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View Full Version : Fundamental Question: What's really the difference b/w play styles?



gigemaggs99
08-01-2012, 01:05 AM
I'm not trying to stir up a big discussion on which is better, but I'm wondering. What are the differences? Maybe in real life they have different concepts, routes, etc...but I find when trying the different styles out, I don't really find that much difference atleast in terms of the video game.

What is the difference between Air Raid, Spread, RnS. They all have short, quick, medium, and long passes. A lot of them are the same with different names, i.e. Shallow Cross (Air Raid) vs Drag Under (Spread). Corner Strike (RnS) vs Shakes (Air Raid). Inside Cross (RnS) vs Mesh (Air Raid and Spread). It seems like a lot of the same plays have multiple names.

Then most play styles have the read option, Draws, counters....so I'm just not really seeing what is the huge difference?

In real life, does the Spread run the ball more than they throw? Air Raid passes more than they run? RnS well takes whatever the D gives them...then again don't they all? Air Raid will audible to a run if the defense gives it to them....

I'm just wanting to know what the major differences are.

I can see a difference between the Air Raid style and the Nebraska option run game from the 90s. Or the Flexbone triple option attack vs the pro style Bama attack.

I just have a harder time seeing the difference between Air Raid, Spread, and RnS.

Thanks for any input, suggestions, tips, etc....

My buddy and I tried to iron it out tonight and we seemed to talk in circles and couldn't in the end really see a huge difference.

Oneback
08-01-2012, 01:59 AM
Honestly the different systems aren't fundamentally different, in football you take what works and meld it into your overall philosophy if it fits with everything else you do. Where things are different is the way its packaged and individual techniques. Everyone runs shallow cross, however at USC the X receiver may have a choice route, at Texas it may be a 9-route, some teams use concepts and tag routes to receivers (Gun Rip 74 Y Square X Pop), some use routes and tag receivers (Quads Rt Quick 212 H Flat).

In the end most teams run a lot of the same stuff, they just call it something different, align differently and potentially use slightly different techniques - this isn't something that is represented well in NCAA however.

Dr Death
08-01-2012, 02:53 AM
This is one of the things EA has done that pisses me off no end; they have blurred the line between the Run & Shoot and the Air Raid and the simple reason is either - A: They're too lazy to get both offenses correctly in the game or B: They just don't know enough about either offense.

Case in point, when NCAA came out w/ these offenses and "bragged" about them being in the game, they said this about the R&S: 'If you want an offense that throws the ball 50-60 times a game, this offense is for you!' Whilst it's true most R&S teams will throw a lot, the offense cannot be so easily explained away. It involves 3-4 receivers running an "option route" on every single play. There are some plays where the X or Z will run a Go or 9 route, but the other three will read the defense and adjust their route accordingly.

The first thing the offense in the R&S must figure out is what is the D in? Man? Or Zone? Then, is the Man a blitz or if Zone, what kind of Zone? Cover 2? Cover 3? Cover 4? Zone Blitz? The QB, SB {Super Back - RB is called the SB in this offense} and all 4 WR's must read the defense exactly the same and be on the same page for the offense to work. When it doesn't work, ie; your guys make wrong reads, decisions or are too slow in their reads, the offense can resemble a bad 8th grade team.

However, when it's clicking and all your guys are on the same page, it is virtually impossible to stop.

As it stands right now, in the NCAA game the :SMU: offense has like 4 true R&S plays in it and even those have wrong option routes. The rest of the offense? They're plays that have been in EA games for years. I find it terribly insulting when EA makes the claim about how they want to "teach" people certain things - like the 1, 3, 5 and 7-step drop backs for QB's this year, but at the same time they totally lie/mislead people about certain offenses. To me, it's grossly false advertising and to us coaches or former coaches, it is a huge slap in the face.

As for the Air Raid, this offense is mixture of several offenses, namely the :BYU: offense from the 1980's when :BYU: was turning out monster QB numbers every year, from Marc Wilson to Jim McMahon to Steve Young to Robbie Bosco and several others I know I am forgetting. But the Air Raid also borrows some from the West Coast as well as the R&S.

The Air Raid has fewer plays, but they will run the same play from various formations. Mike Leach once quipped: 'It's easier to tell someone where to stand than it is to teach them a new play.' And Graham Harrell said, while at :Texas_Tech: that he was shocked by the small number of plays and that all they do is go over these plays w/ so much repetition that guys have them down cold. They'll have one play and run it out of 4-Wide, 3-Wide w/ a TE, 2-Wide, 2 TE's and a RB, 3-Wide w/ 2 RB's and so on. Another major part of the Air Raid that EA somehow left out of the game is this; in the Air Raid, the O-line is spread out further than any line in football history.

You might think this would lead to major gaps between the G-C-G and thus allow for more easy sacks, but nothing could be further from the truth. The wide line splits also force the DE's out further from the QB and make their job more difficult and also helps to wear them down easier because they are constantly rushing the QB and doing so from a greater distance.

Both offenses have very short terminology, so unlike the West Coast offense, with its long play calls, these take just a couple seconds to say. Case in point:

Run & Shoot - Play Calls:

Rip 60 Z Go {Start out in 2 X 2, Rip means inside WR on left side goes in motion right}
Early Rip 60 X Choice Drag {Early Rip means line up in Trips Right}
90 Switch {Base 2 X 2 formation}
Load 60 Z Choice Special {Inside WR on right side motions left}

Air Raid - Play Calls:

700 X Under
700 X Under Y Corner
509 Z In
509 X Curl
700 Y Mesh

Those are just a few examples and hopefully everything proves to you that "In the game" the offenses are disastrously wrong. In real life there are a lot of differences, though both the R&S and Air Raid do share some similarities. Any further questions, please ask.

gigemaggs99
08-01-2012, 10:27 AM
Oneback and Dr. Death, TOTALLY AWESOME. See this is the type of football discussion I enjoy. I have a lot to learn and I and enjoy sitting here reading this kind of stuff. Thanks for sharing the knowledge.

As far as real life goes I'm sure the differences are greater, as far as the game goes, this basic ? came up b/c I have the hardest time finding a playbook. Actually each year I go through this. I've played countless hours on the practice field since the game came out. I try an Air Raid offense, then another, then another, then stumble into some Spread offenses and keep trying different ones. SMU is the only RnS besides the default to so I'm not left with some many options and choices.

I read a few years back that it's best to pick an offense then stick with it and learn it inside and out. MY PROBLEM is I can't pick one. :bang:

I like the idea of the Air Raid how simple it's "supposed" to be with the small amount of plays (like you said above a few plays just in multiple formations). However I also like to run the ball so I enjoy the WV style of Air Raid and find myself running more of spread run attack when I run the WV playbook. It seems like for some reason when I run the WV PB I'm not this pass happy person, it seems to be more run sided.

The RnS seems really cool in principle and I enjoy reading about it, MY PROBLEM is I like taking over the D ranked teams. The WRs just don't seem to have the awareness needed to run these option routes so I end up throwing a lot of INTS or in-completions. Maybe it works better on the game for SMU who has the personnel but it's very hard to use it with a D team. When you don't get the wins it's hard to recruit the better players to run this system, so I'm stuck recruiting 1 star WRs that don't have the awareness to run the system so it's a downward spiral of a cycle.

The Spread (i.e. Oregon) is fun too. MY PROBLEM I like to use the D teams. Oregon is fun to play with but the majority of their backs are all 90+ if not 95+ on the speed. It's much easier to run this Spread offense rushing attack when you have the fastest guys on the game. Again, D teams don't have guys that come close to 90 speed, it's usually more like high 70s to low 80s. I can run the Oregon attack with Oregon and rush for well over 150-200 yards per game vs the CPU but using this same attack with a D team I'm lucky to get 80 yards per game. There are just too many tackles in the backfield and not enough speed to out run a lot of those tackles.

I enjoy the Army attack too, I miss the pass game there. I do alright with the Army attack until my buddy controls the DE and messes up the reads. It seems like when the CPU controls the DE, if the DE stays I hand the ball off, but the rest of the D-line is working in your favor, if the DE goes I keep the ball and again the rest of the D-line is attacking so keeping the ball is advantageous. When my buddy controls the DE it throws a wrench in the reads. The Army attack does work well with D level teams.

Pro style or Multiple WCO also works well with D level teams. MY PROBLEM I can't stick with a PB and when I create one I don't keep it simple. I see 378 open slots for plays and my brain works like, "Well I should keep it in there just in case I want to throw in a new wrinkle" then I get in game and don't have the simplicity that the AIR RAID "forces" b/c I have so many plays to pick from I don't really have an organized plan of attack.

So maybe for "today alteast LOL" I'm leaning more towards the Air Raid, maybe a compromise with the WV PB. I really enjoy all of the read option, and triple option plays it has, even from 5 wide sets. I started trying to learn a better way to call plays. I figure since you have the 4 quick stick plays I should NEVER call those in the play-call menu, same with the 4 audibles. So I started going into the book, formation by formation and trying to learn (for example) if there are 15 plays in the formation, 4 are already taken and maybe more if they are used as an audible. So I'm trying to learn the remaining plays to call, then which are best against man vs zone, short yardage vs long yardage. Then hopefully when I'm in game I will know out of the 15 plays, these 1-3 are the best options for this situation.

As it is now, it's pretty sad. I run the same stick, mesh and shallow cross plays over and over. I can't really tell you if he's (my buddy) is in man or zone. I can see if he's in cover 2 or 3 and I can see if he's blitzing. Other than that if I really need a 1st, say 3rd and 8 I call some sort of a Hitch play and see which WR isn't being bumped. When the DB lays off I just fire the ball to the WR prior to his cut, the WR turns back and catches the ball for the first darn near 100% of the time. Then I go back to the stick, mesh, shallow cross dance mixing in some read options. Maybe that's how you're supposed to run the Air Raid, heck if I know LOL.

volstopfan14
08-01-2012, 12:34 PM
Those are just a few examples and hopefully everything proves to you that "In the game" the offenses are disastrously wrong. In real life there are a lot of differences, though both the R&S and Air Raid do share some similarities. Any further questions, please ask.

I know the R&S is incorrect in the game, but what about the Air Raid? It seems to me that most of the key plays are included in the game. Stick, Corner, Shallow Cross, Mesh, Y Cross, All Curls, Shakes, Smash, Sail/Flood, and Verticals (though it doesn't work the way it should) are all included in the game (I'm sure I'm forgetting something as well).

Oneback
08-01-2012, 01:35 PM
I know the R&S is incorrect in the game, but what about the Air Raid? It seems to me that most of the key plays are included in the game. Stick, Corner, Shallow Cross, Mesh, Y Cross, All Curls, Shakes, Smash, Sail/Flood, and Verticals (though it doesn't work the way it should) are all included in the game (I'm sure I'm forgetting something as well).

As far as the Air Raid goes your right most of the core concepts are in the game, that's just a function of the number of teams that run the Air Raid however and the fact that there is a lot more information out there on the Air Raid right now, what they don't have however is all the WR reads attached to those concepts. That's another part of offensive football the game doesn't represent very well and the number one reason why I think a lot of the RnS concepts aren't in the game. Zone coverage is already bad enough, if you add smart routes to all the plays the offense would potentially have an even greater advantage.

Oneback
08-01-2012, 01:46 PM
@gigemaggs99 The reason everyone says pick an offense and learn it inside out is because you have to know how to adjust to what the defense is showing you. My advice would be to pick a play, one play, that you want to base our offense around - is it zone read, under center power, y-stick, etc. You then must learn how the defense must react to stop said play (in NCAA this can be hard due to its inherent problems) and find constraint plays that attack the defensive adjustments. In NCAA this is a lot easier to do in the passing game than it is in the running game however now that the zone read "works" you can build an offense around it.

gigemaggs99
08-01-2012, 01:53 PM
I'm wondering if maybe it's just not possible to mimic the things you're talking about on a PS3 or Xbox 360, maybe sometime in the future on a super console. Maybe a Super Gaming PC would be able to process and handle all the different codes it would take.

I'm thinking in terms of the option reads you're referring to on the different route concepts and things like the Air Raid or Spread O-line splits. I'm just guessing here but I would think that the animations are triggered for tackles, jukes, etc based on the players positions on the virtual field. It's much simpler for the makers of the game to have one set of animation triggers, therefore they keep the line splits the same. If all of a sudden there were bigger line splits like you're describing in real life, I figure for the game it would throw "animations-triggers" off like, holding, false start, draw playes, blitzing, etc... things that have animations or x=y coding for them to take place. If that space is messed with it wouldn't work OR they would need a strong machine (more than the current Next gen can handle) to process the extra sets of codes. Right now with all the O-line alignments the same it's one set of codes.

Another example of this coding issue is the wildcat. In all other formations you can audible or quick-audible to another play. When I'm in Wildcat I can't do things like that, or manually put guys in motion. It seems very limited, but it's probably a big feat to code the guys to line up w/ the QB in the Y spot or put the HB in as the QB. More would always be nicer but I think there is a limit as to what the current machines can handle.

gigemaggs99
08-01-2012, 02:02 PM
@gigemaggs99 The reason everyone says pick an offense and learn it inside out is because you have to know how to adjust to what the defense is showing you. My advice would be to pick a play, one play, that you want to base our offense around - is it zone read, under center power, y-stick, etc. You then must learn how the defense must react to stop said play (in NCAA this can be hard due to its inherent problems) and find constraint plays that attack the defensive adjustments. In NCAA this is a lot easier to do in the passing game than it is in the running game however now that the zone read "works" you can build an offense around it.


Sounds good, I really like the STICK play and I enjoy running a good read option, my third "go to play" would be some sort of Shallow Cross. So I'll start with those. I figure that leads me to an Air Raid PB, then I just need to find one, stick with it, and learn it.

Sometimes it's the simple things that can cause confusion. Last night my buddy and I played are nightly "darby". I took the Midd TN St BLUE RAIDERS against his
Troy Trojans. I used the WV PB and have been sticking w/ the 3-3-5 Def pb. I pretty much stayed in the SG split off and ran read option, triple option, hb base, and threw in some shallow crosses. I was able to run the ball pretty well on him. At times I kinda feel like I'm cheesing, not opening up my playbook more or giving him more looks, but then I also think well if I only have 1 look but multiple plays it's gotta be hard to stop b/c he doesn't know if it's a run or a pass and then you throw in the option runs and it's hard to nail down where the attack is coming from.

http://countingdownto.com/countdown/113581
http://countingdownto.com/countdown-page/show/FIGHTING%20TEXAS%20AGGIE%20FOOTBALL|503ef350|1

Dr Death
08-01-2012, 02:34 PM
Sounds good, I really like the STICK play and I enjoy running a good read option, my third "go to play" would be some sort of Shallow Cross. So I'll start with those. I figure that leads me to an Air Raid PB, then I just need to find one, stick with it, and learn it.

Sometimes it's the simple things that can cause confusion. Last night my buddy and I played are nightly "darby". I took the Midd TN St BLUE RAIDERS against his
Troy Trojans. I used the WV PB and have been sticking w/ the 3-3-5 Def pb. I pretty much stayed in the SG split off and ran read option, triple option, hb base, and threw in some shallow crosses. I was able to run the ball pretty well on him. At times I kinda feel like I'm cheesing, not opening up my playbook more or giving him more looks, but then I also think well if I only have 1 look but multiple plays it's gotta be hard to stop b/c he doesn't know if it's a run or a pass and then you throw in the option runs and it's hard to nail down where the attack is coming from.

Just to give you my take on that bolded part as well as your comment above about taking over a "D" team and the WR's not having the "awareness" to run the R&S... What I put in bold above is one of the beauties of my offense, which is 5-Wide. I have two basic formations: 5-Wide w/ Trips Right or 5-Wide w/ Trips Left. And out of those two formations I have a plethora of plays I use. My current playbook - given the awesome title of: 5-Wide - :D has 90 plays in it, and some of those I may only run once a game. In real life when I've coached it before I always kept the playbook at around 32-40 plays. And it drives people nuts because there is no "tell." Two formations and they never know what's coming other than it's a pass.

Now, as far as a "D" team and the R&S, this is another major problem w/ EA. They assume that a "D" team, like :MTSU:, will have nothing but dumb players and thus, their awareness levels will be low. What EA doesn't take into account is that those teams practice their offense daily and by the time the season begins, their WR's would know the offense. It would be fine if they had one WR who was just too dumb to get it down, but not the whole team.

The year June Jones took over at :SMU: EA had all the WR's w/ awareness levels in the upper 50's to lower 60's. So - my suggestion to you is this; if you want to be :MTSU: and use the R&S, just go in and manually raise your WR's awareness ratings. It would be just like if a coach went there and had an entire Spring and Summer to get his guys up to speed on the offense... they would begin to get it down and understand it. It boggles the mind why EA can't figure this out.

gigemaggs99
08-01-2012, 02:54 PM
just go in and manually raise your WR's awareness ratings. It would be just like if a coach went there and had an entire Spring and Summer to get his guys up to speed on the offense... they would begin to get it down and understand it. It boggles the mind why EA can't figure this out.


This is a great idea, I'll do this on my offline dynasty. It might be a little hard to do in our online dynasty. It would open a can of worms as far as what is agreed upon as an acceptable level of "editing". But I like the idea for offline.

JeffHCross
08-01-2012, 07:23 PM
I'm wondering if maybe it's just not possible to mimic the things you're talking about on a PS3 or Xbox 360, maybe sometime in the future on a super console. Maybe a Super Gaming PC would be able to process and handle all the different codes it would take.It's possible, though you're right that the processing time is considerable, and that may not be acceptable given a 60 fps framerate.

But, I believe, the initial problem is still the initial coding. AI is still a "final frontier" of sorts, and replicating "gut instinct" is another layer beyond that. You can list all the "rules" that a given player follows in football, but translating that recognition to artificial intelligence is a struggle at best, and impossible at worst.


Another example of this coding issue is the wildcat. In all other formations you can audible or quick-audible to another play. When I'm in Wildcat I can't do things like that, or manually put guys in motion. It seems very limited, but it's probably a big feat to code the guys to line up w/ the QB in the Y spot or put the HB in as the QB. More would always be nicer but I think there is a limit as to what the current machines can handle.If memory serves, the Wildcat used to allow audibles, but it could be exploited to allow a team to run Shotgun with an HB at QB.


They assume that a "D" team, like :MTSU:, will have nothing but dumb players and thus, their awareness levels will be low.Huh? A "D" team automatically equals dumb? I'd be surprised if anyone would assume that. The more likely explanation is that lowering AWR is the easiest way to deflate OVR without severely impacting their physical attributes (SPD, AGI, ACC), or their ability to perform on the field (CTH, CIT, SPC). There are problems with this approach, I grant you, but I don't believe it's because they think MTSU's players are dumb. It's the same reason that an otherwise top-flight freshman will come in with 40 AWR.

Dr Death
08-01-2012, 09:29 PM
Huh? A "D" team automatically equals dumb? I'd be surprised if anyone would assume that. The more likely explanation is that lowering AWR is the easiest way to deflate OVR without severely impacting their physical attributes (SPD, AGI, ACC), or their ability to perform on the field (CTH, CIT, SPC). There are problems with this approach, I grant you, but I don't believe it's because they think MTSU's players are dumb. It's the same reason that an otherwise top-flight freshman will come in with 40 AWR.


Whatever the excuse, it's inexcusable that some of the players have such low awareness, just like you mention w/ an incoming freshman. But my experience is you look at :USC: - :Notre_Dame: - :Texas: - and of course :Florida_State: as well as any other "big-time" school and their players don't have that "dumb" problem. It's just one more thing in the mountain of what is wrong in the game. At least they gave us global editing to take care of this problem.

JeffHCross
08-01-2012, 09:35 PM
But my experience is you look at :USC: - :Notre_Dame: - :Texas: - and of course :Florida_State: as well as any other "big-time" school and their players don't have that "dumb" problem.All of those schools are also A+ teams with very high ratings. Bad examples ;)

Dr Death
08-01-2012, 10:22 PM
All of those schools are also A+ teams with very high ratings. Bad examples ;)

That was the point Jeff... are all the kids at those school's "smarter?" No. In fact, many of them are probably less smart - save for :Notre_Dame:, but even they've had some kids do some things that make you question their intellect. I think "awareness" should be tied in w/ the coach of each team and - when applicable - the OC/DC. The better the coach, the higher the awareness and the quicker it will increase.

gigemaggs99
08-01-2012, 10:25 PM
I don't know about this "dumb factor"...oops does that make ME dumb :dunno:

Just kidding, I do know that when I try and recruit at UMASS it's funny. I will have 1 maybe 2 1 star recruits interested in the program. Then in my offline dynasty with my Aggies I can put "any" in all the spots and then put interest at TOP 10 (same as UMASS) and there will be 400+ including multiple 4 star recruits. I would think the disparity between the A+ and D teams would be less. If you can go to texas and be 3rd string/practice squad or you can go to UMASS and start, wouldn't you go to UMASS? Maybe they go to get the ring or to be on tv who knows. I just know recruiting with a D team is HARD.

Oneback
08-01-2012, 10:51 PM
It all has to do with the ratings system. In order to have a team rated as a D you have to take away somewhere. There are athletic kids on those squads that can play, however because the rating system jacks up the OVR when the player is both athletic and has high awareness they lower the awareness to bring down the OVR (which means nothing). Just like how they give incoming WR's low agility to artificially lower the OVR when in the game all it uses is the RTE rating. You can have a WR with 0 AGI but 99 RTE and they will run awesome routes. So you give a kid 87 RTE but 70 AGI and his OVR goes down but in the game he's awesome.

Now if you want to talk about how they should overhaul the rating system we can go down that road, but I think we all understand why it is they do these things to the rosters.

Dr Death
08-01-2012, 11:36 PM
I don't know about this "dumb factor"...oops does that make ME dumb :dunno:

Just kidding, I do know that when I try and recruit at UMASS it's funny. I will have 1 maybe 2 1 star recruits interested in the program. Then in my offline dynasty with my Aggies I can put "any" in all the spots and then put interest at TOP 10 (same as UMASS) and there will be 400+ including multiple 4 star recruits. I would think the disparity between the A+ and D teams would be less. If you can go to texas and be 3rd string/practice squad or you can go to UMASS and start, wouldn't you go to UMASS? Maybe they go to get the ring or to be on tv who knows. I just know recruiting with a D team is HARD.

Now you're jumping around a bit... from awareness to recruiting... but w/ recruiting set to Heisman, it should be tough. Impossible? No. Tougher than :Texas_A&M:? Yes. I get what you're saying about going somewhere and being 3rd string versus a starter elsewhere, but if I were a Senior in high school right now, I would go to the school that best suited my skills or was the best fit for my playing style.

As per the "dumbed-down" players though, to expand on my point about how wrong EA has it, back in 1998 :Hawaii: went 0-12 and had lost 18 straight dating back to 1997, they were also dead last in total offense in 1998. Then June Jones entered the fray. He told the team they would be # 1 in offense in 1999 and most of the team laughed! Like this guy > :D

They thought JJ was off his rocker. Then he began teaching them the R&S. They went 9-4 and were # 2 in offense. Were they a "D" rated team prior to Jones? No. They were an "F-" rated team that was on the brink of disbanding the football program altogether. Yet Jones has a reputation for being a great teacher and it showed during his nine years at :Hawaii: and continues to show at :SMU:.

It's the same w/ Mike Leach. Where was :Texas_Tech: before Leach? Not much more than a minor blip on the college football scene. W/ Leach - 10 years - 10 straight bowl games - and big games on prime time television. I haven't even looked at where EA has :Washington_State: rated this year, but I'm sure it's probably low. That will change after this coming season and global editing makes it easier, but it's so ridiculous that they do some of the things the way they do.

Perhaps making a change to the way a player's overall changes is in order. Say he goes up 1 point for every 10 awareness points. That way a 69 overall WR w/ 53 awareness could be bumped up to 73 awareness but would only be a 71 overall. The fact that they don't take coaches and their ability to teach into account is beyond absurd to me.

Oneback
08-02-2012, 12:18 AM
Honestly to tell you the truth I don't think awareness should be in the game the way its used now, because your right the way its setup now it doesn't account for a coaches ability to coach a player. But I'm also of the mindset that in Dynasty mode coaching carousel should be a lot deeper and we as "head coaches" of the team should have the ability to hire and fire not only our coordinators but also position coaches, those position coaches would be rated mainly on their ability to coach their position, the higher the rating the faster certain ratings would go up with the players. Additionally, I'd like to see some sort of mechanic where you set your game plan for the week based on your opponent (opponent scouting would need to be deeper as well), you would assign percentages to certain plays, concepts or techniques you want your team/players to work on. The more they work on those areas the more their ratings would go up in for example pass rush moves or if I practiced Cover 2 80% of the time that week my team should be pretty damn good at Cover 2 but they may not be good at Cover 3, the just is that players would have an awareness rating tied to certain concepts and the more you practice/run those concepts the better your players would be at them.

This sounds awesome for Dynasty but wouldn't have much impact for online play, maybe there there's overall awareness that follows the user no matter what team he chooses and players get a ratings (AWR) boost when Cover 2 is called, it would still be based off their base awareness but lets say they get a +5 awareness when Cover 2 is called.

I think it would add a lot of depth to the game, but in the end there are a lot of other things that need to be fixed prior to this being put in.

JeffHCross
08-02-2012, 06:37 PM
Perhaps making a change to the way a player's overall changes is in order. Say he goes up 1 point for every 10 awareness points. That way a 69 overall WR w/ 53 awareness could be bumped up to 73 awareness but would only be a 71 overall. The fact that they don't take coaches and their ability to teach into account is beyond absurd to me.Like OB said, there are massive, massive questions/issues/problems/whatever you want to call it with the way OVR is calculated and how that reflects on-field performance. There is also a big disconnect between how players progress in real-life (http://www.thegamingtailgate.com/forums/showthread.php?1794-JeffHCross-Project-2-Progression-Examined&highlight=) (at least as reflected by the default rosters) and how they progress year-over-year in Dynasty.


I have two basic formations: 5-Wide w/ Trips Right or 5-Wide w/ Trips Left. And out of those two formations I have a plethora of plays I use. My current playbook - given the awesome title of: 5-Wide - :D has 90 plays in it, and some of those I may only run once a game. In real life when I've coached it before I always kept the playbook at around 32-40 plays. And it drives people nuts because there is no "tell." Two formations and they never know what's coming other than it's a pass.I clearly have a problem with my playbook being focused. I have almost as many formations as you do plays!

Dr Death
08-02-2012, 10:06 PM
I clearly have a problem with my playbook being focused. I have almost as many formations as you do plays!

There's only one thing that a guy cannot have too much of, and since I believe this board has only gentlemen posting, I rather doubt I need to spell out what that one thing is... :D :D :D But w/ playbooks... make it easier on yourself Jeff. Pick a few formations and and try to keep it around 80-120 plays. If you think that sounds boring, consider Leach w/ his minimalistic approach and the fact that the R&S originally had only 8 plays!

EIGHT!!! EA is half way to where the R&S was in 1975!!! :D :D :D

Oneback
08-02-2012, 11:29 PM
Speaking of # of plays, I started with 287 plays this year and I've slowly been widdling it down - right now I am sitting at 160 but most of those are all the same concepts, of those 160 I probably only use 80. If we had the ability to tag routes other than the limited (but decent) set of hot routes I'd probably have a lot less plays.

JeffHCross
08-03-2012, 07:55 PM
If you think that sounds boring, consider Leach w/ his minimalistic approach and the fact that the R&S originally had only 8 plays!It's not that it's boring ... hell, I wish I could minimize my playbook that much (my original offensive design for 13 would have had ~50 plays), but I just find myself unable to commit to an offensive scheme like that. I've had too many occasions where my opponent stops what I'm trying to do, and I need a counter (or a counter-counter) punch for that eventuality.

Oneback
08-03-2012, 08:53 PM
Let's take a look at what you need in a playbook....

Passing Game:

You need plays that fit the different situations you will face: 3rd and Long, 3rd and Med, 3rd and Short, 3rd and Extra Long, 1st and 10, Go for It, Goal Line, Red Zone, Last 3 and stall, In those situations you will need plays that attack Cover 0, 1, 2, 3, 2 Man, 3 Sky, 3 Cloud, 4 and prevent. Make a grid with the situations down the left hand side and the coverage's along the top, then start filling things in, I'd say keep it to three or under in each category. Some plays will probably fit in more than one category.

Once your done with that go start a playbook and choose only those plays in the formations that have the most of them.

Running Game:

I'm running from the spread this year so I like to build in running plays where I already have a constraint play in my passing game, anything more than that is overkill. Throw in play-action off your top running plays and screens.

You've now built a complete offense.

JeffHCross
08-03-2012, 08:58 PM
Hush, you. We talked about this last weekend. Stop trying to be logical! :D

gigemaggs99
08-03-2012, 09:24 PM
Let's take a look at what you need in a playbook....

Passing Game:

You need plays that fit the different situations you will face: 3rd and Long, 3rd and Med, 3rd and Short, 3rd and Extra Long, 1st and 10, Go for It, Goal Line, Red Zone, Last 3 and stall, In those situations you will need plays that attack Cover 0, 1, 2, 3, 2 Man, 3 Sky, 3 Cloud, 4 and prevent. Make a grid with the situations down the left hand side and the coverage's along the top, then start filling things in, I'd say keep it to three or under in each category. Some plays will probably fit in more than one category.

Once your done with that go start a playbook and choose only those plays in the formations that have the most of them.

Running Game:

I'm running from the spread this year so I like to build in running plays where I already have a constraint play in my passing game, anything more than that is overkill. Throw in play-action off your top running plays and screens.

You've now built a complete offense.

This sounds amazing! I need to start a spreadsheet with this idea.

It seems like now, the way I play is...just silly compared to this idea of having a "complete game plan". I guess I win, probably b/c of luck...it seems like when I play my buddy I can mix it up, using the Air Raid one time, the WCO the next, the Spread the next time. But the problem seems like I feel like I'm forcing my will on his defense. I pick Stick for example from the Air Raid. I run it no matter what he calls on Defense. I make my reads and throw to the open WR and move on. It seems like I do alright until my WRs drop the ball or I get sacked. But it doesn't seem to matter what defense he comes out in. If I see a mis-match pre-snap I will of course hot route and go for the throat, but other than that I just run the plays as called.

The other reason I do this is, I'm not sure if you could say there is a logical way to the order in which he picks his defense. I know he blitzes a lot and if he doesn't blitz he likes to play Man. What I'm saying is, how do you use your "complete package" when the defense, for the lack of a nicer way of putting it, seems to call their plays at "random"?

I can see this complete plan would work if the defense had a history or tendencies in it's play-calling. How do you implement the complete plan if there aren't really tendencies? I hope this ? makes sense.

Thanks!

Oneback
08-03-2012, 10:11 PM
To quote Gregory House, "Everybody Lies"...oh wait, Everyone has Tendencies - you just listed your buddies. In the end there are several ways to combat users where you haven't learned their tendencies, remember those plays that fit in multiple categories, start off using those, this will give you a cover 2 beater to one side and a Cover 3 beater to the other for example. Another way to do it is to setup your playbook in such a way that you can utilize your formation audibles to take advantage of whatever defense they come out in.

Once you get a flow going they will be forced to adjust to what your doing, your job now is to know what to call that "Go For It" play when they have started adjusting to your bread and butter.

My advice is to find a play or two that you enjoy or are really good at: zone read and bubble screen. This is a great combination of plays as bubble is a great constraint play for zone read...if the defense has less defenders than blockers run the zone read, once they start to cheat another defender inside throw the bubble, then at some point in the game they will be forced to call something to cover both, but they'll give you something deep when they do...now is the time to go for it!

Of course this is all generalities as most of the people reading this thread are in my OD and I'm not going to give away my game plan, but I hope you understand where I'm going with it, if not I can elaborate some more.

gigemaggs99
08-03-2012, 10:34 PM
To quote Gregory House, "Everybody Lies"...oh wait, Everyone has Tendencies - you just listed your buddies. In the end there are several ways to combat users where you haven't learned their tendencies, remember those plays that fit in multiple categories, start off using those, this will give you a cover 2 beater to one side and a Cover 3 beater to the other for example. Another way to do it is to setup your playbook in such a way that you can utilize your formation audibles to take advantage of whatever defense they come out in.

Once you get a flow going they will be forced to adjust to what your doing, your job now is to know what to call that "Go For It" play when they have started adjusting to your bread and butter.

My advice is to find a play or two that you enjoy or are really good at: zone read and bubble screen. This is a great combination of plays as bubble is a great constraint play for zone read...if the defense has less defenders than blockers run the zone read, once they start to cheat another defender inside throw the bubble, then at some point in the game they will be forced to call something to cover both, but they'll give you something deep when they do...now is the time to go for it!

Of course this is all generalities as most of the people reading this thread are in my OD and I'm not going to give away my game plan, but I hope you understand where I'm going with it, if not I can elaborate some more.


Makes very good sense. Thank you sir. I'm glad I'm not playing you LOL :deadhorse: I think I'd be lucky to get a 1st down....

I want to use the WCO so I'm going to start with the spreadsheet you mentioned. My problem is picking a PB, I'm not whooped on making one so I'm trying to decide on San Diego St vs USC's. I guess like you said I could make my own and then I would have less plays to pick from and only those plays that I know how to run efficiently.

JeffHCross
08-03-2012, 11:04 PM
make it easier on yourself Jeff. Pick a few formations and and try to keep it around 80-120 plays.

Let's take a look at what you need in a playbook....If it makes you guys feel any better:
A) I got my ass handed to me in the first half, and didn't even break 100 yards
B) I only scored 7 points in the first half
C) I had to get a last second FG to beat the CPU
D) I probably spent 2+ hours on this playbook, and didn't end up using 90% of it (though part of the problem there is that I tried I-Form in the first half, it didn't work at all, and for the rest of the game I was playing from behind)

:D :D :D :D :D :smh: :fp:


But the problem seems like I feel like I'm forcing my will on his defense. I pick Stick for example from the Air Raid. I run it no matter what he calls on Defense. I make my reads and throw to the open WR and move on.FWIW, that's how I normally play, and I've been pretty successful with it (including several victories against one Mr. "Oneback"). It can work for you if you're pretty good at mixing it up, and if you know your playbook really well.

gigemaggs99
08-04-2012, 09:59 AM
Ok, Oneback...I need your help. I haven't made the spread-sheet yet and that will probably answer some of my questions.

I went in and created a custom PB. I used the USC as the base. I deleted every single play until I was down to 1, it wouldn't let me get to 0 but once I started adding more it let me delete that remaining 1.

In the Coaching the Multiple West Coast Offense by Ron Jenkins book it has a play-call sheet layed out. It basically has your spread-sheet idea just in an organized manner. So I went through and added the formations it shows, and I "tried" to add the plays. The problem is not all the plays match up exactly as they call them or describe them in the book. I could make them but it would require some massive practice and being able to do hot-routes in my sleep. So I made do with what EA has.

Then I went and added running plays, PA, Screens....MY PROBLEM is I see other plays in there and I'm OH YEAH I like that one...for example, this play-call sheet only has 1 run play from the DALLAS formation which I found was an ACE SPREAD. This run play is the 30 HB DRAW, so I added the Draw from Ace Spread. I also like the counter, and the dive...etc.. etc... well I did this in the other formations and before I knew it I have 344 plays. Instead of listing them all here I think it would be easier to create a playbook on NCAA Playbooks 2012, then link it here and perhaps you can go over it and tell me what I should cut out so I don't have so many plays.

I like the idea of having a smaller playbook so I don't have to sort through so much trying to find that one play I really need in this situation, but I also fight the thought of, well it would be nice to have that little wrinkle just in-case I want to bust it out, i.e. hb pass, or flea flicker. I know I don't run them but 1-2 times per game but not having them there means I will run them 0 times.

As far as formations, I find that I hardly ever use Goal line, would you suggest removing it all together and if I need those tough yards I should use something like I-Form Normal w/ the JUMBO package sub?

Thanks again for your help.

JeffHCross
08-04-2012, 11:14 AM
GigEm, I can't give you much advice, except Re: Goalline. If you truly don't use it, don't keep it. But it is good to have something equivalent that you already use. Either Jumbo with I-Form Normal, if you already plan to have I-Form Normal. Or my personal preference is either I-Form Tight or Strong Twins Over. If you're going to be using either of those formations already, they can both work as solid Goalline replacements.

gigemaggs99
08-04-2012, 03:13 PM
Ok here is the playbook I have so far. I must be off by one, the website says I have 349 plays and PS3 says I have 348. Either way I'm going to make the spread sheet and TRY to shrink it.

http://www.playbooks2012.com/browseCustom.php?pb=2684

JeffHCross
08-04-2012, 06:20 PM
Ok here is the playbook I have so far. I must be off by one, the website says I have 349 plays and PS3 says I have 348.Shotgun Spread has two HB Draws.

irishfbfan1
08-12-2012, 07:05 AM
Speaking of # of plays, I started with 287 plays this year and I've slowly been widdling it down - right now I am sitting at 160 but most of those are all the same concepts, of those 160 I probably only use 80. If we had the ability to tag routes other than the limited (but decent) set of hot routes I'd probably have a lot less plays.



And this is my offensive approach. I run the same concepts but out of as many formations possible.

PDuncanOSU
08-20-2012, 12:59 PM
I have two basic formations: 5-Wide w/ Trips Right or 5-Wide w/ Trips Left. And out of those two formations I have a plethora of plays I use. My current playbook - given the awesome title of: 5-Wide - :D has 90 plays in it, and some of those I may only run once a game. In real life when I've coached it before I always kept the playbook at around 32-40 plays. And it drives people nuts because there is no "tell." Two formations and they never know what's coming other than it's a pass.

I've kind of taken the opposite approach with my playbook. I try to run only a small handfull of plays out of many different personell sets and formations. My idea was to make it look complicated to the defense, constantly changing personell and formations, but keeping it simple for me.

My current playbook has around 25 formations out of Pistol and Shotgun including everything from Pistol - Jumbo (3 TE, 1 WR, 1 HB) to Shotgun - 5 Wide. My playbook total shows around 300 plays, but it's really only around 15 concepts (HB inside run, HB Counter, HB outside run, QB Wrap, Read Option, Speed Option, PA Rollout, WR Screen, Bubble Screen, Stick, Mesh, H/Z/X/Y Cross, Smash, Drive, & Verts).

gigemaggs99
09-17-2012, 03:57 PM
I'm not saying that I enjoy Manziel's inability to make all his reads in our new offense, but it does seem like you could make a case that we run something similar to a Wildcat formation on every down. It seems like he looks for 1 receiver, if covered he takes off running. Is this really that much different than a pass option out of a wildcat formation?

All joking aside, I hope he learns to make more reads and learns to slide. He's going to get hammered one of these times, not to mention learn better ball security he has that thing hanging out there just waiting for it to be slapped away.