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Rudy
06-30-2011, 04:29 PM
I’m not sure why we have progressed to this point but it’s my belief that EA has effectively neutered almost all of the special RB moves we used to love. Based on the NCAA 12 demo the juke move has been neutered. It’s extremely ineffective. I personally thought the juke in NCAA 11 was perfectly fine and not over-powered at all. Last year the dual stick implementation (which virtually nobody used and EA knows this) neutered the truck stick/shoulder charge move. This entire generation has seen a neutered stiff arm that works so poorly most people don’t use it either. The only move left is the spin move. Will that be neutered in NCAA 13?

The PS2 days featured over-powered moves but they were still fun to use. These new moves are not only far less effective but they don’t allow you to pull off the stuff on TV anymore. Some people, not all, should be able to do things like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2X5-FY5IRY

Or this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXOa5RV7snU

I know those are two elite players but I feel the fun factor of trying to do that stuff has been eliminated in NCAA 12. I don’t know why we are heading down this road. Some may like but I do not. If any of the community day guys with an early copy of NCAA 12 can produce a video showing these moves actually working well I would love to see it.

gschwendt
06-30-2011, 04:34 PM
Serious question, is this run sort of what you're wanting to see?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fyZhvMLF8E&feature=player_embedded#t=463s

That was completely left stick, no right stick. I realize it's not the same shimmy like the Peterson video but just curious if it's along the lines of what you're hoping for.

Rudy
06-30-2011, 04:35 PM
That is exactly what I'm looking for. That was nice. I guess that means I have to just use the L-stick to pull off that type of move because I feel that it's impossible with the R-stick which was what I'm used to.

Now can you show me a truck move with a bigger back or a stiff arm that actually works?

gschwendt
06-30-2011, 04:38 PM
Now can you show me a truck move with a bigger back or a stiff arm that actually works?
If I come across one in my games, I'll certainly let you know.

ram29jackson
06-30-2011, 04:41 PM
Serious question, is this run sort of what you're wanting to see?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fyZhvMLF8E&feature=player_embedded#t=463s

That was completely left stick, no right stick. I realize it's not the same shimmy like the Peterson video but just curious if it's along the lines of what you're hoping for.

ah yes, another year, another gschwendt posts an Ark State video game video :up::check:

Koach Vonner
06-30-2011, 05:42 PM
I totally agree with Rudy.
Crap I just posted that in another forum I guess. I said that the juke move was totally absent. The only move I can use was the "spin".
Please address this community guys!!!

Sinister
06-30-2011, 06:42 PM
my son noticed it yesterday when we were playing I juked but it was weak. he was complaining that his guy couldn't do it. this should be a simple fix. I hope

Rudy
06-30-2011, 08:03 PM
The one thing I find interesting is that those four special moves for RB - spin, juke, stiff arm and truck are the four lowest variables in the overall rating for a RB (NCAA 11 anyways). Those four attributes only add 2 points each to your overall rating and that’s if you had a 100 rating. The difference between a 50 and 100 rating in any of those categories only changes your overall by one point.

RB Overall = -63.5600 + BTK*0.3944+SPD*0.3942+CAR*0.1981+ACC*0.1958+AWR*0. 1013+
BCV*0.0987+AGL*0.0961+CAT*0.0954+STR*0.0550+INJ*0. 0531+ELV*0.0244+
TRK*0.0234+SPM*0.0215+JKM*0.0185+SAR*0.0178.

Gotmadskillzson
07-01-2011, 02:31 AM
Ummm you sure about that Rudy ???? If you max out Break tackle or Truck rating, your over all going to go up by way more then just 2 points. I see it all the time when I edit rosters.

Rudy
07-01-2011, 06:26 AM
Ummm you sure about that Rudy ???? If you max out Break tackle or Truck rating, your over all going to go up by way more then just 2 points. I see it all the time when I edit rosters.

I'm very certain but break tackle is NOT one of those categories. Break tackle and speed are the two most influential ratings to a RB's overall rating (see the first line of the formula above). Every increase of 1 point to either speed or break tackle will basically add 0.40 to their overall. So boost a RB's break tackle or speed by 10 and you will see an increase of 4 to their overall rating. But trucking will do almost nothing. The most you will see is 2 points and that's if they started at 0. If you boost someone from 50 to 100 it would only add one point to their overall rating. Next time you edit a RB only touch the truck move (or spin, juke, stiff arm) and nothing else and you will see it.

I think the break tackle rating is over-used by EA and they shouldn't be giving little RBs high ratings in this area. It seems like a catch-all for a RB's ability to get away from a defender (juke, spin, truck, etc). They should be relying more on the special type moves like spin, juke, stiff arm and truck. If they did and the cpu RBs used the moves they were best at we might see more personality in the RBs in the game.

Sinister
07-01-2011, 08:23 AM
I'm very certain but break tackle is NOT one of those categories. Break tackle and speed are the two most influential ratings to a RB's overall rating (see the first line of the formula above). Every increase of 1 point to either speed or break tackle will basically add 0.40 to their overall. So boost a RB's break tackle or speed by 10 and you will see an increase of 4 to their overall rating. But trucking will do almost nothing. The most you will see is 2 points and that's if they started at 0. If you boost someone from 50 to 100 it would only add one point to their overall rating. Next time you edit a RB only touch the truck move (or spin, juke, stiff arm) and nothing else and you will see it.

I think the break tackle rating is over-used by EA and they shouldn't be giving little RBs high ratings in this area. It seems like a catch-all for a RB's ability to get away from a defender (juke, spin, truck, etc). They should be relying more on the special type moves like spin, juke, stiff arm and truck. If they did and the cpu RBs used the moves they were best at we might see more personality in the RBs in the game.

Rudy, I understand what your saying. The ratings should really dictate how well these moves are. Even when it was working in 11. I really never got the feeling that you could tell the difference rating wise of a player with high juke vs someone with low. Overall though they need to bring it back or tune how they need to. Lucky for us its bout two to three weeks before launch so hopefully this can get fixed launch day.

AustinWolv
07-01-2011, 11:22 AM
Rudy, the jukes you show with pro players are few and far between in college. Yes, there are jukes in college ball, but there aren't a high number of ankle-breakers like the game had in previous years. They should be there, but not like available on every play.

check it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi_OGLNsKAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAj9CiGMVE0&feature=related

Out of LMJ's 2010 highlights, there were like 4 jukes total shown.

Another player:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jjjdWl6V1M&feature=fvst

4, maybe 5, jukes.

oweb26
07-01-2011, 12:03 PM
I'm very certain but break tackle is NOT one of those categories. Break tackle and speed are the two most influential ratings to a RB's overall rating (see the first line of the formula above). Every increase of 1 point to either speed or break tackle will basically add 0.40 to their overall. So boost a RB's break tackle or speed by 10 and you will see an increase of 4 to their overall rating. But trucking will do almost nothing. The most you will see is 2 points and that's if they started at 0. If you boost someone from 50 to 100 it would only add one point to their overall rating. Next time you edit a RB only touch the truck move (or spin, juke, stiff arm) and nothing else and you will see it.

I think the break tackle rating is over-used by EA and they shouldn't be giving little RBs high ratings in this area. It seems like a catch-all for a RB's ability to get away from a defender (juke, spin, truck, etc). They should be relying more on the special type moves like spin, juke, stiff arm and truck. If they did and the cpu RBs used the moves they were best at we might see more personality in the RBs in the game.


Before I comment can I get some back history on the formula? Where did it come from? Is this confirmed as the formula used? Or did you just make it up. :)

morsdraconis
07-01-2011, 01:04 PM
Before I comment can I get some back history on the formula? Where did it come from? Is this confirmed as the formula used? Or did you just make it up. :)

It's most definitely the formula used. Someone (can't remember who) took the painstaking and painfully long amount of time to figure it out for either '10 or '11.

Pig Bomb
07-01-2011, 02:18 PM
i've always felt the juke and other moves were way over-done and not realistic...they seemed to enable average players to move like Barry Sanders

Rudy
07-01-2011, 04:02 PM
Before I comment can I get some back history on the formula? Where did it come from? Is this confirmed as the formula used? Or did you just make it up. :)

I calculated the formula using a regression analysis with a prospect database file. The computer tries to determine how the overall is calculated based on the attributes you test. There is a thread here on it and it was actually very quick. I figured out the formula for every position in a few hours. I believe I was able to predict the overall value of every position over 95% of the time. When I was off it was by only one point so it should be considered extremely reliable.

Rudy
07-01-2011, 05:31 PM
i've always felt the juke and other moves were way over-done and not realistic...they seemed to enable average players to move like Barry Sanders

I can agree with you to a point. But my problem is that the entire momentum/weight system of the game is flawed. Players don't have enough weight to them so a cpu LB or S can easily change directions to tackle you. If they had more weight so I could simply use a sharp one-cut up the field as the defenders weight carries him past me I could be happy. But they don't, so you have to resort to the jukes and other moves to break away.

I just want to know that when I get a player one on one with a defender in the open field that I will be able to make him miss a good part of the time. Most defenders 1-1 in open space are at a disadvantage. The r-stick juke move combined with the lack of player momentum in this game means nobody will be using the r-stick juke in this situation any more. I'll definitely miss it.

Kwizzy
07-01-2011, 06:25 PM
I agree, I would like to see players with the appropriate ratings be able to be more dynamic in the open field. I don't however want a return to everyone being able to make unrealistic moves. I definitely get your point though & have said as much in my feedback & will continue to do so.

jwallace0317
07-01-2011, 08:39 PM
I said this in another thread, and I'll say it here: jukes and spins were ridiculous in NCAA 11. Spins were greatly overpowered, and jukes were exaggerated. Unless you could be amazingly subtle with the right stick, most of the time triggering a juke meant an exaggerated sidestep, which effectively made jukes useless anywhere but in completely open field with a bad defender in pursuit. In reality, 90 percent of the "jukes" that backs use in real football are much more subtle, and they're usually seen when a back gets through a hole and is shifting away from linebackers. In the demo, jukes are toned down in exactly that way, and that's why I like the correction. If you have an explosive back, you should be skilled enough to pick up big yards with him without jukes and/or spins on every carry in a game...because, in real life, backs don't use those "special moves" on every carry.

Rudy
07-01-2011, 08:42 PM
In reality, 90 percent of the "jukes" that backs use in real football are much more subtle, and they're usually seen when a back gets through a hole and is shifting away from linebackers.

True. But in real life an over pursuing LB goes running right by as the RB uses his momentum against him and he misses the tackle. I don't think the current momentum system EA is using allows for that. The LB can quickly change direction on slight jukes and make the tackle.

JeffHCross
07-01-2011, 09:08 PM
Before I comment can I get some back history on the formula? Where did it come from? Is this confirmed as the formula used? Or did you just make it up. :)It's far from confirmed (for one thing, I'm fairly certain that the real formula doesn't start with -63), but Rudy did a very good job and I think he's pretty close, at least, at identifying the major influences. The exact numbers may not be right, but he's in the right ballpark.

The LB can quickly change direction on slight jukes and make the tackle.Maybe, maybe not. I think the elimination of suction is going to have an effect on this.

jwallace0317
07-01-2011, 09:37 PM
True. But in real life an over pursuing LB goes running right by as the RB uses his momentum against him and he misses the tackle. I don't think the current momentum system EA is using allows for that. The LB can quickly change direction on slight jukes and make the tackle.

In the games I've played with the demo so far, sometimes the LB makes the tackle, sometimes he doesn't. Or, sometimes he makes the tackle, but after I've picked up a few more yards because of the juke. Just my own experience using the juke so far. I think this is one of those areas where there will never be a consensus, because of personal preference and perception. And somehow EA has to try to reconcile the different opinions and factor them into one game that fits all, lol.

Rudy
07-02-2011, 05:23 AM
In the games I've played with the demo so far, sometimes the LB makes the tackle, sometimes he doesn't. Or, sometimes he makes the tackle, but after I've picked up a few more yards because of the juke. Just my own experience using the juke so far. I think this is one of those areas where there will never be a consensus, because of personal preference and perception. And somehow EA has to try to reconcile the different opinions and factor them into one game that fits all, lol.


Very true. We all have a different opinion on what we would like to see. At least I can still use a good juke move by learning how to use the L-stick better as Tommy's video in #2 showed it can still be done and that the defender does slide by (perhaps more than I give EA credit for :) ).

Rudy
07-02-2011, 05:34 AM
It's far from confirmed (for one thing, I'm fairly certain that the real formula doesn't start with -63), but Rudy did a very good job and I think he's pretty close, at least, at identifying the major influences. The exact numbers may not be right, but he's in the right ballpark.


I would bet the real formula starts at -63 or is extremely close to it (within less than a single point). The dev team probably decides on the weights for each rating they want to use and then just applies them to the attributes and sees what the overall rating is. If the recruit RBs end up rated 120 to 150 they probably use the -63 to simply slide the overall rating down to 57 to 87. It's just a simple correction at the end. If everyone wants lower ratings it's real simple for EA to drop everyone without even changing the ratings system. I had wondered if they would use a percentage adjustment to make that sort of correction but I wouldn't have gotten results this close if the basic formula was that different. I could try that approach in a non linear regression but I don't think its necessary and I'm on vacation all next week (didn't bring home my work laptop anyways).

Here is the original link: http://www.thegamingtailgate.com/forums/showthread.php?1793-JeffHCross-Project-1-How-is-OVR-determined&highlight=overall+rating (post #16 has the link to all the formulas). The formulas generated are not 100% accurate but when I can accurately predict 97 or 98% of the recruits EXACT overall rating and am only off by one point on the others (never two points) then that is a very tight ball park. Did you ever ask the EA guys about their formulas at the community day? I'd love to see an actual comparison.

CLW
07-02-2011, 07:48 AM
I tend to think that ALL of the moves: hurdle; spin; juke; stiff arm; truck; stop have ALWAYS been WAY overblown. The less powerful these moves are the better. Yes you can see a highlight video but that is ONE run out of 200 or so carries in a season. Moreover, the players being shown Peterson et al. are FREAKS and don't come around very often. I personally was TIRED of every speedy RB being the next Barry Sanders.

SmoothPancakes
07-02-2011, 09:30 AM
I tend to think that ALL of the moves: hurdle; spin; juke; stiff arm; truck; stop have ALWAYS been WAY overblown. The less powerful these moves are the better. Yes you can see a highlight video but that is ONE run out of 200 or so carries in a season. Moreover, the players being shown Peterson et al. are FREAKS and don't come around very often. I personally was TIRED of every speedy RB being the next Barry Sanders.

I agree with every word and sentence of this post. :nod:

AustinWolv
07-02-2011, 09:36 AM
I agree with every word and sentence of this post. :nod:

I sign my name here too!

gschwendt
07-02-2011, 10:00 AM
While I realize it's not exactly the same thing as what you're talking about, just wanted to point out more left-stick goodness, subsequently followed by a right-stick juke to get upfield.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7cteSun-pE&feature=player_detailpage#t=611s

AustinWolv
07-02-2011, 10:48 AM
Nice play, that looked good.

Lord Marshall X
07-02-2011, 10:17 PM
Losing the truck button last year was huge. The truck stick no longer exist.

Cipher 8
07-05-2011, 11:25 AM
I’m not sure why we have progressed to this point but it’s my belief that EA has effectively neutered almost all of the special RB moves we used to love.

To be honest I never really used many moves. I'm not the quickest twitch gamer so I rarely even utilized many of these moves, like juke, to full effectiveness.

In the first game I played on the demo though I pulled off a sick stiffarm and you don't want to know how many times I tried and failed in NCAA Football 11.

I'm fine with the changes, like I said, I usually just follow my blockers and not use too many jukes or stiffarms anyways. Plays happen too fast for me to react to.

AustinWolv
07-05-2011, 11:35 AM
I had a sweet LS stop and go move last night on a kick return following a broken tackle that got me another 20 yards. The running looks more realistic than every player having the Barry Sanders super-jumpcut like the old RS juke stuff. There was only one Barry Sanders for a reason.

Cipher 8
07-05-2011, 12:01 PM
There was only one Barry Sanders for a reason.

Actually there was, or is, two ;) http://youtu.be/wP4SVVTCKT4

AustinWolv
07-05-2011, 01:53 PM
Actually there was, or is, two ;) http://youtu.be/wP4SVVTCKT4

He isn't Barry Sanders. Different kind of runner and thus Jr. ;)

Rudy
07-05-2011, 02:59 PM
He isn't Barry Sanders. Different kind of runner and thus Jr. ;)

I've heard his kid talk before and he's nowhere near as humble as Barry Sanders and nowhere near as quick imo. I'm not sure we've seen anyone that quick since he retired. Dexter McCluster was awfully quick and showed terrific moves in the open field but he didn't have the lower body strength or speed of Barry. McCluster in that bowl game against Tennessee was awesome.

souljahbill
07-05-2011, 05:08 PM
While I realize it's not exactly the same thing as what you're talking about, just wanted to point out more left-stick goodness, subsequently followed by a right-stick juke to get upfield.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7cteSun-pE&feature=player_detailpage#t=611s

LMAO at the "You Suck" message CLW sent (8:34 mark).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Rudy
07-05-2011, 05:20 PM
I will say that if a site like TGT has a vote of 10-7 to bring back the bigger juke (and other moves) what do you think the more casual and younger fan will want? I think this design decision has the potential to be viewed quite negatively.

SmoothPancakes
07-05-2011, 07:02 PM
I will say that if a site like TGT has a vote of 10-7 to bring back the bigger juke (and other moves) what do you think the more casual and younger fan will want? I think this design decision has the potential to be viewed quite negatively.

I'm sorry, but I hope to god they never bring it back. I'm sick as hell of every f@#$ing running back in the game juking and spinning and everything else like f'ing Barry Sanders. It was stupid as hell and overpowered as all hell. I hope EA grows some goddamn balls and leaves it exactly how it is now instead of being a bunch of pussies and collapsing and giving in to the crying of some people.

xMrHitStickx904
07-05-2011, 07:03 PM
you can still juke, but you have to use both sticks, it actually takes skill to use now.

AustinWolv
07-05-2011, 08:42 PM
I will say that if a site like TGT has a vote of 10-7 to bring back the bigger juke (and other moves) what do you think the more casual and younger fan will want? I think this design decision has the potential to be viewed quite negatively.

Well hell, might as well just turn the series into a Blitz-style game then to appease the kiddies, although they'll likely be screaming into their headsets and jizzing all over themselves when the new CoD hits the shelves so they won't be playing NCAA as long as actual football gamers anyway.............

CLW
07-05-2011, 08:45 PM
LMAO at the "You Suck" message CLW sent (8:34 mark).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

LOL i vividly remember sending that message on PSN. i had just gotten done unboxing/unloading and FINALLY got some cable/net. i fire up the ps3 to download the demo and what do i see 5 of my psn buddies ALL online and ALL playing the retail 12. :smh:

Rudy
07-05-2011, 08:48 PM
Well hell, might as well just turn the series into a Blitz-style game then to appease the kiddies, although they'll likely be screaming into their headsets and jizzing all over themselves when the new CoD hits the shelves so they won't be playing NCAA as long as actual football gamers anyway.............

I think they could have made the r-stick juke more reliant on ratings but part of the problem is that the juke does exist still. Just not on the r-stick which makes it more difficult to pull off. As long as I can make guys miss in the open field I will be OK. But for those that struggle they will get ticked. I do think having an option for sim vs. arcade where special moves are exaggerated would be a good thing.

gschwendt
07-05-2011, 11:45 PM
Two different angles of a run from my latest game
http://www.easports.com/media/play/video/80205661
http://www.easports.com/media/play/video/80205557
One of those defenders is user controlled, the other is obviously CPU controlled... not certain which is which.

There's also another run from this same game that turned out really nice... full game should be up overnight tomorrow.

xGRIDIRONxGURUx
07-06-2011, 07:47 PM
that shiftiness on the interception is about the most realistic ive seen in NCAA any version... stepped inside blockers and then exploded outside up the sidelines...

i still think that stop and go was just NASTY #1 because it looked sick #2 because it was vs OB lol

i think that covers the spectrum of "juke" for NCAA retail and what it SHOULD BE... subtle moves for the every down runner and then that occasional "holy crap" moment...

"E"

gschwendt
07-06-2011, 08:04 PM
i still think that stop and go was just NASTY #1 because it looked sick #2 because it was vs OB lol

Actually that one was against jb

SmoothPancakes
07-06-2011, 08:53 PM
that shiftiness on the interception is about the most realistic ive seen in NCAA any version... stepped inside blockers and then exploded outside up the sidelines...

i still think that stop and go was just NASTY #1 because it looked sick #2 because it was vs OB lol

i think that covers the spectrum of "juke" for NCAA retail and what it SHOULD BE... subtle moves for the every down runner and then that occasional "holy crap" moment...

"E"

Amen! I'm sick all to hell of these 65 and 70 and 75 OVR RBs being able to pull off Barry Sanders jukes every single time they run the ball. People complain and bitch and moan about how this game isn't anywhere near sim or realistic with the zone or various aspects of the defense, but then when it comes to crap like this where even the most pathetic RB in the game could juke the hell out anyone and everyone, they suddenly go quiet.

morsdraconis
07-06-2011, 08:54 PM
Actually, I kinda have a problem with the immediate speed garnered from the stop and go like that. WR#6's speed and acceleration (92/88) really aren't conducive with someone that has the ability to stop on a dime like that and immediately get back to top speed. Sure, the dude is pretty fast, but I always thought that elite speed should be required for that type of play.

Rudy
07-06-2011, 08:56 PM
Amen! I'm sick all to hell of these 65 and 70 and 75 OVR RBs being able to pull off Barry Sanders jukes every single time they run the ball. People complain and bitch and moan about how this game isn't anywhere near sim or realistic with the zone or various aspects of the defense, but then when it comes to crap like this where even the most pathetic RB in the game could juke the hell out anyone and everyone, they suddenly go quiet.

Stop acting so holier than everyone else. We all know how you feel but your ranting against people with an opposing viewpoint is starting to go overboard. I'm fine that you disagree but constantly calling out posters isn't cool in my book. The fact that more people have voted yes does indicate people aren't happy.

SmoothPancakes
07-06-2011, 09:08 PM
Stop acting so holier than everyone else. We all know how you feel but your ranting against people with an opposing viewpoint is nearing jerk status. I'm fine that you disagree but constantly calling out posters isn't cool in my book.

Alright, honestly, who am I calling out? I'm not talking about anyone by name, and I'm not even referring to you or someone else on this site. Unless I specifically mention "people on this site" or mention someone by name, I'm referring to the NCAA community as a whole, people from OS, people from "that other site", people from any gaming forum on the internet.

Christ, apparently I can't use what people around the internet (is that better for you?) are saying in my argument, or else I'm a jerk and calling people out. Fine, fuck it, every post I make from now on will be about "OMG! How wonderful this game is! Not a single problem! I just love it!" Better for you? :rolleyes:

gschwendt
07-06-2011, 09:13 PM
Alright... easy guys. Difference of opinions and we know about opinions right? Everybody is a smelly asshole.

Wait, what was that analogy again?

Rudy
07-06-2011, 09:20 PM
I shouldn't have posted until after I calmed down but I'm just annoyed that their is this assumption that complainers on message boards have an agenda rather than just make an honest critical post. OShas gone down the toilet the last 2 years because critical posts are shouted down too vigorously and mods ban dissenters to protect developer relationships. The fact my laptop is dead and it's takingforever to type this on iPod is also pissing me off. Sorry. Need to take a break.

morsdraconis
07-06-2011, 09:24 PM
"Juking" is lame as shit anyway. Be a man and plow through the motherfucker, work your legs, and keep on truckin'.

Rudy
07-06-2011, 09:29 PM
"Juking" is lame as shit anyway. Be a man and plow through the motherfucker, work your legs, and keep on truckin'.

But I can'ttruck guys like I could either. It all depends on my back. Sometime I like the John Clay type of back and some times I like the LaM James type of back.

SmoothPancakes
07-06-2011, 09:51 PM
I shouldn't have posted until after I calmed down but I'm just annoyed that their is this assumption that complainers on message boards have an agenda rather than just make an honest critical post. OShas gone down the toilet the last 2 years because critical posts are shouted down too vigorously and mods ban dissenters to protect developer relationships. The fact my laptop is dead and it's takingforever to type this on iPod is also pissing me off. Sorry. Need to take a break.

Sorry as well Rudy. Now that I have taken the past 30-40 minutes to look at posts elsewhere in the forum and far away from the NCAA section (even going so far as to completely collapse the NCAA section so none of the forums in it showed up, I'm more settled. At the time, especially right after G made his post, I was honestly worked up enough that I was seconds away from posting in here essentially saying to hell with it, I'm done, that I wasn't posting in this NCAA portion of the forum ever again, that I was just going to stay in the Tiger Woods, Video Games, Off-topic, and Online Dynasty portions of the forum for as long as I was a member here.

I understand where you're coming from man, and I realize I probably could word some of my stuff a little better, but I just want you to realize that when I say stuff like up above, I honestly am not calling anyone out from this forum, at least that's not my intention. I'm just using what I see people saying on other forums and from around various video game and NCAA related sites as stuff to try and get my point across. If I honestly intended to call someone out on this forum, I'd step up and would actually say their name so they know I'm referring specifically to them and if they want, we can have a full discussion about it, not just go the pussy route and use the generalizations like I use when talking about just various things I've seen around the internet on topics like this.

Take for instance the "bitching and moaning about the defense and zones". You can go on literally any website related for video games with even so much as a single thread about NCAA located somewhere on it and you'll see a bunch of people complaining about zones. But I have seen considerably less comments around the internet about how overpowered the jukes and other RB moves seem, which in my honest opinion, they really are. So that's where I was coming from. Anywhere on the internet, it's all zones, defense, the CPU runs your routes better than your WR", complaining about how it's not sim and how it's nothing like real football, but hardly any mentions about jukes and the RB moves, almost like they prefer it that way, even though it isn't even remotely sim, again, in my honest opinion. Now I will admit, maybe I'm just assuming a bunch and putting words on those various peoples mouths when I say that and that they really do have a problem with the RB moves being seemingly overpowered, just defense is their issue they are putting all their attention towards currently.

And apologies about typing up my posts in such a way that I'm coming across almost assholish when replying to critical posts and to stuff with a complete opposite viewpoint than mine. That's just sort of the way I've always been, even in real life. When I start up with my opinion about something, I've been one to sort of come across hot and heavy-handed while trying to make my point known and clear. Clearly, I've been getting that way a little bit too easily and too much lately. I've probably made more than a couple posts like that today, which is unfortunate. Hell, I may still go ahead and sort of self-ban myself from the entire NCAA Football portion of the forum through at least release day next Tuesday. Certainly wouldn't hurt anything, and I wouldn't be surprised if some people in the end would be glad about it. I'm not referring to you Rudy, but there have been some people I've been a bit assholish to today that probably would be quite happy to see me not posting anymore in this area for a long time.

AustinWolv
07-06-2011, 11:37 PM
The fact that more people have voted yes does indicate people aren't happy.
Hey Rudy, 50/50 now. ;)

jaymo76
07-07-2011, 12:13 AM
I shouldn't have posted until after I calmed down but I'm just annoyed that their is this assumption that complainers on message boards have an agenda rather than just make an honest critical post. OShas gone down the toilet the last 2 years because critical posts are shouted down too vigorously and mods ban dissenters to protect developer relationships. The fact my laptop is dead and it's takingforever to type this on iPod is also pissing me off. Sorry. Need to take a break.

Totally off topic but I feel I must comment... what has happened to OS.... and... NCAASTRATEGIES.... seriously??? I don't post on either of those forums anymore. It's like the Ahole fringe has somehow taken over and any real discussion is replaced in favour of name calling and slander. Please GAMING TAILGATE, never come to that or else I will have nowhere to post...

I digress.... On the juke topic... I am not great on the R stick so I'm not the best judge but watching a 3rd string RB juke his way to a 50+ yard TD drives me nuts. To the same extent, the juke on the demo may be dumbed down just a little too much

OMRebel
07-07-2011, 12:41 AM
I really like the current juke a lot. Most of the time, you'll get a small to medium "cut" type juke, but occasionally you'll still get the big one that breaks the defenders ankles. I just had a sick juke with Trent Richardson. I got around the corner and just had FSU's safety in my way. I hit the right stick and his momentum carried him 5 yards past me. It was exactly what you were looking for Rudy.

Jayrah
07-07-2011, 05:03 AM
I must say I like the new feel of it. The major thing to adjust to though is not that the rb is "neutered", but rather that the rb continues his movement up the field with the juke and defenders no longer fall unrealistically and aimlessly into a "juked out" animation which leaves them physically able to rub you but do nothing about it. The anticipation factor and set up comes into play finally. You can't just do it last second in closed space anymore which is GREAT imo. We're not used to having to set up runs, we're used to juking our way out, so we say that the rb is neutered. But he's not, he's just finally reacting the way an rb should react based on physical limitations. And momentum DOES come into play....quite a bit actually by what I've played demo-wise and seen gameplay-wise. Still a few instances where it could certainly be improved, but overall I've been very impressed with what I've seen.

Broke a demo dude's ankles on a blow-by that looked spectacular because I had just hit space and the rb made a quick shoulder shimmy and cut left but never stopped going up the field.... GONE! Was the most incredible single moment of my short 12 demo career! On the other hand CPU LaMichael and Richardson had some stop and go shimmys that left my dude strapless and went 50+ for 6. Cpu Rich actually followed blockers through a hole, shook inside, bounced off a blocker and then spun back outside and avoided the last guy and it was off to the races. Though it was against me I enjoyed the run very much and it was everything and anything you would want out of a ball carrier.

Jayrah
07-07-2011, 05:05 AM
I really like the current juke a lot. Most of the time, you'll get a small to medium "cut" type juke, but occasionally you'll still get the big one that breaks the defenders ankles. I just had a sick juke with Trent Richardson. I got around the corner and just had FSU's safety in my way. I hit the right stick and his momentum carried him 5 yards past me. It was exactly what you were looking for Rudy.

Stop momentum definitely looks good to me. It was still a little short last year, but when you run by a ball carrier this year, you leave the picture.

Rudy
07-07-2011, 05:14 AM
No hard feelings Smoothpancakes. I over reacted and am sorry as well. I guess both of us were in a bit of a bad mood yesterday but it also shows we can have an argument, apologize and move on. Text doesn't always let you know how the other person really feels. This stupid iPod typing is still driving me nuts though. Cmon ups!

Unfortunately the poll has turned against me lol! I just hope that my l-stick moves improve so I can still defeat a defender in open space. Not everyone has tommy's moves.

Rudy
07-07-2011, 05:15 AM
Stop momentum definitely looks good to me. It was still a little short last year, but when you run by a ball carrier this year, you leave the picture.

No question that looks good in the videos.

Cipher 8
07-07-2011, 12:01 PM
I also want to add playing the demo when it first came out I had a WR catch the ball in the middle of the field, both my corner and safety converged to make the tackle but somehow when all three met the receiver spun and broke out both my guys fell to the ground and he continued to run for the touchdown. I was like :whoa:...

The closest play I can think of that looked like what happened is this... (Sorry bout the shitty background music in advance)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvVLnD8JdAw


It was right before halftime too.

I'll never be able to do that because I'm cautious. When I know a hit is coming I would rather hold down RB to cover up the ball and lean forward so I have a chance to go through them but I rarely ever juke. I sometimes spin and truck fairly often as my runningback but hardly ever did I have the kind of quick twitch stick skills to juke out defender after defender. Mainly I just follow my blockers and use good field vision. To be honest I don't break out too many long plays at all. I usually just drive down the field systematically. Which goes into my scoring struggles because as we all know defenses play better in the redzone usually and for the most part back shoulder fade and jump balls never were NCAA's or any football games strong suit.

umhester04
07-07-2011, 01:22 PM
Observe the cuts at :37 and :39..this is all I what I want to see the elite guys be able to do.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qeAqplXdLQ

AustinWolv
07-07-2011, 02:17 PM
The closest play I can think of that looked like what happened is this... (Sorry bout the shitty background music in advance)
Harvin's little catch is nothing compared to this -
at 1:40
at 2:53
Lots of great cuts all over
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUVFZYYzHPU

Coach Kernzy
07-07-2011, 02:19 PM
Harvin's little catch is nothing compared to this -
at 1:40
at 2:53
Lots of great cuts all over
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUVFZYYzHPU

Ah the memories, favorite player ever. I must have hundreds of dollars in football cards of him in the attic and basement. Doubt there will ever be another like him.

Cipher 8
07-07-2011, 08:35 PM
Harvin's little catch is nothing compared to this -
at 1:40
at 2:53
Lots of great cuts all over
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUVFZYYzHPU
That was it! that was the animation I had happen, the one at 2:53 in the video... yeah Barry was a beast!

Sinister
07-14-2011, 01:25 PM
Hey rudy if you want more shiftiness to your running game. tune your rb ability for human to 60. not too much not too little

Rudy
07-14-2011, 04:16 PM
Hey rudy if you want more shiftiness to your running game. tune your rb ability for human to 60. not too much not too little

I will consider this. The only problem with it is that it also boosts the RB's speed and that can lead to long runs that shouldn't happen. I'm not sure what to do just yet.

AustinWolv
07-14-2011, 04:20 PM
You should go play NFL Blitz or NFL Tour if you want magic moves. ;)

Rushed for over 200 yards last night with Vincent Smith on Heisman default. Really impressed with Heisman default gameplay this year.

Rudy
07-31-2011, 06:16 AM
Well this area still bothers me. I know others like it but I think a simple solution is to split the RBA slider into two separate sliders - one for RB special moves and the other for RB speed. The problem with raising RBA right now is that it also makes the RB faster and if you raise it too much you will see a slow RB outrunning much faster defenders. Same goes if you lower it too much - fast RBs suddenly get caught by slow defenders. I've got my human RBA at 55 but I'm going to go to 60 or even 65 to see if it helps me shake a defender in the open field. Right now, even with a quick guy like Vincent Smith, it's an automatic tackle for the cpu and it frustrates me. I really, really miss my r-stick juke. :(

Rudy
07-31-2011, 06:50 AM
Hey rudy if you want more shiftiness to your running game. tune your rb ability for human to 60. not too much not too little

I just went in to practice mode and played around with RBA. I don't think it has any effect at all on the r-stick juke. I just did an offence only practice and just ran upfield hitting the r-stick juke and it simply sucks, even with RBA at 100. I used both Vincent Smith and Denard. It seems like RBA only makes RBs faster and doesn't affect the juke at all.

jaymo76
07-31-2011, 11:17 AM
Rudy, it seems to me that more and more sublte moves to the L-STICK have basically removed the impact of the R-STICK. I am surprised at how much movement you get simply from L. Now that being said, I am not doing a lot of jukes with R because they're not powerful. The spin however of the R seems to work very well.

umhester04
07-31-2011, 12:11 PM
I haven't tried this yet, but maybe messing with the TACKLE rating for the CPU would help this a little.

Going along with the post above me, I also use the L Stick now instead of the right stick. Just a subtle movement to make it look like a cut that I would normally use with the R Stick, I just shift the position of the L Stick upfield and it is way more effective than using the R Stick. I now only use the R Stick juke for a "cut" when I need to make a drastic cut upfield, usually when I am getting a toss to the outside and want to make a hard cut upfield. I have to do this because sometimes if you try this with the left stick the runningback will do a stupid pause animation that lasts for like 3 seconds and always results in a sack.

cjg225
07-31-2011, 02:33 PM
I haven't tried this yet, but maybe messing with the TACKLE rating for the CPU would help this a little.

Going along with the post above me, I also use the L Stick now instead of the right stick. Just a subtle movement to make it look like a cut that I would normally use with the R Stick, I just shift the position of the L Stick upfield and it is way more effective than using the R Stick. I now only use the R Stick juke for a "cut" when I need to make a drastic cut upfield, usually when I am getting a toss to the outside and want to make a hard cut upfield. I have to do this because sometimes if you try this with the left stick the runningback will do a stupid pause animation that lasts for like 3 seconds and always results in a sack.
I agree with this. I have noticed recently that using the L-Stick creates better moves than messing with the R-stick. Silas Redd (PSU's runningback) has left some defenders in the dust by taping the L-stick to the side when clearing the hole. When I use the R-stick, the ballcarrier tends to do a little shimy, but that doesn't seem to fool the defender. Conversely, the L-stick makes a nice side-step. I don't think it's too over-powered. It doesn't always work, but when it does, it can leave a defender grasping at air.

hitman625
08-01-2011, 07:02 PM
I really miss the shiftiness of quicker RB's, but I have noticed the power of "power" RB's. I have trucked many a DB's and love the feeling of just stepping over them for the TD

jaymo76
08-01-2011, 11:42 PM
I really miss the shiftiness of quicker RB's, but I have noticed the power of "power" RB's. I have trucked many a DB's and love the feeling of just stepping over them for the TD

Interesting... I am quite the opposite as I feel that the trucking is NOT powerful enough this year.

hitman625
08-02-2011, 01:27 PM
Interesting... I am quite the opposite as I feel that the trucking is NOT powerful enough this year.

The one thing I don't like with trucking...is the animation associated with it. I trucked a DB in the open field and it took so long for him to step over him and regain speed that I ended up getting caught

AustinWolv
08-02-2011, 01:45 PM
I'm not sure how that should be surprising.....seems pretty realistic that a guy would lose some of his forward speed during the process of running someone over and thus getting run down by someone running full speed from behind.

hitman625
08-02-2011, 02:02 PM
I'm not sure how that should be surprising.....seems pretty realistic that a guy would lose some of his forward speed during the process of running someone over and thus getting run down by someone running full speed from behind.

Very true...I guess I was just mad that I got caught

xMrHitStickx904
08-02-2011, 02:23 PM
I don't know if anybody has posted this, but you need to use BOTH sticks to juke effectively, it was too easy on PS2 to just use the bumpers, and even then you had to use both to make it more effective.

AustinWolv
08-02-2011, 02:34 PM
Very true...I guess I was just mad that I got caught

Always thought this was a fun example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrsnHzuriMQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=243s
http://multimedia.detnews.com/pix/sports/2007/um/09152007_umnotredame/2007-0915-jg-UMvND-1225.jpg

Rudy
08-02-2011, 03:54 PM
I don't know if anybody has posted this, but you need to use BOTH sticks to juke effectively, it was too easy on PS2 to just use the bumpers, and even then you had to use both to make it more effective.

If I have to use both then I'm screwed. I'm not great on the sticks.

I just want to use the r-stick to juke a guy like Vincent Smith in the first play of this video (catch and juke to score). I could do this last year but I can't pull this off this year. The defender loses all his speed and balance.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDrKwiWAEQ8

umhester04
08-03-2011, 12:47 PM
I don't know if anybody has posted this, but you need to use BOTH sticks to juke effectively, it was too easy on PS2 to just use the bumpers, and even then you had to use both to make it more effective.


Can you elaborate more?

kindella2
08-04-2011, 02:48 PM
I used it last year when the run game and blocking were different. Now i dont even need it...maybe if my RB was slower but if you have a fast back you can out run most of the DBs on this game.

xMrHitStickx904
08-04-2011, 05:13 PM
Can you elaborate more?


yeah sure. what I do is, when I'm making cuts, I never use sprint or auto sprint. It's easier to cut through the holes when you are patient and not using sprint. Secondly, when I'm in the open field and I have a one on one matchup, I start jogging. This works best with receivers and runningbacks that have great agility, that allows them to make more effective cuts. So for instance, with L. James at Oregon, sometimes I don't even attempt to juke, I just make a sharp cut and his agility and acceleration is what allows him to speed past guys. As far as the left and right stick juke goes, you can duplicate that move just like in the video Rudy posted, by flicking the right stick left, then quickly back right and then use the left stick to finish the cut. sometimes, I use the left stick first to make a quick cut, then use the combination of the right stick to make a powerful cut. But the key is to practice it, and not use sprint. I'll upload a video from my Droid showing the animation.

xMrHitStickx904
08-04-2011, 05:50 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhHtgoVnrsA&feature=channel_video_title

Left stick cuts.

morsdraconis
08-04-2011, 05:52 PM
Video no workie.

xMrHitStickx904
08-04-2011, 05:52 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3g4OEosi74&feature=channel_video_title

the combination of the right and left stick together, each little stutter can be controlled.

Rudy
08-04-2011, 06:56 PM
The second video looked better but I didn't see that move juke out a guy one on one in the open field The first video is just a stop and head upfield kind of move - not the kick move like the real Vincent Smith real video. I'm talking a RB running straight at the safety and a quick juke shakes his jock strap and he's gone. Take a look at a few NCAA 11 videos. I should note that the cpu RBA is either at 65 or 70 here so the juke is exagerated but raising the RBA slider this year doesn't seem to do anything to the juke. Maybe that was the same in NCAA 11, not sure. But the r-stick juke was far, far more effective last year.

Of course everyone is going to have a different opinion on how realistic it is, how fun it is, etc between the jukes of 11 vs 12. But wouldn't it be great if they had a separate slider for RB special moves where we could choose how effective jukes, spins, stiff arms and trucks are? Right now I dislike how RBA is linked to both moves AND speed. Too often I raise the cpu RBA to get them more effective but then slower backs start running away from my DBs.

I think the game could have done a better job of differentiating the moves between the ratings of the players. It seems as though there is just one animation for each move and maybe the quickness is just slowed down/sped up depending on your ratings. It would be better to have separate animations for quick players much like bigger players trucking guys and stiff arming people.

Anyways, two runs by the cpu in NCAA 11 (rba at 65 or 70. Small chance it was at 75 but unlikely).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNswt4npZeY


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99S3Q3GyOgw

This was me on a kick return. Human RBA 50.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAQxDdGuCr0

I believe this was me using John Clay to stiff arm someone. This was nice. Can't really say if stiff arm is much different this year or not as I haven't used many thumpers.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPY70qLCcDY

umhester04
08-05-2011, 12:31 AM
Thanks MRHITSTICK, and Rudy I agree with you but only partially. The juke did seem to work better in 11, however I absolutely hated the canned animation of them falling and you juking passed them in last years game because it just felt like i got sucked into the animation. Looking back at that video on youtube called "the vision is real" (using ncaa 06) it just reminded me of how much fun it was to get in the open field in that game and set up defenders for a juke. I feel that its not the same in this years game because of the momentum system.

It seemed in 06 the defense actually HAD momentum, its hard to explain what I mean by this but basically in this years game it seems as though the defense reacts to your change of direction the millisecond that you put the left stick in a different direction AND without any momentum whatsoever (and the ballcarrier is hindered by this because the user DOES have to go by the momentum system. However in 06 it seemed as though the cpu defense actually went with the same momentum system that the user had, which in turn made out for more realistic changes of direction and actually being able to set up defenders to juke them out of their shoes. I wish we still had the same momentum/running system as we did back then...

umhester04
08-05-2011, 01:07 AM
Not sure where I should post this but another thing that bothers me about the run game is that in real life on toss sweep plays the whole line runs out to the sidelines blocking, not just 2 people. Just something I would like to see fixed but I doubt they will fix this until they have a new engine and even still it would be a reach.

ram29jackson
08-05-2011, 01:44 AM
the juke may have worked better in 11, but it looked like crap. It appears more realistic now and quicker, not like some matrix ballerina move lol and works fine

Rudy
08-05-2011, 05:09 AM
It seemed in 06 the defense actually HAD momentum, its hard to explain what I mean by this but basically in this years game it seems as though the defense reacts to your change of direction the millisecond that you put the left stick in a different direction AND without any momentum whatsoever (and the ballcarrier is hindered by this because the user DOES have to go by the momentum system. However in 06 it seemed as though the cpu defense actually went with the same momentum system that the user had, which in turn made out for more realistic changes of direction and actually being able to set up defenders to juke them out of their shoes. I wish we still had the same momentum/running system as we did back then...

I would love this too. I really want more momentum in the game. The current juke move would work better IF defenders couldn't change directions so quickly. But they seem to mirror my moves too easily.

mundo
08-06-2011, 08:50 AM
It's amazing how unrealistic those '11 moves look after playing on '12.

AustinWolv
08-06-2011, 10:35 AM
It's amazing how unrealistic those '11 moves look after playing on '12.

+1

Jayrah
08-08-2011, 11:33 AM
+2

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk

Sinister
08-08-2011, 01:28 PM
I've have pretty good success using the right stick, you have to be dilberate with it. I had a run on a sweep and used the right stick to cut back and take off for twenty yards. I'll see if its on my highlights it was for an OD so it may or may not have taken.

Sinister
08-08-2011, 01:29 PM
actually it was my game against cdj he saw it.

PeteyKirch
08-08-2011, 02:34 PM
I find it funny that the best jukes I've done so far, have come with players that aren't the most talented when it comes to lateral movements. I.E 6'6 Brandon Coleman who runs like a gazelle but doesn't have the most loose hips.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFX-cRf3jAc

I did have this nice subtle juke with Jeremy Deering that was a slight cutback.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPXSNItvNPU

majesty95
08-26-2011, 02:31 AM
Rudy, those '11 jukes are literally carrying the back three yards to either direction. In no way, shape or form are those realistic and I, for one, am extremely pleased they are gone.

Rudy
08-26-2011, 05:18 AM
Rudy, those '11 jukes are literally carrying the back three yards to either direction. In no way, shape or form are those realistic and I, for one, am extremely pleased they are gone.

I can agree with those being unrealistic but you almost have to have it that way since defenders have no momentum in this game. They change directions automatically and accelerate to top speed quickly. IF EA had real player weight, momentum and acceleration the toned down jukes would work but they don't. I can't shake anyone in NCAA 12 and it's very frustrating for me.

Everyone can have their own opinion. I happen to be the only one voicing the one side of this argument although the poll clearly shows many people feel the same way. For me this has really hurt my enjoyment of the running game. And the super LBs with improved zone are pissing me off in the passing game. Just too many things are bothering me this year which is why I'm selling NCAA 12 and getting Madden 12 instead. For those that prefer NCAA and think this area is fine that's great but I'm done with this series for awhile. I need to see a big improvement next year and I hope I'm smart enough to rent first.

ram29jackson
08-26-2011, 04:40 PM
the old juke was too cartoony, they are onn the right track now...and using circle button and the left stick(ps3) and x for stiff arm theres more ways to elude defenders that are subtle and have a good amount of animations although alot of times the evade animations can be slow and you end up getting tackled by someone else