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Dr Death
04-04-2012, 02:33 AM
I realize it is still very early in the year and we have yet to see any game-play video, so who knows where this thread will go, but I have discovered a lot of people that don't know much about the Run & Shoot who try it out in the game and love it. That said, last year's game didn't feature a true R&S offense. Sure, it had some R&S plays - about 4 - but the majority of plays have been in EA Football games for years.

I have no idea if they have expanded on the R&S this coming year or not, but I want to help those who are intrigued by this offense and want to learn more about it. In the video game here are the basic tools you will need to run this offense well:

1: A good O-line - You need time on some routes as they develop and a bad line will leave you in 2nd and long too many times. It's also possible that DT's will still warp unrealistically to get to your QB, but right now, we don't know.

2: YOU need to know how to read defenses prior to the snap AND after the snap. YOU also need to know where each WR will be on a given play. If you don't know how to read defenses you will not succeed w/ this offense. If you do - and trust me - so far in EA games, reading defenses is a piece of cake, then you should have no problems.

3: WR's that can do two things: Catch the football first and foremost and - have the speed to make yards after they catch the ball.

4: A great RB who can pass block when needed, run when needed and catch very well when needed. Most R&S teams have always had two types of backs on their team: A big, bruising back like Ironhead Heyward or Lorenzo White or Gary Brown and a smaller, quicker back like Erric Pegram or Allen Pinkett. Having one of each gives you many options.

5: You need to know the routes your option receivers will be running based on what the D is showing before the snap. Rarely - and I mean RARELY does the CPU defense show one thing and do something else, so unlike real life where the D might show Cover 2 then switch to Cover 3 or show Man w/ a safety deep and then blitz out of that, typically what the CPU defense shows before the snap is true to what they are running.

6: You need an accurate QB. Since the decision making will be on YOU, your QB's awareness need not be high, but in real life that part is a must.

I'm going to share some videos of the offense being explained and shown so those who want can see it in action and get a feel for it. This first video is of Colt Brennan explaining a play to Desmond Howard. Then they show that same play being run against Boise State for a TD. The second clip is some game cut-ups of the NY/NJ Knights from 1991 in the WFL. You will see two different QB's: # 10, who has a slow release from center and a slow passing release and often throws off the wrong foot, and also # 14, Bob Gagliano, who is much quicker in both his release from center and getting the ball out. This isn't a highlight video; you will see good and bad. But when it's good, just look at how wide open the WR's are. And lastly, I'll include a Houston Oiler video where Warren Moon ran the R&S to near perfection.

Feel free to ask any questions and as we get closer to the game being released, hopefully I'll be able to provide some insight and maybe give some of you some good options to running a very lethal offense.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6PsiBwdh7c


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9_EOl2K7GY&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUrXd7m7lTQ&feature=related

steelerfan
04-04-2012, 02:53 AM
While this offense isn't for me (frankly, I think it's glory days are long gone), I'll follow along and see if I can learn anything. :up:

Incidentally, the NY/NJ Knights played in the WLAF, not the WFL. The WFL played in 1974 and 1975.

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psusnoop
04-04-2012, 08:35 AM
I can always use help with my passing game. I'll be checking in on this thread too :up:

Dr Death
04-04-2012, 09:32 AM
While this offense isn't for me (frankly, I think it's glory days are long gone), I'll follow along and see if I can learn anything. :up:

Incidentally, the NY/NJ Knights played in the WLAF, not the WFL. The WFL played in 1974 and 1975.

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Thanks for the clarification on the WLAF. I know/knew they were in the "World League" but just got my abbreviations wrong. :D I am curious though as to why you feel the "glory days" for the offense are long gone? As you know, I'm sure, June Jones took over at :SMU:, a team that hadn't been to a bowl game since the Death Penalty, a period of 25 years, and in his 4 season's there {2008-2011} they've been to 3 straight bowl games and are 2-1 in those games, crushing a heavily favored :Nevada: team 45-10 and last year beating :Pitt: 28-6. After being able to recruit and change the attitude and many of the players, he's gone 23-17 at a school that hasn't won 23 games in God knows how many years.

Anyway, as game play stuff is released we'll get more in-depth and hopefully show you some things that you and others can use in the game.

steelerfan
04-04-2012, 11:00 AM
Thanks for the clarification on the WLAF. I know/knew they were in the "World League" but just got my abbreviations wrong. :D I am curious though as to why you feel the "glory days" for the offense are long gone? As you know, I'm sure, June Jones took over at :SMU:, a team that hadn't been to a bowl game since the Death Penalty, a period of 25 years, and in his 4 season's there {2008-2011} they've been to 3 straight bowl games and are 2-1 in those games, crushing a heavily favored :Nevada: team 45-10 and last year beating :Pitt: 28-6. After being able to recruit and change the attitude and many of the players, he's gone 23-17 at a school that hasn't won 23 games in God knows how many years.

Anyway, as game play stuff is released we'll get more in-depth and hopefully show you some things that you and others can use in the game.

I understand, but that's SMU. I guess, for me, until someone wins a MNC or a Super Bowl with the R&S, I'll just look at it as a gimmick offense that a handful of coaches use at small schools to try and mask their size and talent deficiencies.

That said, it doesn't, in any way, mean it's not valuable to have knowledge of it or that there is nothing for me to gain from it.

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morsdraconis
04-04-2012, 12:35 PM
I understand, but that's SMU. I guess, for me, until someone wins a MNC or a Super Bowl with the R&S, I'll just look at it as a gimmick offense that a handful of coaches use at small schools to try and mask their size and talent deficiencies.

That said, it doesn't, in any way, mean it's not valuable to have knowledge of it or that there is nothing for me to gain from it.

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Tom Brady and the New England Patriots have won 3 Super Bowls using aspects of the Run & Shoot offense within their offensive system.

The Run & Shoot offense is used in QUITE A FEW offensive systems in the NFL. Pretty sure Mike Martz and the Rams with the "Greatest Show on Turf" was an aspect of the Run & Shoot offense.

ram29jackson
04-04-2012, 12:50 PM
Tom Brady and the New England Patriots have won 3 Super Bowls using aspects of the Run & Shoot offense within their offensive system.

The Run & Shoot offense is used in QUITE A FEW offensive systems in the NFL. Pretty sure Mike Martz and the Rams with the "Greatest Show on Turf" was an aspect of the Run & Shoot offense.

Don Coryell Says "Your welcome "

Dr Death
04-04-2012, 01:25 PM
To expand on this a bit, the first SB that the Pats won they were a fairly conservative team since Brady was an untested QB. But something few people probably know is that when Bill Belichick was at Cleveland in the early to mid 1990's, he had his team scrimmage against the Falcons a lot and he asked June Jones a ton of questions because he was very intrigued by the offense.

The Patriots have used a lot of the R&S in their offense, particularly when they had the personnel to run it. Last year they went to a lot more 2 TE sets because of the talent they had.

The Rams under Martz were always an Air Coryell offense. That has been Martz' offense since he first became an OC.

And to provide an answer for Steelerfan, what you have to realize about this offense is this: It was created, in the form we know today, by Mouse Davis, who was coaching at a high school w/ under-sized kids who, quite simply, weren't as good as their competition. Davis got the idea of the offense from a book by a coach from the 1950's-60's named Tiger Ellison.

The reason Mouse decided to use the offense was because of the fact that he didn't have the great talent that many of their opponents had, but this offense gave them a chance to win, which it has done everywhere it's been. In the NFL, only three teams used it - Detroit - Houston - Atlanta - and all went to the playoffs w/ it despite having not been playoff teams for years.

I know that Jones likes to take over struggling schools and build them back up. But in doing so, he also provides himself w/ a tremendous challenge. Just once I would like to see his offense in the hands of a major school.

One of the main misconceptions about the offense is that it "scores too quickly" and your own defense wears down because it is on the field too much. Whilst it is true that the offense can score quickly, it can also take lots of time off the clock, using short passes mixed w/ occasional runs to grind out long scoring drives.

Another misconception is that you can't run effectively out of the offense. This is pure rubbish. In the NFL, during it's run, teams averaged between 4.6 and 5.1 per carry, w/ 4.1 being the lowest a team averaged. The 5.1 was of course aided by Barry Sanders, but even the other teams had great success running the football. In 1995, the Atlanta Falcons became the first team in NFL history to have a QB throw for over 4,000 yards, three WR's have over 1,000 yards in receptions and a RB rush for over 1,000 yards.

At :Hawaii: Jones had a back, Nate Ilaoa, that averaged 7.6 per carry two years in a row. {643 yards on 85 carries and 990 yards on 131 carries in 2005/06}

Hopefully after the 17th and the Game Play video blog, I can find out more about the new game and how using this offense, either entirely, or just aspects of it, can help your team out and make the game a lot of fun, especially for those who are struggling w/ the passing game. From what I have heard there is something new this year in the passing game, what that is, I have no idea. But hopefully after the 17th we'll know more and can address more of this offense at that point.

baseballplyrmvp
04-04-2012, 01:30 PM
Don Coryell Says "Your welcome "the run and shoot was created before the air coryell. the main differences between the two, are that the run and shoot mostly uses a 4 wr passing attack, whereas the air coryell (at least how the chargers ran it) was run out of anything - ace formations, i formations, 3 wr sets, 4 wide, anything. the AC features a stronger inside run game than the R&S. other than that, there isnt a whole lot different between the two. basically the air coryell is designed for teams set up with pro style offense personnel, whereas the run and shoot favors the spread offense personnel.

steelerfan
04-04-2012, 01:46 PM
Tom Brady and the New England Patriots have won 3 Super Bowls using signals stolen from opposing defenses.

Fixed. :P

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JeffHCross
04-04-2012, 08:06 PM
The Bills' K-Gun offense had R&S principles in it, didn't it? Or did I just assume that? Of course, the Bills ran a TE (which June Jones would never do, from what I've heard), but I thought the scheme was still R&S in nature. Obviously the Oilers of that time were R&S, and if it wasn't for the Bills, they probably would have made their own SB run during that time period. (On that note, I'd love to be able to run a K-Gun offense in NCAA ... perhaps someday I'll figure out if any of the playbooks work for it).

My primary problem with the R&S in NCAA 12 (or maybe it was NCAA 11, can't recall) is that the two Ace formations were essentially one formation of R&S and one formation of Air Raid / TTU. My offensive gameplans rely primarily on my opponent not being able to predict my playcall. Having the 2x2 and 3x1 formations with utterly different schematic principles ruined the book for me. Obviously, the shotgun running game has been so lackluster in this series that I honestly didn't even consider going SG full-time, which is really the only option I had.

Dr Death
04-04-2012, 08:35 PM
The Bills' K-Gun offense had R&S principles in it, didn't it? Or did I just assume that? Of course, the Bills ran a TE (which June Jones would never do, from what I've heard), but I thought the scheme was still R&S in nature. Obviously the Oilers of that time were R&S, and if it wasn't for the Bills, they probably would have made their own SB run during that time period. (On that note, I'd love to be able to run a K-Gun offense in NCAA ... perhaps someday I'll figure out if any of the playbooks work for it).

My primary problem with the R&S in NCAA 12 (or maybe it was NCAA 11, can't recall) is that the two Ace formations were essentially one formation of R&S and one formation of Air Raid / TTU. My offensive gameplans rely primarily on my opponent not being able to predict my playcall. Having the 2x2 and 3x1 formations with utterly different schematic principles ruined the book for me. Obviously, the shotgun running game has been so lackluster in this series that I honestly didn't even consider going SG full-time, which is really the only option I had.

Yes, Jeff, you are correct. The K-Gun - named after Jim Kelly - was created because Kelly went to the Bills after the USFL folded - thanks to ego-maniac Donald Trump - and Kelly had put up insane numbers running the R&S w/ the Gamblers in the USFL. He was very insistent that the Bills bring in his WR's from the Gamblers and run that offense. The Bills were reluctant, which is a shame, because one of Kelly's WR's in the USFL was Rickey Sanders who later starred for the Redskins and played for the Falcons in 1994.

But the Bills decided to try and meet Kelly halfway - they went 3-wide w/ a TE. And June Jones has used the TE before, I have some 1994/95 Falcon games on DVD where they employ a TE. Anyway, the K-Gun wasn't a full-on R&S but from what I've read and heard Kelly say in interviews, there were aspects of it in the K-Gun.

Another thing a lot of people don't know is that Bill Walsh - the West Coast Offense guru - implemented the Option Routes of the R&S into his offense. I believe it is in one of the America's Game segments where Dwight Clark, former 49er WR, talks about how having the ability to adjust their routes was so huge for their offense and they won Super Bowl XVI the first year they began doing that.

And I agree w/ you that the offenses in the game are confusing for people that don't know any better. This is one of my biggest gripes when EA came out and proclaimed to have the R&S in the game. They have something like four true R&S plays and the rest are passing/running plays that have long been in EA football games. They're sending a message to young kids and that message is wrong.

I know the Community Day chaps can't comment now, but if it's not addressed on the 17th I hope they can talk about this after that day, but there are two staples in both the R&S and the Air Raid that are either not in the game or the play is so broken it's not even worth trying to use.

The play not in the game is the Shovel Pass. How they can have an Option play but not a Shovel Pass is beyond me, and the play that is seriously broken is the Bubble Screen. Last year I counted, over the course of two games, how many times I called that play or audibled to that play and how many times it was successful. By successful, I mean gaining at least 5 yards. The numbers? 1 out of 25. Yet every Saturday the Bubble Screen is run over and over and rarely, if ever, loses yards or just gets blown up like it did in last year's game. The frustrating thing was in last years demo, the Bubble worked fine. But the final product produced a horribly broken play. 1 in 25 are the kind of odds that only The House in Vegas would like.

Marlowe
04-05-2012, 07:43 AM
and the play that is seriously broken is the Bubble Screen. Last year I counted, over the course of two games, how many times I called that play or audibled to that play and how many times it was successful. By successful, I mean gaining at least 5 yards. The numbers? 1 out of 25. Yet every Saturday the Bubble Screen is run over and over and rarely, if ever, loses yards or just gets blown up like it did in last year's game. The frustrating thing was in last years demo, the Bubble worked fine. But the final product produced a horribly broken play. 1 in 25 are the kind of odds that only The House in Vegas would like.

Yea it seems EA implemented the Greg Davis bubble screen. It works about the same % it did in real life. :mad:

baseballplyrmvp
04-05-2012, 10:03 AM
Yea it seems EA implemented the Greg Davis bubble screen. It works about the same % it did in real life. :mad:its the blocking logic. receivers didnt get the ai assignment upgrade that the o-linemen got last year, so they're stuck with running to a certain area and then looking for someone to block, rather than running to a defender to block him.

Dr Death
04-05-2012, 10:33 AM
its the blocking logic. receivers didnt get the ai assignment upgrade that the o-linemen got last year, so they're stuck with running to a certain area and then looking for someone to block, rather than running to a defender to block him.

It's more than just that, although what you're saying is true. But one, the QB delivers the ball in such a way that if you throw it normal, it forces the WR to get stuck in some animation where he turns his back to the defense catch the ball - gets stuck in that animation for roughly several seconds - and then gets creamed for a -1 loss - 0 yard gain - or a 1 yard gain.

Two - if you throw the ball hard, ie; press down hard on the WR button - the ball goes upfield about 5-8 yards off target.

It's such a simple play and I soon realized that calling it in the huddle was useless, because the D would always know what play I just called, so I turned it to an audible, calling it only against certain defenses; defenses that it should work very well against, like an all out blitz or Cover 3... but even then it would get blown up in one way or another.

My one big hope is that EA is already working on the next, nex-gen game. Because there's just no way we can start from scratch again on even more powerful engines and have another near decade of what has taken place on this gen, where we were promised by the industry that things would be so much better.

baseballplyrmvp
04-05-2012, 10:50 AM
It's more than just that, although what you're saying is true. But one, the QB delivers the ball in such a way that if you throw it normal, it forces the WR to get stuck in some animation where he turns his back to the defense catch the ball - gets stuck in that animation for roughly several seconds - and then gets creamed for a -1 loss - 0 yard gain - or a 1 yard gain.

Two - if you throw the ball hard, ie; press down hard on the WR button - the ball goes upfield about 5-8 yards off target.

It's such a simple play and I soon realized that calling it in the huddle was useless, because the D would always know what play I just called, so I turned it to an audible, calling it only against certain defenses; defenses that it should work very well against, like an all out blitz or Cover 3... but even then it would get blown up in one way or another.ya the bubble screen animation also seems to run in super slow motion too. i remember watching greg salas and kealoha pilares 2 years ago when hawaii went 10-3, and they were running that route as fast as they could....not lazily half-assing it out there like what the game shows. lol

Dr Death
04-05-2012, 11:02 AM
For anyone at EA who may be on this board, here is what the Bubble Screen should look like. This is from a high school team that uses the R&S offense and I only watched the first 1:36 of this video, but it's all here: Proper release from the QB, proper route running from the WR, weight and momentum matter for the defense as you see, several times, when a defender over-runs the receiver and also you see WR's that know how - and who - to block:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kER5Ds_fqnE

JerzeyReign
04-05-2012, 11:34 AM
Anytime I see anything about the Air Raid/Run And Shoot -- I always think Dr. Death. Whats your saying? 5 Wide. Throw often. :)

steelerfan
04-05-2012, 11:57 AM
For anyone at EA who may be on this board, here is what the Bubble Screen should look like. This is from a high school team that uses the R&S offense and I only watched the first 1:36 of this video, but it's all here: Proper release from the QB, proper route running from the WR, weight and momentum matter for the defense as you see, several times, when a defender over-runs the receiver and also you see WR's that know how - and who - to block:

Trust me. They know what it looks like. That's almost a bit insulting for you to think you're going to post a video and teach EA how the bubble screen should look.

The problem with getting it to look/work right is programming (in this case, very specifically, limitations). I have not been able to make any of the trips to the studio this year, so I don't know if there is any change with the bubble screen, but I wasn't given the impression (last year) that this was an easy fix (if it can be done at all). The issue has nothing to do with them not knowing what the play looks like. ;)

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Marlowe
04-05-2012, 12:00 PM
After watching those videos, I'm slightly puzzled. I've run the bubble in NCAA 12 with some success, mostly against zone and when there is no defender directly over the receiver. Yes the blocking sucks most days.

Couple of things you might want to try: 1. cancel the QB drop back animation 2. Lead up on the stick and bullet the pass as soon as the animation cancels. If there's a bad snap you're fudged. If you're late canceling you're fudged. I've had these go for 5 and I've had them go for a td. I've also had the blocking break down and taken a loss.

I don't know that you can run this every other down or with the same frequency you would if you are running this type of offense seeing as how it's current implementation is limited.

I wouldn't necessarily call it broken. Limited is probably a better description. And yes I would agree that it needs to be tuned in the next version.

Dr Death
04-05-2012, 12:29 PM
Trust me. They know what it looks like. That's almost a bit insulting for you to think you're going to post a video and teach EA how the bubble screen should look.

The problem with getting it to look/work right is programming (in this case, very specifically, limitations). I have not been able to make any of the trips to the studio this year, so I don't know if there is any change with the bubble screen, but I wasn't given the impression (last year) that this was an easy fix (if it can be done at all). The issue has nothing to do with them not knowing what the play looks like. ;)

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Believe me Steelerfan, it's not meant as an insult. When a company makes a claim - in this case - to have a certain play in their game, and that play is, in my experience, very broken, then I have to wonder what is the problem? Did they only look at one or two Bubble Screens? I don't know. So providing a video w/ multiple shots of that play would, I feel, have to help.

If the problem is programming and EA knows there is a limitation, then why put the play in the game at all? It's very frustrating when you run a very specific offense and yet that offense is rendered almost useless because certain staples of that offense are either not in the game or broken or - as Marlowe puts it - limited.

The demo last year had the play working correctly. I even posted about it. It may have been on OS or here, or both, I can't recall, but I did comment on them getting the play right. Then - the game came out and the play was back to where it was the year before; which was a broken mess.

So if it is programming, why did the demo work almost perfectly yet the final version had so many flaws???

steelerfan
04-05-2012, 02:32 PM
All I can tell you is that one of the Game Changers and I spent probably half an hour going over this play with one of the Game Play guys last year. We ran the play over and over and watched the replays. There was a specific limitation to how they could program the blocking that was preventing them from being able to get the play to work exactly the way they wanted it to work. There wasn't a lack of knowledge on their part, they just simply didn't have a direct way to make the blockers do what they wanted them to do.

I, honestly, don't remember how it ran in the demo last year so I can't really comment on that. However, in the 3 trips I made to Tiburon last year, I don't recall ever thinking it was working properly, so I'd be surprised if there was a drastic difference in the demo. If it's possible, I'll see if I can re-download the demo and take a look at some point.

As for putting the play in, and this is just a guess, I'd think that the heat they took from not having it in would be worse than having it be mostly ineffective. I'm really not sure.

In any event, I'm hoping that have been able to find a way to make the play more effective.

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gigemaggs99
05-14-2012, 03:12 PM
Can someone explain the concept of a "system QB"?

I used to hear that about Colt Brennan when he played under the RNS at Hawaii.

Doesn't the RNS QB have to know a lot of plays? Doesn't he have to know how to read the defense?

I'm just confused as to why it's looked down upon?

If a QB is good at reading the defense and has all the throws does it matter what "system" he is in?

Sure Brennan didn't become a super hall of fame QB in the NFL but there are a lot of QBs that don't make it in the pros, or let alone make it into the hall of fame.

What about Andrew Luck, isn't Stanford's offense similar to the "west coast offense"? Isn't that a "system" too?

I'm just not sure why when an offense is good or produces numbers it's considered a gimmick.

To me it seems like these teams that run this "gimmick systems" aren't good until they get a good defense. Hawaii just outscored their opponents, forced the other to throw to try and catch up. SMU does the same thing....ttu is another example they were throwing the ball all over the place with their airraid but didn't start winning a lot until their defense got better and shut the other team down.

So, I guess I'd like to know what it means to be a system QB. Or why is the RNS considered a lower level offense, seems like people say it's used when you don't have the personnel to run something else. I guess that argument doesn't' make sense to me, I thought you get the players or put them in the positions to make your system work. No?

I like watching SMU play. I like the RNS. It does seem like any other offense to me though, if it's not clicking it doesn't work. But I don't seem to lump it in a "less than" category for an offense. I watch Alabama too and sometime they will score less than 10 points a game. Their offense has an off day, the opponents defense shuts them down, but I don't just assume Alabama's offense is chump change.

I guess this discussion could fit in with Army/Navy/GT too. Their Flexbone/option attack. Some days it works great other days it doesn't.

I'm just trying to figure out how these offenses are categorized. I know we (A&M) had some "pro-style" offense last year, but our season had nothing to do w/ the offense. We lost MULTIPLE 2nd half leads most by A LOT and it didn't have much to do w/ the offense. It seemed like in the 2nd half the defense didn't make the adjustments that the other offense DID make and we continued to play the same as we did prior to 1/2 time. They found the weaknesses and just ran/passed all over us. It was like 2 quarters of good football, 1 quarter of not so good football and finally the 4th we were scratching our heads thinking the F?

Hopefully we'll see something better with the Air Raid shows that's coming to town, only time will tell. I also hope the "system" of the air raid can work against the SEC defenses. I worry about this as the RNS looks good against lesser defenses but for example Hawaii vs Georgia in the Sugar Bowl (GA 41- HI- 10) it didn't look so good.

Just wanted to put my thoughts out there as I can't wait for NCAA 13 to arrive.


EDIT: P.S. that video of the H/S team running the bubble screen, that guy had some serious YAC. He was running away from guys and breaking tackles like a beast. Thanks for posting the video. I like seeing stuff like that.

JeffHCross
05-14-2012, 07:27 PM
The concept of "system QB" has, unfortunately, very little to do with the actual skills of the quarterback in question. When someone says that a QB is a system QB, the implication (and, in some cases, sole intention) is to diminish that QBs accomplishments by saying that his statistics are a result of the system he plays in, rather than actual skill. In my admittedly less knowledgeable opinion, it came as a result of seeing guys like Andre Ware and David Klingler tear up the record book, and then suffer catastrophically at the next level. The concept was then further stereotyped when several consecutive Texas Tech QBs were put into that system and were undeniably successful at gaining yardage.

Personally, I don't buy completely into the concept. As you said, the RNS QBs have to make a lot of reads and have above-average ability to read defenses. Otherwise the option routes are dead on the table. Similarly, I didn't hear Joe Montana dismissed as a "system QB" when he had all his success, which, I think, was as much due to Bill Walsh's incredible offense (and Montana's unique capabilities in that offense) as it was Joe Montana being a great QB.

I think Sumlin's offense will work in the SEC, but he'll have to make some adjustments, not because of any weaknesses in the Air Raid, but because otherwise coaches like Nick Saban will adjust to him and find his weaknesses. IMHO, the advantage of "big-time" schools like Alabama, LSU, etc, is not a schematic advantage, but instead that their coaches are extremely adept at adjusting to their opponents. Just look at Alabama's dominance in the MNC game. Obviously they have a talent advantage over lesser competition as well, but a talent advantage doesn't just go out and win games by itself.

baseballplyrmvp
05-14-2012, 10:27 PM
gigs, system quarterback can refer to anything, but its most often associated with the pass heavy qb's. they've only gotten their recognition because of the numbers they put up and that was due to the "system" they played in. imo, every qb can be labelled as a system quarterback. andrew luck is as much of a product of the pro style/west coast offense as what tim tebow was from a spread option system.

personally, the reason for the lack of success that air raid/rns qb's have had in the pros is due to the nfl teams' stubbornness of trying to make a "pass heavy" qb fit their under center offense. i think the colt brennan's/graham herrell's of college football would be way more successful if the nfl teams would change their offenses rather than trying to change the qb. we kind of saw how successful tebow was this past year when denver changed its offense to something similar to what florida ran. he wasnt required to do things denver's way from the start; denver changed to what tebow already knew (if that makes sense?).

the rns is actually a fairly simple offense. a lot of the "plays" that you'll see, are more passing concepts thrown together that are designed to get one defender to bite, which will free up a different receiver. does the qb need to be able to read the defense? yes and no. the qb and wr's identify one of 5 or 6 defensive concepts pre play and just after the snap, and then adjusts their progression/routes based on what they read. its a high risk in that everyone has to be on the same page by reading the same defense, but assuming the receivers arent retarded, everyone should be fairly close to guessing right. if a qb can make all of the throws and read the defense well, he'll do well in the rns.

i think its a lower level offense, mostly because its easier to make it work successfully when the athleticism of the other team isnt as high. its also easier for teams to move the ball at the lower levels too, as their isnt as much responsibility placed on the qb. imo, the higher up you go, the harder it'll be to run the rns. georgia completely killed us in the 08 sugar bowl because their front 4 was so big and so fast that they could rush 4 and drop 7 every play AND they were causing enormous pressure on every play. however, it has been proven that an nfl team can have success with the rns. the obvious problem with it though, is that it cant really sustain a lead (as evidenced by houston oilers blowing a huge lead over buffalo in 1993).

gigemaggs99
05-14-2012, 11:32 PM
I couldn't agree more.

Seems like the NFL is stubborn. I guess the end "goal" is to make it to the pros and get paid to play (legally). I see a lot of good/great college QBs that will never make it at the next level b/c they are labeled system QBs and the pro scouts say their throwing mechanics are off. I guess the NFL wants a pocket passer that throws a perfect over the shoulder delivery. I understand they need to be able to get it over the D-line, etc...

And maybe the NFL teams have their "system" put in place so if the starter gets hurt the 2nd or 3rd string QB can step in and pick up the torch. If Denver practiced and tailored their gameplan around Tebow and then he got knocked out of the game I guess it would be a waste of practice.

I understand NFL is one thing and college is different. I guess this is why I enjoy college football more. To me there is a HUGE difference between college teams, styles, "systems" but in the NFL it all looks about the same....they all seem to run a Pro-style offense...whatever that really means I don't know but they all look the same.

I also agree that the better teams seem to be the ones that make the adjustments. As much as I don't like texas being an AGGIE and all Mac Brown to me is one of the better coaches out there. He wins with the players he has, he makes adjustments, they will be getting killed in the 1st half and in the second half they look like a different team and it's usually for the better.

We looked horrible last year. I work the home games (usher) so I get to see all the snaps and it was just silly how they would have a handful of plays, then they would come out in the 2nd half and it's like they had 15 plays in the first half, so the 2nd half they just shook up the order but still ran the same plays. I'm no coaching expert but I saw it so the other team HAD TO. They did and we would be shut out in the 2nd half. Same went for Defense, we did pretty good in the 1st half, then in the 2nd we ran the same blitzes, same coverages and the other team would torch us in the 2nd half.

Back to the college vs pro thing. I don't care if they go pro or not. I don't think that makes that big of a difference. I enjoy college football, if they are good enough to go pro they will, I say play your 4 years and play hard, break records, worry about the pros when that time comes. If you aren't good enough to play in the pros but can light up the scoreboard and break records in college I'm all for it.

I guess in the end I could care less about the "system" they are using. I tune in to see them play. I grew up watching Montana w/ the 49ers and I turned the game on just to see what magic he was going to do, similar to Barry Sanders, Michael Jordan, etc...so I also watched Colt Brennan w/ Hawaii b/c I wanted to see him torch the field.

With the RNS I still have no clue why June Jones pulled Kyle Pardon, I thought he was good. Maybe there was more to the story, but now I see he's gone to Eastern Washington. I know he threw some bad picks but like ya'll are saying the Qb AND the Wrs have to be on the same page, so I figure in the RNS it's not always the Qbs fault. If he "sees" the curl route and the Wr sees the GO route, well that just isn't going to work out.

Anyways, thanks for the good conversation about the RNS. I'm excited to get NCAA 13, traded in NCAA 12 a few weeks back, will be nice to have a football game soon.

EDIT: p.s. Dr. Death I see your avatar, I can't wait to see what Mike Leach does at WSU. I dislike ttu and it was hard when he was there, I like his style, but again being an AGGIE it was hard to cheer for ttu. When he was out of coaching I liked listening to his broadcasting of games on the CBS network, he has a strange sense of humor but it's different and that is nice. Now that he's back to coaching I just hope we get more WSU games televised here so we can see the AIR RAID in action. I also read somewhere that he highered the Pistol guru so it will be interesting to see how he works the Pistol into the Air Raid. Maybe something similar to ok. st.

It will be interesting to see what type of playbook they put in for WSU. I wonder if we'll have to wait for NCAA14 to get the "more complete" version.

steelerfan
05-15-2012, 12:31 AM
A big factor that is often overlooked is that the pro game is played up the middle while the college game is played on the edges. This is a direct result of the location of the hash marks.

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Dr Death
05-16-2012, 12:36 AM
Wow! This thread jumped back to life... reading through some of the recent posts I'll give you some info that will hopefully shed some light on the R&S, the "System QB" label, what a R&S QB has to do, how Bill Walsh actually borrowed from it and some other things... This may take a while, so get comfortable...

First, not trying to argue w/ a fellow Hawaii fan, but the QB in the R&S has a TON of burden on him every single game, every single play. Go listen to Warren Moon, who ran it for 4 seasons in the NFL and hear how he explains it: "I can't be off ever! I cannot have a bad day for us to be successful." The QB in the R&S has plays where his reads can be as high as 16 different routes depending on what the D is doing. There is video of Colt Brennan on You Tube explaining this.

I always hear that this offense is successful for "lower level" schools but here's what people are missing... the big time schools have "systems" in place and a wealth of talent and they stick w/ what works for them. Put June Jones at :Texas: or :USC: and he would probably never lose a game. Another thing to consider... in the early 1990's the NFL had 3 teams use the R&S: The Oilers - Falcons and Lions. All made the playoffs w/ it and all were top ten offenses. Now that's the highest level we have in football and the R&S was successful at that level. In 1995, the Atlanta Falcons became the first team ever to have:

A QB throw for over 4,000 yards {Jeff George}
A RB rush for over 1,000 yards {Craig "Ironhead" Heyward}
3 WR's to have over 1,000 yards receiving {Eric Metcalf, Bert Emanuel, Terrance Mathis}

All of those teams lacked talent in certain areas, particularly defense, yet all made the playoffs.

The "System QB" tag. As has been stated, David Klingler and Andre Ware did more harm to the R&S than anybody alive, because both failed miserably as pro's. Ware even went to a team {Detroit} that was running the R&S, so there's just no excuse for that. But too many people took those two QB's failures and unfairly labeled every QB after that as a product of being in a "system" and not being a quality QB.

To take this even further, consider this: Klingler had set the NCAA record for TD passes in a season w/ 54. He did this in 1990. That year he threw 643 passes and had 20 interceptions. In 2006 when Brennan broke the record by throwing 58 TD passes he only threw 559 and only had 12 interceptions. That's 84 fewer passes. Considering the fact that Brennan averaged a TD pass in less than every 10 attempts - 58 divided by 559 passes - give him another 84 passes and he would have been around 65-70 TD passes had he thrown as many as Klingler did. Brennan also completed 72.6% to Klingler's 58.2%.

In the NCAA, Brennan is currently 4th on the all time TD Passes list for a career. Here is the breakdown of the guys ahead of him and how many more passes they threw than Brennan did:

1 - Case Keenum - 155 TD's - 2,229 attempts {645 more passes than Brennan - 24 more TD's}

2 - Kellen Moore - 142 TD's - 1,658 attempts {74 more passes than Brennan - 11 more TD's}

3 - Graham Harrell - 134 TD's - 2,010 attempts {426 more passes than Brennan - 3 more TD's}

4 - Colt Brennan - 131 TD's - 1,584 attempts

Brennan is also the career leader in completion percentage at 70.4%

And, the year Brennan threw those 58 TD passes he set the QB Rating record of 186.0, which stood until this past season and he also did it playing at :Alabama:, at :Boise_State: as well as games against :Purdue: - :Arizona_State: and :Oregon_State:

Brennan has all the intangibles you could want. He's deadly accurate, led Hawaii to numerous come-from-behind wins - some that seemed nearly impossible and his first year w/ the Redskins he was the highest rated QB in the preseason. Now I get that he was playing against 3rd string players, but he was also playing WITH 3rd string players. He also led 3 come-from-behind wins that preseason. He is currently in the CFL w/ the Saskatchewan Rough-Riders.

The NFL is very slow in adapting to change, particularly when it comes to wide-open offenses. When the R&S was in the league teams that had to defend it absolutely hated it. Rod Woodson, the All-Pro CB for the Steelers was so relieved when Houston finally dropped the R&S that he was saying how he was going to send Bud Adams, the Oilers owner some sort of thank you gift.

Bill Walsh is known for being the West Coast innovator. However, in the America's Game show on the 1981 SF 49ers and their Super Bowl win that year, wide receiver Dwight Clark talks about how Walsh implemented the ability for the WR's to adjust their routes AFTER the snap - prior to that the only offense doing this was Mouse Davis and the R&S - and Clark says that single adjustment changed everything for the 49ers and made their offense almost impossible to defend. They went from 6-10 in 1980, to 13-3 and SB Champs in 1981 and this adjustment, borrowed from the R&S, was a big part of that turn-around.

Today, the NFL is starting to open up to the spread offense and the spread QB's. The year the Patriots went 18-1, a lot of what they did was R&S based. In 1994 when Belichick was coaching the Cleveland Browns he scrimmaged against the June Jones coached Falcons and wanted to learn as much as he could about that offense. Years later, in New England, he applied a lot of the R&S principles to his scheme.

Now we also have guys like Cam Newton, RG III and Brandon Weeden being drafted in the first round, which shows the NFL is slowly adapting to a more spread QB. The Saints run a lot of spread offense and it wouldn't shock me at all if they use some of the R&S ideas in their scheme.

Suffice to say; running this offense, the R&S, takes a lot for the QB. Yes, you can take an average QB and make him better, but you can take a very good QB and make him great provided he's willing to put in the work to get the reads down and he is accurate. And as Warren Moon proved, when you have a great QB in this system, as well as Jim Kelly w/ the Houston Gamblers in the USFL, the offense can be nearly unstoppable.

Much more to come...

Dr Death
05-16-2012, 12:47 AM
the obvious problem with it though, is that it cant really sustain a lead (as evidenced by houston oilers blowing a huge lead over buffalo in 1993).

This is something that I disagree w/ 150%. I have that Oilers/Bills game on DVD and Houston was a force in that game. Moon was 36 of 50 for 371 yards, in the first half they had the ball 4 times, scored on all 4 drives, including two 80 yard drives, and held the ball for over 22 minutes. Once the lead went to 35-3 it was the defense that let up. The Bills also benefited greatly by two major breaks: One, they did a surprise onside kick, which the Oilers weren't prepared for, and the other was a TD the Bills scored where their WR stepped out of bounds and ran about 3 steps out of bounds before coming back in and catching the ball and scoring. The TD should have never been allowed and should have been a penalty, but the ref never saw it.

That kick-started the momentum and as in any game, momentum plays a huge part. Moon also had one pass hit a wide open receiver and it went right through his hands for an interception, setting the Bills up for another short field and resulting TD.

The Oiler offense wasn't to blame that day; their D was. And their special teams. And a missed call by a ref.

baseballplyrmvp
05-16-2012, 01:23 AM
wrong choice of words on my part Dr D. "sustain a lead" should have been "a good end of the game offense." unless you have both an above average o-line and a stud rb, you're not gonna have a strong running presense in this offense. what i meant was that it's not a good offense to milk the clock at the end of the game, as typically the running game is greatest thing in the world. :D

Dr Death
05-16-2012, 01:39 AM
wrong choice of words on my part Dr D. "sustain a lead" should have been "a good end of the game offense." unless you have both an above average o-line and a stud rb, you're not gonna have a strong running presense in this offense. what i meant was that it's not a good offense to milk the clock at the end of the game, as typically the running game is greatest thing in the world. :D

It feels weird to me to be "arguing" w/ another :Hawaii: fan! :D But I'll say this - in the 2006 Insight Bowl when :Minnesota: had a 38-7 lead over :Texas_Tech: and :Texas_Tech: rallied for a 44-41 OT win, it was against a pro style offense that was great at running the ball and controlling the clock. Name me an offense and I can name you times where they "failed to hold a lead." So that's why I am so vehemently in disagreement on that aspect.

I can also name plenty of times when the R&S did hold leads... like when :Hawaii: kicked the crap out of :Arizona_State: in the 2006 Hawaii Bowl... And I'm not really "arguing" w/ you... just pointing out how the O wasn't to blame that day in Buffalo. Any :Hawaii: fan is a friend of mine!!!

steelerfan
05-16-2012, 09:22 AM
I disagree that the Oilers "lacked talent in certain areas, particularly defense." Their defense was very good. In 1992 they were #3 in the league and all 4 years they were in the top half of the league (3, 9, 11, 14 - not in that order).

I also disagree that the Oilers offense takes no blame for the collapse in Buffalo. They were unable to chew the clock and had numerous extremely short drives which kept Buffalo alive (3 and out, 3 incompletions).

I live in Houston and I did in the 90s. It was the same thing over and over with that offense. It could move the ball between the 20s, including running on defenses who were spread out expecting the pass. But, as soon as the field shortened, the running game disappeared. They may have put up great statistics, but they never broke any scoring records.

The debate every year down here was whether they would keep a TE or FB so they could try to pound it in when need be. That's part of the problem with that offense in the NFL. The 53-man roster, and having just 45 active on gameday, doesn't allow you to have luxuries like TEs and FBs who play only 3 snaps a game.

I'm not trying to be argumentative at all. Seriously. I just read all of what you say about the offense and you make it sound like every coach in the world is dumb for not running it. It has it's warts too.

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Dr Death
05-16-2012, 11:10 AM
I disagree that the Oilers "lacked talent in certain areas, particularly defense." Their defense was very good. In 1992 they were #3 in the league and all 4 years they were in the top half of the league (3, 9, 11, 14 - not in that order).

I also disagree that the Oilers offense takes no blame for the collapse in Buffalo. They were unable to chew the clock and had numerous extremely short drives which kept Buffalo alive (3 and out, 3 incompletions).

I live in Houston and I did in the 90s. It was the same thing over and over with that offense. It could move the ball between the 20s, including running on defenses who were spread out expecting the pass. But, as soon as the field shortened, the running game disappeared. They may have put up great statistics, but they never broke any scoring records.

The debate every year down here was whether they would keep a TE or FB so they could try to pound it in when need be. That's part of the problem with that offense in the NFL. The 53-man roster, and having just 45 active on gameday, doesn't allow you to have luxuries like TEs and FBs who play only 3 snaps a game.

I'm not trying to be argumentative at all. Seriously. I just read all of what you say about the offense and you make it sound like every coach in the world is dumb for not running it. It has it's warts too.

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What you have to understand is that the Lions and Falcons had both sucked for years. Neither had been in the playoffs for a long time and they go to the R&S and both make the playoffs. The Oilers were obviously the most talented team of the three, but the fact that two basement dwellers both made the playoffs - the Lions made it all the way to the NFC Championship Game - says a lot.

And while I can't provide you a link to prove the Oilers ability to score in the red-zone, I do have several games on DVD that show they were in the top 10 amongst red-zone scoring teams during that era. But - back to the main argument - that 1992 playoff loss, was on their defense. When an offense was as efficient as theirs was - Moon was 19 of 22 in the first half w/ 4 TD's and they controlled the clock for over 22 minutes and their defense just started to coast... one TD, followed by a surprise onside kick which led to another TD, followed by an illegal TD... suddenly 35-3 became 35-24... and that's where the momentum changed heavily.

Every offense has its good and bad. But no offense has been has heavily criticized as the R&S and for all the wrong reasons. If people listened to those who defended it - or tried to - it was a nightmare, and I feel it has been given an unfair label. The numbers - stats and Wins vs Losses - speak for their selves - and yet people still have this bias against it.

steelerfan
05-16-2012, 12:18 PM
I'm not saying the Oilers' defense wasn't responsible. I'm saying the offense (or, arguably, the playcalling) shares that blame. Three-and-out, with 3 incompletions takes less than :30 off the clock. If they had run the ball three times, they'd have burned 2:30.

Yes, the Lions had some moderate success. They also had, arguably, the most prolific back in the history of the game. And, when they reached the NFC Championship, they lost 41-10.

The Falcons were never a huge threat, on a league-wide scale, in those days, imo.

If anything, I think that the fact that only bad teams that have severe talent deficiencies have typically employed the Run & Shoot speaks for itself.

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Dr Death
05-16-2012, 02:43 PM
I'm not saying the Oilers' defense wasn't responsible. I'm saying the offense (or, arguably, the playcalling) shares that blame. Three-and-out, with 3 incompletions takes less than :30 off the clock. If they had run the ball three times, they'd have burned 2:30.

Yes, the Lions had some moderate success. They also had, arguably, the most prolific back in the history of the game. And, when they reached the NFC Championship, they lost 41-10.

The Falcons were never a huge threat, on a league-wide scale, in those days, imo.

If anything, I think that the fact that only bad teams that have severe talent deficiencies have typically employed the Run & Shoot speaks for itself.

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Well Moon was 36 0f 50, so he didn't have too many 3 & outs... I can re-watch the game tonight and count how many he had, if any. And Lorenzo White had 75 yards on 19 carries, almost 4.0 per... so it wasn't like they had no ground game. I'll go back and watch it and report back to you.


I disagree that the Oilers "lacked talent in certain areas, particularly defense." Their defense was very good. In 1992 they were #3 in the league and all 4 years they were in the top half of the league (3, 9, 11, 14 - not in that order).

I also disagree that the Oilers offense takes no blame for the collapse in Buffalo. They were unable to chew the clock and had numerous extremely short drives which kept Buffalo alive (3 and out, 3 incompletions).


Now that quote above you say the Oilers didn't lack talent yet you say that only teams that had/have severe talent deficiencies use the R&S! So, here I am just a little confused. FWIW, I have a ton of the 1990-93 Oiler games on VHS and/or DVD, so I do have a good grasp of what I am talking about and not just going from memory of 20+ years ago. I can pop in any game and watch it.

I'll let you know on the 1992 Bills playoff game how many 3 & outs they had. I know they also had one missed FG when the holder dropped the snap... yet people want to blame the offense. If Montgomery - their punter - gets that snap down, they probably get 3 points and win the game.

EDIT: From some quick research I see they had one 3 & out in the game. ONE!

steelerfan
05-16-2012, 03:29 PM
I said "typically". I agree that the Oilers were talented. But your argument that the Lions and Falcons achieved success (along with Hawaii, SMU, UH etc.) supports exactly what you are refuting: that the Run & Shoot, for the most part, is a gimmick offense used by teams with talent deficiencies to try and compete with more talented teams. And I'm not saying that I fully support that argument. I'm just saying that parts of what you say support it.

Also, if Moon was 36-50, that means he was 17-28 in the second half. Throwing 28 times with that kind of lead is insane. That is extending the game and asking for trouble. Regardless of the 3 and outs, which wasn't the gist of my point, their unwillingness to run more in the second half is what gave Buffalo a chance to have such a comeback.

How many teams won a championship with the Run & Shoot?

Oilers - 0
Lions - 0
Falcons - 0
U of H - 0
Hawaii - 0
SMU - 0
Gamblers - 0
etc. - 0

If it was the great offense that is purported, everyone would try it. Hell, Kevin Gilbride (who just won a Super Bowl) gave it up after Pardee wasn't looking over his shoulder.

While I know it has had it's moderate successes, and is fun to watch, I can't buy that it is the best thing since sliced bread.

I also write off the "elements of it are in so-and-so's offense" arguments too. That same argument can be made for virtually any system. (not that you made that argument, but I've heard it before).

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you and I think. I will continue to believe that it is marginal, and you will idolize it. No big deal.

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steelerfan
05-16-2012, 06:06 PM
Differences of opinion aside, let's try and get this thread back on topic. I'm waiting for the "Definitive Guide". :)

Like I said early on, I'd love to know more about the offense, but so far all we have is a generic list of what we need to use this offense effectively (a list that could be plugged in for most offenses).

I don't mean that in a shitty way either. I know you know alot about the Run & Shoot, and I'd like to have you break things down for us. I'm sure we could all stand to learn something and many of the core elements are applicable to several other systems.

:)

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Dr Death
05-17-2012, 12:04 AM
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you and I think. I will continue to believe that it is marginal, and you will idolize it. No big deal.


It's not that I idolize it, I just remember before this offense if you were a WR and your route was a 12 yard hook route, and the D was playing Cover-3, you were not going to get the ball because your route was running right into the strength of what the D was doing on that play... This offense changed all that. Cover-3? Okay, now I'll run this and be open. To me - it was and still is brilliant - in that it allows for your team to adjust on the fly. Football is game of adjustments and in this offense those adjustments happen every play just after the snap of the ball.



Differences of opinion aside, let's try and get this thread back on topic. I'm waiting for the "Definitive Guide". :)

Like I said early on, I'd love to know more about the offense, but so far all we have is a generic list of what we need to use this offense effectively (a list that could be plugged in for most offenses).

I don't mean that in a shitty way either. I know you know alot about the Run & Shoot, and I'd like to have you break things down for us. I'm sure we could all stand to learn something and many of the core elements are applicable to several other systems.

:)

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As far as the Definitive Guide, if memory serves I wanted to write it for those who use it in the game. What I could do is go through the offense and explain all the details, then once the game comes out go back and explain to people the aspects that are actually in the game. I am hoping for more this season. I know that since they bragged about having the R&S in the game, there are really only a few true R&S plays in the game.

JerzeyReign
05-17-2012, 06:03 AM
As a 'Power I' coach, I have to admit, I love reading Dr. Death's posts on the R&S. I learn something new every time.

classic
05-17-2012, 12:05 PM
i def want to run the shoot in both ncaa and madden this year...i have been a compression set guy but on ncaa there isnt many playbooks like houston and washington books from madden ...so i want to change things up a bit i will def stay tune to this thread as ncaa approaches to get my knowledge of the offense up to par

JeffHCross
05-19-2012, 03:57 PM
The R&S won't work in-game until the spread rushing is consistent and reliable. Otherwise you're essentially restricted to only passing -- ever, which is counter to the philosophies of the Run & Shoot.

Little Steve
05-19-2012, 04:57 PM
I ran this a little bit, i used a custom play book for georiga tech. you can change the close wr to block and he will run back to block, but you can run infront of him, and pich the ball back to him. Its a pass, run, pitch option thing. i could't find one in the game, so i made one. It works most of the time vs qb spy, 34,43 and dime. but it dies vs anything else.You can try what I said but it doesn't work well with sliders just pure heisman or ALL A, ect...



You guys need to read the DF more, throw were their blizting from more. Use Lob passes, and try to avoid geting behind center if the guy blizting alot.

One thing i did notice about the spread run is why do the blockers let go when the hb is even with them, it kills the play, no what im talking about?

baseballplyrmvp
05-19-2012, 05:06 PM
I ran this a little bit, i used a custom play book for georiga tech. you can change the close wr to block and he will run back to block, but you can run infront of him, and pich the ball back to him. Its a pass, run, pitch option thing. i could't find one in the game, so i made one. It works most of the time vs qb spy, 34,43 and dime. but it dies vs anything else.

You guys need to read the DF more, throw were their blizting from more. Use Lob passes, and try to avoid geting behind center if the guy blizting alot. You can try what I said but it doesn't work well with sliders just pure heisman or ALL A, ect...:smh:

its called knowing who to throw to on any given play. the "tips" you listed are some of the most generic tips one can give someone else for passing. they apply to every passing game; and are not just for the run & shoot.

baseballplyrmvp
05-19-2012, 05:08 PM
The R&S won't work in-game until the spread rushing is consistent and reliable. Otherwise you're essentially restricted to only passing -- ever, which is counter to the philosophies of the Run & Shoot.agreed. until a true numbers advantage works in the game and run/pass blocking results are more predictable, the run aspect of the run & shoot wont be as successful as it will in real life.

Little Steve
05-19-2012, 05:45 PM
:smh:

its called knowing who to throw to on any given play. the "tips" you listed are some of the most generic tips one can give someone else for passing. they apply to every passing game; and are not just for the run & shoot.

The part you highlighted was talking about what i said in the paragraph above:smh:

I will fix it for you: Their, and yes there the basic tips, if you don't do the basic well. How do you stand a chance on the hard stuff.
And they matter more to the r&s to any other one, get the ball out of your hands fast if you look at blizting or where thier falling back you can throw it into the gap faster and tear them apart. You want them on there heels and THEN use draws.

Your a H fan, you probley know it better in real life but this is how it works well in the game from my experience

baseballplyrmvp
05-19-2012, 07:33 PM
in this site's 360 od, i've been with :SMU: for 2 1/2 seasons, and assuming my qb doesnt get injured, he'll finish with another 5500+ yard season. if my numbers for this season stay on pace, i'll have thrown for about 17,000 yards in 3 seasons with the run & shoot. i know how to run the run & shoot in the game, and the tips you listed dont even begin to help people properly run the run & shoot in the game. they may work for a beginner, but for the experienced vets on this site, everyone at least knows the basics. also, you said that you only ran the run & shoot a little bit. i run it exclusively. not trying to be an ass here, but i have the experience running it and you dont, so its fair to say that i have a better idea of how it works in the game than what you do.

as i said above, you have to know who to throw to on every play. this is based entirely on your progression reads of the defense. you can call the same play 3 times in a row, get 3 completely different defensive looks, and the order of your progression reads will be different every time. you dont have to use lob passes, you dont have to use bullet passes, you dont have to throw where they're blitzing from. the thing that's gonna make it or break it when running the r&s is identifying what the defense is doing early, and knowing which route will open against it.

JeffHCross
05-19-2012, 07:52 PM
Plus, all you said is "have a pass play and hot route a WR to block", basically. That's no more Run & Shoot than any other pass play with a run option.

baseballplyrmvp
05-19-2012, 08:59 PM
Dr. D,

i need some reading material for something to do in my spare time. do you know of any place (besides smart football) or have any links/pdfs that'll breakdown various r&s plays against the typical 5 base coverages the r&s looks for?

Dr Death
05-19-2012, 10:11 PM
Dr. D,

i need some reading material for something to do in my spare time. do you know of any place (besides smart football) or have any links/pdfs that'll breakdown various r&s plays against the typical 5 base coverages the r&s looks for?

PM your e-mail and I'll send you some .pdf files of the R&S as run by Mouse Davis in the early 1990's. Granted, June Jones has made some changes to it, like blocking for the O-line and putting the QB in Shot-Gun almost exclusively, but it's still the same basic principles of the offense. The Hawaii playbook I have is in a notebook and I don't have a scanner to put it on my computer and then send it as a .pdf, but I think the Mouse Davis one will make you happy.

JeffHCross
05-19-2012, 11:21 PM
Blood Sweat & Chalk was a good read, and I do believe it discussed the R&S.

Dr Death
05-20-2012, 12:25 AM
The R&S won't work in-game until the spread rushing is consistent and reliable. Otherwise you're essentially restricted to only passing -- ever, which is counter to the philosophies of the Run & Shoot.

This is both right and wrong. Whilst Jones runs the R&S primarily in Shot-Gun now and trying to run draws, etc. out of the Gun in the game are pretty useless, you can go 4-wide, under center and use HB Dive and have great success running the ball. I never call it as a play, I use it as an audible, but have never averaged less than 5.5 per carry when doing this over the course of a season. There are also plays such as HB Slam and I think HB Counter that work as well.

Of course, the last several years I have been in 5-wide more often than not, but I do know that the above mentioned plays will allow you to run successfully and even better when you use it as an audible. And running plays in the R&S are almost always called as audibles. I know in 1994-95 on the Falcons, every play they called in the huddle was a pass play, they only ran after seeing the defense at the line and calling an audible.

JeffHCross
05-20-2012, 08:58 AM
This is both right and wrong. Whilst Jones runs the R&S primarily in Shot-Gun now and trying to run draws, etc. out of the Gun in the game are pretty useless, you can go 4-wide, under center and use HB Dive and have great success running the ball.Well, yes. I was going to mention that, but I have a massive problem with the Ace formations in the R&S books in the game. One of the formations (it's been long enough that I can't remember if its the 2x2 or the 3x1) is solely Air Raid plays, the other is solely R&S plays. So you can't really run an R&S from under center in the game, unless you want to limit yourself to just one formation. Yes, there is a healthy amount of Air Raid concepts used in the R&S (or maybe I have it swapped, actually), but it's certainly not segmented out like it is in the game.

When I run my offenses, my entire goal is that my opponent can't tell what's coming next by my formation. The under center options in the R&S in-game don't give that potential at all.

And even if they were full of genuine R&S, you're still talking about 2 formations versus significantly more in the Gun. So until that Gun running works, it's difficult (at best) to really run the R&S in-game.

Little Steve
05-20-2012, 08:58 AM
:smh:No, I was telling you what you can do with the r&s thats different. I wasn't telling you how to run it, i was telling you something new you can do with it. I created and option offence with in the r&s, i set my routs up so i can use pich backs. I set plays up with triple threats, im not telling you how to run it. Im telling you something you can do with it that is extremly difficult to defend. Ur running the basic kind, im saying combine your passing and your running by seting your self up to pich the ball. Use routs to set up pich backs, role out with your qb and have wr behind you to pich it back to, I wish i could upload a vid to show you.

baseballplyrmvp
05-20-2012, 12:08 PM
:smh:No, I was telling you what you can do with the r&s thats different. its a stupid setup, imo. you're losing a valuable receiving target on a passing play in order to use him as the pitch man if you decide to take off running. if i was running an offense that had a lot of option plays built into it, i'd maybe consider doing this, but out of a purely pass based, "modern" type of run & shoot, its pointless.

whether you realize this or not, but in the r&s, a lot of the routes are combination based designed to attack certain defenders, forcing them to decide who to cover, in which the qb throws to the other target. by bringing that wr in to block, you're losing a part of that combination route, and not forcing the defense to choose who to cover anymore, thereby giving them better coverage. chances are, if you do this on a play, there's a higher probability that you'll take off running anyways. you wont sit in the pocket as long as what you would normally.


Im telling you something you can do with it that is extremly difficult to defend. you said it works mostly well against 50% of the defenses, but fails miserably against anything else. thats not extremely difficult to defend, imo. not to mention, that if you're in a 4 wide, or 3wr/1 SB formations why would the defense be in a 43 or 34 defense in the first place? so then again, you're saying this setup only works against dime and qb spy plays. depending on personel, a lot of people prefer the nickel packages over pure dime formations anyways, so your case for doing this setup isnt something thats going to give people an instant advantage. personally, i'd rather have 4 wr's running around downfield, than having 3 with a 4th as a possible pitch option.


Ur running the basic kind, im saying combine your passing and your running by seting your self up to pich the ball. Use routs to set up pich backs, role out with your qb and have wr behind you to pich it back to, I wish i could upload a vid to show you.the basic kind? of the run & shoot? :smh: there's no basic kind....there's no complex version of it. i'm running the modern version of it out of the gun/deep pistol, whereas i'm guessing you're running it from out of the single and double wing formations, which would be the more traditional version from the 80's and 90's.

baseballplyrmvp
05-20-2012, 12:25 PM
PM your e-mail and I'll send you some .pdf files of the R&S as run by Mouse Davis in the early 1990's. Granted, June Jones has made some changes to it, like blocking for the O-line and putting the QB in Shot-Gun almost exclusively, but it's still the same basic principles of the offense. The Hawaii playbook I have is in a notebook and I don't have a scanner to put it on my computer and then send it as a .pdf, but I think the Mouse Davis one will make you happy.THANK YOU SO MUCH for this. wow! this is gonna help tremendously.

Dr Death
05-20-2012, 01:15 PM
Well, yes. I was going to mention that, but I have a massive problem with the Ace formations in the R&S books in the game. One of the formations (it's been long enough that I can't remember if its the 2x2 or the 3x1) is solely Air Raid plays, the other is solely R&S plays. So you can't really run an R&S from under center in the game, unless you want to limit yourself to just one formation. Yes, there is a healthy amount of Air Raid concepts used in the R&S (or maybe I have it swapped, actually), but it's certainly not segmented out like it is in the game.

When I run my offenses, my entire goal is that my opponent can't tell what's coming next by my formation. The under center options in the R&S in-game don't give that potential at all.

And even if they were full of genuine R&S, you're still talking about 2 formations versus significantly more in the Gun. So until that Gun running works, it's difficult (at best) to really run the R&S in-game.

Yes Jeff, I feel your pain. A couple years ago when they announced they had the R&S in the game, I was so excited. Then they ran their little video talking about the new offenses - R&S - Air Raid - and they said: "The R&S is for those who like to throw the ball 50-60 times a game."

Seriously??? If this is what EA thinks of the R&S then where does one begin to explain the offense to them??? And this is why I spent so long trying to get w/ them to help them out, because this offense is quite intricate, takes a lot of time to get down, takes someone who can read a defense just like reading a book and has way more than the 4 plays that they have of it in the game.

Most of the so-called R&S plays in the game aren't even R&S plays - they're plays that have been in the game {EA Games} for years.

Another massive failure on EA's part is when the R&S is under center, they always have the QB drop straight back. This is wrong. As most know, the QB always had a half roll to the right or left when under center, but EA doesn't have that in the game either. Which is very frustrating. They claim - this year - that they are trying to "teach" proper drops for QB's but they have so-called offenses in the game that are grossly misrepresented. This is not teaching - it is misleading.

Now as far as what offense has parts of what other offense in it... the basic chronology is like this:

R&S - This actually started life in the late 50's/early 60's, but it wasn't until Mouse Davis began using it in the mid-70's that it took shape and became what we know of it now. Since then, June Jones has made subtle changes to it including adding elements of the West Coast Offense to it

West Coast Offense - Bill Walsh began tinkering w/ the idea for this offense when he was in Cincinnati {Bengals} in the early-mid 70's. Once he arrived in San Francisco he added "Option Routes" that were/are prevalent in the R&S

Air Raid - This offense is a combination of three offenses: The Offense that BYU ran in the 80's - the West Coast - The R&S. One major difference in the Air Raid are the wide O-line splits, another thing EA doesn't put in the game. The wide line splits help in two areas: One, they force the DE's {defensive ends} out further from the QB, thus making it harder - and longer - for them to get to the QB, it also opens up running and passing lanes. And, if the D tries to blitz through the wider gaps, it makes for quick, easy completions over the middle of the field.

As far as formations, the R&S has two. Either 2 X 2 or 3 X 1 - which would be Trips to one side or the other. Where EA needs work is on the running game in Shot-Gun and they also need to implement a proper Shovel Pass; a staple in the R&S as well as the Air Raid.

Dr Death
05-20-2012, 04:53 PM
I also disagree that the Oilers offense takes no blame for the collapse in Buffalo. They were unable to chew the clock and had numerous extremely short drives which kept Buffalo alive (3 and out, 3 incompletions).


UPDATE: As promised Steelerfan, I popped in the game today between Buffalo and Houston in the 1992 playoffs and here is what happened in the 3rd quarter:

The Bills received the opening kickoff and Reich had a pass go through his TE's hands and was intercepted by Bubba McDowell and returned 58 yards for a TD. Score is now 35-3. On the ensuing kickoff the Oilers tried a squib kick, something they had done w/ success in the first half, but this time the Bills were ready for it, recovering it at midfield. They then went 50 yards and scored a TD, converting one 4th and 2, making the score now 10-35.

The Bills lined up for the kickoff and the announcers {Charlie Jones and Todd Christensen} were amazed that the Oilers were NOT lined up for an onside kick. The Bills did onside kick and recovered at their own 48. Then Reich hit Don Beebe on a 9 yard pass that was low. Beebe went down for the pass and lifted his hands up to show he caught it, however, when doing this he then fumbled the ball which was recovered by CB Steve Jackson. However, the officials ruled Beebe was down, even though it was very clear he was NOT touched down and Christensen made a big point of this. The Oilers should have had the ball at their 45, still up 35-10.

A few plays later Reich hits Beebe on a 38 yard TD pass but again, this should not have been allowed. Beebe had 2, and possibly 3, feet out of bounds. You see his right foot on the line, out of bounds, then his left foot, then his right foot is hard to tell if his heel is out or not, but clearly two feet were out of bounds, which should have resulted in a 5 yard penalty and loss of down. However this was not called either. Score now 17-35.

With 7:20 to play in the 3rd quarter the Oilers finally went on offense. Moon hit a 3 yard pass, then White ran for 0 yards, then on 3rd and 7 Moon threw a perfect out pass but Bills safety Jeff Kelso made a great play, getting a finger tip on the ball and deflecting it into the receivers chest, forcing a drop. Then Montgomery punted the ball a whopping 25 yards, giving Buffalo possession at their own 41. The Bills then went down and scored again, this time Reich hitting Reed when the Oiler defender was in a zone but got caught looking in the backfield, allowing Reed to get behind him.

Score is now 24-35.

On the ensuing Oiler drive Moon completes a pass but an illegal motion penalty negates that, putting them in a 1st and 15. Moon then throws a pass that goes off the receivers hand and is intercepted, the Bills return that to the 23. They then score again, converting a 4th and 5 from the 18 and Reich hits Reed on an 18 yard TD. Score is now 31-35. Bills have converted two 4th downs and the Oilers have run all of 4 plays on offense. The Bills scoring drives were 50, 52, 59 and 23 yards. Only one of those drives could be blamed on the Oilers offense.

What this proves is this: Your claim that they had numerous short drives, and 3 & outs w/ 3 incompletions is wrong. They were up 35-3 and ran 4 total plays and the score went to 35-31.

From that point on Moon was 16 of 25, including leading a last minute drive that resulted in a game-tying FG that sent the game into OT.

JeffHCross
05-20-2012, 05:04 PM
Well, you give the opposing offense the opportunity at 4 TDs while only running 4 offensive plays, I don't care how good your defense is, they're going to get gassed.

And I definitely need to watch that game again. I don't remember any of that.

Dr Death
05-20-2012, 05:08 PM
Well, you give the opposing offense the opportunity at 4 TDs while only running 4 offensive plays, I don't care how good your defense is, they're going to get gassed.

And I definitely need to watch that game again. I don't remember any of that.

Yes, but the Oiler offense wasn't to blame. The Bills had the ball and threw a pick, then they recovered a botched squib kick at midfield, then they recovered an onside kick. The Oiler offense didn't take the field until 7:20 left in the 3rd period and the score was 35-17 and Buffalo was gaining momentum. Of course two missed calls by the refs didn't help either. If you have the game, I urge you to watch it, you'll see what I mean.

JeffHCross
05-20-2012, 05:19 PM
I have two copies of the game, actually :D Both the NFL network's recent Greatest Games broadcast, and the DVD.

I know it's not the offense's fault, I was mostly saying that the defense didn't really have a chance in hell either. The only thing that would have stopped the Bills, given that many chances in a row, was the Bills themselves.

Dr Death
05-20-2012, 05:40 PM
I have two copies of the game, actually :D Both the NFL network's recent Greatest Games broadcast, and the DVD.

I know it's not the offense's fault, I was mostly saying that the defense didn't really have a chance in hell either. The only thing that would have stopped the Bills, given that many chances in a row, was the Bills themselves.

Watching the 4th quarter now, the Oilers started a drive at their own 10 and drove down to the Bills 16... then Montgomery drops the snap for the FG, resulting in 0 points. Once again, the ST's fails them miserably. Montgomery also had 2 punts for 25 yards each, giving Buffalo great field position. Sheesh... it's a wonder they didn't make him walk back to Houston after the game! :D

steelerfan
05-20-2012, 07:25 PM
I hear what you're saying, Dr. Death. I never said, however, that the offense deserves all, or even most, of the blame. I simply stated that they were not without blame. 4 plays (3 passing), 3 yards, and an interception in the entire 3rd quarter supports that. When the defense and special teams were failing them, the offense could have stemmed the tide by getting a couple of first downs. They didn't. To me, that makes them responsible as well.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2

Little Steve
05-20-2012, 08:04 PM
you said it works mostly well against 50% of the defenses, but fails miserably against anything else. thats not extremely difficult to defend, imo. not to mention, that if you're in a 4 wide, or 3wr/1 SB formations why would the defense be in a 43 or 34 defense in the first place? so then again, you're saying this setup only works against dime and qb spy plays. depending on personel, a lot of people prefer the nickel packages over pure dime formations anyways, so your case for doing this setup isnt something thats going to give people an instant advantage. personally, i'd rather have 4 wr's running around downfield, than having 3 with a 4th as a possible pitch option.

.

I use 2-3 TE on this play, so they never come out in a nickle, ect...
I use it as a powerplay, Kinda like the "bulldog formation or whatever its called now, they changed its name in the patch". Its hard to explain, if i can ever upload a video in 13 i show it to you

.It doesn't matter just have fun with the pure.

But its great to combine slow guys with fast guys for the r&s (TE). slow guys stay in the gaps longer.

JeffHCross
05-20-2012, 08:10 PM
r&s (TE)I can already tell you that Dr. Death will respond by pointing out that June Jones (and maybe most R&S coaches, I'm not sure) never use TEs.

But, since EA has seen fit to include TE formations in the R&S playbooks, I can't really blame you for it.

baseballplyrmvp
05-20-2012, 08:17 PM
his whole setup for that play isnt even remotely related to the run and shoot in the first place, since he's using 2-3 te's. :fp: what was the point of even mentioning it then?

Dr Death
05-20-2012, 08:34 PM
I hear what you're saying, Dr. Death. I never said, however, that the offense deserves all, or even most, of the blame. I simply stated that they were not without blame. 4 plays (3 passing), 3 yards, and an interception in the entire 3rd quarter supports that. When the defense and special teams were failing them, the offense could have stemmed the tide by getting a couple of first downs. They didn't. To me, that makes them responsible as well.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2

And that's fair to say, however, you name me any offense and I can point to times when they had the exact same thing happen to them. Yet nobody blames the offense, only when it's the R&S. For example... the 2006 Insight Bowl. :Minnesota: 38 - :Texas_Tech: 7 w/ just over 7 1/2 minutes to play in the 3rd quarter. Yet :Texas_Tech: rallies for a 38-38 tie and then wins in OT 44-41, another game I have... yet nobody blamed the pro style offense that :Minnesota: was running for failing, multiple times, to get first downs.

That's my point. When a team blows a big lead everyone wants to blame the defense. Unless it's the R&S.

Also, to clarify some things: Kevin Gilbride didn't junk the offense after leaving Houston. In fact, he used it quite a lot in Jacksonville when they were an expansion team and their second year in the league they went to the AFC Championship using it. He did employ a TE more as Pete Mitchell caught 41 and 52 passes respectively, but they were still using the R&S scheme. Ernest Givens even joined them for their inaugural season.

And here are some great quotes by some big time football people talking about the R&S offense:

"He doesn't need a whole lot of hole, and that stretched-out offense can create holes." - Bill Belichick - discussing the running game

"When the league switches totally to the run-and-shoot, I'm gone. Retiring. I can't tell you what a nightmare it is." - Howie Long

"I don't think anybody stops it. They always make their yardage. What you hope to do is keep the scoring down the best you can to give yourself a chance to be successful." - Marty Schottenheimer

"I asked this guy, this NFL scout, 'How do you stop this thing?' He told me, 'You don't." - Bruce Keidan

"It's not a coincidence we've been in this offense for seven years and we've been to the playoffs seven years. To me, somebody has to strike the correlation there and recognize it has to be a contributing factor, no matter how grudgingly people want to admit that." - Kevin Gilbride

"The way they throw, I think they can hold up. I know from a defensive standpoint, the run-and-shoot gives me nightmares." - Rusty Tillman

"The run-and-shoot got the Oilers where they are. I think defenses all over the league are going to be very relieved." - Rod Woodson - After Bud Adams said the Oilers were no longer going to be using the R&S

"I've seen them beat everyone on their schedule. Look at the numbers they've posted. They've won more games than a lot of conventional offenses. I just don't see how you can change something that works." - Derrick Thomas - Again, after Adams made the decision to go away from the R&S

"The biggest misconception about the run- and-shoot is that it's a totally passing offense. It's really not. It's a one-back, spread offense, but it's not a passing offense completely." - Bill Parcells

"As a matter of fact, we use some of the exact routes from the run-and-shoot scheme in our offense. And just about everybody does. That's just the truth." - Chan Gailey

"I always used to think the Run-and-Shoot was one of the toughest offenses to stop." - Jim Johnson

"Now I look around, and the Patriots and the Colts and people like that are running what we ran and saying, 'That's how you play the game.' Knowing I was a part of that with Jerry and Mouse (Davis) gives me a lot of satisfaction. Now everybody in the National Football League does what we do now. It just so happens that New England does it every play." - June Jones in 2008

"Sometimes, we'll do some run-and-shoot. We'll sit back with one back and four wide receivers and do that. I remember the run-and-shoot in Atlanta. We always had a 1,000-yard rusher every year. We had a 1,000-yard rusher because we spread the field." - Robbie Tobeck

Little Steve
05-20-2012, 08:34 PM
:fp:lol, didn't know. O well i love running it, look forward to running it in 13. AND this time i don't have to stop to throw that 50% is now 90%!

Dr Death
05-20-2012, 08:39 PM
I can already tell you that Dr. Death will respond by pointing out that June Jones (and maybe most R&S coaches, I'm not sure) never use TEs.

But, since EA has seen fit to include TE formations in the R&S playbooks, I can't really blame you for it.

I can't say that June Jones NEVER use{s} or use{d} a TE, because I have a 1994 game between the Falcons and Raiders, and he uses a TE quite a lot in that game. Mostly running plays, but if memory serves the TE actually catches a pass or two. But overall, no, most R&S teams don't even have a TE on the roster.

And they never use 2 or 3 on a play.

JeffHCross
05-20-2012, 08:43 PM
And here are some great quotes by some big time football people talking about the R&S offense:Bold ... overload. Lol!


I can't say that June Jones NEVER use{s} or use{d} a TE, because I have a 1994 game between the Falcons and Raiders, and he uses a TE quite a lot in that game. Mostly running plays, but if memory serves the TE actually catches a pass or two. But overall, no, most R&S teams don't even have a TE on the roster.Maybe it was somebody else that essentially said that the TE doesn't exist in a Run & Shoot offense. Or maybe it was June but he'd forgotten about 1994 :)

Dr Death
05-20-2012, 10:27 PM
Bold ... overload. Lol!

The is NO such thing as Bold Overload!!! :D


Maybe it was somebody else that essentially said that the TE doesn't exist in a Run & Shoot offense. Or maybe it was June but he'd forgotten about 1994 :)

No, I'm pretty sure you remember it right and it was Jones who said that. I have a bunch of their 1994/95 games and that Raider game is the only one where they used a TE. Looking up their stats from 1994 I see their TE - Mitch Lyons - caught 7 passes. 3 against the Rams and 4 against the Raiders. Obviously I don't have the Ram game. But here's the odd thing... in the Raider game they lose 17-30 and they win the Ram game 8-5. Yes... 8-5!!! So 25 total points in two games where they used a TE. Hmmm...

What makes the Raider game even more confusing is this: The Raiders always played Man>Man defense, thus, making the R&S easier to run because you always knew what the D would be in. To illustrate this point the Lions played the Raiders in 1990 and lost 31-38. Obviously the Raiders didn't shut them down, they simply outscored them. The Lions had Rodney Peete at QB. But Barry Sanders ran for 176 yards on just 25 carries. Why? Because the Lions would audible to a run when they saw 5 or less in the box, all their WR's would run Go Routes, forcing the Man>Man DB's to turn their backs to the line and Sanders could run wild.

Then, in 1991, the Raiders opened in Houston and the Oilers did the same thing, beating the Raiders 47-17 and running for 219 yards and 3 TD's on 36 carries whilst throwing for 268 and 2 TD's.

So why Jones would change things up when the Raiders had proven they could not stop the R&S is beyond me. That day Jeff George only threw 29 passes too. Which is way below what a R&S team usually throws in a game.

I've no idea why Jones would do that, but in at least two games he did use a TE. It didn't help them at all though! :D

irishfbfan1
06-13-2012, 04:13 PM
I think just like with any offensive style whether it be pro style, Spread , West Coast, Air Raid etc...coaches from whichever classification always have their way of calling plays and formations in these systems, they have their way of teaching their system, they have their way of scheming or syncrinizing their concepts. In other words they all have that special touch, play, teaching technique that seperates them from the other coaches within this specific system. Mouse Davis, (who happens to be one of my favorite coaches on the planet) hated the shotgun. He felt that it screwed up the timing with specific routes and plays, most notably "Choice" which requires perfect timing between the QB and WR who not only has specific rules that he must carry out step by step with this concept, but must also decide what to route he must convert to while reading the coverage. NO wonder the RUN and Shoot had 5-7 concepts! Mouse was strickly undercenter all the way and he got alot of the ideas concerning timing and being undercenter from the late great Bill Walsh.

June Jones on the other hand liked being in the shotgun. Remember I talked about everybody putting their signature touches on a specific system, June did so not only with the shotgun, b ut also cutting down on all the route conversions made popular not only by Mouse but a number of other Run and Shooters. He also added more concepts and added a host of various screen passes which took the place of alot of the run game.
"LEVELS", Peyton Manning's favorite play in the whole wide world, and the "GEORGIA CONCEPT" were added to his system to give his version of the Run and Shoot. As for the TE'S I am really not sure why he did what he did but it could have been that these guys might act as a threat for the pass game like a WR and still give him a little better blocker for an already proven run game, I dunno, and again maybe he was looking at trying something new to add to his system.

These subtle and sometimes effective and sometimes not signature touches are not only found in the Run and Shoot systems and all the coaches within but can be found with other systems as well. One popular system in which even you and I right now could begin adding our own touches and trying new things out is the SPREAD OFFENSE. I was driving today and started thinking just how adaptable this system really is especially on the High School Level. Of course the same scenario for the College game but at least you have the oppurtunity to recruit to fit your needs. But with the SPREAD adapting seems to be reasonable. Plays and formations can basically stay the same but the running game in each Spread offense is truly the difference maker for many teams. An example of an Option based Spread Run game can be found at The University Of Oregon with Chip Kellys high powered Zone based scheme and a variety of options off of. Notre Dame, with Brian Kelly's version has not had the oppurtunity to be what Coach wants it to be because of the QB situation. The Irish run more Pro Style run plays from the Gun with a heavy emphasis of multiple TE's who are very athletic and can aid with run blocking. So many coaches have had their signatures, or touches on different aspects of the Spread, this in return has given us an offensive philosophy that can meet the needs of any school at either level without doing an all-out change of systems from year to year. You got a kid that has a strong arm and accurate but is slower than hell, stay with your Spread and run more of maybe an Air Raid or what someguys are doing is more of a Pro Style Spread kinda like what the New England Patriots are doing. On the other hand, same team but have a QB with nice speed but not really an effective passer, stay with your Spread and concentrate more on a Run oriented Spread system. All the plays and formations stay the same. You can see why so many Coaches are heading this direction. You guys would not believe the number of High School Coaches in the COUNTRY that are running some form of NO HUDDLE SPREAD!!! And they are running the same plays as the Colleges. College Coaches are loving this and you can see why!

So many more examples of many coaches putting their own touch or signature if you will, on every system being used at all levels. One other quick example because it is an interesting one that may even intrest some of you. I live in West Virginia about 15-20 minutes from the capitol. We have The University of Charleston an NAIA school who runs Navy's offense. Their touch, contribution, signature to the system is that they run Navy's whole offense from the Shotgun. They do some interesting things which include the MIDLINE which is one of their bread and Butter plays as it is to the Midshipman, as well as the Veer. Pretty interesting.

Just some final thoughts on the TE'S. I have to say I was concerned 5-6 years ago that with the Spread offense that the TE and FB would come extinct. The FB position pretty much has with the exception of a handful of teams. Even the Pro Style guys are going to more oneback sets. The TE is a different story with several going into the NFL draft ranking high because of height, speed, the ability to not only be a receiver but a blocker too. Guys like the TE'S these days are not that of the past, they may or may not be bigger but they are just as strong, much faster, and many of them are the best Athletes on the field. The TE for many teams have replaced the FB acting and carrying out assignments that would classify him as an "H BACK". Dallas and San Diego just to name a few have even aligned the TE in the Backfield with their Shotgun 2 RB Sets.
Take a look at Aaron Hernandez of the Patriots who are a Pro Style Spread Team, this is the kind of athlete coaches die for at the TE position. Many of the Spread teams are utilizing even dual TE's to help with what one would call more of a Pro Style Shotgun offense which includes a Pro Style running attack from the gun.

All in all it is about what we contribute to the system we are utilizing, our signature, and maybe, just maybe June Jones was in fact trying to write another chapter in the Run and Shoot System, and that chapter might have been titled something like this, "UTILIZING THE TIGHT ENDS IN THE RUN AND SHOOT" You never know! Great thread and good to see you guys again! Take care

irishfbfan1

Oneback
06-13-2012, 06:16 PM
The RnS never died, its still alive and well in the NFL and college - granted teams don't call their offense the RnS anymore but everyone uses the concepts. Just like the WCO, there isn't a true WCO anymore, but there are plenty of offenses that use its concepts. The Choice and Switch routes are fairly common from HS on up, you also see the Seam and Streak reads built into a lot of modern passing concepts. It's never gone away - smart coaches take what works from other offenses and incorporate them into their own and wala here we are in the modern age of football - a melting pot of offensive styles.

irishfbfan1
06-14-2012, 06:39 PM
The RnS never died, its still alive and well in the NFL and college - granted teams don't call their offense the RnS anymore but everyone uses the concepts. Just like the WCO, there isn't a true WCO anymore, but there are plenty of offenses that use its concepts. The Choice and Switch routes are fairly common from HS on up, you also see the Seam and Streak reads built into a lot of modern passing concepts. It's never gone away - smart coaches take what works from other offenses and incorporate them into their own and wala here we are in the modern age of football - a melting pot of offensive styles.


So true oneback, and great post buddy! All of us coaches are thieves when it comes to football strategies, and all of us admit it it! Yes there are thieves when it comes to scheming when talking madden and ncaa. The important thing and I think that I eluded to it in my above essay lol, is that you need to incorporate your own ideas, put your signature or touch on the system you may know and love or have accustomed to. By doing this you have opened the door for other new and appealing ways to to improve an already proven philosophy that just may attract others.

What if the above scenario with June Jones had worked as far as using the TE'S with his Run and Shoot offense?

Another area where I have seen coaches in real life try to tackle is merging the Run and Shoot with some kind of Veer option attack similar to what Georgia Southern used to run, or maybe Navy's ground attack with the Shoot. Just so damn hard to practice and get all the ins and outs for your football team. You would be running two complete offenses trying to form one. Doesnt hurt to experiment though!

Good stuff guys!

Irish

Oneback
06-14-2012, 07:22 PM
Completely agree I'm a multiple pro, shifting, motioning, h-back fiend - that being said I really like the RnS 60/1 Go concept with the A-Back running the sweep route and Y-Back running a seam read - its a great sprint out pass which fits in well with our one back zone running game where we motion the slot over into a trips look quite a bit to handle the overhang/force player.

JeffHCross
06-26-2012, 11:01 PM
The R&S won't work in-game until the spread rushing is consistent and reliable. Otherwise you're essentially restricted to only passing -- ever, which is counter to the philosophies of the Run & Shoot.

agreed. until a true numbers advantage works in the game and run/pass blocking results are more predictable, the run aspect of the run & shoot wont be as successful as it will in real life.

As far as formations, the R&S has two. Either 2 X 2 or 3 X 1 - which would be Trips to one side or the other. Where EA needs work is on the running game in Shot-Gun and they also need to implement a proper Shovel Pass; a staple in the R&S as well as the Air Raid.
Looks like we might have hope. It's against Varsity difficulty, naturally, but I was able to just put up 17 carries for 130 yards (or something like that) using USC's Shotgun running plays. Very bland, like 45 Quick Base, HB Draw and HB Sweep. Nothing exotic, and I took several losses trying to figure out how to run 45 Quick Base with the pulling guard who doesn't seem to block anyone.

Dr Death
06-27-2012, 10:38 AM
Looks like we might have hope. It's against Varsity difficulty, naturally, but I was able to just put up 17 carries for 130 yards (or something like that) using USC's Shotgun running plays. Very bland, like 45 Quick Base, HB Draw and HB Sweep. Nothing exotic, and I took several losses trying to figure out how to run 45 Quick Base with the pulling guard who doesn't seem to block anyone.

Have you played as :Baylor: yet? In Shotgun Spread they have a play called: HB Mid Screen, which is a Shovel Pass... you have to read the D to know when to shovel it to him... but I've had great success w/ it. As far as the running game... I see that lousy G I used to have transferred to your team!!! :D :D :D

souljahbill
06-27-2012, 12:36 PM
Have you played as :Baylor: yet? In Shotgun Spread they have a play called: HB Mid Screen, which is a Shovel Pass... you have to read the D to know when to shovel it to him... but I've had great success w/ it. As far as the running game... I see that lousy G I used to have transferred to your team!!! :D :D :D

You're going to go through every formation and add that formation to your custom playbook that has a variation of that play, aren't you?

Dr Death
06-27-2012, 03:42 PM
You're going to go through every formation and add that formation to your custom playbook that has a variation of that play, aren't you?

Fuckin' A right I am!!! :D I just hope that the game will allow me to audible from 5-Wide to that play... because against certain defensive fronts in the demo, the play is lethal!!!

JeffHCross
06-27-2012, 07:40 PM
Have you played as :Baylor: yet?Outside of the Heisman Challenge, no. My test last night was to use a non-Spread team to run. Because in years past, it's been possible to run Read Option/QB Wrap/etc from Shotgun, but a "regular" Shotgun running game was difficult to sustain at best. So I wanted to use Pro-Style shotgun runs as a test. USC's was horribly limited though ... I might test Alabama or LSU tonight.

Escobar
06-28-2012, 01:17 PM
Try LSU's. I've had success with them.

souljahbill
06-28-2012, 01:27 PM
How can you tell if it's man or zone pre-snap besides putting a receiver in motion? Is there a way to tell alignment wise? This could greatly improve my pathetic passing game.

Dr Death
06-28-2012, 03:05 PM
How can you tell if it's man or zone pre-snap besides putting a receiver in motion? Is there a way to tell alignment wise? This could greatly improve my pathetic passing game.

I will answer this a couple of ways - the way it works in real life and the way it is in the game...

In real life, the R&S would motion guys, sometimes all the way, sometimes just to the QB and then back to where he started from. This would tell the offense if it was Zone or Man. Once June Jones got to :Hawaii: he almost completely did away w/ motion by just lining up in a Trips formation. When in 2X2 he rarely used motion as the defense was determined after the snap of the ball.

Now, in the game, you could use motion or line up in Trips and you would know, instantly, if the D was in Man or Zone, but since EA decided to have defenses "disguise" their looks by showing Man on every play, you'll have to get used to reading the way guys line up on D and reacting quickly after the snap. There are subtle ways of telling Man or Zone by how the CB's and/or FS/SS line up and when in 4-Wide, how the LBer lines up.

I will say this though - EA "disguising" coverage is complete crap. When a team calls Cover 2 on defense, the CB doesn't follow the WR if he goes in motion. Why EA decided to do this is beyond me, but I'll be willing to bet it's out of next year's game.

Oneback
06-28-2012, 05:30 PM
I will say this though - EA "disguising" coverage is complete crap. When a team calls Cover 2 on defense, the CB doesn't follow the WR if he goes in motion. Why EA decided to do this is beyond me, but I'll be willing to bet it's out of next year's game.

While I completely agree with you - in Cover 2 Match the corners would travel.

Dr Death
06-28-2012, 06:14 PM
While I completely agree with you - in Cover 2 Match the corners would travel.

There is Cover 2 Man defense where, yes, the CB would follow the WR because they are in Man... I was talking specifically about Cover 2 Zone. And why do teams run Cover 2 Zone? To prevent sweeps, screens, quick outs to the TE, etc... And that's why the CB's stay at home. As EA has it in this year's game, that "always showing Man" is going to be exploited to hell and back.

There are many ways to disguise coverage, it's just sad that they chose the path they did. It isn't real. And I think the one thing we all agree on at this site is that we want realism. And playing any zone coverage and having your DB follow a WR in motion is counter-productive to calling the zone defense. Because in doing so, you are now creating holes in your defense, which defeats the purpose of calling a zone in the first place.

There are Cover 2 Man and Cover 2 Zone defenses... EA should realize this and have the defense and the CPU behave accordingly.

Escobar
06-28-2012, 06:25 PM
Just hit :ps3tri: right to "disguise" coverage or man-align lol. This will make them stay put and in their zone alignment.

Dr Death
06-28-2012, 07:05 PM
Just hit :ps3tri: right to "disguise" coverage or man-align lol. This will make them stay put and in their zone alignment.

Unfortunately, the CPU doesn't do that and that is what my complaint is about.

Oneback
06-28-2012, 07:29 PM
There is Cover 2 Man defense where, yes, the CB would follow the WR because they are in Man... I was talking specifically about Cover 2 Zone. And why do teams run Cover 2 Zone? To prevent sweeps, screens, quick outs to the TE, etc... And that's why the CB's stay at home. As EA has it in this year's game, that "always showing Man" is going to be exploited to hell and back.

There are many ways to disguise coverage, it's just sad that they chose the path they did. It isn't real. And I think the one thing we all agree on at this site is that we want realism. And playing any zone coverage and having your DB follow a WR in motion is counter-productive to calling the zone defense. Because in doing so, you are now creating holes in your defense, which defeats the purpose of calling a zone in the first place.

There are Cover 2 Man and Cover 2 Zone defenses... EA should realize this and have the defense and the CPU behave accordingly.

Again I agree completely with your point of view on it, however Cover 2 Match (probably called several different things in other systems/terminologies) is a zone coverage where the corner will travel with the WR and the linebackers will BOW. This is used by teams that don't have great corners (Cover 2 helps protect average corners) that are also not good tacklers - thus allowing the defense to protect their corners and put a better tackling linebacker as the weak side force defender.

That being said, this is not something the CPU will do so it's a moot point when playing the CPU and will open up the running game away from the slot.

JeffHCross
06-28-2012, 08:24 PM
I will say this though - EA "disguising" coverage is complete crap. When a team calls Cover 2 on defense, the CB doesn't follow the WR if he goes in motion. Why EA decided to do this is beyond me, but I'll be willing to bet it's out of next year's game.But, but, all those guys posted Wishlist threads saying the CB should follow the receiver ....

Oh wait.

mew3782
07-02-2012, 09:10 PM
Dr. Death, would you mind taking us step-by-step through your read progression when using a play like 60 Slide? With 3 option routes in the same play, I would think this play could be unstoppable if executed correctly...maybe you could describe how you'd pre- and post-read against some basic defenses (Cover 1/2/3, Man w/2 deep zone, etc)

Dr Death
07-03-2012, 02:01 PM
Dr. Death, would you mind taking us step-by-step through your read progression when using a play like 60 Slide? With 3 option routes in the same play, I would think this play could be unstoppable if executed correctly...maybe you could describe how you'd pre- and post-read against some basic defenses (Cover 1/2/3, Man w/2 deep zone, etc)

I am hoping to go through a vast majority of the Run & Shoot this week, before the game comes out unless you have the Season Pass, but I am also keenly aware that EA did nothing to improve the R&S in the game, otherwise I'm quite certain they would have used it during one of their video blogs to boast about the "new improvements."

But, to go over the 60 Slide as it is in the game - and right now this is all based on NCAA '12 and the demo for '13 - your three main reads are going to be on the Trips side. In the :SMU: playbook 60 Slide is in the Trips formation and Trips HB Weak - {WK} - formation. In real life the 4 WR's are called as such:

X.............W................................... ......Y................Z

In Trips Right they would be like this on 60 Slide:

X................................................. ........Y....W....Z

Since they all can't be on the LOS, this is how it will look:

X................................................. ....................Z
.................................................. .........Y....W

Your first read is always going to be the Y receiver, or A on XBox. I don't have a PS3, so I'm not certain what icon he will have on that system, but it's the inside WR on the Trips side. The way EA has the R&S in the game is so vastly different than real life, thus making it easier at times, but also much more frustrating because so much of what makes up the R&S is left out of the game.

But let's look at some basic defenses and why Y {A} is your primary read:

Against Cover 3 he is going to run a Seam route. W/ the SS dropping down that means the FS has the entire middle of the field to cover, and you want to hit Y {A} after he clears the LB's and/or SS and before the FS can get to him. In real life, this play can be gold because in real life LB's don't have super-human abilities and the FS isn't psychic. There's another rule in the R&S that if a defender comes over to cover you, then you "cut across his face." So... let's say the D shows Cover 3 early and the FS is already in the middle of the field anticipating the Y receiver running the Seam route. And at the snap of the ball the FS "jumps" the route, then the WR is instructed to "cut across his face" - thus forcing the FS to turn completely around and in the time it takes him to do that, the WR will be well on his way to the end zone. If that situation arose, the WR would "cut across his face" by running a Post Route.

Your second read against Cover 3 would be the Z receiver, or B on XBox. Against Cover 3 he runs a Hook Route at 10-12 yards and when timed right, will be wide open as the CB is dropping back to protect against the deep route. The Z {B} receiver can help this by running hard as if he is going deep, and the second the CB turns his hips to protect against the Go Route, the receiver cuts it off and does the Hook. Again, when timed right, it is virtually unstoppable.

The W receiver, or {LB} on XBox, runs the Bubble and is the last of your three reads. If you have run this play over and over and hit Y and Z, you will find times when the D starts over protecting against that and the Bubble to W {LB} will be open. This is of course a real life tendency that you won't find in the game, since EA really doesn't have an adaptive and intelligent AI that picks up on certain tendencies.

Against Cover 2 again Y is the primary WR and he will run a Post Route and Z will run a Go Route, w/ the QB needing to hit him before the SS gets over to that area of the field. Again, this all depends on what has happened prior in the game. If you've run this play against Cover 2 five times and all five times you've hit Y on the Post for big gains, then one of the safety's is going to be a little more protective of the middle of the field. If it's the SS, then you have the Z on the Go Route. If it's the FS, then you have X on the Go Route.

Against a Blitz, you want to hit Y, typically on a Hot Route. Since the D is blitzing they will be in Man and Y just does a quick slant across the middle of the field. This isn't in the game, but you can make the read and Hot Route Y yourself to this route. In real life, the R&S used to call this play in 2 X 2 formation, as such:

Rip 60 Z Slide

X...............................LT....LG....C....R G....RT.........................Z
...........................W...................... ..............Y.....{W after motion}

...............................................QB. ..SB

The Rip means W will motion Right. They could also reverse this or flip it and call it Liz 61 X Slide. Liz would mean Y motions Left.

Now when W - or Y - would motion, if the D was in Man, the motioning WR would yell out UNDER and this changed everyone's routes on the Trips side. Z now runs a Post, W - the Motion WR - runs a Wheel Route and Y runs about 5 yards, fakes hard to the inside and then cuts outside. Basically a 5 & Out, but w/ that hard fake to the inside. And since he would be covered by the SS, he would almost always be open because very few SS's can cover a small, speedy WR.

Unfortunately, this is another of the things EA didn't implement from this offense into the game. With the new Hot Routes this year, you could, conceivably, Hot Route Y to do what they do in real life.

Also, w/ the Bubble Screen supposedly working better this year, if you see a Cover 4 or even an all out blitz - EA's idiotic 8 Man Blitz - you could also hit W {LB} on the Bubble and probably have some great success. Without having the game yet I don't know how effective the Bubble will be against a Cover 3 or a Cover 6... that is yet to be determined.

Hopefully this provides some help and some insight. It is so very frustrating that EA only implemented about 3% of the offense in the game, but if you know how to make quick, post-snap reads and can make pre-snap reads and Hot Route certain guys, or know who to go to quickly, the play can be very lethal.

mew3782
07-04-2012, 09:53 AM
Thanks so much! Would you also mind describing your progression for the 61 Choice?

Dr Death
07-04-2012, 12:49 PM
Thanks so much! Would you also mind describing your progression for the 61 Choice?

Keep in mind it's not my progression, I am giving you information from the plethora of Mouse Davis and/or June Jones playbooks I have. The trick is tying it in w/ the game. Since the R&S isn't properly implemented in the game I don't run it. In 2002 I saw the Rich Gannon led :Oakland_Raiders: and their pass-heavy offense and I saw that whenever they went 5-Wide they were unstoppable.

In week two of that year when Gannon was throwing all over the :Pitt_Steelers: it gave me an idea for an offense that's part West Coast, part Run & Shoot, part Air Raid and played out of 5-Wide. So what I run is maybe 10% R&S...

Anyway... since today is the 4th and I have stuff going on I will try to do a full write up on the R&S tomorrow and spotlight several of the plays {and all the ones in the game - all 4 of them} Thanks for your interest and hopefully tomorrow I can have a more complete picture laid out for you.

baseballplyrmvp
07-04-2012, 02:41 PM
Dr D.....how do the progressions change against the defenses above, if you throw in a rip/liz call on 60 slide, thereby running it from 2x2 instead of trips?

Dr Death
07-04-2012, 04:27 PM
Dr D.....how do the progressions change against the defenses above, if you throw in a rip/liz call on 60 slide, thereby running it from 2x2 instead of trips?

Since it's like 140* here I decided to come back inside to the air conditioner :D and since I am here I may as well tackle this stuff right now. What you have to realize is the R&S has packages of plays that are run from the base formation, which is 2 X 2, and packages run from Trips formations. Slide is always run from the Trips formation. It either starts as 2 X 2 and then W or Y will motion or they will line up in Trips right from the get-go.

That's real life, but since they changed the way routes are run in the game when you motion a guy this year - say you line up in Trips Right and W {LB} is running the Bubble, if you were to motion him to the left side, creating a base or 2 X 2 formation, his Bubble will now flip. So while this isn't something they do in real life, you could do that this year. If you line up and can tell they are blitzing hard from the left, and you're in Trips Right, you could motion W {LB} to the left and hit him on the Bubble going away from the defense. How well will this work? I don't know yet, since I don't have the game. But from what I can tell by the demo, this would be a possibility, although it isn't something teams do in real life.

I'm going to start a L-O-N-G post on the R&S, basically breaking down many of its concepts and the beginnings of it as we know it today, how it's changed subtly over the years and how you can use the few plays in the game to your advantage.

Dr Death
07-04-2012, 07:25 PM
Alright, we have 5 pages in this thread right now, which is cool. That tells me there are some people interested in the offense and how they can use the minor sample of plays in the NCAA game in their offense. Those of you who know me from reading my posts about the R&S know that I can write some pretty lengthy articles on it and this one will be no different. It will be long! So sit back and get ready for a long and in-depth read.

I think most already know how the R&S came to be - Tiger Ellison - a High School coach in Ohio basically created the beginnings of it and Mouse Davis took it from there. Mouse coached High School ball in Oregon for 15 years and used this offense to take advantage of his smaller players and changing the game from a game of muscle and size to one of intelligence {finding openings in Zones/ knowing how to beat your man when in Man coverage} and speed, taking advantage of smaller, faster receivers and forcing team's to either cover them w/ LB's or 3rd and 4th string DB's.

During Mouse's time in High School his teams were 79-29 and won the 1973 State Championship as well as setting many records. From there he moved to :Portland_State:, where he went 42-24. In the 28 years prior to Mouse arriving at :Portland_State: the Vikings were a pathetic 90-152-7. Suffice to say that Mouse turned a perennial loser into a winner. In the 5 years after he left, the Vikings went 19-33-1.

In 1982 Mouse went to the CFL and installed his offense for the Toronto Argonauts, who went 2-14 the year prior to Mouse's arrival and they made it to the Grey Cup that year, losing 16-32, but the following year, still using the R&S, they won the Grey Cup, which is the Super Bowl for the CFL.

In 1984 Mouse joined the USFL and the Houston Gamblers. Jim Kelly and his "Mouseketeers" lit up the league, throwing for 5,219 yards and 44 TD passes. In two seasons in the R&S, Kelly compiled 9,842 yards and 83 TD passes, hitting on 63% of his passes and averaging a whopping 8.53 per attempt.

It was during these years that a lot of people stood up and took notice of the R&S Offense. And one of the things that I believe ultimately hurt it was that Mouse was very eager to teach it to other coaches. While this shows the kind of person he is, it also pulled back the curtain for defensive coaches. What was once a huge mystery to them now was better understood. It didn't shut the offense down, but it certainly didn't help by having defenses knowing what to look for.

From 1989 to 1996 the R&S was in the NFL, w/ the :Detroit_Lions: - :Atlanta_Falcons: and http://i49.tinypic.com/2mpitxk.jpg using it at various times. All three teams made the play-offs when using it and in 1991 they finished 9th, 5th and 4th in points scored respectively. All three had great success running the ball as well, which is one of the worst misconceptions about the offense. In 1991 the http://i49.tinypic.com/2mpitxk.jpg averaged 4.1 per carry and scored 16 TD's and gained 1,366 yards rushing. The :Atlanta_Falcons: averaged 4.1 per attempt, gaining 1,664 yards and scoring 6 TD's and the :Detroit_Lions:, w/ Barry Sanders, averaged 4.3, gaining 1,930 yards and scoring 19 TD's. And this was the worst year for the R&S team's in terms of running the football. They usually averaged between 4.4 and 5.1 per carry. That year the :Detroit_Lions: went 12-4, the :Atlanta_Falcons: went 10-6 and the http://i49.tinypic.com/2mpitxk.jpg went 11-5.

Through the 1996 season, when the :Atlanta_Falcons: w/ June Jones were still running the R&S full time, the offense was still the same as when Mouse Davis first came up w/ it. A few subtle changes were made along the way however, including the Back Shoulder Fade that is now so common in football. This happened by accident in 1985 on the http://i46.tinypic.com/1zt7o8.jpg when QB Bob Gagliano tried to hit a WR down near the goal-line. The CB jammed the receiver, forcing Gagliano to throw it to his back shoulder. As soon as he saw the play, June Jones said: "That's got to be a play!!!" And the Back Shoulder Fade or Stop Fade was born.

Once Jones arrived at :Hawaii: he began tinkering w/ the offense, including placing the QB in Shot-Gun full time and lining up in Trips more often and reducing and almost completely eliminating the motioning of receivers. When Jones took over in 1999, :Hawaii: was coming off an 0-12 season and had lost 18 games in a row and they were 118th out of 118 team's in total offense in 1998. In Jones' first year they finished 9-4, then the biggest turn around in college football history and their offense was # 2 in the country.

The Run & Shoot has been used by a lot of teams from little league to High School to College to the Pro level. It's won championships in High School and Div. II and III levels as well as in the CFL and made the play-offs year after year in the NFL and has set records everywhere it's been. As much as I respect June Jones and his desire to take down-trodden teams and turn them around, just once I would like to see him at a big-time school w/ big-time talent. He's a tremendous coach - as can be witnessed by his W-L record and all the former college and pro players who sing his praises. He knows how to attack defenses and he's a great teacher of the game. He excels at teaching technique and June Jones at some big-time school would result in a National Championship, in my opinion. When he took over at :Hawaii: they were on the verge of dropping the football program altogether, then in 9 years he had them in the :Sugar_Bowl:. At :SMU: he took a team that hadn't been to a bowl game in 25 years and has gone to 3 straight, winning 2 and defeating a heavily favored :Nevada: team 45-10.

So... w/ all that said, let's jump into the minimal amount of R&S plays in the game and how you can use these to your advantage.

Above I pretty much covered the Slide Route, so we'll look into the Go and Choice Routes. I will say this; EA has not properly implemented any of these plays, as they have left out too many of the options for the WR's to run. Perhaps it's their engine and it just can't handle it, but the reality is that in real life, there are more option routes that can be run than what is in the game. One small advantage you have is if you can read a defense and see - before the snap - what they are in, you can always Hot Route a guy to what he would do in real life.

The Choice Route is run out of Trips and is designed to get your best WR singled up against one DB on the side of the field opposite of the Trips side. He has the "Choice" of what route to run based on how the defender is playing him. Typically he will have 4 Route Options: An Out at 10-12 yards - a Skinny Post - A Comeback at 15 yards or a Go Route. All of this is based on how he is being defended. So, if the CB playing him is pressing him from inside - basically cutting him off from going inside - he sells the Go Route and at 10-12 yards he then cuts his route off to the Out. This is the base play on the Choice Route. However, let's say the DB is pressing him from the outside, closing off the Out Route, this is where the WR would read the FS and run either a Go or a Post Route.

The beauty in this play is that whatever the defense does will be wrong. And once you run this enough, it will force the defense to slide coverage over to that side of the field, thus opening the Trips side routes. One major problem in the game is trying to see the outside receivers. And let's face it, if you can't see them, you can't throw to them. Another problem is the middle receiver on the Trips side actually has several option routes to run, yet in the game he only has two, a Post or a Deep In. He should have a Go or Seam Route, Post, In and Hook, and the Hook can vary depending on where the defense is. So he basically reads the D and finds the opening between him and the QB, meaning his Hook could happen in a number of places at around 10-12 yards. Yet these aren't in the game. If you Hot Route him to a Hook Route, he will run the Hook and then just stand there even if a LBer is standing right in front of him. So again, total failure on EA's part of implementing this play correctly.

As I mentioned prior, I don't use the R&S in the game because it really isn't the R&S. However, when "practicing" I always look to the two inside guys on the Trips side. For one, I can see them and two, you have both a short and a deeper route to choose from. This year, w/ Super LB's out of the game and no more Psychic DB's, this play could be very good to use if you want to run it. You could even try and move your QB out of the pocket to see the outside WR, but know that doing this could result in more sacks.

Now for the Go Route. This is a play I just love because it is guaranteed to work against any defense you can imagine. Your first read is the inside slot receiver on the Trips side. He runs a quick out. You can gain 3 yards or 90 yards hitting him. It will work against any defense but is great against Cover 3, Cover 1, Man 2 Deep and any blitz they throw at you. You can even get this to work against Cover 2 if you throw it quickly, just remember the CB will be staying at home and a late throw - especially in an EA game - will result in a pick six.

On the Go Route both outside receivers run Go Routes. Their job is to get to the outside, even if the DB is pressing them from the outside, so they can clear space for the quick out and then they run a Fade/Go Route. EA has the single side receiver running a Curl Route. This is wrong. The only time he does not run a Go Route is if he cannot beat his guy deep, he cuts his route off and runs a Comeback at about 15 yards, driving back to the sideline at around 12 yards.

The middle receiver on the Trips side has several option routes, EA has him running a Seam/Go, a Post or a Hook. Again, this is wrong. He should run a Seam/Go, a Post or a Deep In, not a short Hook. You can Hot Route him to the Deep In, but know if you've read the defense wrong you will eliminate his other two Option Routes, thus hurting your chances w/ the play.

The Go Route is great to use as an audible IN THE GAME! Why? Because, if you see a full on blitz, you hit the inside WR on the Trips side for an easy gain. If you see one of the outside CB's blitzing, you hit that WR on the Go Route. You have to throw quickly before the FS or SS can get to him. You can also Hot Route the middle WR on the Trips side to a quick Slant over the middle against a Blitz or against Man.

For those of you interested in using the Run & Shoot in the game this year, do yourself a favor and go to the :Baylor: playbook and find the Shotgun HB Mid Screen. This is essentially a true Shovel Pass and works great against 3 man lines. I will be adding this to my playbook and hoping that I can audible to it from 5-Wide, because it can be very lethal. This adds one more true R&S play to your arsenal.

I truly wish that EA would give us more of the R&S in the game, because it is a beautiful offense that takes time to learn, but once learned can be very effective. If anyone has any questions feel free to ask in this thread or PM me. If you are on X-Box and want to "Lab" to help improve your passing game, I would be happy to do that too. Next w/ end I am flying to Philadelphia to sit front row at Roger Waters - The Wall Live. But after the 16th I'll be available just about anytime to lab.

Hoping this has provided some insight into the offense and I truly would love to dive into more of it, but it's rather useless when EA only has a few actual plays in the game. Perhaps someday they'll implement the entire thing. That would be a lot of fun!

morsdraconis
07-04-2012, 09:06 PM
Holy shit... I swear, one of these days, I'm going to read all this stuff Death. The R&S is INCREDIBLY fascinating to me, though the Air Raid has become my main center of attention what with WVU switching to it with the hiring of Holgorsen and all.

JeffHCross
07-04-2012, 09:15 PM
Death, just a sanity check here ('cause otherwise my brain is about to explode), but when you say Go Route, you mean the Go play that's in the R&S playbooks in game, not a Streak hot route, right? 'Cause whenever I read route, I think an individual route, not a play or concept.

baseballplyrmvp
07-04-2012, 09:48 PM
Now for the Go Route. This is a play I just love because it is guaranteed to work against any defense you can imagine. Your first read is the inside slot receiver on the Trips side. He runs a quick out. You can gain 3 yards or 90 yards hitting him. It will work against any defense but is great against Cover 3, Cover 1, Man 2 Deep and any blitz they throw at you. You can even get this to work against Cover 2 if you throw it quickly, just remember the CB will be staying at home and a late throw - especially in an EA game - will result in a pick six.

On the Go Route both outside receivers run Go Routes. Their job is to get to the outside, even if the DB is pressing them from the outside, so they can clear space for the quick out and then they run a Fade/Go Route. EA has the single side receiver running a Curl Route. This is wrong. The only time he does not run a Go Route is if he cannot beat his guy deep, he cuts his route off and runs a Comeback at about 15 yards, driving back to the sideline at around 12 yards.

The middle receiver on the Trips side has several option routes, EA has him running a Seam/Go, a Post or a Hook. Again, this is wrong. He should run a Seam/Go, a Post or a Deep In, not a short Hook. You can Hot Route him to the Deep In, but know if you've read the defense wrong you will eliminate his other two Option Routes, thus hurting your chances w/ the play.

The Go Route is great to use as an audible IN THE GAME! Why? Because, if you see a full on blitz, you hit the inside WR on the Trips side for an easy gain. If you see one of the outside CB's blitzing, you hit that WR on the Go Route. You have to throw quickly before the FS or SS can get to him. You can also Hot Route the middle WR on the Trips side to a quick Slant over the middle against a Blitz or against Man.


Death, just a sanity check here ('cause otherwise my brain is about to explode), but when you say Go Route, you mean the Go play that's in the R&S playbooks in game, not a Streak hot route, right? 'Cause whenever I read route, I think an individual route, not a play or concept.

i think he's referencing both in these paragraphs. the play he's referring to is called 60 go, and obviously features the outside receiver(s) running a go/streak route.

awesome writeup btw Dr D.

JeffHCross
07-04-2012, 10:06 PM
i think he's referencing both in these paragraphs. the play he's referring to is called 60 go, and obviously features the outside receiver(s) running a go/streak route.

awesome writeup btw Dr D.Yeah, I think I mainly got lost when he talked about using a Go Route as an audible. Wasn't sure if he meant a hot routed Streak or a 60 Go.

Dr Death
07-04-2012, 10:16 PM
Death, just a sanity check here ('cause otherwise my brain is about to explode), but when you say Go Route, you mean the Go play that's in the R&S playbooks in game, not a Streak hot route, right? 'Cause whenever I read route, I think an individual route, not a play or concept.

Yes, in the game it's simply called: 60 Go. In real life it could be called several ways: Rip 60 Z Go, Load 60 X Go, Trips Right 60 Z Go, Trips Left 60 X Go, Early Rip 60 Z Go, Early Load 60 X Go... etc...

Terminology can vary from coach to coach, but that's essentially how it will be called. So yes, when talking about the Go Route, I mean the 60 Go as it is in the game, NOT a Hot Route.

Dr Death
07-04-2012, 10:19 PM
Yeah, I think I mainly got lost when he talked about using a Go Route as an audible. Wasn't sure if he meant a hot routed Streak or a 60 Go.

Yeah, I meant using 60 Go as an audible because of the quick pass to the inside slot receiver on the Trips side. In 5-Wide I use Inside Switch this way, it's a great play that has that one element of the 60 Go route, which I love.

Dr Death
07-04-2012, 10:23 PM
Holy shit... I swear, one of these days, I'm going to read all this stuff Death. The R&S is INCREDIBLY fascinating to me, though the Air Raid has become my main center of attention what with WVU switching to it with the hiring of Holgorsen and all.

Like you, I have become more and more intrigued w/ the Air Raid and actually consider myself more of an Air Raid person now because of my love of Mike Leach and his style. His offense does, however, have some elements of the R&S in it, so when you consider learning more about the R&S, you'll see some similarities. Talking real life here, not EA life. :D


i think he's referencing both in these paragraphs. the play he's referring to is called 60 go, and obviously features the outside receiver(s) running a go/streak route.

awesome writeup btw Dr D.

Thank you my man!!! Much appreciated!!!

morsdraconis
07-05-2012, 08:08 AM
Like you, I have become more and more intrigued w/ the Air Raid and actually consider myself more of an Air Raid person now because of my love of Mike Leach and his style. His offense does, however, have some elements of the R&S in it, so when you consider learning more about the R&S, you'll see some similarities. Talking real life here, not EA life. :D

I'm not where close to as learned on the subject as you are, but, as a slight tangent on the subject of the Air Raid offense pertaining to the success of QBs from that system in the NFL, have you noticed a reason why QBs struggle coming from a system like the Air Raid or R&S offense when attempting to transition to the more complex offenses that most NFL teams run?

I ask because I got into a pretty heated debate over that very fact when talking about the illogical notion that Robert Griffin will break the streak of unsuccessful NFL QBs that have come from an Air Raid and/or R&S system.

Dr Death
07-05-2012, 09:46 AM
I'm not where close to as learned on the subject as you are, but, as a slight tangent on the subject of the Air Raid offense pertaining to the success of QBs from that system in the NFL, have you noticed a reason why QBs struggle coming from a system like the Air Raid or R&S offense when attempting to transition to the more complex offenses that most NFL teams run?

I ask because I got into a pretty heated debate over that very fact when talking about the illogical notion that Robert Griffin will break the streak of unsuccessful NFL QBs that have come from an Air Raid and/or R&S system.

Actually, yes, I can provide some insight to this question, though I'm quite certain some won't agree w/ me. There were two R&S QB's who were hugely successful in college and failed miserably as pro's, and they both played for :Houston:. Andre Ware - Heisman winner, and David Klingler. Both were first round draft picks and neither did much of anything in the pro's. And because of their failures, ALL R&S QB's were labeled as "System Quarterbacks." It was a bad rap for guys ever since and something I find totally ridiculous.

How they {The NFL} can blame someone today for the errors of two guys from the 1990's is beyond me, but they do. And I always hear the same excuses:

1: The Run & Shoot can make any QB look good

2: The Run & Shoot is simple and NFL offenses are not

3: The Run & Shoot spreads the field and in the NFL, they have to adjust to playing w/ a TE and a FB

Now, as to # 1, yes, the R&S can make a lot of QB's look better than they are simply because the offense creates many instances where WR's are wide open or at least more open than what one typically sees in the NFL. As far as # 2 goes, the R&S is anything but simple. When you have routes that may have as many as 12-16 reads depending on the defense, that takes someone w/ some intelligence and also requires a lot of work to get down.

As far as # 3, that I do agree with but I also feel that the NFL is very slow to change. When the R&S was in the NFL everybody hated it except the teams running it. The three teams that ran it all made the play-offs, but teams hated defending it as can be witnessed by comments by some of the greatest defenders of all time, guys like Rod Woodson and Howie Long.

I think that after Ware and Klingler the NFL just said: Screw these guys! I know a couple of Leach's QB's were given "shots" but they weren't given any time to grow and progress. B.J. Symons was drafted in the 7th round by the :Houston_Texans:. He was there for one year, in NFL Europe for one year, then on the :Chicago_Bears: for one year, back to NFLE for one year and then the Arena League until the team he was on folded.

Kliff Kingsbury was drafted by :NE_Patriots: in round 6, and spent his rookie year on IR, then was waived the next year, signed w/ the :New_Orleans_Saints: where he was on the practice squad, played on the :Denver_Broncos: and later the :New_York_Jets: before going to the CFL and is now a college coach as the OC for :Texas_A&M:.

Graham Harrell went undrafted, tried out for the :Cleveland_Browns:, went to the CFL, and is now on :Green_Bay_Packers: where he will be the backup to Aaron Rodgers this year. Coach Mike McCarthy has spoken out about how impressed he has been w/ Harrell. Harrell also pulled off an amazing comeback for the :Green_Bay_Packers: in last year's pre-season, leading them to 11 points in the final :30+ seconds, coming back from 13-21 to a 24-21 win.

Colt Brennan was drafted by :Wash_Redskins: in round 6, his rookie year he led all QB's in rating and completion percentage and led three 4th quarter comebacks in the pre-season and proved he could make all the throws. His second year, as he was fighting for the backup spot, he suffered two injuries and tried to play through them but ultimately was pulled off the field in the fourth pre-season game when it was evident he was too injured. He spent that year on IR. The following season Shanahan came in and kept Colt on the roster until after the first practice of training camp, then he was cut when they traded for John Beck, who's played like complete garbage his entire NFL career.

Chase Daniel, the QB at :Missouri:, is Drew Brees' backup and has been for a couple of years. As the NFL slowly starts to expand its horizons and use more spread formations and becomes more of a throwing league, I believe you'll see more Air Raid and R&S QB's getting a shot and succeeding at the NFL level. This year alone we saw RGIII and Brandon Weeden taken in the first round. Both ran spread offenses in college, w/ :Oklahoma_State: using the Air Raid during part of Weeden's career.

Mike Leach once quipped that the NFL doesn't have a clue when it comes to drafting QB's and whilst this didn't set well w/ NFL scouts, one has to agree w/ him to a certain extent. When guys like JaMarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, Joey Harrington, Jeff George and numerous others are taken high or first overall, and they either fail miserably {Russell} or take years to grow in maturity {George} you have to wonder just what does the NFL look for?

The answer is simple; they always look for the arm strength. Bill Walsh once said that arm strength was one of the last things he looked for in a QB. Footwork was his number one thing, leadership and accuracy were close behind. And when you see what Walsh did w/ Joe Montana you can clearly see that he knew what he was talking about. Montana was a guy very few teams would have taken and only the :San_Fran_49ers: were equipped to put him in an offense that suited him perfectly. And w/ that stroke of luck, Montana became arguably the greatest QB to ever play the game.

So I believe we are starting to see a change and the failures of Ware and Klingler are starting to be forgotten. Let's hope so... because to me, a wide open passing game is just a lot more fun!

morsdraconis
07-05-2012, 10:43 AM
I definitely think that part of the reason why no QB worth a damn (in the NFL stat-wise) has come from either of these offensive styles is because they haven't truly been given the opportunity to work out. The amount of QBs that come from the 4th round or lower and play at a high level in the NFL is astonishingly low, so, the byproduct of the stigma of coming from one of those offenses plus means they are drafted in those lower rounds and, thus, their likelihood of succeeding in the NFL is dramatically low.

All that said, my main proponent for not wanting my NFL team (Redskins) to draft someone (Griffin) from one of those offenses (Baylor HC Art Briles' [Mike Leach Disciple - as I'm sure you already knew] Air Raid offense) has, and always will be, the fact that the Air Raid offense, unlike the R&S offense, has simple reads. Mesh, Cross, Stick, Go, etc are such ridiculously simple reads that most QBs can quickly pick the offense up in the matter of one season (as shown by WVU's Geno Smith - who, btw, can't make a complex read to save his freakin' life and was the reason why the Pro offense that Bill Stewart was attempting to install was doomed from the start). They are made simple like that because college forces you to constantly have to reteach the same concepts over and over again as you get new kids on your roster and old ones graduate.

Combine the easy to learn offense (for both the QB and WR) with the fact that because the offense is so effective at getting players into space (along with the speed of it giving teams the ability to have more opportunities for those plays in space to happen), and you have guys getting WIDE open in space where the QB doesn't have to make a perfect throw, just a good throw, for the play to be a big gain.


It'll be interesting, in hindsight, to see what happens with this new crop of QBs coming from these offenses to a NFL that's starting to incorporate more and more of these style of offenses into their offensive gameplan.

ryby6969
07-05-2012, 10:52 AM
The one thing that will really help is the fact that the NFL is making it easier each year to throw the ball. DB's are not allowed to touch a WR, along with the fact that Safeties and LB's cannot be enforcers over the middle anymore so any WR is willing to go across the middle. I also think this is why we are seeing so many WR's become successful in the NFL that are drafted low or not even drafted at all. Add to the fact that QB's are willing to hang in the pocket longer because they do not have to worry as much about paying for holding onto the ball, and it is just a recipe for success.

Dr Death
07-05-2012, 03:05 PM
I definitely think that part of the reason why no QB worth a damn (in the NFL stat-wise) has come from either of these offensive styles is because they haven't truly been given the opportunity to work out. The amount of QBs that come from the 4th round or lower and play at a high level in the NFL is astonishingly low, so, the byproduct of the stigma of coming from one of those offenses plus means they are drafted in those lower rounds and, thus, their likelihood of succeeding in the NFL is dramatically low.

All that said, my main proponent for not wanting my NFL team (Redskins) to draft someone (Griffin) from one of those offenses (Baylor HC Art Briles' [Mike Leach Disciple - as I'm sure you already knew] Air Raid offense) has, and always will be, the fact that the Air Raid offense, unlike the R&S offense, has simple reads. Mesh, Cross, Stick, Go, etc are such ridiculously simple reads that most QBs can quickly pick the offense up in the matter of one season (as shown by WVU's Geno Smith - who, btw, can't make a complex read to save his freakin' life and was the reason why the Pro offense that Bill Stewart was attempting to install was doomed from the start). They are made simple like that because college forces you to constantly have to reteach the same concepts over and over again as you get new kids on your roster and old ones graduate.

Combine the easy to learn offense (for both the QB and WR) with the fact that because the offense is so effective at getting players into space (along with the speed of it giving teams the ability to have more opportunities for those plays in space to happen), and you have guys getting WIDE open in space where the QB doesn't have to make a perfect throw, just a good throw, for the play to be a big gain.


It'll be interesting, in hindsight, to see what happens with this new crop of QBs coming from these offenses to a NFL that's starting to incorporate more and more of these style of offenses into their offensive gameplan.

I appreciate your response and I think that Griffin III is going to be better than Luck as a pro. Call it a hunch. Part of my feeling on that is watching interviews w/ both of these guys and w/ RGIII I see something special, something intangible that I probably can't even explain, but I know it when I see it and I've seen it in other guys like Montana - Marino - Stabler - Elway - E. Manning etc... he just has that IT that makes people gravitate towards him and makes them want to be better.

So for you, as a :Wash_Redskins: fan, I think you have much to look forward to.

As far as the Air Raid, one of the beauties of that offense is that they have a small number of plays and they run them out of various formations. They can run the same play out of 4-wide, 3-wide w/ a TE, 3-wide w/ 2 RB's, 2-wide w/ 2 TE's and one RB and even 5-wide. That's one of the reasons the QB's so easily pick up the system, because, as Mike Leach said, 'It's easier to tell someone where to stand than to tell them a new route to run.'

I know this; when the R&S was in the NFL it succeeded. It succeeded in the USFL too. And I believe the Air Raid could succeed in the NFL as well. Whether or not Shanahan brings any Air Raid concepts into his scheme remains to be seen. I know this about Shanahan; he's stubborn. So I rather doubt he'll add any new wrinkles that suit RGIII and help ease him in to the NFL game, but if he were smart, he would add about 12-15 Air Raid plays and mix those in w/ his version of the West Coast Offense.

I'm pulling for RGIII big time. And like I said, in the end, I believe you'll be happy he was their choice.

JeffHCross
07-05-2012, 09:41 PM
I ask because I got into a pretty heated debate over that very fact when talking about the illogical notion that Robert Griffin will break the streak of unsuccessful NFL QBs that have come from an Air Raid and/or R&S system.I would generally agree with you, were we talking about Case Keenum or any of the other QBs who put up ungodly numbers without actually displaying above average talent on the field. I thought Griffin showed quite a solid head on his shoulders, which I think is what truly makes the difference between a legitimate QB and a QB who is the product of the system.

I also think it's worth mentioning (again) that Mike Shanahan invented the Shallow Cross, which is the one of the main concepts used in the Air Raid. So if anyone can take an Air Raid QB and make them into an NFL QB, I think it's Shanahan. Think being the key word.

nykia31
07-09-2012, 01:05 PM
Actually, yes, I can provide some insight to this question, though I'm quite certain some won't agree w/ me. There were two R&S QB's who were hugely successful in college and failed miserably as pro's, and they both played for :Houston:. Andre Ware - Heisman winner, and David Klingler. Both were first round draft picks and neither did much of anything in the pro's. And because of their failures, ALL R&S QB's were labeled as "System Quarterbacks." It was a bad rap for guys ever since and something I find totally ridiculous.

How they {The NFL} can blame someone today for the errors of two guys from the 1990's is beyond me, but they do. And I always hear the same excuses:

1: The Run & Shoot can make any QB look good

2: The Run & Shoot is simple and NFL offenses are not

3: The Run & Shoot spreads the field and in the NFL, they have to adjust to playing w/ a TE and a FB

Now, as to # 1, yes, the R&S can make a lot of QB's look better than they are simply because the offense creates many instances where WR's are wide open or at least more open than what one typically sees in the NFL. As far as # 2 goes, the R&S is anything but simple. When you have routes that may have as many as 12-16 reads depending on the defense, that takes someone w/ some intelligence and also requires a lot of work to get down.

As far as # 3, that I do agree with but I also feel that the NFL is very slow to change. When the R&S was in the NFL everybody hated it except the teams running it. The three teams that ran it all made the play-offs, but teams hated defending it as can be witnessed by comments by some of the greatest defenders of all time, guys like Rod Woodson and Howie Long.

I think that after Ware and Klingler the NFL just said: Screw these guys! I know a couple of Leach's QB's were given "shots" but they weren't given any time to grow and progress. B.J. Symons was drafted in the 7th round by the :Houston_Texans:. He was there for one year, in NFL Europe for one year, then on the :Chicago_Bears: for one year, back to NFLE for one year and then the Arena League until the team he was on folded.

Kliff Kingsbury was drafted by :NE_Patriots: in round 6, and spent his rookie year on IR, then was waived the next year, signed w/ the :New_Orleans_Saints: where he was on the practice squad, played on the :Denver_Broncos: and later the :New_York_Jets: before going to the CFL and is now a college coach as the OC for :Texas_A&M:.

Graham Harrell went undrafted, tried out for the :Cleveland_Browns:, went to the CFL, and is now on :Green_Bay_Packers: where he will be the backup to Aaron Rodgers this year. Coach Mike McCarthy has spoken out about how impressed he has been w/ Harrell. Harrell also pulled off an amazing comeback for the :Green_Bay_Packers: in last year's pre-season, leading them to 11 points in the final :30+ seconds, coming back from 13-21 to a 24-21 win.

Colt Brennan was drafted by :Wash_Redskins: in round 6, his rookie year he led all QB's in rating and completion percentage and led three 4th quarter comebacks in the pre-season and proved he could make all the throws. His second year, as he was fighting for the backup spot, he suffered two injuries and tried to play through them but ultimately was pulled off the field in the fourth pre-season game when it was evident he was too injured. He spent that year on IR. The following season Shanahan came in and kept Colt on the roster until after the first practice of training camp, then he was cut when they traded for John Beck, who's played like complete garbage his entire NFL career.

Chase Daniel, the QB at :Missouri:, is Drew Brees' backup and has been for a couple of years. As the NFL slowly starts to expand its horizons and use more spread formations and becomes more of a throwing league, I believe you'll see more Air Raid and R&S QB's getting a shot and succeeding at the NFL level. This year alone we saw RGIII and Brandon Weeden taken in the first round. Both ran spread offenses in college, w/ :Oklahoma_State: using the Air Raid during part of Weeden's career.

Mike Leach once quipped that the NFL doesn't have a clue when it comes to drafting QB's and whilst this didn't set well w/ NFL scouts, one has to agree w/ him to a certain extent. When guys like JaMarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, Joey Harrington, Jeff George and numerous others are taken high or first overall, and they either fail miserably {Russell} or take years to grow in maturity {George} you have to wonder just what does the NFL look for?

The answer is simple; they always look for the arm strength. Bill Walsh once said that arm strength was one of the last things he looked for in a QB. Footwork was his number one thing, leadership and accuracy were close behind. And when you see what Walsh did w/ Joe Montana you can clearly see that he knew what he was talking about. Montana was a guy very few teams would have taken and only the :San_Fran_49ers: were equipped to put him in an offense that suited him perfectly. And w/ that stroke of luck, Montana became arguably the greatest QB to ever play the game.

So I believe we are starting to see a change and the failures of Ware and Klingler are starting to be forgotten. Let's hope so... because to me, a wide open passing game is just a lot more fun!



I have done a bootleg, cut and paste Run and Shoot in the Madden Online Leagues that I am in. Ive managed to make Tuna Sandwiches like Mark Sanchez and Kevin Kolb, look like halfway decent QBs. :nod:

Ill be doing a ton of R&S and Air Raid vids, once the game gets in my hands. Mind if I slap em on this thread?

ram29jackson
07-09-2012, 02:54 PM
I have done a bootleg, cut and paste Run and Shoot in the Madden Online Leagues that I am in. Ive managed to make Tuna Sandwiches like Mark Sanchez and Kevin Kolb, look like halfway decent QBs. :nod:

Ill be doing a ton of R&S and Air Raid vids, once the game gets in my hands. Mind if I slap em on this thread?

youll notice a couple threads where ive slapped alot of your vids on the site :)

baseballplyrmvp
07-09-2012, 09:01 PM
I have done a bootleg, cut and paste Run and Shoot in the Madden Online Leagues that I am in. Ive managed to make Tuna Sandwiches like Mark Sanchez and Kevin Kolb, look like halfway decent QBs. :nod:

Ill be doing a ton of R&S and Air Raid vids, once the game gets in my hands. Mind if I slap em on this thread?

the more r&s guru's on here, the better, nykia. love listening to the vids that you make.

morsdraconis
07-10-2012, 05:03 AM
the more r&s guru's on here, the better, nykia. love listening to the vids that you make.

:+1:

Dr Death
07-10-2012, 05:24 AM
I have done a bootleg, cut and paste Run and Shoot in the Madden Online Leagues that I am in. Ive managed to make Tuna Sandwiches like Mark Sanchez and Kevin Kolb, look like halfway decent QBs. :nod:

Ill be doing a ton of R&S and Air Raid vids, once the game gets in my hands. Mind if I slap em on this thread?

Sorry I didn't notice this earlier, but yes, anything anyone wants to contribute, please feel free to do so. I found a great article discussing the Air Raid, complete w/ videos, and I may start a thread on that offense and just paste the link. It's essential reading to anyone interested in the Air Raid and also very educational for anyone interested in football and particularly, the passing game.

morsdraconis
07-10-2012, 07:50 AM
Sorry I didn't notice this earlier, but yes, anything anyone wants to contribute, please feel free to do so. I found a great article discussing the Air Raid, complete w/ videos, and I may start a thread on that offense and just paste the link. It's essential reading to anyone interested in the Air Raid and also very educational for anyone interested in football and particularly, the passing game.

:drool:

Please do!

Kingpin32
07-10-2012, 10:29 AM
:drool:

Please do!
:+1:!!

jolson88
07-10-2012, 02:02 PM
Sorry I didn't notice this earlier, but yes, anything anyone wants to contribute, please feel free to do so. I found a great article discussing the Air Raid, complete w/ videos, and I may start a thread on that offense and just paste the link. It's essential reading to anyone interested in the Air Raid and also very educational for anyone interested in football and particularly, the passing game.

Linky linky on article? :D That sounds like an awesome resource that I would love to read up on!

HWill
07-10-2012, 02:07 PM
http://smartfootball.com/offense/the-air-raid-offense-history-evolution-weirdness-from-mumme-to-leach-to-franklin-to-holgorsen-and-beyond

jolson88
07-10-2012, 02:42 PM
http://smartfootball.com/offense/the-air-raid-offense-history-evolution-weirdness-from-mumme-to-leach-to-franklin-to-holgorsen-and-beyond

Oh wow, that's awesome! Thanks :).

Dr Death
07-10-2012, 03:08 PM
http://smartfootball.com/offense/the-air-raid-offense-history-evolution-weirdness-from-mumme-to-leach-to-franklin-to-holgorsen-and-beyond

That's the link! The videos are great to watch and some are quite lengthy, but if you want to really learn about this offense {Air Raid} then this is essential. I may just start a new Air Raid thread, so it doesn't get buried in the R&S thread. Thanks HWill!!!

morsdraconis
07-10-2012, 03:16 PM
Awesome! Thanks Hwill! I have SO much shit to do though so it's gonna be a while before I get around to reading that. Might end up doing some of that at work. ;)

gigemaggs99
07-15-2012, 09:14 AM
If it wasn't for SMU the RNS may die out. Seems like last year there was a generic RNS playbook. Is SMU the only one this year?

Marlowe
07-15-2012, 02:50 PM
481


I'm usually a pound the rock type so it's taken awhile to get used to this offense. Finally starting to get the reads down. Still getting picked but not as bad as when I started. Nice offense. Looking forward to reading more of this thread.

JeffHCross
07-15-2012, 04:43 PM
If it wasn't for SMU the RNS may die out. Seems like last year there was a generic RNS playbook. Is SMU the only one this year?The generic playbook still exists, but apparently the Generic playbooks are not selectable in the Custom Playbook list.

morsdraconis
07-15-2012, 06:59 PM
Wait... Is Hawaii no longer R&S?

baseballplyrmvp
07-15-2012, 07:44 PM
Wait... Is Hawaii no longer R&S?

nope. they're now a pro style since norm chow took over as HC. :mad:

nykia31
07-24-2012, 01:23 PM
It would be a sad day if the R&S died in the College ranks.

June Jones cant coach forever. There has to be some younger R&S protege's out there, somewhere.

Online shooting


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgLIkleNjgE&list=UUiuWochyL2PIWbO7xlWI4fQ&index=2&feature=plcp

irishfbfan1
07-29-2012, 07:48 AM
It would be a sad day if the R&S died in the College ranks.

June Jones cant coach forever. There has to be some younger R&S protege's out there, somewhere.

Online shooting


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgLIkleNjgE&list=UUiuWochyL2PIWbO7xlWI4fQ&index=2&feature=plcp


I agree with you buddy it would be a sad day. I dont think this will happen, and what is amazing is all the little things that this offensive philosophy has rubbed off on in the PRO ranks, College ranks, and even the High School ranks not to mention the whole NCAA and MADDEN community. The CHOICE route, the Middle READ vs MOFO and MOFC, the STREAKS (Verticals) play in which a player can be tagged to run a shallow while all others are running streaks, the emphasis on specific adjustments to various OPTION routes, all of these things have been used or are being used with pro style teams, spread teams etc...Many of the Air Raid guys have adopted an adjustment with those 2 outside receivers stating that if those corners are playing soft and they even still bail at the snap, what good is it for the receivers to continue to try to get past this defender? Instead lets use what the Run and Shoot guys do, and that is after 12-14 and the defender is still soft and bailing lets throw up the hand, plant and turn that into a comeback or deep curl, a run and shoot concept.

Philosopher0
12-26-2015, 08:19 AM
You should check out runs and shoot 101 on Facebook. Its all about the shoot on m16. And it does have more than 3 shoot plays... its just very modern shoot stuff. Army concept is pistol trips open - Outs. Thunder is trips - double outs. Slide is how Manny M runs slide in his triple shoot. Gun spread z in easily converts to Texas concept. Go is pretty much correct now. Same with choice. What they lack is man and blitz conversions. For instance on go vs man seam read runs a slant. Vs 0 he runs more of a drag. X option is essentially read. Switch is broken into fragments and features outs instead of ins... which I'll grant you is dumb. But you can pass lead switch to more of a seam or a post. Pistol vertical read is True Streak in June Jones terminology. A lot of the offense works... just no blitz adjustments so you have to do them yourself.

Anyways checkout my Facebook group.