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umhester04
06-12-2011, 04:37 PM
This thread was posted by someone over at Operation Sports and I thought I would bring it over here because I know there are a few guys here that have had extensive playtime with the game. We are wondering if this psychic playcalling is OUT of the game or at least toned down. Psychic playcalling is basically the defense knowing what your calling on offense (ex: I call a 4 wide spread dive play and the cpu defense comes out in base 4-3, thus negating the point of a spread and giving you an easy opportunity to audible out and get a linebacker on a slot reciever EVERY TIME.) Any help is appreciated.

Jig
06-12-2011, 05:12 PM
That and the psychic coverage, like when a DB makes the cut on your route before your WR even thinks about it. Priceless. I still loved the game tho.

Pig Bomb
06-12-2011, 06:21 PM
This thread was posted by someone over at Operation Sports and I thought I would bring it over here because I know there are a few guys here that have had extensive playtime with the game. We are wondering if this psychic playcalling is OUT of the game or at least toned down. Psychic playcalling is basically the defense knowing what your calling on offense (ex: I call a 4 wide spread dive play and the cpu defense comes out in base 4-3, thus negating the point of a spread and giving you an easy opportunity to audible out and get a linebacker on a slot reciever EVERY TIME.) Any help is appreciated.

before this year I said I was not going to play NCAA anymore if they keep the AI running this BS defense....it requires me to house-rule a bunch of stuff as to not take advantage of the AI "knowing" if I am running or passing

however EA have done so much other sweet stuff to the game I plan on playing it even if the AI still knows if I am passing or running and I have in fact preordered the game...
if i am forced to make some house rules again then so be it...hopefully it won't kill the game for me


fotunately we have already seen that the psychic DB coverage is gone - so thats a plus

illwill10
06-12-2011, 06:33 PM
before this year I said I was not going to play NCAA anymore if they keep the AI running this BS defense....it requires me to house-rule a bunch of stuff as to not take advantage of the AI "knowing" if I am running or passing

however EA have done so much other sweet stuff to the game I plan on playing it even if the AI still knows if I am passing or running and I have in fact preordered the game...
if i am forced to make some house rules again then so be it...hopefully it won't kill the game for me


fotunately we have already seen that the psychic DB coverage is gone - so thats a plus

I hated it, but I can deal with it though. In Dynasty I would just have to audible alot.
But this will kill the fun in RTG though, Especially as a RB. Last Year it was hard because defense knew when you would run. But it has Custom Quarter Lengths, I could deal with it

JeffHCross
06-12-2011, 09:45 PM
(ex: I call a 4 wide spread dive play and the cpu defense comes out in base 4-3, thus negating the point of a spreadGo into that same 4-wide and call nothing but pass plays. See how many times the defense inexplicably comes out in a 4-3 anyway. It's more noticeable when it's "psychic" (especially on audibles), but I think this is much more of a coincidence then we give it credit for. I've seen the CPU call 4-3 against 4-wide pass plays. I've seen them call 4-3 against 4-wide run plays. I've even seen them call dime against 4-wide run plays.

I've also sat there and called the same audible 5 times, and seen the defense run around like chicken with their heads cut off, making adjustments. If they "knew" my play call, they would change once and never again. And they would always change the first time. But neither is true.

Note, this is all NCAA 11. The "psychic" man coverage is gone, but I can't say one way or another about our perceptions of "psychic" defensive calls. I had bigger fish to fry, and not enough time (there's never enough time, is there?) :) And even with as much time as we did get, it's still a drop in the bucket compared to what I've seen on 10 and 11, so comparisons are difficult when you get into a detail like this.

umhester04
06-12-2011, 11:18 PM
Go into that same 4-wide and call nothing but pass plays. See how many times the defense inexplicably comes out in a 4-3 anyway. It's more noticeable when it's "psychic" (especially on audibles), but I think this is much more of a coincidence then we give it credit for. I've seen the CPU call 4-3 against 4-wide pass plays. I've seen them call 4-3 against 4-wide run plays. I've even seen them call dime against 4-wide run plays.

I've also sat there and called the same audible 5 times, and seen the defense run around like chicken with their heads cut off, making adjustments. If they "knew" my play call, they would change once and never again. And they would always change the first time. But neither is true.

Note, this is all NCAA 11. The "psychic" man coverage is gone, but I can't say one way or another about our perceptions of "psychic" defensive calls. I had bigger fish to fry, and not enough time (there's never enough time, is there?) :) And even with as much time as we did get, it's still a drop in the bucket compared to what I've seen on 10 and 11, so comparisons are difficult when you get into a detail like this.


Thanks man thats all I was really askin for was just any insight at all. Thanks alot

Rudy
06-13-2011, 04:57 AM
Go into that same 4-wide and call nothing but pass plays. See how many times the defense inexplicably comes out in a 4-3 anyway. It's more noticeable when it's "psychic" (especially on audibles), but I think this is much more of a coincidence then we give it credit for. I've seen the CPU call 4-3 against 4-wide pass plays. I've seen them call 4-3 against 4-wide run plays. I've even seen them call dime against 4-wide run plays.

I've also sat there and called the same audible 5 times, and seen the defense run around like chicken with their heads cut off, making adjustments. If they "knew" my play call, they would change once and never again. And they would always change the first time. But neither is true.

Note, this is all NCAA 11. The "psychic" man coverage is gone, but I can't say one way or another about our perceptions of "psychic" defensive calls. I had bigger fish to fry, and not enough time (there's never enough time, is there?) :) And even with as much time as we did get, it's still a drop in the bucket compared to what I've seen on 10 and 11, so comparisons are difficult when you get into a detail like this.

I agree. I said this on OS too. I don't think it's psychic play calling but rather bad play calling. The cpu needs to adjust their play calls more on personel rather than down and distance. On first and 10 they are hell bent on stopping the run so they often come out in a base defence even if you are running a 4 WR spread offence. This gets frustrating as it leads to audibles and exploiting the cpu. It wasn't as fun running the spread option because of this. Hopefully this is a lot better in NCAA 12.

Pig Bomb
06-13-2011, 07:41 AM
I agree. I said this on OS too. I don't think it's psychic play calling but rather bad play calling. The cpu needs to adjust their play calls more on personel rather than down and distance. On first and 10 they are hell bent on stopping the run so they often come out in a base defence even if you are running a 4 WR spread offence. This gets frustrating as it leads to audibles and exploiting the cpu. It wasn't as fun running the spread option because of this. Hopefully this is a lot better in NCAA 12.

I still say it's psychic D based on my experience and not just bad playcalling or coinkydink.... like you mentioned if I'm running a HB dive play from a 4 WR set on 3rd down the psychic D comes out in some freaking 4-4 looking D...BUT then when I audible to a pass without moving any players or chaning formation they magically go cover all 4 WR's, audible back to a run...they go back to 4-4 D....hmmmmm --- I've learned to adapt and play on anyway.

However EA said they put in adaptive AI in NCAA 10 didn't they...it's broken and never worked...the defense never learns, and you can call the same play over and over, a functioning adaptive AI would help the AI playcalling alot!

baseballplyrmvp
06-13-2011, 09:09 AM
I still say it's psychic D based on my experience and not just bad playcalling or coinkydink.... like you mentioned if I'm running a HB dive play from a 4 WR set on 3rd down the psychic D comes out in some freaking 4-4 looking D...BUT then when I audible to a pass without moving any players or chaning formation they magically go cover all 4 WR's, audible back to a run...they go back to 4-4 D....hmmmmm --- I've learned to adapt and play on anyway.

However EA said they put in adaptive AI in NCAA 10 didn't they...it's broken and never worked...the defense never learns, and you can call the same play over and over, a functioning adaptive AI would help the AI playcalling alot!

ya, i've had almost the exact same experience. call a 4 wide pass play, the cpu is in a dime cover 2 with man coverage.....formation audible (right stick) to a run, and now there's 8 guys in the box. formation audible again to a deep pass play, the cpu goes back to man cover 2 look backing every d-back off of the line. i try audibling to a run again, and they bring 8 guys up into the box again.

if the cpu truly doesnt know any aspect of your playcalling, this kind of thing wouldnt happen. it has to know something- whether it knows if its a pass or run, knows what audible you're going to, something.

i've seen the 4 wide with the cpu in a 4-3, for both pass and run plays, example that's been brought up, and i can look past that. but this example above makes it blatantly obvious that the cpu knows something, when its able to perfectly counter my audibles 4 times on one play. and if it doesnt know anything, then the devs need to tone down the amount of lucky guesses the cpu makes when counter-audibling. to be fair though, i've also had it where the cpu sends an all out blitz, i audible to a deep pass, the cpu doesnt adjust, and i throw a long touchdown.

JeffHCross
06-13-2011, 08:34 PM
Thanks man thats all I was really askin for was just any insight at all. Thanks alotNot a problem, I completely understand. It's something I've been meaning to drill into and investigate, but haven't had the time.


i try audibling to a run again, and they bring 8 guys up into the box again. True, that does happen. But next time you're screwing around, audible to the same play like 5 times in a row. They'll change up their play call, even if it doesn't make sense to do so. I agree that there's something more going on (and clearly they have some level of information), but it's also clearly not truly 'psychic'.

One thing I do miss is that on PS1, when you called a Hot Route it would splash "HOT ROUTE!" on the screen. The same thing would happen for the CPU. Now, I didn't like that at the time ... but it's nice to get some signal that the CPU is calling an audible or hot routing, since they clearly get a code signal that we don't.

rhombic21
06-13-2011, 11:36 PM
Whatever is going on under the hood, I think it's apparent that the whole approach to AI playcalling needs to be completely revamped. They don't really pick up on tendencies or make smart adjustments. Half the time they aren't even lined up right. It really just kills offline play, as far as I'm concerned. And that's a shame, because I might enjoy getting into an online dynasty or two, but games against the CPU just aren't very fun to me.

Honestly, I think online play (and online dynasty in particular) has negatively impacted offline dynasty mode in this regard. If people didn't have an option to play against other humans, there's no way EA could get away with having the AI be this terrible.

It sucks that inevitably our options end up being to play online against random dudes that do nothing but exploit the AI, or play offline against an AI opponent that frankly isn't very good. Even in online dynasty mode, you still end up having to play 5 or 6 games a year against an AI controlled team. And with the rise of online dynasties, you don't see nearly as many leagues or communities for online play that are strictly user v user. All of those have basically died out or been converted to ODs in the past couple of years.

steelerfan
06-14-2011, 12:16 AM
rhombic, have you ever considered starting/joining an OD that has all users in the same conference? Then, you could have as few as 3 CPU games a year.

rhombic21
06-14-2011, 07:26 AM
I have, but even that is problematic. First, that effectively means that the post-season (bowl game) will always be against a CPU team, which means that you don't have the potential for a true showdown in a BCS NC Game or big bowl game. Which is part of the allure of dynasty mode to begin with.

Second, when you have all the teams in the same conference, it's very difficult to have any parity between the users in terms of team quality or recruiting advantages. For instance, if you're playing a Pac 12 dynasty, that means that somebody is going to end up with USC, and somebody else is going to have to play with Washington State. The time frame that it would take to turn around a program like WSU and get them to be a powerhouse (5 years or so) is longer than most ODs can reasonably get in a single calendar year. From my observations, it seems like ODs work best over the long-term when you have about 3-4 user teams per conference that have similar initial talent levels and are comparable in terms of prestige and recruiting.

The first issue is really the bigger one. If it were possible to have more people in an OD, so that you could have maybe 2 or 3 conferences (with bowl tie ins for the champions to play against each other) that were completely staffed with human players, then that would work for me. But a lot of people don't like to play those kinds of dynasties, because it makes the seasons take longer to play out, which means that you don't get as many years into it and you therefore don't get to do as much recruiting/roster building.

Personally, I like the idea of recruiting and building a roster, but I fear that playing in a dynasty with 6+ games a year against AI competition would result in those games being more of a chore to get out of the way. I'm not saying I'd never lose to the AI, but I definitely think that those games wouldn't be anywhere near as intense or fun as the user games are. I'd end up wanting to just play online random games rather than advancing my week in the dynasty. I think I'd eventually just lose interest in the dynasty altogether.

But we'll see, maybe this year I'll join one. The other thing that has killed ODs for me in the past is that there have often been big issues that needed to be patched, so you end up with dynasties that don't really even get started until a month or two after the game comes out. I was in the fore-runner of the Powerhouse dynasty back on NCAA '10, and that ended up petering out because of all the stuff with patches that caused people to shift to Madden and quit playing for awhile.

rhombic21
06-14-2011, 07:37 AM
And again, I think the bigger point here is that the offline CPU experience SHOULD be more enjoyable. I just really wish EA would invest more time and energy to get the AI to be a better opponent.

Pig Bomb
06-14-2011, 07:59 AM
custom conferences should make for some exciting options

Rudy
06-14-2011, 09:03 PM
And again, I think the bigger point here is that the offline CPU experience SHOULD be more enjoyable. I just really wish EA would invest more time and energy to get the AI to be a better opponent.

I agree. As an offline only gamer I want the cpu to play more like a human that learns and adjusts to what I do.

JeffHCross
06-14-2011, 09:06 PM
Well said, rhombic et al.