be more difficult.

I do think changing controls on vets of a series leads to a lot of anger. I was pissed when they moved the sprint to R2 from X. I changed my controller mapping that first year to get around it. The next year EA froze some button maps so I had to learn to use turbo as R2. I fought that for over a year but I'm also stubborn.

skipwondah33
09-14-2010, 02:30 PM
We'll see if he's unstoppable this weekend. ;)

I know, can't wait to watch the game. No more nail bitters like last week though

Definitely agree with Rudy

That is why I think its actually harder for hardcore sports gamers. I was a little upset as well about the change of buttons, you get in a comfort level and don't want to get out of it. Then I realized its actually easier being R2. The person new to game didn't know it was X and won't need to adjust to it being R2, they simply learn the game as it is.

cdj
09-17-2010, 07:31 AM
I had the opportunity to play NCAA & Madden 11 against some non-sports gaming friends and you learn pretty quick how complex the games are and what they expect from sports games. They fall in the group that want to win more than they want an exact simulation representation of the sport.

Like others have mentioned, it's a tough line. How does a game developer make a game that is appealing to casual fans, but also "sim" enough for hardcore fans?

CLW
09-17-2010, 12:49 PM
Its an interesting article and I agree to some extent.

I have played Madden/NCAA since the begining. I have also played MLB The Show/baseball games and Live/2K/College Hoop games. I am pretty familiar with all of these titles so picking up the new year's "improvements"/changes isn't too difficult.

However, take FIFA/NHL for me. I gave up on both series a number of years ago (Sega Genisis days). The games were boring to me and I just didnt enjoy them. I rented FIFA last year and I was COMPLETELY lost with the controls and I ACTUALLY PLAYED soccer K-HS (had a few Div 2-3 schools that were interested in me walking on but I took the full ride on academics elsewhere). Obviously, I understand the game of soccer having played it and watched it my entire life but it took me forever to get used to the controls and I found it pretty complex to learn much less master.

I did the same thing with NHL. I only very casually follow the sport but am familiar with most of the rules. Again, I was completely lost with the controls and getting the timing down properly.

I agree they need to push more tutorials and not on youtube or just videos to watch but actual here press this button at this time to do this. (like 2K8 College Hoops has).

As far as how to go after both the hard core guys and the casual gamers, I think you almost have to make 2 completely different difficulty settings as well as how the game plays AI wise ("Arcade"/"Simulation"). Casual gamers are going to want to take a crappy team and destroy Alabama 100-0. Fine make a setting for that crowd that gives them a wide open arena ball like experience. IMO, this shouldn't be too hard as they have been selling that game on next-gen.

I think a genre that does this pretty well is the shooters. I'm nearly finished with Uncharted 2 on Normal difficulty and have had a blast. I suck at shooters so it has taken me quite a bit of time and deaths to get to the end of the game. I've enjoyed the game but would NEVER in a million years try the game on Crushing level which is probably were hard core shooters play the game at and just waltz right through it like its nothing.

JeffHCross
09-17-2010, 09:54 PM
CLW's latest post is pretty much spot on with what I've been thinking for the last few months (it may have been your thread that started me on this, steelerfan). It's great to see all the other thoughtful discussion that's been in this thread too. Pretty much exactly what I was hoping for in originally posting the article.

I agree, initially, with steeler and Rudy that you should get a hockey fan to review a hockey game. However[/b], for one ... true hockey fans are at somewhat of a premium now. And really, based on that article and my line of thinking ... what you really just need is someone experienced with video games. Personally, I don't care if IGN, Kotaku, or what-have-you understand the nuances of the sport they're reviewing. Their job is the mass market review ... sport specific reviews can be found elsewhere. Just my two cents.

I honestly don't think sports games are too hard for the Sports Fan. As a hardcore sports gamer predominantly my entire life since Tecmo Bowl, I tend to overcomplicate things in games because I've been playing a particular series for so long and think I know what to expect.That's kinda what I'm getting at though. As a "hardcore sports gamer", can we really judge this? I don't know if we can anymore.

Think back to Tecmo's control scheme and then imagine someone who hasn't played since then trying to pick up NCAA. My first thought would be "[i]good luck". I've played EA's Rugby titles a few times over the years, and while the nuances of rugby largely escape me, I treat the game like a massive option play and I do okay. But the actual control scheme for the entire game is over my head. The same with every basketball game since Coach K College Basketball, probably. I don't ever call set plays unless I find things that work regularly. I just let the CPU call a play and play street ball.

Hell, that's pretty much exactly what I do with NHL too, and I'm a pretty big hockey fan, so I actually know that game.

Like CLW, I suck at shooters, yet I'm actually able to ease my way into Resistance or War For Cybertron. And lemme tell you, it's a lot easier to pick up one of those games than it is for me to pick up another sports title.

Rudy
09-18-2010, 05:17 AM
The ESPN article on the history of Madden had older Madden producers complaining about how complex the controls were. I thought that was funny.

JeffHCross
09-18-2010, 01:15 PM
The ESPN article on the history of Madden had older Madden producers complaining about how complex the controls were. I thought that was funny.Good point, I'd forgotten about that.

I do get a little bit of a chuckle out of it too, but it's also true. I was thinking the other day of what the control scheme was for Sega's College Football's National Championship in the early days of the Genesis. Three buttons limits your control scheme by quite a bit.

I also remembered that I had a six-button joystick gamepad for playing Street Fighter on my Genesis. And it occurred to me that today's sports games are nearly as complex as fighting games ... at least as fighting games were in the day. Is there really that much difference between a Ryu fireball and the right-stick "shield from contact" control? Other than a button press (which, honestly, is the easiest part of Ryu's fireball), they're essentially the same, in terms of complexity.