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View Full Version : NO CPU Scrambling QBs, No Peace ! Must have for NCAA 12



Gotmadskillzson
05-16-2011, 03:24 PM
<img style="visibility:hidden;width:0px;height:0px;" border=0 width=0 height=0 src="http://c.gigcount.com/wildfire/IMP/CXNID=2000002.0NXC/bT*xJmx*PTEzMDU1NzI3MjIzMzYmcHQ9MTMwNTU3MjcyNjEyNy ZwPTk1MDcxJmQ9Jmc9MSZvPTIyMTY3Y2E3MWY3YzQ3YWFhNDMw/NWEyYjEwZjJmZjg4Jm9mPTA=.gif" /><a href="http://www.easports.com/media/play/image/75874808" target="_top" shape="rect"><img src="http://cdn.content.easports.com/media2011/ncaa11/20180619/662A0001_1_JPEG_SCREENSHOT_RkY.jpg" width="640" alt="NCAA Football 11 Photo" style="border: none" /></a><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 12px;"><a href="http://www.easports.com/" target="_top" shape="rect">EA Sports</a>: <a href="http://www.easports.com/media/play/image/75874808" target="_top" shape="rect">NCAA Football 11 Photo</a></div>

Look at the above picture. In that picture you see CPU QB from Baylor, Griffin. With my roster he has 90 ball carrier vision, 90 agility, 85 awareness, 90 elusiveness, 88 speed, 96 acceleration.

Sounds impressive right ? However in a full game with 8 minute quarters on all american, he was sacked 6 times, threw 6 interceptions. With 4 of those interceptions coming from the cpu trying to force the ball in double and triple coverage. He didn't attempt to scramble AT ALL. Not once.

In this picture he side stepped 6 steps to the right. I blitzed the left side of his offensive line. You can clearly see because of this, HE HAS NOBODY IN FRONT OF HIM, got 1 defender about to hit him from behind with another about to do the same thing.

Now let me tell you how long the QB held on to the ball. Number 96 is the RE, he got chopped block at the beginning of the play, got up off the ground and is now a few yards from nailing the QB.

This is how long the CPU QB hold on to the ball in the NCAA series this whole generation. Instead of scrambling, they just stand there.

Now let me tell you what happened next. The QB turns towards 96 the RE and tried to fire the ball back across the field to a WR that was double covered. However he got sacked in mid throwing motion.

This kind of thing happens over and over in NCAA 11. QBs don't scramble when they have a clear wide open running lane. They don't try to use their speed or agility at all. Hell they don't even side step to the left, the only direction they ever side step is to the right and they will keep doing that until they either hit the sideline or get sacked.

Now I asked Ben doing the developer chat last week if cpu QBs will scramble, he said they would in the appropriate situation. However doing that same developer when Ben played a quarter against the cpu, the cpu QB didn't scramble not one time. Instead they were still doing the same side step to the right a few feet then fire it into double coverage routine.

Doing the Gamespot interview, when they were playing the cpu again for a quarter, the same thing happened. The cpu QB didnt scramble at all and did the same routine.

When will they address this issue ??? Hopefully one day Mike Scrantlebury can be in one of these developer chats since he is the game play AI guy for NCAA and Madden.

The theme of NCAA and Madden this year is presentation....Suppose to have the look and feel of being there and of watching it on tv. If that is the case, how can they NOT have CPU SCRAMBLING QBs ?????

Roy Harvery said Friday he lets the game run in his office cpu vs cpu while he is testing stats. Maybe while Roy is doing that and checking stats, maybe he should be checking the QBs rushing stats and rushing attempts per a game along with the sacks per a game.

Scrambling QBs is a HUGE part of football. What is the point of having tendancy description of Pocket QB, Balanced or Scrambler if it doesn't do anything or effect how the AI behaves on the field ?

Their whole QB logic needs to be re-coded, tweaked or something. It has gotten to the point now I have to hold back on defense when I play dynasty against the cpu. Why ? Because I know the CPU QB is a sitting duck. If I blitz it is a sack 90% of the time and an interception the other 10% of the time because the QB don't ever run away, he either takes the sack or forces it in double or triple coverage.

I haven't had to use a QB spy play or QB contain line adjustment in a NCAA or Madden football game since the 2006 version back on the PS2. This whole generation on the Xbox 360 starting with 2007, every year we keep getting from Ben and Russ we will address it next year.

Next year comes and nothing, then we get we will address next year again.

Now I find it hard to believe that you can put animals that run on the field and marching bands in the game, but you can't put QBs that scramble in the game ? Come on !!!!

Really kind of surprised that out of all of the EA Game Changers that go to community day, have access to the developers, that tweet them back and forth on a daily basis, that NONE of them, NOT ONE of them EVER brought up the fact that none of the CPU QBs don't ever scramble in the game over the past 4 or 5 years ?

One of them has to have noticed and brought it up or something. Don't tell me NONE of them ever play against the cpu and play online only.

I just know I can't be the only that noticed it over the past 4 years and gets ticked off about it. CPU scrambling QBs is a huge part of the college football game experience.

This needs to be addressed and made sure it actually happens in NCAA 12. There is no excuse.

Why not just have a scramble slider ? I mean you guys have a break tackle slider in Madden, even a fumble slider. So what's wrong with a scramble slider ?

Don't want a slider, then what about a scramble attribute ? The higher it is, the more likely that QB will take off and run.

Or you can call it a pocket awareness attribute. QBs with a high rating in that would more likely see that the pocket is broke and that a blitzer or defensive lineman has gotten free, so therefore they take off running.

When the day comes when NCAA series do get scrambling QBs, I hope they have them run in all directions. Not everybody rolls out to the right ALL THE TIME. Should be situational based. Depending on where the pressure is coming from, they run to the right, run to the left, run up the middle, juke left, juke right, spin to the left, spin to the right.

They also need to run with a purpose. They need to always be trying to fight for extra yards and get away from the defender.


Quote:





The gang tackling is really a nice addition. On one play I remember the HB getting stacked up by 5-6 guys but he kept his feet churning until the ref blew his whistle for forward progress and the defenders just pushed him away without anyone ever falling to the ground.

http://www.traditionfootball.com/ind...otball-review/



I read that and thought hmmmmm, I never seen that happened in this game before. What game was he playing ? Must have been the alpha build or something, sure wasn't retail build.

I never seen a gang tackle that ended like that. Hell never seen a 6 man gang tackle. The most I seen was 3 and the results always ended the same. Everybody either fell backwards or fell forward. But I never seen everybody legs still running and they just end in a stalemate still standing and the whistle blows.

It would have been cool to see, I guess they took that out before the retail version.

Anyway this post is long enough. No cpu QB scramble, no peace

Must have for NCAA 12

Paakaa10
05-16-2011, 03:44 PM
Really kind of surprised that out of all of the EA Game Changers that go to community day, have access to the developers, that tweet them back and forth on a daily basis, that NONE of them, NOT ONE of them EVER brought up the fact that none of the CPU QBs don't ever scramble in the game over the past 4 or 5 years ?

One of them has to have noticed and brought it up or something. Don't tell me NONE of them ever play against the cpu and play online only.

I don't know what information you're working from, but I'd say just about everyone who attended Community Events this year is aware that scrambling QBs in NCAA Football 11 and past games were not taking yards on the ground as much as they should be. It's been mentioned at events so far for NCAA Football 12, and it will be mentioned again this week if it isn't "right" for those of us going down.

It's been in my notes, and I'll be using--and playing against CPU--teams that have mobile QBs to see if progress has been made. The code of the game at other events so far has been too early to make any "sure thing" statements about where it's at for this year.

EDIT -- Side note: your videos or images for the post aren't working. I would love to see the reference materials you're working from so that we can use them to help illustrate points if need be.

Deuce
05-16-2011, 04:07 PM
Is that something that can be tuned? ...or is it much more complicated than that?

Paakaa10
05-16-2011, 04:12 PM
Is that something that can be tuned? ...or is it much more complicated than that?

My programming knowledge--at least when it comes to designing a football game with 22 players on field at a single time--is not great. That said, I would assume that if the logic for a scrambling quarterback making the right decisions was "easy," then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

It's been about a month since any of us Community Event guys have seen the game in action; at this point in development, that's enough time for serious things to change. A lot of guys from last week's Madden NFL 12 Community Event mentioned that quarterback scrambling was improved quite a bit over last year's game. Those of us going to Orlando this week for NCAA Football 12 hope to be able to say the same things.

ram29jackson
05-16-2011, 04:23 PM
I just see code , not a picture

PeteyKirch
05-16-2011, 06:06 PM
http://cdn.content.easports.com/media2011/ncaa11/20180619/662A0001_1_JPEG_SCREENSHOT_RkY.jpg

That's the image in question. It's RGIII from Baylor with nothing but open green field in front of him refusing to run.

Rudy
05-16-2011, 06:16 PM
I don't know what information you're working from, but I'd say just about everyone who attended Community Events this year is aware that scrambling QBs in NCAA Football 11 and past games were not taking yards on the ground as much as they should be. It's been mentioned at events so far for NCAA Football 12, and it will be mentioned again this week if it isn't "right" for those of us going down.

Everyone has agreed that is was an issue but the only comment I got from the last community day was that mobile QB logic wasn't a priority. The scramble logic was simply bad last year like it's been every year on the PS3. The odd time I would see a scramble the cpu QB would sometimes throw it away just as they got to the line of scrimmage despite having a wide open running lane. I want a LOT more scrambles from a fast QB and I want the dual threat QB to actually be a threat. I have never feared a mobile QB in NCAA football on the PS3 - not even close. I won't hold my breath on this improving though. They had Tebow on the cover last year (not a typical scrambling QB like Vincy Young or Shoelace) but the cpu spread option was still neutered.

The mobile QB is one of the biggest differences between the college and pro game. That's why I'm bugging the community day guys to play against a cpu Oregon team and see how well it shares the ball between the QB and RB and how dangerous the QB is in terms of running the option. The play action passing game is a HUGE part of that offense as well. Hopefully play action is a lot better as well.

griffin2608
05-16-2011, 06:49 PM
I have been waiting to be burned by a dual threat qb in NCAA. It really is a huge part of NCAA now and really needs to be treated as such. I wonder if it has anything to do with awareness?

Paakaa10
05-16-2011, 07:31 PM
Everyone has agreed that is was an issue but the only comment I got from the last community day was that mobile QB logic wasn't a priority. The scramble logic was simply bad last year like it's been every year on the PS3. ... The mobile QB is one of the biggest differences between the college and pro game. That's why I'm bugging the community day guys to play against a cpu Oregon team and see how well it shares the ball between the QB and RB and how dangerous the QB is in terms of running the option. The play action passing game is a HUGE part of that offense as well. Hopefully play action is a lot better as well.

Okay... but the original poster here was making the allegation that none of the EA SPORTS Game Changers or Community Event guys had EVER noticed that scrambling quarterbacks were problematic in years past or brought it up to the members of the development team, which is just completely untrue.

"Scramble Logic" is not a "bullet point" feature in the same sense that "Improved Zone Defense" or other facets of NCAA Football 12 are from what we've experienced so far. Does that mean that nothing is being done on it this year? No. Does that mean that it's going to be fixed completely to perfection this year? The answer here is also probably no.

We've brought it up to the developers; I'm hoping to see improvement with it this week. I already plan to play against a CPU Michigan team and a CPU Oregon team to see how those quarterbacks behave in the game. I agree--like everyone else--that the danger of an effective CPU dual-threat quarterback has not been realized in the game yet and I hope that my participation in the Community Events can help to make that happen in the future. I just don't know personally what the timetable will be; I'd love for it to be great this year.

Time will tell. I just can assure you that the point has been made and the developers want to make the game as great as it can be. You can read that as a "cop-out" statement or not, but the gameplay has already taken big strides from last year based on what we've played to this point.

I think we've found something to add to the NCAA Wishlist Tournament depending on how it ends up being for the final release.

Rudy
05-16-2011, 07:43 PM
I think the frustrating thing is that it shouldn't gave to be pointed out or added for a wishlist tourney for next year. It's extremely obvious that it needs significant work. Why hasn't it been a back of the box item to this point is what some of us are wondering?

Paakaa10
05-16-2011, 07:48 PM
I think the frustrating thing is that it shouldn't gave to be pointed out or added for a wishlist tourney for next year. It's extremely obvious that it needs significant work. Why hasn't it been a back of the box item to this point is what some of us are wondering?

Personally? I don't know. This is my first year of "inside" involvement, and my first times visiting the studio while the game could still be changed. This is something better answered by people who have been in this position before.

If you want a sense that the developers actually do acknowledge this part of the game, gameplay guy Larry Richart specifically asked me--seeing that I was playing against a CPU Michigan last month at the event--if I thought that QB #16 was too overpowered in the game. Due to the early version of the build, however, there were things that kept me from being able to fully answer that query. The hope is that the game will have overcome these development-related quirks so that I can get a better sense of what we can reasonably expect from the retail release.

Rudy
05-16-2011, 07:51 PM
If they get this area right, the game could be epic. Push for Shoelace to be over powered!

JeffHCross
05-16-2011, 07:57 PM
Why hasn't it been a back of the box item to this point is what some of us are wondering?Because, quite honestly, "the QB Scrambles now!" doesn't work as a back-of-the-box feature. And, also quite honestly, the people asking for it, while vocal, are in the relative minority.

It's being worked on and I saw QB scrambles in January and April that I haven't seen in NCAA 11. And I can't tell from the original post what he's quoting, which part is his opinion, or what -- so it's difficult to really discuss.

I can tell you it's better, but it's also something I'm going to look at in-depth this week.

Rudy
05-16-2011, 08:01 PM
Sounds good. I do know the op has been frustrated with this for awhile though OS.

JeffHCross
05-16-2011, 10:53 PM
Gotmadskillzson, I saw your link (http://www.operationsports.com/forums/ncaa-football/484650-no-cpu-qb-scramble-no-peace-must-have-ncaa-12-a.html) to your OS post on Twitter. Thanks for that, it made a lot more sense out of your post here.

Regarding the 6-man gang tackles that Tradition Football's review mentioned ... they are there, in NCAA 11, in a manner of speaking. What I think he was referring to was that sometimes you'll have a huge number of guys around the ball carrier, many of them latched on, but then the ball carrier will break out and keep running. It's not a "gang tackle", per se, but I know what he's talking about. I just saw one the other night against PSUSnoop, actually, though it was only 3 or 4 guys around the ball carrier in that case.

As we've said earlier in the thread, your question about "NONE of them, NOT ONE of them EVER brought up the fact that none of the CPU QBs don't ever scramble in the game" has been brought up. It has been discussed, and in my opinion it has been improved for NCAA 12. I do plan on looking more into it (in fact, looking at rush stats like you mentioned).

JBHuskers
05-16-2011, 10:57 PM
Definitely show the guys that screenshot from OS when you're down there this week, Jeff.

http://cdn.content.easports.com/media2011/ncaa11/20180619/662A0001_1_JPEG_SCREENSHOT_RkY.jpg

JeffHCross
05-16-2011, 11:05 PM
Definitely show the guys that screenshot from OS when you're down there this week, Jeff.I think I'll bring it up to Scant and then run far away so he doesn't SMASH me.

JBHuskers
05-16-2011, 11:20 PM
I think I'll bring it up to Scant and then run far away so he doesn't SMASH me.

It'll do you some good :D

Rudy
05-17-2011, 04:10 AM
Show him a couple of videos I still have saved from NCAA 11.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU1ibEu5BSI

This one is a Wildcat play but where the heck was LaMichael James going? As a RB he couldn't have had a bigger hole to run into the endzone and he makes a beeline to the defender near the sideline.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQRJU7526A0

souljahbill
05-17-2011, 06:15 AM
Show him a couple of videos I still have saved from NCAA 11.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU1ibEu5BSI

This one is a Wildcat play but where the heck was LaMichael James going? As a RB he couldn't have had a bigger hole to run into the endzone and he makes a beeline to the defender near the sideline.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQRJU7526A0

That's 14 points right there.

psusnoop
05-17-2011, 07:13 AM
That is a good picture as well as a couple of good vids displaying these situations. Nice work guys, I've always felt having a video or picture can only help when we are looking to get things better.

That FB has a 93 break tackle and 94 trucking rating on that play Jeff. I'll be honest I've not been a huge fan of that kind of play because as a defender you got sucked in and couldn't do anything about it or stop it. It will be interesting to see if it is better this year (I'm expected it will be).

Gotmadskillzson
05-17-2011, 11:24 AM
http://espn.go.com/college-football/statistics/player/_/stat/rushing/sort/rushingYards/year/2010/group/80

Last season in college football you had 3 QBs that rushed for over 1,000 yards. You had 21 QBs total that rushed for over 500 yards. Not all QBs that rushed for a lot of yards are scramblers or even use a playbook that have a lot of designed QB runs in it either.

Just a small cross sample from that list with some of the lesser known QBs:

nathan scheelhaase - QB of Illinois - 868 Rushing yards

chandler harnish - QB of NIU - 836 rushing yards

Terrell Pryor - QB of Ohio St - 754 rushing yards

Chris Relf - QB of Miss ST - 713 rushing yards

Tyrod Taylor - QB of VT - 659 rushing yards

GJ Kline - QB of Tulsa - 549 rushing yards

Dan Persa - QB of Northwestern - 519 rushing yards

Andrew Luck - QB of Stanford - 459 rushing yards, 8.2 yards an attempt

Andy Dolton - QB of TCU - 435 rushing yards, 5.1 yards an attempt

Out of this sample size, only 3 of these QBs are even classified as "scramblers". But yet last season they ran a lot in real life.

psuexv
05-17-2011, 11:59 AM
That FB has a 93 break tackle and 94 trucking rating on that play Jeff. I'll be honest I've not been a huge fan of that kind of play because as a defender you got sucked in and couldn't do anything about it or stop it. It will be interesting to see if it is better this year (I'm expected it will be).

yes but breaking gang tackles does happen. I honestly don't think it was that frequent in '11 that it should be a major concern


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynn7VGY2Asc

psuexv
05-17-2011, 12:05 PM
Actually this one is even better, he doesn't completely slip away but he is real close


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uEAwoxS36o&feature=player_embedded

xGRIDIRONxGURUx
05-17-2011, 12:05 PM
having a RB in and complaining about his scrambling shouldnt count in the discussion... no matter how much i love LMJ... =)

"E"

psusnoop
05-17-2011, 12:10 PM
yes but breaking gang tackles does happen. I honestly don't think it was that frequent in '11 that it should be a major concern


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynn7VGY2Asc

I was more talking about as your controlling your guy on defense there really isn't anything you can do to prevent this from happening. You can select a guy away from the play to attempt to finish the tackle, or contain it and what seems to happen when it does happen is that it is broken for a TD because the Defenders are out of position.

Koach Vonner
05-17-2011, 12:40 PM
Could you please ask if "No Huddle" and Hurry Up offense is still in the game. Maybe I'm missing it, but nowhere do I see this as still being a big thing from last year. I love that about the game. Now with "Custom Playbooks" in :))

cdj
05-17-2011, 02:22 PM
Could you please ask if "No Huddle" and Hurry Up offense is still in the game. Maybe I'm missing it, but nowhere do I see this as still being a big thing from last year. I love that about the game. Now with "Custom Playbooks" in :))

The styles of play are still in.



RE: I've asked at previous events if QB scrambling logic has been improved and have been told yes. I will see if I can get a more exact answer in regards to it. I agree that it has been an issue with the game the last few years and would help make the CPU much more competitive in a realistic fashion.

Just my personal thought here...we may not get realistic season rushing stats for QBs unless they also address sim logic as it relates to rushing/mobile QBs. That might be a different beast as it relates to mobile QBs in Human vs. CPU games.

Gotmadskillzson
05-17-2011, 03:47 PM
RE: I've asked at previous events if QB scrambling logic has been improved and have been told yes. I will see if I can get a more exact answer in regards to it. I agree that it has been an issue with the game the last few years and would help make the CPU much more competitive in a realistic fashion.

Just my personal thought here...we may not get realistic season rushing stats for QBs unless they also address sim logic as it relates to rushing/mobile QBs. That might be a different beast as it relates to mobile QBs in Human vs. CPU games.

If you could get a more exact answer, that would be great. Something is completely wrong when they can program a tiger and dog to react to a person walking by from a rival team, by having them jump and bark or in the tiger's case roar, but they can't program a QB to react to a defender coming towards them by scrambling away.

Something is wrong with that logic.

gschwendt
05-17-2011, 03:50 PM
If you could get a more exact answer, that would be great. Something is completely wrong when they can program a tiger and dog to react to a person walking by from a rival team, by having them jump and bark or in the tiger's case roar, but they can't program a QB to react to a defender coming towards them by scrambling away.

Something is wrong with that logic.One is completely scripted, the other is completely artificial intelligence. Not saying it shouldn't be corrected but the two issues you described are entirely different altogether.

Rudy
05-17-2011, 03:57 PM
having a RB in and complaining about his scrambling shouldnt count in the discussion... no matter how much i love LMJ... =)

"E"

It's actually worse lol. LMJ couldn't see that huge hole in front of him - is that because he was using 40 awareness as a QB?

I'd just love to see QBs take off more. The NCAA team creates all these spy defensive plays and hot routes but it's completely unnecessary for the offline gamer since the cpu rarely takes off.

Gotmadskillzson
05-17-2011, 04:18 PM
It's actually worse lol. LMJ couldn't see that huge hole in front of him - is that because he was using 40 awareness as a QB?

I'd just love to see QBs take off more. The NCAA team creates all these spy defensive plays and hot routes but it's completely unnecessary for the offline gamer since the cpu rarely takes off.

Indeed, I must say I was completely let down last year because before the game came out they released the QB blog with all the new spy plays, defensive line containment features........So I was thinking last year would be the year of actual scrambling QBs.

However when the game came out, it was the same old routine. Never had to use any spy play or defensive line containment.

As it stands now, sacking the CPU QB is like shooting fish in a barrel because they don't scramble away from pressure. If you blitz it is only 2 outcomes.

The QB either going to take the sack or he is going to do that lame duck throw that gets intercepted by a defensive lineman or linebacker.

IMO the whole throw out of sack feature needs to be removed. That is all the cpu QB does or attempt to do, instead of scrambling.

Rudy
05-17-2011, 04:20 PM
The QB has to stop sliding to the right every time they feel pressure too. I want my RDE, who is supposed to be the better pass rusher, get more sacks than the slob at LE who lucks into them.

Gotmadskillzson
05-17-2011, 04:56 PM
QBs should also be able to use their special moves behind the LOS as well. They should be able to spin away from a pass rush, juke or stiff arm a bltzing linebacker that is coming up the middle. This year Madden 12 seems to have addressed this issue with player traits. Hopefully NCAA 12 can address this issue as well.

Gotmadskillzson
05-18-2011, 11:01 AM
IMO there is no reason the NCAA team shouldn't have player traits as well.

And before somebody pulls that player likeness card out of their back pocket, like they always do, that is nothing but an excuse. If that was the case then you wouldn't be able to have player numbers, dreads or ratings period.

The ability to scramble or how often they scramble isn't unique to one specific player. It is simply a characteristic of a certain style of QB.

It is no different then having teams run the no huddle offense all game long. Did they cry player likeness when they did that last year ? No.

Team specific celebrations, did they cry player likeness when they did that ? No

Why ? Because it is a part of the school and not part of the player.

Well scrambling QBs and player traits is the same thing. It isn't unique to a person, it is just part of the position.

Hell for years, they even had the tendancy description for players. Did not Denard Robinson, Nesbit, Griffin, Martinez come shipped with the player tendancy description of "scrambling QB" ?

Just like Moore, Luck, Mallet came with the tendancy description of "pocket passer" ?

So how you going to label somebody that way and not cry about player likeness but then don't have them play that way ? You can't have it both ways. On one hand you say I can't do this because of player likeness but in the same breath label those players the way they play in real life.

How you going to label people all americans and as impact players ? You don't say anything about player likeness then at all.

So why is it then when it comes to scrambling QBs and player traits, people want to play the player likeness card ?

Player likeness issue is just a cop out for not doing stuff.

JeffHCross
05-18-2011, 11:53 AM
I'd just love to see QBs take off more.We hadn't been here more than 15 minutes before we already saw more scrambles from QBs -- not just sliding away from pressure, but legitimate scrambles for yardage -- than I've seen in all of NCAA 11.

JBHuskers
05-18-2011, 12:58 PM
We hadn't been here more than 15 minutes before we already saw more scrambles from QBs -- not just sliding away from pressure, but legitimate scrambles for yardage -- than I've seen in all of NCAA 11.

:up: :nod: :easy: :check:

Keontez
05-18-2011, 01:09 PM
Are we allowed to ask how effective these scrambles are? Do they make Denard Robinson type runs or no?

And has anybody played any games against GaTech. Just wondering if the QB keeps are effective for the CPU.

JBHuskers
05-18-2011, 01:12 PM
Are we allowed to ask how effective these scrambles are? Do they make Denard Robinson type runs or no?

And has anybody played any games against GaTech. Just wondering if the QB keeps are effective for the CPU.

Yeah you're allowed, they're able to talk about stuff like that.

Keontez
05-18-2011, 01:29 PM
well consider that question asked.

Gotmadskillzson
05-18-2011, 02:03 PM
Good stuff man !!!!!!!!!

Do they have a particular rating that makes them scramble more this year ? Or is it soley based off of their elusiveness, agility and ball carrier vision rating ? OR does the tendancy description this year of pocket, balanced and scrambler actually determines how they act and their ratings just determines how good at it they are ?

Can you ask them those questions, would be much appreciated.

Rudy
05-18-2011, 09:37 PM
Great news about more scrambling. My optimism is growing.

cdj
05-19-2011, 06:55 AM
Are we allowed to ask how effective these scrambles are? Do they make Denard Robinson type runs or no?

I want to get more games under my belt before saying anything definitive, but (as JHC said earlier) the CPU seems to scramble more than they have in a long time in the franchise. They don't seem to be like 'deer in the headlights' when taking off anymore - it seemed that when they take off, they are going to get at least a couple of yards, if not 5-10+. IIRC, the number of QB rushes ranged from 2 to 14 in the games I played yesterday.

I'll try and log some games against GT and get back to you on that question.

psusnoop
05-19-2011, 06:59 AM
Thanks CDJ, be interesting to see that info later tonight.

Gotmadskillzson
05-19-2011, 11:11 AM
Thanks, sounds good to me.

steelerfan
05-22-2011, 01:46 AM
I definitely saw more, and more effective, scrambles last week than I did in April. I lost, 31-7 at Michigan (I was WMU) and Robinson's back up (I knocked Denard out) had a 74-yard TD against me on a scramble.

While I can't say this is "fixed" (my sample size is too small), it is better than 11. Based solely on the games I played this past week, I'd say QBs scramble more and do more damage when they do, but I'd guess they don't scramble as frequently as most people would like. I'm optimistic that this is going to end up better in 12 than it has been in years.

Rudy
05-22-2011, 06:49 AM
I definitely saw more, and more effective, scrambles last week than I did in April. I lost, 31-7 at Michigan (I was WMU) and Robinson's back up (I knocked Denard out) had a 74-yard TD against me on a scramble.

While I can't say this is "fixed" (my sample size is too small), it is better than 11. Based solely on the games I played this past week, I'd say QBs scramble more and do more damage when they do, but I'd guess they don't scramble as frequently as most people would like. I'm optimistic that this is going to end up better in 12 than it has been in years.

This is good news. I'm sure that's something that can still be tuned down the stretch or through tuning files (which I would love to hear how they plan on using them this year).

By the way, Robinson's backup is Devin Gardner who some believe will be the QB sooner than later. I have my concerns about how Robinson can transition to a more pro-style QB. I guess the Vegas odds have Shoelace as #2 to get the Heisman. That is way too high. There is a better chance he transfers at the end of the year than win the Heisman. Robinson is super exciting and a tremendous runner. He is perfectly suited to the spread-option offence. As a passer he left MUCH to be desired. He could make the simple pass off play action and passes under 10 yards. But as soon as it was an obvious passing situation where he was forced to throw, he really didn't play well at all. Poor and slow decision making and substandard accuracy down the field were evident to everyone that watched but masked by his overall numbers. I'm hoping that since this is just his 3rd year he can improve his raw skills but I am worried about it.

Rudy
05-22-2011, 06:50 AM
Steelerfan - did you play against Oregon? How did the spread-option do against you? I'm really hoping the cpu is more effective when they run it.

steelerfan
05-22-2011, 12:53 PM
Steelerfan - did you play against Oregon? How did the spread-option do against you? I'm really hoping the cpu is more effective when they run it.

I did, but only once and Oregon was HUM controlled. It seemed as though 4/5 games I looked at on other TVs had Oregon playing, so I'm sure someone here has some feedback.

rhombic21
05-22-2011, 01:08 PM
I guess the big thing, which really this whole topic really fits within, is the extent to which the AI is a better opponent. I don't mean simply harder to beat, but rather that it plays more "human-like" in terms of making intelligent decisions and adjustments. I don't expect that we'll get there anytime soon, but it would be nice to get to a place where I could play offline against the computer and have it be comparable to playing an online opponent. I don't really get the sense that the dev. team is working really strongly in that direction right now. It seems like they're more focused on getting the basic gameplay elements in place, like zone coverage and run blocking, which can dramatically improve the human v human experience (and of course also the HUM v CPU experience to some degree), and are making a lot less progress in making the CPU AI be more intelligent.

Right now, the only reason that the CPU is difficult to beat at all is because it cheats at certain aspects. Or if you set the sliders/difficulty settings up so that it gets an unrealistic boost.

Rudy
05-22-2011, 03:14 PM
No question you can easily tell the difference between the cpu and human opponents. The biggest difference to me is in the play calling. Humans know which plays in a playbook don't work well and don't call them. The cpu seems intent on using it's full playbook all the time and don't make enough adjustments on how to improve on offence and defence. I'd love to see the cpu keep track of their own tendencies and call successful offensive plays more often and avoid the crappy ones. Same goes for defensive calls based on what the human is doing.

jaymo76
05-22-2011, 04:19 PM
I just hope option teams are actually option teams this year. I go nuts playing say Navy and the QB passes thirty times and the cpu RB's have like 30 yards combined.

rhombic21
05-22-2011, 04:27 PM
No question you can easily tell the difference between the cpu and human opponents. The biggest difference to me is in the play calling. Humans know which plays in a playbook don't work well and don't call them. The cpu seems intent on using it's full playbook all the time and don't make enough adjustments on how to improve on offence and defence. I'd love to see the cpu keep track of their own tendencies and call successful offensive plays more often and avoid the crappy ones. Same goes for defensive calls based on what the human is doing.

For me, that's the really big thing. All of the other stuff they do with dynasty is nice, but none of it will really matter until the AI is just a smarter opponent. I just find it boring to play the CPU because it makes the kinds of mistakes that even horrible human players don't make. I pretty much only play online for that reason. Online games feel like more of a chess match to me, even if you do have a lot of people that use cheesy tactics. I'd rather deal with cheese and at least feel pressure to think and adjust, than I would play offline against a CPU opponent that doesn't feel like much of a challenge.

Ideally, the CPU needs to not only keep track of tendencies in terms of knowing which plays worked and which didn't, but it also needs to develop a better way to anticipate what you are going to do (without cheating and simply knowing what you're doing). Then it would feel like a real chess match, because you would have an incentive to do self-scouting and could be rewarded for breaking tendencies at timely points in the game (i.e. calling a play action pass at a key moment after setting up the run, or calling a draw play after getting them to play the pass).

There are also basic things, like getting the AI to better understand alignment so that it matches the strength of the formation better. Right now it's simply too easy to use motion or unbalanced formations and outnumber the CPU at the point of attack to generate big running yards.

And I understand that they have to focus on getting the base AI down (i.e. things like zone coverage, run blocking, run defense, etc...), because otherwise the game won't play well no matter what. Obviously if more things work the way they are supposed to, then the AI will also improve because there will be fewer broken plays for it to call.

The online dynasty feature has given dynasty mode some fresh air because it allows people to get most of the cool things associated with a dynasty while still playing against other humans. But even then you can only play so many HUM v HUM games a year, so the CPU AI is a pretty important part of the game. And the reality is that the CPU AI, in terms of things like playcalling and adjustments, hasn't taken a major step forward in several years. They need to fix the line play soon, but after that, they really need to invest in making the CPU AI a more interesting and worthwhile opponent. That way people like me can go back to enjoying dynasty mode.

Gotmadskillzson
05-22-2011, 08:10 PM
I really wish it was August already for I can see how the whole Madden 12 player tendancies works out. I know in NBA 2k11 it works very damn good and playing against the cpu is a blast.

But back on subject, if the cpu QB scramble more and do more damage, then that is a good thing. Hopefully it is ratings driven. So therefore if we want a player to scramble even more or less, depending on the QB, we as the consumer can adjust it via ratings. And I hope they scramble and roll out in different directions.

Past few years the only direction they side stepped was to the right. Which led to the LE leading the team in sacks every year.

Gotmadskillzson
05-22-2011, 08:21 PM
Hey what ever happened to CDJ ? He never came back on here.

I am not going to lie I F5 this page 100 times on Friday and Saturday looking to see if he posted back on here LOL.

JeffHCross
05-22-2011, 09:00 PM
He probably just got busy like all of us did.

Based on the various reports I heard from other guys who saw QBs scramble, and my own observations, I'd say that anyone listed as a "Scrambler" (which is a ratings driven designation of tendency) will take off. It was hard to see if there was a certain AWR trigger that would have some QBs take off more than others ... but it was definitely across a variety of OVR ratings. The only real link between the QBs we saw take off were that they were Scramblers. I don't recall seeing anyone play against a CPU controlled "Pocket Passer" QB, so I can't say what their behavior would be.

souljahbill
05-22-2011, 09:08 PM
He probably just got busy.......
In a Burger King bathroom?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChaXS3Naje4

cdj
05-22-2011, 09:08 PM
Hey what ever happened to CDJ ? He never came back on here.

I am not going to lie I F5 this page 100 times on Friday and Saturday looking to see if he posted back on here LOL.

Hey man - I'm going with what someone else said above.....the CPU may not scramble enough for some (subjective stat), but the QB scrambles now more than I remember in the history of the franchise. I played against Arkansas State with another lowly team and their QB gashed me with 14 carries before getting hurt. Designer Russ K. happened to be sitting nearby and joked that he thought if the ASU QB stayed healthy that they would have won. The QB went out on the final drive as they were looking to tie the game or take the lead. The ASU QB is listed as a 'Scrambler' and didn't have the greatest ratings, but still was a threat running.

steelerfan
05-22-2011, 09:31 PM
I played against Arkansas State with another lowly team

Wow! Cheap shot at Tommy? :fp:

souljahbill
05-22-2011, 09:35 PM
Wow! Cheap shot at Tommy? :fp:

:D

More likely a pot shot at:Southern_Miss:

jaymo76
05-22-2011, 09:43 PM
Hey man - I'm going with what someone else said above.....the CPU may not scramble enough for some (subjective stat), but the QB scrambles now more than I remember in the history of the franchise. I played against Arkansas State with another lowly team and their QB gashed me with 14 carries before getting hurt. Designer Russ K. happened to be sitting nearby and joked that he thought if the ASU QB stayed healthy that they would have won. The QB went out on the final drive as they were looking to tie the game or take the lead. The ASU QB is listed as a 'Scrambler' and didn't have the greatest ratings, but still was a threat running.

sounds good!

Gotmadskillzson
05-22-2011, 10:20 PM
Sounds good to me. I wonder if they had the same QB as last year starting. Because I remember in NCAA 11 Arkansas St QB would routinely end up with well over 1,000 yards rushing everytime I did a dynasty. I think his name was Joplin, Aoplin or something like that. His ratings were piss poor, like his awareness was 50 with speed of 70. But I do remember it was Arkansas St.

JeffHCross
05-22-2011, 10:57 PM
The ASU QB is listed as a 'Scrambler' and didn't have the greatest ratings, but still was a threat running.Eh ... for a Sun Belt team, he looked like a pretty good player.

Paakaa10
05-24-2011, 09:56 PM
I've been meaning to post some feedback on the scrambling quarterbacks question from my experience at the Community Event last week, but unfortunately I got back to Michigan on Saturday night and left for Tulsa, Oklahoma on Sunday morning. My wife and I narrowly missed all the tornado craziness in Joplin, Missouri on Sunday and we had another tornado scare in Tulsa tonight. Thankfully, however, all is well for now.

Now, scrambling quarterbacks; the first game I played last week was against a CPU-controlled Michigan, and I definitely liked what I saw from QB #16 in terms of scramble logic. Was he running up and down the field unstoppable scoring touchdowns every drive? No. Was he getting caught on blockers in the backfield every time he gave up on the pass? Definitely not.

Let me detail two specific plays I witnessed and watched through replays with members of the development team and community event guys.

Play #1 ended up being a 5-yard scramble gain for QB #16, which in and of itself doesn't sound impressive; it's a short gain, wasn't even a first down conversion. They were a satisfying 5 yards to me, however, because of the logic employed on the decision making. The pocket was solid, but the defense had all receivers on the play locked down. So QB #16 took off behind his line to the right and grabbed 5 yards before sliding at the right hash mark to avoid getting leveled by a linebacker sizing him up. Can't recall ever seeing anything remotely close to that in NCAA 11.

The second play was a 12-yard rush for a first down and featured an opposite situation for QB #16; one of my defensive linemen got around the pocket on the right and had a fairly clear line at the passer. Because QB #16 has speed and can scramble, he took off up the middle of the line of scrimmage--since blocks were still solid there--and got into open space for a solid gain before getting taken down. I feel as though the same circumstances in NCAA 11 would've easily resulted in the CPU QB getting held up on his own linemen and taking a loss.

These are just two examples out of many times where I saw quarterbacks scrambling; these weren't designed QB runs, they were actual scrambles where a pass play was called from the huddle and the run was pursued instead because the situation allowed for it to be successful.

It almost became a running joke by the end of the Community Event where a quarterback would pick up good yards on the ground and somebody would call out in the room, "So they DO scramble!" It was definitely nice to see it happen when it did. I personally got burned on a 50-yard touchdown scramble one time and I know other guys were making sure to take better advantage of QB Spy defenses to try and contain the offensive attack as well.

Based on what I saw last week, the scrambling QB will be an effective part of CPU play in NCAA Football 12. I hope that you all get to see the same things I did once the game hits stores.

Rudy
05-24-2011, 10:11 PM
Shoelace!

morsdraconis
05-24-2011, 10:28 PM
I've been meaning to post some feedback on the scrambling quarterbacks question from my experience at the Community Event last week, but unfortunately I got back to Michigan on Saturday night and left for Tulsa, Oklahoma on Sunday morning. My wife and I narrowly missed all the tornado craziness in Joplin, Missouri on Sunday and we had another tornado scare in Tulsa tonight. Thankfully, however, all is well for now.

That's good to hear man. Those tornadoes that are happening in the midwest are ridiculous right now. Glad to see you're safe.


(scrambling QB information)

That's some excellent news man. Thank you for providing that. Definitely great to hear.

Paakaa10
05-24-2011, 10:36 PM
That's some excellent news man. Thank you for providing that. Definitely great to hear.

It feels good to be able to bring back good news. I do also want to specify and emphasize that these weren't "old style scrambles" where the CPU QB decided to run the ball just because they'd been sitting in the pocket without pressure for about 7-8 seconds and they got bored enough to step up and tuck the ball. On the second play I described in detail above, QB #16 took off basically as soon as he saw the pressure cut around the pocket. Had it been NCAA 11, I'm fairly certain that the inherent "delay' in deciding to run the ball would've resulted in a tackle for loss.

Gotmadskillzson
05-24-2011, 11:00 PM
Good stuff man.....July 12th can't come quick enough.

JeffHCross
07-03-2011, 08:24 PM
CPU vs CPU, using playbooks that have nothing but Pass Plays (which means this is a scramble): http://www.easports.com/media/play/video/80024898

Gotmadskillzson
07-03-2011, 10:20 PM
I just noticed something looking at the highlight video. They don't list you difficulty anymore such as varsity, all american, heisman. It just has user skill 2 and game mode 0. I wonder if anything else changed. Never the less it was a good scramble and was surprised he got caught from behind, thought for sure it was a TD.

JeffHCross
07-03-2011, 10:41 PM
I just noticed something looking at the highlight video. They don't list you difficulty anymore such as varsity, all american, heisman. It just has user skill 2 and game mode 0. I wonder if anything else changed.I would suspect that those aren't intentional. Notice the Home Team and Away Team are also displayed as numbers. I'd bet that there's a database lookup function that isn't happening, that should be translating from those numbers to user-readable text. (Though I've played enough games of NCAA that I can take a guess what each means.)

Gotmadskillzson
07-03-2011, 11:16 PM
Hey would you happen to know or maybe you can ask, what is different about this year that allows QB scrambles ? Since this game has the same sliders and ratings as last year. And I know last year it was something they couldn't patch in or tune in.

So was it something they had to add to the engine or what ?

Also I am a big time roster editing type of guy and always enjoy learning which rating triggers what kind of animation to play out. And I know each rating have a certain cut off number that you either have to be at or above to trigger specific animations.

So would you so happen to know or can ask what rating and what the cut off number is to trigger the following:

QB scramble
Low tackles
High tackles
Wrap tackles
Special catches
Using the stiff arm more
Using the spin move more
QB sliding
Whether or not the Runner tries to take on the tackler or bounce to the outside to avoid the crowds more

JeffHCross
07-03-2011, 11:36 PM
89/90 is where I've heard many of the top animations trigger. I know that's the case for Special Catches in particular, based on a few WRs I've had. Though my belief is that is also influenced by sliders.

To be honest, I'm not comfortable asking for much more information than that. It puts the team in an awkward position if they don't want to tell me.

As for the first question, about the QB scrambles ... we've seen it come from a wide variety of QBs across a wide variety of ranges. My personal belief at this time is that any QB with the "Scrambler" tendency, regardless of overall ratings, is likely to go. I think even "Balanced" QBs will go, just significantly less. Not sure about "Pocket Passers" right now.

Gotmadskillzson
07-04-2011, 12:20 AM
Well looking at the rosters on team builder at the good QB scramblers in the game that was different the last year's rating is that this year the really good QB scramblers have a high Kick return rating. That is something they didn't have last year, no QB did.

beartide06
07-04-2011, 12:24 AM
The gang tackling is really a nice addition. On one play I remember the HB getting stacked up by 5-6 guys but he kept his feet churning until the ref blew his whistle for forward progress and the defenders just pushed him away without anyone ever falling to the ground.

http://www.traditionfootball.com/ind...otball-review/



I read that and thought hmmmmm, I never seen that happened in this game before. What game was he playing ? Must have been the alpha build or something, sure wasn't retail build.

I never seen a gang tackle that ended like that. Hell never seen a 6 man gang tackle. The most I seen was 3 and the results always ended the same. Everybody either fell backwards or fell forward. But I never seen everybody legs still running and they just end in a stalemate still standing and the whistle blows.

It would have been cool to see, I guess they took that out before the retail version.

Must have for NCAA 12

I actually did see this happen twice to me on this years game. A couple gang tackles happened with about 6+ guys and the RB was stood up and they blew the play dead. On multiple occasions I had gang tackles with multiple guys.

Rudy
07-04-2011, 05:41 AM
CPU vs CPU, using playbooks that have nothing but Pass Plays (which means this is a scramble): http://www.easports.com/media/play/video/80024898

That was an 11 second scramble. Is there a cutoff to PS3 replays like last year?

gschwendt
07-04-2011, 09:49 AM
That was an 11 second scramble. Is there a cutoff to PS3 replays like last year?
Unfortunately it looks like they are to some extent... not sure if they're longer or not but I have seen some cutoff. Granted that same play may have been cutoff on the 360 as well... I don't know.

JeffHCross
07-04-2011, 11:15 AM
That was an 11 second scramble. Is there a cutoff to PS3 replays like last year?That was a PS3 replay ... I have no idea if that would have been cut off on '11 on PS3. I've noticed that it's not always time-dependent, but also what goes on during the play.

gschwendt
07-04-2011, 11:18 AM
That was a PS3 replay ... I have no idea if that would have been cut off on '11 on PS3. I've noticed that it's not always time-dependent, but also what goes on during the play.
Yeah, last year I noticed it wasn't length dependent, rather something like how many animations were triggered during the play or something like that.