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View Full Version : Old habits vs. new to the series. How much does it matter?



steelerfan
08-19-2010, 05:14 PM
The new Locomotion article got me thinking about how button changes affect sports gaming and how those effects carry over to gamers who play a particular series year in and year out.

I guess my question to you all is this....

Do you think it's more difficult to learn the button configuration of a game you've never played or to learn to actually use the subtle changes that each new title brings?

steelerfan
08-19-2010, 05:30 PM
I'll start with a few examples.

I look at the NHL series and think, "I'm glad I've played this every year" because the myriad of buttons may seem overwhelming if I was new to the series.

On the other hand, as I noted in the Locomotion thread, I still hold down Sprint in NCAA out of habit. If I had never played NCAA before 11, I wouldn't do that.

Then there's something like the Strategy Pad in Madden. Would you hate it if you never used the old system?

I know there are still buttons in each series that I virtually never use because I'm not "used to them" even though they've been there for a couple of iterations. Vision Control on NHL is a good example.

In the OS interview cdj posted, Ian said they wanted us to get "used to" the changes before they implemented more. Something like me still using Sprint says his logic is bad. Something like Strategy Pad says his logic is good. I wonder how much "resisting change" affects innovation in these areas?

I guess I can see the pluses and minuses to being new to an old series. The new guy has a steep learning curve but the veteran has to break old habits which can be even more difficult.

Rudy
08-19-2010, 06:57 PM
I think it might be tougher for veterans or more annoying to veterans of the series. Resisting change is prominent and I'm a part of that group. I also think that some of the new controls, particularly in football games, have gotten pretty complicated. It's hard for newbies to pick it up. Even the ESPN article showed how Madden designers from 5-10 years ago think the new game is too complicated. I remember seeing Jerome Bettis on TV complaining that Madden is too complicated for him to play anymore.

morsdraconis
08-19-2010, 08:10 PM
I'm not one to complain about controls. It takes me a bit to get used to them, but once I do, it's no different than if I had been playing the game for ages.

But with Madden and the strategy pad, it's just plain stupid. It's not innovative or easier to learn, it's just change for change's sake and it sucks.

skipwondah33
08-19-2010, 09:28 PM
But with Madden and the strategy pad, it's just plain stupid. It's not innovative or easier to learn, it's just change for change's sake and it sucks.

I may sound crazy but it is faster and easier to learn. I've been playing mostly nothing but Madden as I probably won't see much of NCAA anymore except for OD games 1-2 times a week. Mind you i've been using the method in NCAA for however many years its been in both Madden and NCAA. Well I played an OD game the other night and I was freaking lost as how to call hot routes, line shifts, LB shifts, etc, etc. It really is more complex than the strategy pad we just got use to it and programmed it into muscle memory when in reality its a more complicated process, ESPECIALLY if you just picked up the game for the first time. Now if I had some trouble with it then I know the casual player definitely did/will

I'm no overly estatic fan of the pad but for a person who memorized and tried to perfect the other method, it definitely is easier. If you get it down to a T you never have to lift your thumb off the D-pad.

morsdraconis
08-20-2010, 02:39 AM
I may sound crazy but it is faster and easier to learn. I've been playing mostly nothing but Madden as I probably won't see much of NCAA anymore except for OD games 1-2 times a week. Mind you i've been using the method in NCAA for however many years its been in both Madden and NCAA. Well I played an OD game the other night and I was freaking lost as how to call hot routes, line shifts, LB shifts, etc, etc. It really is more complex than the strategy pad we just got use to it and programmed it into muscle memory when in reality its a more complicated process, ESPECIALLY if you just picked up the game for the first time. Now if I had some trouble with it then I know the casual player definitely did/will

I'm no overly estatic fan of the pad but for a person who memorized and tried to perfect the other method, it definitely is easier. If you get it down to a T you never have to lift your thumb off the D-pad.

But it's an extra button for everything you do besides hot routes.

It's an extra button for audibling (only good thing from it is it actually tells you the name of the plays you have set for audibles though it doesn't tell you formations, which I think it should if they're going to go that far with it).

It's an extra button for any line or linebacker changes.

And god forbid you want to change an individual player, cause that's an extra button as well.

It's crazy how slow it is. Sure, it's all right there on the d-pad, but who cares? You still have to LEARN what all of the things are. How is it any different than learning what they were before? It's not, from my standpoint or the casual gamer standpoint. Someone that's never played the game before still has to learn what the audibles are. They still have to hit the button and read what everything does. By the time they get halfway through knowing what is available to them in the game, the CPU has already hiked the ball, thus, defeating the purpose.

Treating your players like complete fuckin' morons is not good business. New people to the game of Madden aren't even going to use the damn thing. Just like they wouldn't use the old way. It's a stupid way of forcing change and this whole thing of the old way being hard to learn for new people is just as bullshit. New people still have to learn the damn controls! Why change them so that everyone has to relearn the damn things?

steelerfan
08-20-2010, 02:26 PM
I agree that sometimes it seems there is change for the sake of change. I don't have much to offer yet on the Strategy Pad, I don't have Madden yet. I still wonder if the Strategy Pad would be so hated if we didn't know any different. If you took 100 people who wefe new to the series and had them play for a few days using both, how many would prefer which method? If more prefer the old way, then the new way is doubly ignorant. It would be interesting to see how it shook out.

jaymo76
08-21-2010, 01:29 AM
Well, look at Backbreaker as an example. Regardless of whether you like the game or not NONE of us had ever played it and when I played the demo... finally (thank you PS3 and your two months late demo...) I had no clue what was going on. The control scheme was/is incredibly complex. As I had no interest in buying the game I played a few demo games and then deleted it. My lack on interest combined with a new, complex control scheme made this game an automatic no buy. Now, if NCAA redid the enitre control scheme I would not be happy but I would learn. Finally now in the Madden demo I have learned to take my hand off the former sprint button... if we like/love the game/genre we will learn to adapt .02c

JeffHCross
08-22-2010, 12:11 AM
When I played NHL last year, it was the first time since either the late 90s or early 2000s (other than a demo here and there). For the large part, I had no idea what was going on at first, though I picked up most of the basic controls pretty quickly. Interestingly, I kept looking for a turbo button, and didn't find out about auto-sprint until it was added to NCAA.

The hardest thing for me with new games is when I play multiple similar games. Burnout Paradise and Mod Nation Racers, for example. In Mod Nation, :ps3x: is used for Drifting and R2 is the accelerator. Paradise also uses R2 for acceleration, but :ps3x: is Boost, and :ps3sq: is E-brake (which is used for drifting). Switching between the two games left me more than confused, and caused a few screwups.

The one central difference between sports games and other titles is that sport games seem to assume a level of knowledge. Sure, NCAA has "One-Button" gameplay now, but that doesn't actually teach you anything. FPS games actually suffer from this too, come to think of it.

Imagine Heavy Rain without the tutorial, Infamous without information about how to use your powers, etc, etc. Most games ease players into single-player mode with some level of instruction. Sports titles throw you onto the playing surface with no instruction at all.

morsdraconis
08-22-2010, 11:40 AM
Most games ease players into single-player mode with some level of instruction. Sports titles throw you onto the playing surface with no instruction at all.

That's not entirely true. Sports games explain new things with tutorial videos in game.

Plus, there's the manual to explain stuff to you as well; which I ALWAYS look at cause I'm so pre-programmed to do so from the NES days of there being no explanation of anything and you either having the manual to have an idea of what to even do in the game or figure it out yourself.

Jayrah
08-22-2010, 12:35 PM
Because of the changes made, I probably won't pick up Madden at all this year. The d-pad thing turns me off, and gameflow is a nice idea, but only with options to pick between plays, not as a 'coach mode' that gets called for you. I don't know, Ncaa just really hit the jackpot this year with creating an entirely new experience, while keeping it fun on the field, and fun on the sticks.

The buttons on ncaa haven't changed enough to warrant a complaint from me. Auto-sprint was added, but I don't use it due to a genius idea called an 'option' to use a sprint button. The throw away vs the pump fake (can't remember if changed last season or the year before from the Right stick click to the right bumper), was the toughest one for me to master, and I think that's different ncaa/madden too. I do however wish that some of the stupider after play stuff were simplified. You're sitting there pressing buttons all throughout the play, and then after a Touchdown you have to press 1 or 2 more to get a celebration.

Idk how much new vs veteran would be an issue now, but I know when I came over to the 360 it was a bit difficult to pick up, and now it must be like learning a new job. Really something like an autosprint is a tough habit to break, but to be honest it is tough also to learn how to use it correctly. I think somebody said it best when they said that it will take that button being something else for them to correct that habit. I'm the same way. If you change a button, and it's replaced with something else, I'll have to learn it. If not I won't. I also wish that the booklets they put in the box told you anything. I am more lost looking at the booklet than just adjusting to a new button or idea. I still don't know what commit button is, or if there is one. I assume so because occassionally I'll get the announcement from Herbie that my defense committed one way or the other, while I'm in base. That type of stuff would be nice to find in the booklet. But there is no mention. Also, off areas of the game such as recruiting would be a nice addition to that booklet for a newcomer. I mean I love tutorials, but at least give the basics to the new guy without him having to go online to find that stuff

morsdraconis
08-22-2010, 03:14 PM
I also just recently jumped from last gen to next (NCAA 09) and it actually wasn't much of an adjustment at that time. The last gen games had changed the sprint button for QBs to :ps3x: (:360a:) so that wasn't any different. Besides that, the buttons are exactly the same and the only difference now is all of the moves on the right stick instead of using L1 or R1 buttons for the juke moves and such (which I SIGNIFICANTLY like better).

I've never found the control schemes for NCAA or Madden difficult and definitely not something that a few games doesn't take to learn.

JeffHCross
08-22-2010, 06:36 PM
That's not entirely true. Sports games explain new things with tutorial videos in game.Now ... I haven't gone looking specifically for that by any means this year, but I don't recall seeing any tutorial videos for NCAA this year. And Madden last year threw you into the difficult level mini-game before any tutorial at all.

Either way, that's still a far cry from the way that other genres ease you into the game. I'm not saying I'd want to change, but the more I think about it, the more I think sport games have no hope of grabbing new players year in and year out.