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View Full Version : A potential solution to the man coverage issues



rhombic21
08-08-2010, 08:46 PM
Test this out. Try creating a receiver with perfect route running and repeatedly running digs and outs. I notice that a lot of the time, you don't get any "slowdown" animation for the WR as he makes his cut. So in other words, his SPD, AGI, and ACC ratings are what determines whether he gets open or not.

The problem seems to be that receivers get a "route penalty" too often. In other words, that the penalties on route running kick in at too high a level. Even elite players get these "loss of speed" animations way too often, and it seems like the game would play much better if it was such that these animations largely didn't come into play unless a player was below 80 or so in route running. That would make it so that you couldn't play track athletes who don't have good WR skills, but not such that legitimate WR's can't make speed cuts.

Also, in my tests, it doesn't look like removing the "slow down" animation really hurts the defense all that much. If the DB covering the play has good locomotion attributes (ACC, AGI, SPD), then he will often times either be there to make the tackle right after the catch, or to even break the pass up if it's further downfield.

So it seems to me that EA could fix this issue relatively easily by simply tuning the frequency that these "loss of speed" animations play (and the types that play) when receivers make cuts.

JeffHCross
08-08-2010, 08:55 PM
Hm. That makes sense. Should be a simple tune also.

I OU a Beatn
08-08-2010, 09:02 PM
Definitely sounds like an easy fix. Glad to hear it something so simple, now it's just a matter of waiting to see whether or not EA does something about it.

rhombic21
08-08-2010, 09:03 PM
Yes, it seems to me like they just have the thresholds set too high. So basically the "penalty" animations that are designed to punish receivers with bad route running attributes are kicking in at too high a level. Even with 99 RTE, you still get the "loss of speed" animation about 35-50% of the time. But if you go down to like 78 RTE then you get the animation everytime.

I also noticed that there are slight differences in the degree of slowdown that kick in based on which animation gets triggered, and it seems like the "worst" of these happens fairly often.

IMO they should simply tune it so that receivers with 90-95 RTE rarely get a slowdown animation, and that 95+ never get it. And then accordingly adjust lower ratings upwards also. Basically position the thresholds so that the really serious penalties (slow animations) only kick in for players who are below average route runners (or at least below 85).

That should make it so that man to man isn't just broken to the point of being useless (like it was on '09), and preventing people from picking any old fast player (like a corner or HB) and having them tear it up as a receiver, without making it such that it's impossible to have any kind of good timing oriented passing game against man coverage.

JeffHCross
08-08-2010, 09:19 PM
One thing that has also been noticed is that players are running into each other too often. Receivers on crossing routes, WR/DBs on streaks and in coverage ... eliminating that would go a long way too.

gschwendt
08-08-2010, 09:55 PM
Good info... I wondered if high RTE would help with the issue but never went to the practice field to test it thoroughly. I wonder if they should also increase the penalty for DBs in terms of agility and making cuts to jump the route.

rhombic21
08-08-2010, 09:59 PM
In my practice time, it actually seemed to work pretty well as-is, when the WR didn't get that slowdown animation.

rhombic21
08-08-2010, 10:17 PM
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. Ryan Broyles (#85) has a route running rating of 92. I had to run the play about 5 times before I got it to play out this way, but if they could essentially tweak it so that players with high route running ratings always cut like this, you can get a sense for what the passing game could be like. You'll notice that even though it "worked", it wasn't a massive gain, and the defensive back was still in pretty good position to hold it to a minimal gain or, if it was a lockdown corner, possibly even break up the pass.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ib5pOGFxBk

gschwendt
08-08-2010, 10:18 PM
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. Ryan Broyles (#85) has a route running rating of 92. I had to run the play about 5 times before I got it to play out this way, but if they could essentially tweak it so that players with high route running ratings always cut like this, you can get a sense for what the passing game could be like. You'll notice that even though it "worked", it wasn't a massive gain, and the defensive back was still in pretty good position to hold it to a minimal gain or, if it was a lockdown corner, possibly even break up the pass.What time marker are you referring to?

JeffHCross
08-08-2010, 10:18 PM
Rhombic, I'm 99.9% sure that's not the video you intended to link to.

EDIT: And now it's been replaced.

rhombic21
08-08-2010, 10:19 PM
What time marker are you referring to?

Sorry, I had the wrong video link saved to my clipboard. The right link should be there now.

JeffHCross
08-08-2010, 10:20 PM
the defensive back was still in pretty good position to hold it to a minimal gainSeems to me that it would have been even less of a gain if the WR and DB hadn't gotten chipped by the crossing route. Both players started from a dead stop after that chip, and Broyles must have the faster ACC of the two.

rhombic21
08-08-2010, 10:23 PM
Yeah. My point is that I think they could almost remove the animation that normally plays (or make it so that it only came into play as a "penalty" for low RTE players prevent people from using non-WR players as WRs simply because they are fast), and the passing game would be much better.

rhombic21
08-08-2010, 10:57 PM
Also, for the record, that CB actually has 97 ACC and 88 SPD, so that explains why he was able to cover the route so well until he got picked.

To me, I really think that the answer here is simply removing the "slow down" animations unless the WR has a low RTE rating. Lockdown corners would still be able to stay with and defend receivers in man to man coverage, but shifty/quick guys would be more effective at working the underneath routes.

rhombic21
08-08-2010, 11:44 PM
A little bit longer in practice time and it looks like the "non-animation" is actually just a regular animation sped up super fast. If you watch, the receiver doesn't even plant properly when making the cut, and it basically "skips" a step and he kind of morphs into the second part of the route. So maybe it's not a clear-cut solution.

Anyways, the nexus of the problem here is that receivers get a much bigger penalty on cuts than do defensive players, such that even for the most elite offensive players, an "even" animation only plays out about one time in 5 or 6.

For defensive players you basically see the reverse of what you see for offensive players. Only players with relatively low man coverage ratings (which I'm assuming is designed to be the defensive counterpart to the route running rating) ever slow down at all when making a cut.

So what probably needs to happen, rather than giving all receivers the super sped up cut animation, is to alter the thresholds at which the various cut animations play (I saw about 3 different variations, which ranged from massive slow downs to virtually no slow down), for both offense and defense. Either way, it seems like the kind of data driven thing that I would think ought to be tunable, assuming they built these tuners with any kind of foresight at all (and given the amount of changes in man coverage between demo and retail, I would think that this would be the kind of thing they'd have seen coming as a potential issue).

The game contains the right animations, the problem is that they don't play out with the correct frequency.

Cipher 8
08-09-2010, 06:14 AM
The one thing I've grown to hate about the canned animation gameplay, well who am I kidding it's more then one thing but, I really hate how they'll have you catch the ball but then drop it when hit or have it knocked out your hands. This is a nice animation and sure it happens in real life often in games but it happens way to often IMO in NCAA. Either have the receiver drop the catch when he attempts to make if they are going to drop that one anyways or occasionally have the defender swat it out...but it just looks stupid when you make a catch and boom your hit and the ball tumbles out. I'de say about 80% of my passes in traffic end like this. I even have catching set to conservative. It happens too often and it just frustrates the hell out of me.

Also I really hate how once two players get sucked into an animation a third cannot alter or affect the play in any way. For example. TE catches the ball... Safety attempts a tackle and the two player get sucked into a animation together. I the cornerback come running to lay a hit on the TE and knock him down but just bounce off because I cannot affect the play because one one animation fits and he was there first. It really sucks when you bounce off and fall flat and that animation has the TE breaking the tackle cuz then had the game allowed you to do what it should the TE would've been on the ground but instead he's running untouched...

I hope if they stick with the animation gameplay that they can develop something to make other players affect the play, I know they have gang tackle but it doesn't work all the time at all, mostly one on one tackling and when you hit someone they don't go back, sideways, etc because it has to fit what the animation is doing. That is lame.

That is all.

Cipher 8
08-09-2010, 06:18 AM
BTW rhombic21 sounds like an easier fix and something they could potentially patch instead of making us wait til 2012's edition. Nice thread.

AustinWolv
08-09-2010, 12:02 PM
Yeah, the video cut is a lot quicker than I see, so it makes sense. Instead of tuning the offense too much, maybe it would make more sense to go after the DBs as you noted since they aren't differentiating much......thus, tune their them so that lockdown 90+ CBs can reasonably stay with routes, but lower-rated guys are getting left on cuts by good WRs.

I mean, watching NFL receivers last night......they don't even cut on a 90 like that.....

jaymo76
08-09-2010, 01:24 PM
The one thing I've grown to hate about the canned animation gameplay, well who am I kidding it's more then one thing but, I really hate how they'll have you catch the ball but then drop it when hit or have it knocked out your hands. This is a nice animation and sure it happens in real life often in games but it happens way to often IMO in NCAA. Either have the receiver drop the catch when he attempts to make if they are going to drop that one anyways or occasionally have the defender swat it out...but it just looks stupid when you make a catch and boom your hit and the ball tumbles out. I'de say about 80% of my passes in traffic end like this. I even have catching set to conservative. It happens too often and it just frustrates the hell out of me.

Also I really hate how once two players get sucked into an animation a third cannot alter or affect the play in any way. For example. TE catches the ball... Safety attempts a tackle and the two player get sucked into a animation together. I the cornerback come running to lay a hit on the TE and knock him down but just bounce off because I cannot affect the play because one one animation fits and he was there first. It really sucks when you bounce off and fall flat and that animation has the TE breaking the tackle cuz then had the game allowed you to do what it should the TE would've been on the ground but instead he's running untouched...

I hope if they stick with the animation gameplay that they can develop something to make other players affect the play, I know they have gang tackle but it doesn't work all the time at all, mostly one on one tackling and when you hit someone they don't go back, sideways, etc because it has to fit what the animation is doing. That is lame.

That is all.

Good observations Cipher! The catch and drop thing drives me up the wall and down the other side. Add in the incorrect commentary that usually plays at that moment and you are left just shaking your head. Another thing that really bothers me is when the cpu RB gets group tackled yet throws off four defenders and then rumbles 50 yards for six.

fsuprime
08-09-2010, 11:31 PM
has g or cdj or someone emailed this to Tiburon? nice work rhombic, hopefully if they havent found this themselves they get to work asap.

steelerfan
08-09-2010, 11:37 PM
Yes, good work rhombic. I'm having trouble processing exactly how/how much this should be tweaked though. I'd like to see zone tightened a bit along with this for balance purposes.