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gschwendt
05-04-2011, 04:05 PM
http://thegamingtailgate.com/images/NCAA12/ncaa12d.jpg

A new video posted by EA SPORTS showcases newly added animations for dive catches by receivers and bull rush animations by rushers.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb5T4qk8Bfw

blackice8181
05-04-2011, 04:12 PM
Cutting animations at 42 and 49 seconds look fantastic!

WolverineJay
05-04-2011, 04:20 PM
Thats not a bull rush thats a push down of a little kid. Bull rush is getting lower than the OL and pushing them back ala Suh. That animation is pure arcade.

souljahbill
05-04-2011, 04:33 PM
Thats not a bull rush thats a push down of a little kid. Bull rush is getting lower than the OL and pushing them back ala Suh. That animation is pure arcade.

Yeah, I've never really seen linemen pushed down like that. I've seen the opposite of a d-lineman being pancaked but never an o-lineman pushed down on the ground like a child.

Daywalker86
05-04-2011, 04:48 PM
:nod::nod::nod:

Keontez
05-04-2011, 04:53 PM
yeah, Didnt like that animation at all. And Im not really one to be critical of EA/Tiburon but that animation is pretty bad.

psusnoop
05-04-2011, 04:53 PM
So community day guys, what were your thoughts on this during play now games? Did you notice this happening with much frequency? If so I'm sure it would be able to be tuned in a tuner set.

Also just to get into the matchups, did you see this happening across the board? Kinda like a stud LT getting blown up by an average DE or DT? Or did you feel it was sort of random when it happened?

Another thing, I know most play as a MLB in the game but did anyone try to control the Dline and get this move to happen or try this move via a button? What were the results if timed well verse missing the timing if it was a button?

ram29jackson
05-04-2011, 05:11 PM
what team is that in the top picture ?...ok I see its Maryland...helmet is ok..dont know about jersey ?

I like the new shoes

steelerfan
05-04-2011, 05:14 PM
what team is that in the top picture ?

Maryland.

WolverineJay
05-04-2011, 05:14 PM
what team is that in the top picture ?

That is Maryland I believe

Just beat me to it steelerfan. They do look Sharp. I really like the way the Helmet looks.

Oneback
05-04-2011, 05:14 PM
I will defer to others as while I was visiting the dive animations were in and worked well but I don't remember seeing the bull rush animation at all so I am unsure as if it was in at that time.

ram29jackson
05-04-2011, 05:16 PM
high-medium or low. Does that mean there are only 3 animations ?

psusnoop
05-04-2011, 05:18 PM
No problem OB, understand completely.

I was just sifting around the boards trying to find out if someone asked about pancake blocks by the Offensive lineman. Can anyone say if they noticed in the Play Now games whether there seemed to be any or not? I like many noticed the stats never really showing many thus it was difficult (not impossible) to get a stud Olineman any awards.

ram29jackson
05-04-2011, 05:22 PM
one thing people dont like is alot of animations are/seem scripted with EA.

a concern with the dive catches is it happening when you least/dont need it. Need a late TD, your receiver is open and even though he didnt need to, he dives anyway and it kills the play ...?

steelerfan
05-04-2011, 05:24 PM
Snoop, I play DT or DE exclusively (not MLB). I don't remember seeing this move, but I definitely got pancaked from time to time. I'll look out for this in a couple weeks.

I did notice that the user d-line moves (swim etc) were a bit overpowered, but that was in my feedback in April.

psusnoop
05-04-2011, 05:28 PM
Snoop, I play DT or DE exclusively (not MLB). I don't remember seeing this move, but I definitely got pancaked from time to time. I'll look out for this in a couple weeks.

I did notice that the user d-line moves (swim etc) were a bit overpowered, but that was in my feedback in April.

That is cool about the pancakes. Glad that they are back in the game.

I thought I remembered that about the Dline. I just wasn't sure if they added a button for the Bull Rush or if it triggered automatically.

texacotea
05-04-2011, 05:34 PM
I didnt see one receiver catch the ball with their hands.

PeteyKirch
05-04-2011, 05:48 PM
Yeah, I've never really seen linemen pushed down like that. I've seen the opposite of a d-lineman being pancaked but never an o-lineman pushed down on the ground like a child.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4130/5107546779_69de7485d2_z_d.jpg


Sadly it happens.

Deuce
05-04-2011, 05:51 PM
I like the pancakes...they don't seem bad at all.

As for the dives...let me save you the suspense. There will be plays where the receiver dives and doesn't need to. I will say though, I've seen this in real life as well. Hopefully it's seldom and not frequent.

souljahbill
05-04-2011, 06:09 PM
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4130/5107546779_69de7485d2_z_d.jpg


Sadly it happens.

I'm sure it does but how often does that happen, especially in the manner shown in the new video.

PeteyKirch
05-04-2011, 06:17 PM
I'm sure it does but how often does that happen, especially in the manner shown in the new video.

Well, being a Rutgers fan, happened to Art Forst about 6-8 times a game.

Rudy
05-04-2011, 06:17 PM
Cutting animations at 42 and 49 seconds look fantastic!

Those did look good. I'll hold out hope that change of direction won't be as quick as in the past.

I don't like these bull rush animations. One of the problems last year was the abundance of tackles for loss and this was a huge problem for the cpu running the spread-option offense. I want to get away from this engage system where the loser ends up on their back. I can only hope it's implemented properly.

souljahbill
05-04-2011, 06:18 PM
Well, being a Rutgers fan, happened to Art Forst about 6-8 times a game.

LOL! :D

PeteyKirch
05-04-2011, 06:25 PM
LOL! :D

I just don't understand how a 6'8 320lb OL can be so weak. He was too slow to play Tackle and too big to play Guard.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1422/5108144918_0ae6234293_z_d.jpg

CLW
05-04-2011, 06:44 PM
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4130/5107546779_69de7485d2_z_d.jpg


Sadly it happens.


Well, being a Rutgers fan, happened to Art Forst about 6-8 times a game.


LOL! :D


I just don't understand how a 6'8 320lb OL can be so weak. He was too slow to play Tackle and too big to play Guard.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1422/5108144918_0ae6234293_z_d.jpg

Oh it happens at more places than just Rutgers. I think they took that animation straight from a Duke game. :nod:

Tarhead10
05-04-2011, 06:46 PM
I like the bull rush too, however I hope they tone it down some, so its not like something that happens like every other play...not realistic...

souljahbill
05-04-2011, 07:06 PM
I just don't understand how a 6'8 320lb OL can be so weak. He was too slow to play Tackle and too big to play Guard.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1422/5108144918_0ae6234293_z_d.jpg


Oh it happens at more places than just Rutgers. I think they took that animation straight from a Duke game. :nod:

I stand corrected. :D

CLW
05-04-2011, 07:12 PM
I stand corrected. :D

Sad but true. However, I like the rest of you hope that that animation is VERY infrequent perhaps 5 times a game if you are COMPLETELY over matched (Duke @ Oklahoma) and perhaps 1-2 times per game if the teams are even (Duke v. Any JV HS Team) :nod:

Perhaps, our Game Changers can enlighten us on how frequently this Bull Rush animation where the o-line gets destroyed happens. Also, I think it would be nice if there was an animation similar to it where the o-lineman and d-lineman both fell to the ground as sort of a draw. I think it will get old quickly if this animation occurs too frequently and 1/2 of your o-line is laying flat on their butts.

JeffHCross
05-04-2011, 07:27 PM
So community day guys, what were your thoughts on this during play now games? Did you notice this happening with much frequency?All I can say is that while defensive lineman were over-powered in April, it was almost primarily due to user control. I do not recall any immediate knockdowns from my CPU lineman, and certainly not as common as portrayed in the video.

I did comment in April that I thought d-lineman user control was too easy, and I plan to look at it closely if I return in May.

Sad but true. However, I like the rest of you hope that that animation is VERY infrequent perhaps 5 times a game if you are COMPLETELY over matched (Duke @ Oklahoma) and perhaps 1-2 times per game if the teams are even (Duke v. Any JV HS Team) :nod:

Perhaps, our Game Changers can enlighten us on how frequently this Bull Rush animation where the o-line gets destroyed happens.I play exclusively with D-Linemen, and I honestly don't remember it happening once. Now, part of that is that I don't use the Bull Rush on the DL Stick, so I may have been making it so it wouldn't happen (since I was trying to Swim/Rip exclusively). Now, the important part of this is that I don't remember seeing a CPU lineman doing it a single time. I'm definitely going to look at it, a lot, if I'm able to go back in May. I plan to spend a lot of time with all aspects of the pass rush.

psusnoop
05-04-2011, 07:44 PM
Thanks guys I remembered all of you said that the DLine was overpowerful but I didn't remember seeing bull rush as the problem. It is nice because it shouldn't been seen often like CLW said.

Looking forward to seeing a liitle more vids of the trench interactions.

MtneerManiac
05-04-2011, 07:48 PM
The WR stuff is okay, but that DL stuff?

That is absolutely, positively, gang green crotch rot horrible. I'm embarrassed for them. And what makes it even worse is you have a dev sitting there in that video acting like it's awesome. That's TERRIBLE. You'll never see that kind of bullcrap in real life, yet I garuntee you it'll happen multiple times a game. Rutgers had one of the worst offensive lines in the nation last year, so that's not so great of an example. With goods teams, guys get beat because of lazy footwork and getting out techniques, not because they get pushed down on the ground like a three year old.

Somebody really needs to go into that dev team with actual football experience to lead these guys and direct them. That BS animation is shameful.

As AVGN likes to say, "WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?"

http://i551.photobucket.com/albums/ii452/bluecynder/Animated%20GIFS/avgnmiddlefinger.gif

Rudy
05-04-2011, 07:54 PM
All I can say is that while defensive lineman were over-powered in April, it was almost primarily due to user control. I do not recall any immediate knockdowns from my CPU lineman, and certainly not as common as portrayed in the video.

I did comment in April that I thought d-lineman user control was too easy, and I plan to look at it closely if I return in May.

That's a tough thing to balance. Sliders can only affect things globally. If it's too easy to rush the passer then you can turn down the pass rush but it may make your cpu teammates useless. Short of another slider for user cpu DL pass rush (extremely doubtful) it will be entirely on the dev team to fine-tune this properly for each difficulty level.

xGRIDIRONxGURUx
05-04-2011, 08:57 PM
im sorry... there really isnt much of a way to be constructive about the bull rush... if a true kick step animation is done and thats what they base the interaction off of, then honestly, that should not happen but MAYBE MAYBE twice in a whole season... other than that solid spins, good rips/swims are what will get the guy to the QB or a just flat out burner off the edge getting the leverage and pushing the outside shoulder over top of the kick step foot, then and ONLY THEN are you possibly going to see the guy bite the dust...

i hope they keep it in, but i hope they turn the dial WAYYY WAYYY WAYYY down on that...

other than that, im glad to see the diving catches, looks great, and actually i like that they may dive when they dont need to, as sometimes its easy to lose where you are on the field... IT HAPPENS... "if its in the game... its in the game"... (minus the bullrush in the video lol) but i am VERY VERY pleased with everything else so far...

"E"

steelerfan
05-04-2011, 09:13 PM
The WR stuff is okay, but that DL stuff?

That is absolutely, positively, gang green crotch rot horrible. I'm embarrassed for them. And what makes it even worse is you have a dev sitting there in that video acting like it's awesome. That's TERRIBLE. You'll never see that kind of bullcrap in real life, yet I garuntee you it'll happen multiple times a game. Rutgers had one of the worst offensive lines in the nation last year, so that's not so great of an example. With goods teams, guys get beat because of lazy footwork and getting out techniques, not because they get pushed down on the ground like a three year old.

Somebody really needs to go into that dev team with actual football experience to lead these guys and direct them. That BS animation is shameful.

As AVGN likes to say, "WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?"

Get your head out of your ass. The point of the video is to show that it can happen. Do you expect them to show you 5 hours of footage and you only see it once? I have played the game for 40-60 hours and I don't recall ever seeing it.

And your comment about the dev team is among the most ignorant comments I've ever read here. There are guys on that dev team that could talk circles around you and who have played college football at an extremely high level. Just a week before I was at EA in January, a very high profile OC (NFL and NCAA) was there with their playbook guru. These guys know their shit.

If you don't like the animation, or have concerns about it's implementation, that's fine. If you don't like the way the game plays - fine. But, I for one, will not sit back while you perpetuate that kind of absolute bullshit.

baseballplyrmvp
05-04-2011, 09:24 PM
would the bull rush animation be considered one of those animations that would only occur for like a 90+ power move rating? i think its been said on here, that the same thing goes for other ratings too like spectacular catch---once you get to 90+ in that rating, you unlock the elite animations. is that most likely the case here?

souljahbill
05-04-2011, 09:31 PM
The WR stuff is okay, but that DL stuff?

That is absolutely, positively, gang green crotch rot horrible. I'm embarrassed for them. And what makes it even worse is you have a dev sitting there in that video acting like it's awesome. That's TERRIBLE. You'll never see that kind of bullcrap in real life, yet I garuntee you it'll happen multiple times a game. Rutgers had one of the worst offensive lines in the nation last year, so that's not so great of an example. With goods teams, guys get beat because of lazy footwork and getting out techniques, not because they get pushed down on the ground like a three year old.

Somebody really needs to go into that dev team with actual football experience to lead these guys and direct them. That BS animation is shameful.

As AVGN likes to say, "WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?"

http://i551.photobucket.com/albums/ii452/bluecynder/Animated%20GIFS/avgnmiddlefinger.gif


Get your head out of your ass. The point of the video is to show that it can happen. Do you expect them to show you 5 hours of footage and you only see it once? I have played the game for 40-60 hours and I don't recall ever seeing it.

And your comment about the dev team is among the most ignorant comments I've ever read here. There are guys on that dev team that could talk circles around you and who have played college football at an extremely high level. Just a week before I was at EA in January, a very high profile OC (NFL and NCAA) was there with their playbook guru. These guys know their shit.

If you don't like the animation, or have concerns about it's implementation, that's fine. If you don't like the way the game plays - fine. But, I for one, will not sit back while you perpetuate that kind of absolute bullshit.:popcorn:

Jayrah
05-04-2011, 09:47 PM
That animation is not terrible at all! As long as the DT has a very high Power Rating, that's a good move! I've seen it MANY times. It won't happen that often hopefully, and hopefully there is an offensive move that combats it from an animation standpoint. But seriously, that's not a terrible move. You guys are overreacting :D

Pokes404
05-04-2011, 09:54 PM
Get your head out of your ass. The point of the video is to show that it can happen. Do you expect them to show you 5 hours of footage and you only see it once? I have played the game for 40-60 hours and I don't recall ever seeing it.

And your comment about the dev team is among the most ignorant comments I've ever read here. There are guys on that dev team that could talk circles around you and who have played college football at an extremely high level. Just a week before I was at EA in January, a very high profile OC (NFL and NCAA) was there with their playbook guru. These guys know their shit.

If you don't like the animation, or have concerns about it's implementation, that's fine. If you don't like the way the game plays - fine. But, I for one, will not sit back while you perpetuate that kind of absolute bullshit.

What's worrisome is that there weren't any clips of the defensive lineman bull rushing a blocker and driving him into the backfield. All they showed was the blocker getting totally flattened. That just doesn't happen very often, even with elite linemen. I love the idea of the bull rush, but the blocker should be able to keep his feet most of the time. Yes, he's going to be driven into the backfield (which will likely result in blowing up the play), but at least he's still engaged and giving the QB/RB a chance to make a play. That is a much more frequent, and realistic, scenario. This looks like EA, once again, going way overboard with something. And for those of us that complain about "scripted" outcomes and a lack of organic gameplay, this is exactly what we're talking about.

I will withhold final judgement until we see actual gameplay videos. Until then, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. However, EA is walking dangerous ground here. This not only needs to be tuned correctly, but there needs to be far more animations of the blocker being driven back than animations of the blocker being laid out. Those clips in the video look like something that belongs in NFL Blitz, not a game that touts itself as a football "simulation."

I have no doubt that the devs know football, but for whatever reason, a lot of the physics and fundamentals of the game are not being expressed in this game.

Cipher 8
05-04-2011, 09:58 PM
I'm sure it does but how often does that happen, especially in the manner shown in the new video. Just because they showed it a couple times in the video doesn't mean it's going to happen all the time in the game. This was highlighting the new animations. Of course they are going to show them in game and it probably took them alot of play throughs to collect that footage. That or they just put the best d-lineman with power moves up against the worst lineman with no stats just to get the animation to happen.:dunno:

Jayrah
05-04-2011, 09:59 PM
:popcorn:
hahahahaahahahahaahaha
:d:d:d

cdj
05-04-2011, 10:06 PM
I'll let the other guys give their thoughts as well, but I rarely saw this animation.

Tarhead10
05-04-2011, 10:26 PM
Also looking at these videos man the crowd really does pop this year, thats nice... Also looks like these videos were taken from newer build cause it seems that Alabama now has grey facemasks instead of that faded looking white, nice....

JeffHCross
05-04-2011, 10:37 PM
And what makes it even worse is you have a dev sitting there in that video acting like it's awesome.Think about this for a second. I agree with you that it looks bad. But they were highlighting the new bull rush moves. Of course they're going to show it off. That's the point. There's no reason, in a video highlighting bull rush, to show a DT getting blocked. None. That'd be like doing an "action trailer" for Lord of the Rings and showing nothing but Gandalf looking at a butterfly.

yet I garuntee you it'll happen multiple times a game.Didn't see it once.

That BS animation is shameful.As is the automatic assumption that they don't know what they're talking about or what they're doing because you disagree with a video.


That's a tough thing to balance. Sliders can only affect things globally.Sliders, yes. But I'm not going to be asking them to adjust the sliders, if I think the pass rush isn't right. They have much, much more precise control over things than we do with Sliders.


What's worrisome is that there weren't any clips of the defensive lineman bull rushing a blocker and driving him into the backfield.This I agree with. I'd much rather see a "sled"-like animation with a pocket collapsing.

steelerfan
05-04-2011, 11:13 PM
What's worrisome is that there weren't any clips of the defensive lineman bull rushing a blocker and driving him into the backfield. All they showed was the blocker getting totally flattened. That just doesn't happen very often, even with elite linemen. I love the idea of the bull rush, but the blocker should be able to keep his feet most of the time. Yes, he's going to be driven into the backfield (which will likely result in blowing up the play), but at least he's still engaged and giving the QB/RB a chance to make a play. That is a much more frequent, and realistic, scenario. This looks like EA, once again, going way overboard with something. And for those of us that complain about "scripted" outcomes and a lack of organic gameplay, this is exactly what we're talking about.

I will withhold final judgement until we see actual gameplay videos. Until then, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. However, EA is walking dangerous ground here. This not only needs to be tuned correctly, but there needs to be far more animations of the blocker being driven back than animations of the blocker being laid out. Those clips in the video look like something that belongs in NFL Blitz, not a game that touts itself as a football "simulation."

I have no doubt that the devs know football, but for whatever reason, a lot of the physics and fundamentals of the game are not being expressed in this game.

Like I said, if you don't like the animation, or worry about it's implementation, that's fine. I'm not worried about it because when I saw that video, it was the first time I'd ever seen the animation. I'll be on the lookout for it in 2 weeks.

Jayrah
05-05-2011, 12:22 AM
Also looking at these videos man the crowd really does pop this year, thats nice... Also looks like these videos were taken from newer build cause it seems that Alabama now has grey facemasks instead of that faded looking white, nice....

Can't see it very well but the last route in this video does show a defender in the background, a safety if I'm seeing that right. He does NOT slide like the zone coverage video shows. He shuffles in what I see as a more realistic fashion. Also the defenders run in a more realistic fashion. Again, tough to see but it seems like weight and cutting is better in this video than the other from both offense and defense. It would make sense because the zone was one of the first things they implemented most likely, while the mo-cap stuff would've come later.

Also, there were only 3 bull-rush moves shown. From different angles. So I don't think it's one of those prevalent moves that just anyone can do. Also look at the two teams involved in each scene. I believe those 3 players are very highly rated defensive players.

brza37
05-05-2011, 04:06 AM
This I agree with. I'd much rather see a "sled"-like animation with a pocket collapsing.

Do you think there is still enough time to get an animation like this into the game? Please ask them if they have this type of animation already in but just chose not to highlight it in the video. The Bull Rush (the sled-like form) would be a huge step toward correctly formed pockets. Hopefully we get more of that and less of the reverse pancake look.

CLW
05-05-2011, 06:17 AM
Well judging from this and other sites. The Bull Rush has scared quite a high % of folks. I'll obviously hold the ultimate conclusion for the demo but I think it is definitely something you guys going in May should pay close attention to as some people seem really upset about OL just getting creamed.

#1 How often does the "cream" animation occur

#2 Are there any other Bull Rush animations - i.e. DL pushes OL back collapsing the pocket but OL stays on his feet; DL pushes OL down but the DL also falls down in the process; DL tries Bull Rush but OL successfully blocks the move etc...

oweb26
05-05-2011, 07:57 AM
Wow who would have thought a short clip can cause such a stir. The Other Site is in a big frenzy right now, this is some of the best reading I have done in awhile, Glad to see it came be tamed down a bit and brought back into perspective, great job SteelerFan.

PS. Soulja that was the best timing ever for the use of the popcorn movie animation. LOL

psuexv
05-05-2011, 08:59 AM
:popcorn:

My vote for best use of an emoticon.....EVER

MCdonnieG
05-05-2011, 08:59 AM
I'm loving both of the new animations...bull rush especially...we've been long overdue for this animations...now when I have a 99 OVR DE with 95 PWR Rush Skill, he'll act accordingly!! Nice!!! Reading the comments earlier about bull rushes rarely happening! Ha I guess you guys missed the NFL Draft huh?!? It was filled with "bull rushing" professional!! I wonder though...how many diving variations/animations did they make? Seeing as though they mentioned a high dive and a low dive...I would hope that there are different variations to a high dive as well as a low dive...if not it could be a little repetitive ala scripted tackles. Nothing big though...wishing these videos could be a taaaadd bit longer!!

xGRIDIRONxGURUx
05-05-2011, 09:09 AM
It was filled with "bull rushing" professional!!

the point everyone is making is not that bull rushing doesnt exist... just that a good bull rush a hard speed rush at the backfield shoulder... nobody bull rushes square to the chest... unless they are responsible for the edge and inside gap on a backside heavy blitz away from them... dont confuse what were saying, we agree with you just the representation could be better...

"E"

kindella2
05-05-2011, 09:17 AM
I like it the animation because i know that if done properly it would be great add to the game but the problem that i (and clearly others) see is that it will end up being overused by the CPU AI and under used (almost never happening) by Humans who control the DE/DT.

The reason people feel are scared is because there have been animations like this before that have killed the experience for some.

CLW
05-05-2011, 09:54 AM
Sort of a "play now" question I suppose but what is the button press needed to trigger a Bull Rush attempt if you are using a DL?

MCdonnieG
05-05-2011, 09:57 AM
the point everyone is making is not that bull rushing doesnt exist... just that a good bull rush a hard speed rush at the backfield shoulder... nobody bull rushes square to the chest... unless they are responsible for the edge and inside gap on a backside heavy blitz away from them... dont confuse what were saying, we agree with you just the representation could be better...

"E"

As of right now...the representation of the "bull rush" is fine in my eyes. I mean we didn't even have this animation last year. So I'm not gonna complain too much about whether or not the DE jammed the OLmen's right/left shoulder to initiate the bull rush. Plus...I've seen OLmen get bull rushed from DE's initially punching square to the chest and driving straight through them...the ending result is a "reverse pancake"! It happens...might not be often but it happens.

JBHuskers
05-05-2011, 11:28 AM
Do you think there is still enough time to get an animation like this into the game? Please ask them if they have this type of animation already in but just chose not to highlight it in the video. The Bull Rush (the sled-like form) would be a huge step toward correctly formed pockets. Hopefully we get more of that and less of the reverse pancake look.

Unfortunately no, we're past the data freeze for NCAA 12.

JBHuskers
05-05-2011, 11:29 AM
My vote for best use of an emoticon.....EVER

:fp:

:D

morsdraconis
05-05-2011, 12:07 PM
As of right now...the representation of the "bull rush" is fine in my eyes. I mean we didn't even have this animation last year. So I'm not gonna complain too much about whether or not the DE jammed the OLmen's right/left shoulder to initiate the bull rush. Plus...I've seen OLmen get bull rushed from DE's initially punching square to the chest and driving straight through them...the ending result is a "reverse pancake"! It happens...might not be often but it happens.

And, 99 out of a 100, the offensive lineman drags the defender down with him and gets called for holding. If this animation happens (like in the video of the offensive lineman trying to pull the defender down as well but failing) and it's not called holding, I would be very pissed off.

WolverineJay
05-05-2011, 12:34 PM
As of right now...the representation of the "bull rush" is fine in my eyes. I mean we didn't even have this animation last year. So I'm not gonna complain too much about whether or not the DE jammed the OLmen's right/left shoulder to initiate the bull rush. Plus...I've seen OLmen get bull rushed from DE's initially punching square to the chest and driving straight through them...the ending result is a "reverse pancake"! It happens...might not be often but it happens.

I will just agree to disagree since it looks the direct opposite of fine to me. I wish these arcade animations were just left completely out, but I understand why they put them in and who those over the top animations are geared mostly for in NCAA and so goes the folly of trying to make a game that is appealing to both arcade and sim players. I want a 100% real simulation and that's never going to happen, but I still want to get my virtual college football fix so I take the good with the bad just wish that they took out more and more of the bad every year rather than add to it like the push down bull rush (which I have never seen happen in real life the way it is depicted in the game).


And, 99 out of a 100, the offensive lineman drags the defender down with him and gets called for holding. If this animation happens (like in the video of the offensive lineman trying to pull the defender down as well but failing) and it's not called holding, I would be very pissed off.

I seriously doubt that holding will be called in those situations while playing NCAA 12. Both the Madden and NCAA games have had the same holding animation for years.

xGRIDIRONxGURUx
05-05-2011, 01:32 PM
ill drop this topic after this, but if you see a bull rush, and the DE is working the middle of the chest and pushing, then you have a good OT, who has got the depth and leverage needed to hold off the outside, if he has him locked in his chest, then he can give ground because at that point, technically, the DE is owned... if the OT does slip he will pull down the DE in a holding call putting on his best performance to try and not draw a flag...

if you dont understand the footwork then that animation looks great, if you do understand it, then that leaves a lot to be desired... BUT, again, if thats the first time the event guys have seen it, i could care LESS about it... especially if they read the reactions of everyone, it will be dialed down and we can know that its IN THE GAME but like real life it will be a rare occasion and even something that would be featured in some highlights for OD's and such...

"E"

steelerfan
05-05-2011, 03:20 PM
That's a fair assessment, guru. As I've said, if you don't like the animation, that is fine. I will definitely be looking for it in 2 weeks. If it is prevalent, I will speak loudly against it.

JBHuskers
05-05-2011, 03:24 PM
It's just funny to see people completely go ape shit over this. Basically just fuel for those who like to pile on, and probably don't play the game.

JBHuskers
05-05-2011, 03:39 PM
Also looking at these videos man the crowd really does pop this year, thats nice... Also looks like these videos were taken from newer build cause it seems that Alabama now has grey facemasks instead of that faded looking white, nice....

Yeah you can definitely see it when you're trying to take screen shots, there is quite the difference in the crowd this year. Now if they would just update the sidelines....

razorback44
05-05-2011, 04:20 PM
Think about this for a second. I agree with you that it looks bad. But they were highlighting the new bull rush moves. Of course they're going to show it off. That's the point. There's no reason, in a video highlighting bull rush, to show a DT getting blocked. None. That'd be like doing an "action trailer" for Lord of the Rings and showing nothing but Gandalf looking at a butterfly.
This made me http://www.tigerdroppings.com/Images/Icons/Iconrotflmao.gif

Well played. http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Drinks/drinking-43.gif

Rudy
05-05-2011, 04:56 PM
What I would like to see more of it less of the pancake type of DL moves or the move where a DL just blows by an OL. I'd like to see more situations where the players stay engaged but the DL just pushes the OL in a direction favourable to him and vice versa. A DL doesn't have to knock over an OL or run around him to make a big play. Sometimes just pushing them back a few yards (and not stopping) or getting in the designed lane causes havoc.

cdj
05-05-2011, 07:26 PM
Sort of a "play now" question I suppose but what is the button press needed to trigger a Bull Rush attempt if you are using a DL?

I believe JHC saw it more than I did, so maybe he knows the answer to this one.

I agree with the base sentiment expressed - if overdone, this could be a big issue. Though, we will have to find out how often and what exactly triggers it. This may fall under the community wish for dominant defensive linemen to play as such - maybe only highly rated DL can pull it off? (Or those with X rating discrepancy versus OL?) Hopefully it is relatively rare in frequency. I'm fairly certain it is, but I can definitely understand the concern...and you never know what online cheesers may find to try and exploit new animations and moves.

souljahbill
05-05-2011, 07:29 PM
Has anyone ever seen this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc9L4PYXM_U&feature=player_embedded

Deuce
05-05-2011, 07:39 PM
Has anyone ever seen this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc9L4PYXM_U&feature=player_embedded

I think Brenkus could take him...he just had bad technique. Ha ha

Jayrah
05-05-2011, 10:16 PM
I believe JHC saw it more than I did, so maybe he knows the answer to this one.

I agree with the base sentiment expressed - if overdone, this could be a big issue. Though, we will have to find out how often and what exactly triggers it. This may fall under the community wish for dominant defensive linemen to play as such - maybe only highly rated DL can pull it off? (Or those with X rating discrepancy versus OL?) Hopefully it is relatively rare in frequency. I'm fairly certain it is, but I can definitely understand the concern...and you never know what online cheesers may find to try and exploit new animations and moves.

:clap:
__________________________________________________ _______________________

You're absolutely right. We continue to complain that there is absolutely no difference between a big, dominant D-lineman and a mediocre one. Also we just talked about (like 3 weeks ago), how the qbs have WAY too much time in the pocket. These are animations that imo are in direct response, and honestly a decent addition to address those 2 complaints, and I would've thought these would be widely praised with the added removal of suction. Ok, so an offensive lineman doesn't necessarily end up on the ground every time, but a power bull rush like that happens over and over and over again where the O-lineman might as well be on the ground! He will just get shoved aside (just as quickly and violently as the animation suggests, but without the lineman falling to the ground) and BOOM! Qb's done.

YES, the addition of a lineman who stays engaged but gets dominated into the lap of the qb needs to happen. But this is a GREAT start to me. It addresses the issue of too much time for the qb AND hopefully if only a dominant d-lineman can accomplish these moves against mediocre o-linemen, it will address the d-linemen having an impact. Even if it happens multiple times a game it's a way to show that the guy is having a dominant impact on the game, as he should. If there are several different added animations for 13 that do the same thing without putting the o-lineman on the ground that will be awesome awesome awesome.

Also, again, the d-linemen in the video ARE dominant d-linemen. And there are only 3 different plays shown in the 5 clips. 2 of them are shown from a different angle. Also, in all the clips we've seen so far leading up to this video, it didn't happen. Normally these new animations at least pop up and we pick them out of a presentation video and we say "OMG did you see that d-lineman throw that guy out of the way????, that's NEW!"

brza37
05-06-2011, 04:13 AM
Has anyone ever seen this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc9L4PYXM_U&feature=player_embedded

I wanna see the Sport Science episode for New Player. That dudes a beast! All the scouts said he's too small, too weak, too slow and couldn't tell you the difference between a pulling guard and tugging rope. He's been penting up all that rage over those remarks for years and at about the 4:00 mark he unleashed all that on Suh :D

Seriously, I'm excited for both NCAA12 and M12 for the first time in a loong time but man these 12 rated OL manhandling defensive studs has got to be fixed soon :fp:

whitepony99
05-06-2011, 07:37 AM
A little food for thought guys



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH5sb320kaw&feature=related

souljahbill
05-06-2011, 08:02 AM
Has anyone ever seen this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc9L4PYXM_U&feature=player_embedded


A little food for thought guys


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH5sb320kaw&feature=related

This very section is at the end of the Madden video I posted.

whitepony99
05-06-2011, 08:10 AM
And another but notice in both videos leverage is key



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn2svE2Aw7A&feature=related

CLW
05-06-2011, 08:18 AM
Yes its silly that Madden/NCAA doesn't make it to where Suh destroys people like me 5 foot nothing 160 lbs guys.

However, that is NOT what we saw in the video. We saw DL throwing down another 6 foot something 300 lb guy like he was 160 lbs.

Example #1 in the video was: Brandon Lindsey (6'2" 250 lb DE) a reserve last season v. Justin Pugh from Syracuse (6'6" 299 lb T) Junior who was 2nd Team All Big-East last season starting in all 13 games.

http://www.pittsburghpanthers.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/lindsey_brandon00.html

http://suathletics.syr.edu/roster.aspx?rp_id=8236&path=football


Example #2 was David King of Oklahoma (6'4" 258 LB DE) who up to this point hasn't played a ton v. Jake Mathews of Texas A&M (6'5" 295 lb T) also fairly inexperienced.

http://www.soonersports.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/king_david00.html


http://www.aggieathletics.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/matthews_jake00.html


Example #3 is Darrington Sentimore of Alabama (6'3" 273 lbs DE) v. John Sullen of Auburn (6'6" 336 lbs)


http://www.rolltide.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/sentimore_darrington00.html


http://auburntigers.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/sullen_john00.html



Now, I'm not saying that it isn't out of the realm of possibility that any of those DL could throw down any of those OL. However, unless I am mistaken I am not seeing any serious mismatches. I.e. a 1st Team All-American / likely 1st Round NFL pick / stud v. a below average college offensive lineman. Basically, these are fairly even matchups being shown where the DL blows up the OL. Now does that happen IRL? Yes. However, I don't think it happens like that all that often and we should IMHO see allot more "draws" where the one of the following occurs: (1) DL knocks OL down but both fall in the process; (2) DL pushes back the OL but the OL stays up on his feet; (3) OL blocks the bull rush attempt and the DL falls down or is stopped.

souljahbill
05-06-2011, 08:23 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAzvrSZ3_8E

whitepony99
05-06-2011, 08:25 AM
You didnt watch the videos good enough then, they said at the impact and velocities they got he could launch a 6'6'' 316 lb lineman 2 feet.

souljahbill
05-06-2011, 08:27 AM
I'm sure EA is going to stick to marketing strategy but I bet a couple of people are ready to drop the dynasty/RTG news to provide a distraction from the last couple of videos (sliding zone coverage/ultimate bull rush).

JBHuskers
05-06-2011, 08:42 AM
Been a while since I put out a tease :D

But there is still a GOOD amount of stuff to cover yet.

CLW
05-06-2011, 08:44 AM
You didnt watch the videos good enough then, they said at the impact and velocities they got he could launch a 6'6'' 316 lb lineman 2 feet.

Yes if that lineman gave the same poor form/leverage and lost his balance I am sure Suh could throw him 2 feet. However, these OL are also putting out a tremendous amount of force/energy too and have much better footwork/balance/technique that Sports Science Guy. Again, can it/does it happen IRL. Yes. However, balance/the frequency is key.

ryby6969
05-06-2011, 08:50 AM
Sorry Bill, but that video is a bad example. The O-lineman is looking at the DE and is backpedaling and all of a sudden he is hit by a LB with a 5-7 yard head start from the side. The bull rush video is man on man from a 3 point stance. You rarely see this kind of thing in pop warner football, let alone D-1 college football. The only time you see something that is even close to this is if the DL jumps offsides and the OL doesn't come out of his stance. As long as it doesn't happen much,(maybe once a game if that) I won't care too much. Now, if I have a AA OL getting pancaked by a DL from "sisters of the poor" college, then I will be kinda pissed. I am just looking forward to what the CD guys have to say when they get back.

psusnoop
05-06-2011, 10:23 AM
Been a while since I put out a tease :D

But there is still a GOOD amount of stuff to cover yet.

Sorry unless your talking about a bull rush that just isn't good enough. I kid, I kid.... :D:D

xGRIDIRONxGURUx
05-06-2011, 10:26 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAzvrSZ3_8E

that video doesnt relate to the animations were seeing, the OT engages the DE just before the LB hits him from the side...

"E"

souljahbill
05-06-2011, 11:33 AM
Sorry Bill, but that video is a bad example. The O-lineman is looking at the DE and is backpedaling and all of a sudden he is hit by a LB with a 5-7 yard head start from the side. The bull rush video is man on man from a 3 point stance. You rarely see this kind of thing in pop warner football, let alone D-1 college football. The only time you see something that is even close to this is if the DL jumps offsides and the OL doesn't come out of his stance. As long as it doesn't happen much,(maybe once a game if that) I won't care too much. Now, if I have a AA OL getting pancaked by a DL from "sisters of the poor" college, then I will be kinda pissed. I am just looking forward to what the CD guys have to say when they get back.


that video doesnt relate to the animations were seeing, the OT engages the DE just before the LB hits him from the side...

"E"

I didn't post the video to "excuse" the animation. In fact, I'm one of the naysayers on this issue.


Yeah, I've never really seen linemen pushed down like that. I've seen the opposite of a d-lineman being pancaked but never an o-lineman pushed down on the ground like a child.

I only did it's the only example I've ever seen of a lineman getting blown up and like you guys said, it wasn't a lineman starting from the ground exploding into the o-lineman but rather a linebacker coming in like a train on an unsuspecting lineman.

ryby6969
05-06-2011, 12:28 PM
That makes more sense.

whitepony99
05-06-2011, 04:59 PM
Yes if that lineman gave the same poor form/leverage and lost his balance I am sure Suh could throw him 2 feet. However, these OL are also putting out a tremendous amount of force/energy too and have much better footwork/balance/technique that Sports Science Guy. Again, can it/does it happen IRL. Yes. However, balance/the frequency is key.

Leverage is key low man wins and if you watch a lineman pass blocking they get sloppy in there use of leverage which is when you see a guy like Suh jack them up.

I OU a Beatn
05-06-2011, 06:12 PM
I personally couldn't give two shits about the bull rush. I'd much rather have an overpowered pass rush(if that turns out to be the case) than the pass rush that has been in the last 3 games, which is pretty close to zero. It's much, much easier to account for an overpowered pass rush than one that doesn't exist, so if EA has to incorporate some unrealistic move(if it turns out to be unrealistic) to increase the effectiveness of the pass rush, I'm 100% all for it.

I've grown tired of watching these little bitches sit in the pocket for 12 seconds and just waiting for their receiver to run a streak, end their route, come back and be open for a guaranteed 20+ yard gain.

Cipher 8
05-06-2011, 08:49 PM
You're absolutely right. We continue to complain that there is absolutely no difference between a big, dominant D-lineman and a mediocre one.
Yeah I actually like this animation. I'm not one to nitpick about small details but I understand why there are a lot that do. I still think this won't be seen every other play and people got the wrong notion about this happening a lot because it was shown a couple times in video showcasing the animations.


My vote for best use of an emoticon.....EVER

I concur.

whitepony99
05-06-2011, 09:04 PM
I personally couldn't give two shits about the bull rush. I'd much rather have an overpowered pass rush(if that turns out to be the case) than the pass rush that has been in the last 3 games, which is pretty close to zero. It's much, much easier to account for an overpowered pass rush than one that doesn't exist, so if EA has to incorporate some unrealistic move(if it turns out to be unrealistic) to increase the effectiveness of the pass rush, I'm 100% all for it.

I've grown tired of watching these little bitches sit in the pocket for 12 seconds and just waiting for their receiver to run a streak, end their route, come back and be open for a guaranteed 20+ yard gain.


I agree

souljahbill
05-06-2011, 09:25 PM
I must be playing the wrong game because I never have time so sit in the pocket. If I don't make a decision quickly, my QB is getting smashed, even with a good O-line. The computer gets waaaay more time then I do, even when my D-line is set to aggressive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Rudy
05-07-2011, 06:44 AM
I must be playing the wrong game because I never have time so sit in the pocket. If I don't make a decision quickly, my QB is getting smashed, even with a good O-line. The computer gets waaaay more time then I do, even when my D-line is set to aggressive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think most of the complaints about no pass rush are related to online ranked games which is on AA and the users have a lot of time. Playing on AA or Heisman offline against the cpu is not an issue imo. Slider adjustments can be used to adjust to whatever a person wants.

Oneback
05-07-2011, 07:44 AM
My biggest problem with the bull rush video is that it just looks bad. I mean quite honestly we've had this annimation before, the year jump the snap first entered the game, defensive tackles and ends would jump the snap and the blocker would end up on his back.

Now I am not saying this never happens in real life, but at the top levels of college football you will hardly ever see this.

With that being said here is what a bull rush is as described by Ron Vanderlinden the defensive coordinator at Penn State:


The bull rush is designed to drive the blocker into the quarterback. When executing a bull rush, the defensive lineman should accelerate across the line of scrimmage with leverage and should charge into one half of the surface of the blocker. He should drive his hands up through the blocker's breastplates, maintaining inside hand control. He should keep his feet moving and be relentless in his charge. The defensive lineman should always maintain a position of leverage on the blocker, which will allow the defensive lineman to continue to drive the pass blocker back and into the quarterback.

The swim technique canbe used after initially starting a bull rush. The blocker must be convinced that the pass rusher is on a bull rush charge, which will force the blocker to lunge and over extend forward to stop the bull rush. Once the blocker has over extended forward, the rusher should quickly pull the blocker forward, then drive his inside arm tightly over the surface of the blocker and replace the blocker's body with his own. He should then push off and accelerate to the quarterback.

The rip technique technique can also be used off of a bull rush start. The same coaching points described for the swim technique apply to the start of a rip rush. However, when the blocker lunges forward to stop the pass rusher's charge, instead of driving his arm tightly under the surface of the blocker, the rusher whould dip and rip his arm tightly under the surface of the blocker. As soon as the rusher clears the blocker, the rusher should replace the blocker's body with his own and should accelerate to the quarterback. The rusher may reload and execute the rip technique again if nexessary to come free. He could also convert his rip technique to a quick swim move. This is often a successful way to throw the blocker off balance and for the rusher to free himself up.

You will notice no where in there does it say charge directly into the blocker and he will fall down like a rag doll.

Pass rushing is much like a pitcher setting up a batter for a strikeout. In high school most of the really good defensive ends can get away with using the speed or bull rush because they are either that much faster or bigger and stronger than the blocker so you only need your fastball to get by the blocker.

Now in college you've got to add a secondary pitch. Those defensive ends that were able to speed rush in high school will now be riden in an arc right around the quarterback and those that only have a bull rush will get stopped as now the blocker is just as big and strong as the guy rushing him.

A secondary rush move just like adding a change-up or curve to your fastball will only make the fastball look better. A speed rusher will add a bull rush, as the blocker tries to reach the speed rush he will get further back in his stance to enable him to reach the speed rush. By adding a bull rush with the blocker further back in his stance the speed rusher now has an easier time getting the blocker off balance and pushing him back into the quarterback.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFs840cfbqc

The bull rusher like described above will add a swim or rip move to combat an over extended blocker.

Bull Rush


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4AdHCytc4o

Bull Jerk


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8htwCBIqhk

Hump Move (basically a rip and swim)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnBtK62cHsE

Defensive ends with two rush moves in college can be successful the really great ones have three or more.

xGRIDIRONxGURUx
05-07-2011, 08:17 AM
The bull rush is designed to drive the blocker into the quarterback. When executing a bull rush, the defensive lineman should accelerate across the line of scrimmage with leverage and should charge into one half of the surface of the blocker. He should drive his hands up through the blocker's breastplates, maintaining inside hand control. He should keep his feet moving and be relentless in his charge. The defensive lineman should always maintain a position of leverage on the blocker, which will allow the defensive lineman to continue to drive the pass blocker back and into the quarterback.

this is what i was referring to on attacking the kick step shoulder... outside leverage while keeping one hand in place for the club/swim or in place to be able to dip through for the rip... grab grass and go...

"E"

I OU a Beatn
05-07-2011, 10:59 AM
I must be playing the wrong game because I never have time so sit in the pocket. If I don't make a decision quickly, my QB is getting smashed, even with a good O-line. The computer gets waaaay more time then I do, even when my D-line is set to aggressive.

I'm talking about online against another human. In my 20 or so online games, I didn't punt a single time and a lot of that was due to the huge lack of pressure online. You would occasionally get a guy who was able to loop the DE and get in fairly quick, but that was easily negated by hot routing a RB to block or just running a play with a TE on that side. It's been that way for at least 3 years and it's ANNOYING. I'd MUCH rather deal with an overpowered pass rush. I'm very confident I can make my reads a lot quicker than the east room garbage I play so it shouldn't affect me as much.

Jayrah
05-07-2011, 11:55 AM
Meh. Imo you guys are a year ahead of the game. Now that suction has been removed and animations wait till contact, adding some real life concepts to the DL rush game becomes a possibility, but in the meantime this in-game concept will suffice.

xGRIDIRONxGURUx
05-07-2011, 01:57 PM
i think i am jumping the gun a tad on it, but it just annoys me... and ill say this a ton and i hate it... but the kids that i coach eat sleep and breathe this football game, they play madden some too, but i cant stand it when a kid sees crap on this game and wants to "use/do it" in real life...

"E"

jaymo76
05-07-2011, 03:48 PM
I personally couldn't give two shits about the bull rush. I'd much rather have an overpowered pass rush(if that turns out to be the case) than the pass rush that has been in the last 3 games, which is pretty close to zero. It's much, much easier to account for an overpowered pass rush than one that doesn't exist, so if EA has to incorporate some unrealistic move(if it turns out to be unrealistic) to increase the effectiveness of the pass rush, I'm 100% all for it.

I've grown tired of watching these little bitches sit in the pocket for 12 seconds and just waiting for their receiver to run a streak, end their route, come back and be open for a guaranteed 20+ yard gain.

Some good points there.

Pokes404
05-07-2011, 05:45 PM
I personally couldn't give two shits about the bull rush. I'd much rather have an overpowered pass rush(if that turns out to be the case) than the pass rush that has been in the last 3 games, which is pretty close to zero. It's much, much easier to account for an overpowered pass rush than one that doesn't exist, so if EA has to incorporate some unrealistic move(if it turns out to be unrealistic) to increase the effectiveness of the pass rush, I'm 100% all for it.

I've grown tired of watching these little bitches sit in the pocket for 12 seconds and just waiting for their receiver to run a streak, end their route, come back and be open for a guaranteed 20+ yard gain.

I have to disagree. Two wrongs don't make a right. I don't want a nonexistent pass rush, and I don't want an overpowered/unrealistic pass rush. I want football. Simple as that. A successful bull rush (95% of the time) should drive the blocker into the backfield and create disruption. It should not result in the blocker being laid out on the ground (except for those very rare instances). This may very well be the case. We won't really know until we either see actual gameplay footage or get our hands on the demo. I'm just trying to voice a word of caution to any devs that might be reading this that this needs to be done right.

I OU a Beatn
05-07-2011, 06:48 PM
I don't want either one, either, but I'm saying if I had to pick between an overpowered pass rush that gets in too quick or a pass rush that is non-existent, I'd much rather have the overpowered pass rush. Anyone who has played online consistently should agree with me. The offense of an online player for the past 3 years has been this:

1. Run a bunch of toss plays.
2. Scramble around a lot with the QB.
3. Sit in the pocket and wait for someone to run their route and come back as the DB does not stick with the WR once they break off the route and come back to the ball.
4. Run a bunch of flares, slants, drags, posts, and that garbage.

It's a never ending cycle. 90% of this happens because they do not have to respect the pass rush because it doesn't exist. I remember looking at my stats last year and my sacks against being something like .25 a game. That's unbelievable. That means I was getting sacked once every FOUR games.

Like I said, I'd much rather have a balance pass rush, but if I had to choose between the two, it's a no brainer for me. With an overpowered/normal pass rush, I can completely disrupt the offense of the douches who run that kind of offense. Whenever I don't have a pass rush, I can't do a thing except let them sit back and pick me apart.

psusnoop
05-07-2011, 06:56 PM
Very nice Oneback.

Jayrah
05-08-2011, 03:24 AM
I have to disagree. Two wrongs don't make a right. I don't want a nonexistent pass rush, and I don't want an overpowered/unrealistic pass rush. I want football. Simple as that.

It's not 2 wrongs in my opinion. It's an intermediate way of addressing the issue. Again, the guys who have played 100 hrs or so of time each on the game thought the DL was overpowered, and never once saw the animation.

Jayrah
05-08-2011, 05:32 AM
My 2 points to this video are:
1) The in game animation happens as is In Real Life.
2) As you can see, the difference between the in game animation and a successful bull rush the way you guys want it is very little in terms of time. Therefore, it IS NOT UNREALISTIC in the time factor, nor would it be overpowered. It could be too much of one animation, but the idea is the same: A better pass rush.

This is the in game bull rush animation In Real Life: 1:53 RE

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/8ii1TVs8Fr0" allowfullscreen="" width="480" frameborder="0" height="390"></iframe>

@ 6:35 - Another Bull Rush that puts LT on his back like in game animation shows
@ 0:21 RE, 8:22 RE & 8:44 DT - This is what we are talking about wanting in a bull rush:
&
@ 5:32 LE - Speed Rush

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/DaPDKyVM1sU" allowfullscreen="" width="480" frameborder="0" height="390"></iframe>

Rudy
05-08-2011, 06:08 AM
It's not 2 wrongs in my opinion. It's an intermediate way of addressing the issue. Again, the guys who have played 100 hrs or so of time each on the game thought the DL was overpowered, and never once saw the animation.

Not seeing it and it not happening are two different things. When I'm passing I'm looking downfield. If I get sacked I get sacked. If I don't I throw the ball. Unless I go to the replay or see it on an auto-replay I'm unlikely to see it even if it was happening. These guys didn't even know the animation existed and didn't try to keep an eye out for it.

That said, the fact they didn't see it is a good thing but it is still a concern for me. There were too many tackles for loss last year and it is one reason the spread offence struggled more than a traditional offence. The fact they highlight another area likely to result in more tackles for loss is a scary thing.

When the community guys go soon I'd like them to watch the tackle for loss statistic and I really want to see them play with Oregon and against Oregon (cpu) to see how the spread works. I'd love to see Jeff take OSU into the Big House against Michigan and report back as to how often Denard scrambles out of a pro-set as well. One of the biggest concerns for people last year was how the mobile QB is in NCAA 12. They rarely scrambled last year and weren't effective running the spread-option. This HAS to be improved for NCAA 12.

Oneback
05-08-2011, 06:15 AM
The time difference between running over raggady ann and pushing a blocker into the quarterback is different, no explaination should need to be given here. I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that it happens, you found two examples in two games against a bad offensive line against two good defenses. If it only happens when there is a big mismatach (and even then not often) I am fine with that. However, if it only happens 50 times over an entire NCAA season when counting all teams maybe we should look at implementing the bull rush animation that happens more often as I described earlier.

JeffHCross
05-08-2011, 01:30 PM
Do you think there is still enough time to get an animation like this into the game?Not this late, no. If they don't already have it (I haven't asked, so I have no idea), there's no time to put in something like that. Animations aren't simple additions -- they require a lot of code checks and testing to ensure they work and trigger correctly.

JeffHCross
05-08-2011, 02:20 PM
Sort of a "play now" question I suppose but what is the button press needed to trigger a Bull Rush attempt if you are using a DL?Most likely, I would imagine it will be Right Stick Down. That's the "Power Rush" move in the current game, and it's similar to a Bull Rush, so I'd imagine that will be the trigger. Now, whether this animation triggers or something else does, I can't say for sure. It may be that this one only triggers under select circumstances. No idea yet.

If this animation happens (like in the video of the offensive lineman trying to pull the defender down as well but failing) and it's not called holding, I would be very pissed off.I want to say I did see a "oh ----, I better grab him" kind of animation, but I can't remember if I did or I'm just imagining it.

It's just funny to see people completely go ape shit over this.FWIW, I'm one of those ;)

This made me http://www.tigerdroppings.com/Images/Icons/Iconrotflmao.gif

Well played. http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Drinks/drinking-43.gif:: tip of the hat :: Thank you, thank you.

people got the wrong notion about this happening a lot because it was shown a couple times in video showcasing the animations. Bingo.

If I get sacked I get sacked. Unless I go to the replay or see it on an auto-replay I'm unlikely to see it even if it was happening. These guys didn't even know the animation existed and didn't try to keep an eye out for it.Yeah, but I did keep an eye out for everything. Outside of one User/User game that was played under "No watching replays!!!" rules (:D), I was checking replays any time I saw something that didn't make sense. And I was playing exclusively with defensive linemen and don't recall triggering this once. Trust me, if anyone saw this animation at the event, people would have been talking about it. The nature of the Community events has us often calling each other's attention to something we see. If this move had been seen, someone would have called attention to it. Steeler and I are playing with lineman 95%+ of the time, so if anybody would have noticed it, it would have been me or him.


When the community guys go soon I'd like them to watch the tackle for loss statistic and I really want to see them play with Oregon and against Oregon (cpu) to see how the spread works.There is one guy that played a lot with Oregon -- unfortunately he doesn't come around here to give his impressions.


I'd love to see Jeff take OSU into the Big House against Michigan and report back as to how often Denard scrambles out of a pro-set as well.I probably won't report on exactly that, but I am planning to run a lot of CPU vs CPU simulations on default AA and see about things like the pass rush, QB runs, spread running, etc.

Keontez
05-08-2011, 04:41 PM
The time difference between running over raggady ann and pushing a blocker into the quarterback is different, no explaination should need to be given here. I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that it happens, you found two examples in two games against a bad offensive line against two good defenses. If it only happens when there is a big mismatach (and even then not often) I am fine with that. However, if it only happens 50 times over an entire NCAA season when counting all teams maybe we should look at implementing the bull rush animation that happens more often as I described earlier.


Sometimes Oneback, I wish you were slower with your replys so I wouldnt have to make post that say quote what you say and say nothing but "This" lol

Oneback
05-08-2011, 07:40 PM
Sometimes Oneback, I wish you were slower with your replys so I wouldnt have to make post that say quote what you say and say nothing but "This" lol

I'll give you the next one. :)

Rudy
05-08-2011, 08:36 PM
Thanks Jeff.

Jayrah
05-09-2011, 01:42 AM
The time difference between running over raggady ann and pushing a blocker into the quarterback is different, no explaination should need to be given here. I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that it happens, you found two examples in two games against a bad offensive line against two good defenses. If it only happens when there is a big mismatach (and even then not often) I am fine with that. However, if it only happens 50 times over an entire NCAA season when counting all teams maybe we should look at implementing the bull rush animation that happens more often as I described earlier.

In the OSU WSU video. The WSU defensive line (not strong by any means last season) pushes the blocker back into the qb 4 or 5 times, and it is no slower. If you're talking about a collapsing pocket, then you're right, there's a slight time difference. But that's not what we're debating. We're debating the animation vs what we more often see in a power bull rush, which is a blocker that gets out-leveraged and driven into the lap of the qb. There is no difference in time. Neither of these will happen much against a good offensive line because you'll either have to get a free rusher or coverage has to be so good that the d-line can collapse the pocket. Maybe that's an issue, but the animation itself is no different imo in the time it would take to "bull rush" the o-lineman with leverage and drive him to the qb.

Pokes404
05-09-2011, 12:08 PM
My problem with this is that there's a big difference between a free rusher, and a guy who's still engaged. Yes, he may be dominating your guy and applying pressure, but if your blocker is still engaged, there are a lot of things you can do to try to buy yourself some extra time. You can side step and use his momentum against him, you can step up in the pocket (depending what angle he's coming at), or you can take a deeper drop and try to find someone to dump it to. As long as there's a body on him, you still have a chance to make a play with the QB. The problem with a free rusher is that scrambling out of the pocket is your only real option, and if you don't have a scrambling QB, you're dead. I know people are going to say, "Well then, you should have a check down receiver." Yes, obviously that's the first thing I'm going to try to do, but you might need to give him a chance to get off a jam or get out of his break. This is when you need to buy yourself that extra 1/2 second or so by making the right move in the pocket. Again, this isn't really possible when you have a free rusher coming right at you. This dynamic happens in real life and I feel it should happen in the game.

I'm very eager to hear the reports back from the community day coming up. I hope that proper bull rushes have been put into the game but just weren't showcased by EA in the trailer. If, however, my fears that Successful Bull Rush = Flattened Blocker are present, I hope they have the time to tune the frequency properly so that these things happen very rarely.

Jayrah
05-09-2011, 03:46 PM
My problem with this is that there's a big difference between a free rusher, and a guy who's still engaged. Yes, he may be dominating your guy and applying pressure, but if your blocker is still engaged, there are a lot of things you can do to try to buy yourself some extra time. You can side step and use his momentum against him, you can step up in the pocket (depending what angle he's coming at), or you can take a deeper drop and try to find someone to dump it to. As long as there's a body on him, you still have a chance to make a play with the QB. The problem with a free rusher is that scrambling out of the pocket is your only real option, and if you don't have a scrambling QB, you're dead. I know people are going to say, "Well then, you should have a check down receiver." Yes, obviously that's the first thing I'm going to try to do, but you might need to give him a chance to get off a jam or get out of his break. This is when you need to buy yourself that extra 1/2 second or so by making the right move in the pocket. Again, this isn't really possible when you have a free rusher coming right at you. This dynamic happens in real life and I feel it should happen in the game.

I'm very eager to hear the reports back from the community day coming up. I hope that proper bull rushes have been put into the game but just weren't showcased by EA in the trailer. If, however, my fears that Successful Bull Rush = Flattened Blocker are present, I hope they have the time to tune the frequency properly so that these things happen very rarely.

I can agree wholeheartedly with that.

ram29jackson
07-13-2011, 02:57 PM
line play in this game is still very incomplete