PDA

View Full Version : Potential problem with recruiting: Kickers and punters



trioptionGator
07-18-2010, 11:48 AM
I really like this game and the recruiting, but I've noticed a potential major problem with recruiting: Kickers and punters are basically awful. I'm sorry if this has been posted elsewhere, but I looked on a bunch of sites and didn't see it.

Basically, if you look at a recruiting class, most of the specialists have C- or lower in KPW and KAC. I simmed through a season quickly and, sure enough, most punters and kickers from the first recruiting class came in with KPW and KAC in the 60s. Or worse. Colorado signed a kicker prospect with 40 KPW and 41 KAC. Why not just put in any random player at kicker at that point?

The problem is that these ratings are way, way out of whack with the default rosters. Only 6 kickers and 1 punter had KPW less than 70 on the default rosters. But in dynasty, nearly every recruit is coming in at under 70.

Has anyone else noticed this? There is a solution which is just to create a bunch of special teams prospects, but that's a lot of effort. If I'm not imagining this, I hope that EA is aware.

JBHuskers
07-18-2010, 01:22 PM
I think that they'll progress throughout their career. I haven't played the dynasty long enough to see yet, but they could just generally start off low as a freshman and be better built up by the time they're a junior or senior (at least for the 3 and 4 star kickers).

Iron Dragon
07-18-2010, 01:27 PM
The ones with under 50 KPW/KAC are typically walk-ons.

Cipher 8
07-18-2010, 01:38 PM
I have seen this too and it sorta sucks because the ones with good Kick PWR (All that matters to me) always go to the top schools.

trioptionGator
07-18-2010, 01:49 PM
Yeah, JB, I imagine that guys will progress. I'll try to do some simming to see if that happens. Interesting thought about the really low-rated players being walk-ons. I think you both are probably right. That still leaves me with two issues, though:

1) There aren't quite enough "mediocre" kicking prospects. I don't want a game full of Janikowskis and Meskos, but it doesn't seem like the stock recruiting classes have enough competent guys to replenish special teams, even if we're just talking about elite schools. (I saw USC with a kicker rated below 50.)
2) Kickers and punters are going to have strong legs right out of high school. When guys go to college and receive better and more specialized coaching, they may get better with accuracy and even add some extra distance, not to mention all the mental elements that go into kicking. But they're always going to have that strong leg.

The good news is that this isn't an unfixable problem - I can always create extra recruits to my liking. But whereas I love most of the new recruiting/progression model, I feel like this phase of the game needs a tweak.

ram29jackson
07-18-2010, 02:01 PM
the fact is, most NCAA kickers suck. and most teams dont pay/hire specialized coaches for them. So I think the game simulates it well haha

steelerfan
07-18-2010, 02:58 PM
I'm in year 4 of a PSU Dynasty I'm simming. I have a 3* kicker who I recruited out of high school. He is a Junior now and has 71 KPW and 73 KAC. I also have a Junior punter who I recruited out of high school. He has 77 both. It may be a good idea to recruit these positions before you need them and try to keep 2 on your roster at all times to let the younger one develop a little before using him.

jaymo76
07-18-2010, 08:26 PM
I drafted a 3 star punter and a one star kicker (not by choice BUT there were only FIVE kickers in the entire recruiting pool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!). I have placed my new punter as the place kicker as well because the one star is absolutely brutal. I guess I will give him time to develop and just run with the one kicker. I am getting around his playing time promise by having him kick extra point conversions.

SirHellraiser
07-19-2010, 09:44 AM
I was able to recruit a 3 star punter before even played a game in my online dynasty i offered a scholarship and he took it

voltool16
07-19-2010, 09:48 AM
i am in year 5 of my dynasty. i have a senior punter who i recruited the first year.

there were no kickers interested in me and i needed both. i only recruited the punter because he was a 3 star and the number one punter in the class.

he came in with 64 kpw and 63 acc. now, in his senior year....its 72 power and 73 acc. the walkon kicker they gave me had 50 in each and now hes a 65 and 65. so the number one punter is only 7 points higher in each category than a walkon who was rated 45 overall.

this sucks for exporting to madden....youll run out of kickers ten years into a franchise.

this also sucks because i cant even kick a 45 yard field goal with my punter or punt the ball 45 yards, or kick the ball deeper than the 8 on kickoffs. and yes thats with full power kicks. he was the number one player and has better ratings than any other senior special teams player that is part of the first recruiting class.

the only solution is to crank the sliders up. punt and kick power and accuracy for user and cpu up to at least 75.

JBHuskers
07-19-2010, 09:54 AM
I'll forward the issue on. Thanks for the #'s voltool16

steelerfan
07-19-2010, 10:16 AM
I just hope it doesn't get "overfixed". I like the idea of most kickers being garbage in this game and needing to keep 2 on my roster. There should be some good ones though.

iBrandon
07-19-2010, 01:11 PM
I guess creating kicker and punter prospects wouldn’t help the issue because they might not be interested in your school.

JBHuskers
07-19-2010, 03:04 PM
Russ just got back to me and said:


All Kickers and Punters have a minimum kick distance no matter what they are rated.

Basically, give them a try and see what you are witnessing.

But it is also a good idea to not wait til your kicker is a senior to start recruiting (with the exception of the first year of the dynasty).

bigmike20000
07-19-2010, 04:53 PM
anyone noticed that you can also find kickers with 4.38 SPD, maybe thats your solution just find one of the kickers with 4.3 SPD and run fakes

trioptionGator
07-19-2010, 05:58 PM
Russ just got back to me and said:



Basically, give them a try and see what you are witnessing.

But it is also a good idea to not wait til your kicker is a senior to start recruiting (with the exception of the first year of the dynasty).

JB, I'm a bit confused by Russ' response. I informally simmed through some of a dynasty and kickers and punters seemed to progress no differently than other players - 1 to 5 points per year or so in KPW, KAC and OVR. Would it be helpful to experiment kicking with some of these recruits four years into a dynasty and report some numbers and experiences?

jaymo76
07-19-2010, 06:10 PM
I guess creating kicker and punter prospects wouldn’t help the issue because they might not be interested in your school.

No BUT if you create kicker recruits it will give more options for the teams going after kickers. In the off season I am going to make 3-5 kickers/punters just to get more in the pool.

trioptionGator
07-19-2010, 06:26 PM
No BUT if you create kicker recruits it will give more options for the teams going after kickers. In the off season I am going to make 3-5 kickers/punters just to get more in the pool.

I created 5 kickers and 5 punters in my Florida dynasty and they all came in at 3* except for one 2*. I'm playing every game so I won't have any news on their progression for a long, long while. But if you're willing to create a bunch of kicking prospects each offseason, I'm guessing that you can get some decent special teams results long into the future. The good news is that it does not take a long time to create a kicker. I use a free online random name generator and I use a random number generator to pick a state (I feel like I'm cheating if my create-a-prospect is from my pipeline states.) Then I edit:

SPD, AGI, ACC, AWR, KPW, KAC, STA, INJ

You can go through and lower all the other ratings like the game-created prospects, add in throwing ability, whatever floats your boat. Overall though it only takes 3-5 minutes per prospect.

I am generally thrilled with this game and this is literally one of only 2 or 3 things that is bugging me. (The other main one is the ratings discrepancies from default to progression player ratings.) These are ultimately not game-killers though because we have the power to create prospects and edit rosters! Other than that, big-time congrats to EA for a great game.

Aglemar
07-19-2010, 06:49 PM
Has anyone seen the stats on walk-on kickers? I only ask because I thought walk-on kickers were better from beginning to end in NCAA 10. I really hope that this is not the case again. I am currently progressing through my first season, and once again I have noticed that K/P stats absolutely stink, and I am concerned that they will not progress enough to bother with - like last year.

trioptionGator
07-19-2010, 07:30 PM
"All Kickers and Punters have a minimum kick distance no matter what they are rated."

OK, I think I understand that element of it. I just created three kickers and three punters in practice mode with the following ratings:

K1, P1: 65 KPW, 62 KAC
K2, P2: 50 KPW, 50 KAC
K3, P3: 40 KPW, 40 KAC

I started using K1 and P1 on All-American practice mode and hilarity ensued. It took me a long time to get used to the reduced accuracy (you have to get a perfectly straight kick) and I lowered the kick trajectory down as far as possible and still couldn't squeak in a 47-yard field goal. The max range seemed to be about 45 with an absolutely perfect kick, with a realistic range inside 42. Punters could punt the ball between 40 and 45 yards in the air with a perfect kick. But as I started to drop down to K2/P2 and K3/P3, I didn't notice much of a dropoff. The punter with 40 KPW/KAC was still punting the ball about 38-42 yards in the air, and the kickers seemed to barely drop off at all. I actually was banging in 40-yard field goals with the 40 KPW/KAC kicker on a pretty regular basis.

So I guess this means that if you get one of those awful kickers in your dynasty you can still kick field goals if you have the ball inside your own 25. And your 40 OVR punter will still average a respectable 42 yards per attempt, though I hate to think what that would do to net averages.

So my question to the community here would be this: Is this how we want kicking to be? Or should there be more highly rated specialists in default recruiting classes?

JeffHCross
07-19-2010, 11:04 PM
So my question to the community here would be this: Is this how we want kicking to be? Or should there be more highly rated specialists in default recruiting classes?Absolutely, there should be higher rated specialists. There aren't many of them, no, but there are plenty of examples of Freshman kickers that come in and have an impact. They're not stars, in most situations ... but they're at least serviceable. Based on the recruiting kickers we've had the last two years (NCAA 10 and NCAA 11), I wouldn't start a single Freshman kicker no matter what. That's not realistic at all.

I would bet that if you compared ESPN Recruiting grades for Kickers (i.e. how many kicking recruits of certain quality levels there are in this year's class) to what the recruiting classes in NCAA contain, NCAA would not look even close to real life.

The only saving grace of this is that there's a "minimum" distance ... though even that is laughable. That means that there's fundamentally no difference between KPW 60 and KPW 40. Which means that if you get a low rated kicker, he's not going to improve.

morsdraconis
07-20-2010, 12:42 AM
Yeah, but there's no way a 65 or even 70 power kicker should be banging in 45 yarders like it's nothing. That's 85+ territory there. I'm GLAD that they did this. It makes special teams actually MEAN something now.

JeffHCross
07-20-2010, 12:47 AM
It makes special teams actually MEAN something now.Except if they suck across the board, what difference does it make? I agree that a 65/70 KPW shouldn't be making 45 (I've found guys that weren't able to make 40+ yard kicks that were given 80 KPW in the default rosters). But if 65/70 is all you have, then damned if you do and damned if you don't. I'm glad, on the one hand, that 65/70 are able to make ~40 yard kicks, simply because I want to be able to make 40+ yard kicks after Year 1. But geez.

JBHuskers
07-20-2010, 12:54 AM
Compare and contrast with this:

http://espn.go.com/college-football/statistics/player/_/stat/kicking/sort/fieldGoalsMade

morsdraconis
07-20-2010, 01:07 AM
Compare and contrast with this:

http://espn.go.com/college-football/statistics/player/_/stat/kicking/sort/fieldGoalsMade

Exactly!

No many 50+ yarders even tried, much less made. 45-48 is USUALLY the max for most kickers in college. I think I can live with kickers being that terrible.

JBHuskers
07-20-2010, 01:10 AM
I think in terms of football now, especially with NCAA the video game 35 is the new 40, for terms of where you're at on the field and going for it.

iBrandon
07-20-2010, 09:26 AM
So I guess an upside is we don’t have to worry about field goals being automatic anymore because all of the kickers are horrible?

voltool16
07-20-2010, 09:37 AM
are yall serious?

you really want to play a game that is this far from reality and argue to try and justify this?

tell us all how you feel when youre in an improtant game and at the 30 yard line with a bcs powerhouse school and you need 3 points to win and you know you cant even attempt a field goal because ea put a cap on this. this is absolutely terrible. over half of the kicker sin the ncaa would at least have the leg power to attempt a 47 to 50 yard field goal for the win. 4 years into a dynasty this will never happen. you wil lhave to throw a 30 yard hail mary that doenst even have time to let routes develop.

show me one bcs school that wouldnt let a kicker attempt a 50 yard field goal for the win. in ncaa 11 there is actual proof that this isnt even an option.

show me one bcs power school that doesnt have a specialist that can kick a kickoff deeper than the 8....EVER. NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO GAME WINNING FIELD GOALS of 47+ ARE TRASHED AND SO ARE KICKOFFS.

JBHuskers
07-20-2010, 09:59 AM
Someone with access to the game today, take a look at the roster and look at KPW and KAC for these guys:

Grant Ressel, K MIZZ (7 of 8 from 40-49)
Alex Henery, K NEB (7 for 8)
Erik Soderberg, K AFA (3 for 6)
Dan Hutchins, K PITT (4 for 8)

These four kickers were in the top 10 for FG's made this year. A couple on the high end and a couple on the low end of 40-49 yards. All of these guys should be in the game as they are juniors or sophomores.

iBrandon
07-20-2010, 10:17 AM
I thought this issue was guys not having the power to kick the automatic 52 yarders right down the middle like in years past. You’re saying with the way kickers are developing and coming out, it’s going to be tough to nail anything beyond 35 yards?

JBHuskers
07-20-2010, 10:25 AM
I thought this issue was guys not having the power to kick the automatic 52 yarders right down the middle like in years past. You’re saying with the way kickers are developing and coming out, it’s going to be tough to nail anything beyond 35 yards?

No I think we're talking about kicking a FG from the 30 or 35. Not a 35 yard FG.

I'm curious to see what the ratings of the four kickers I listed are.

iBrandon
07-20-2010, 10:26 AM
Someone with access to the game today, take a look at the roster and look at KPW and KAC for these guys:

Grant Ressel, K MIZZ (7 of 8 from 40-49)
Alex Henery, K NEB (7 for 8)
Erik Soderberg, K AFA (3 for 6)
Dan Hutchins, K PITT (4 for 8)

These four kickers were in the top 10 for FG's made this year. A couple on the high end and a couple on the low end of 40-49 yards. All of these guys should be in the game as they are juniors or sophomores.

I just looked at the Teambuilder website and here are the ratings –

Grant Ressel – Missouri
80 OVR
90 KPW
76 KAC

Alex Henery – Nebraska
88 OVR
94 KPW
89 KAC

Erik Soderberg – Air Force
80 OVR
85 KPW
84 KAC

Dan Hutchins – Pitt
81 OVR
85 KPW
85 KAC

steelerfan
07-20-2010, 10:26 AM
Someone with access to the game today, take a look at the roster and look at KPW and KAC for these guys:

Grant Ressel, K MIZZ (7 of 8 from 40-49)
Alex Henery, K NEB (7 for 8)
Erik Soderberg, K AFA (3 for 6)
Dan Hutchins, K PITT (4 for 8)

These four kickers were in the top 10 for FG's made this year. A couple on the high end and a couple on the low end of 40-49 yards. All of these guys should be in the game as they are juniors or sophomores.


Ressel 95/92 KP/KAC
Henerey 94/89
Soderberg 82/82
Hutchins N/A Pittsburgh Kicker is Harper 94/83

JBHuskers
07-20-2010, 11:12 AM
So they kinda make sense.

Okay how about Matt Weller from Ohio? He was 7 for 10 as a freshman last year from 40-49.

morsdraconis
07-20-2010, 11:22 AM
So they kinda make sense.

Okay how about Matt Weller from Ohio? He was 7 for 10 as a freshman last year from 40-49.

86/84

With the normal slider settings you can DESTROY a 40-49 yarder with 91 kpw so I would assume 40-49 is very achievable with 86 kpw.

JBHuskers
07-20-2010, 11:30 AM
Thanks for the numbers guys....

morsdraconis
07-20-2010, 11:36 AM
And just for comparison, some guys that nailed 50% or more of their 50+ yarders and the two longest FGs in the league last year:

Blair Walsh - Georgia - 4/5 from 50+ - long of 53 yards - 95/90
Kai Forbath - UCLA - 3/6 from 50+ - long of 53 yards - 96/96
Grant Mahoney - Iowa State - 3/5 from 50+ - long of 52 yards - 88/82
Josh Jasper - LSU - 2/3 from 50+ - long of 52 yards - 95/88
Philip Welch - Wisconsin - 2/4 from 50+ - long of 57 yards - 88/80
Carson Wiggs - Purdue - 2/5 from 50+ - long of 59 yards - 90/82

Obviously the Wisconsin and Purdue longs have to do with the insane wind conditions that they can get in the midwest more than their actually ability to kick them that far.

fsuprime
07-20-2010, 11:37 AM
dustin hopkins was a top rated kicker before last season (out of h.s.) and did great for fsu, and put balls deep into the endzone a few times.

JBHuskers
07-20-2010, 11:39 AM
I guess the next step is to follow the 3* and 4* kickers to see where they end up as a junior and senior. Their progressions may be a hair low. I haven't played through enough dynasty this year to see for myself yet.