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View Full Version : An idea for the ultimate Custom Playbook...



Dr Death
05-02-2011, 01:22 PM
There are potentially several different areas this thread can go in, so if one of the Mod's feels it necessary to move it, by all means do so. I have been perusing the 'Net looking for good football play creators and there are several that look really nice. Of course, some of them are extremely expensive. As in $200.00 or more.

However, an idea struck me that could absolutely revolutionize NCAA Custom Playbooks. If this feature jacked the price up for NCAA 13, to say, $69.99, I would be perfectly fine w/ it. Here's the idea...

EA provides a site that uses the Play Editor tool. Offense, Defense, ST's... everything one could want. Then we use the site, via the Web like Team Builder, build and name our own plays and then download them to the game once the game is released.

Of course, the software would have to be programmed to only allow legal plays... I am not wanting/hoping/trying to open a door for cheesers... but this would be a fantastic tool for all the people who want to truly have their own offense/defense.

If you thought Team Builder was a success... how huge do you think this would be? What would also be nice, and I have yet to find a site that has this feature, but what would be nice is if we could diagram a play and then choose a base defense to lay over the offensive play. So we could choose Cover 2 and see how our play would look/work against that coverage and if you want/need, at that point edit a receiver to have an Option route that would work against the Cover 2, or change the route{s} altogether. Then move onto Cover 3 and so on...

I haven't needed any plays to lay over the ones I have been working on, as I know what the defense will do and how to attack it, but there are a plethora of defenses in the game as well as new plays, some of which we haven't even seen yet.

Having this option - create a play, name it, see it in action against any and all defenses, would be an absolute football junkies dream come true. And I believe that if EA can host and handle all the teams in Team Builder, then a site dedicated to Custom Playbook Editor should be something they could handle as well.

One nice thing that I feel would be a must... once we download our playbook{s} to our console, they should be there until we delete them, that way, when/if the EA servers go down, we still have access to our playbooks.

Just think of that... create your plays... give them whatever name/terminology that you want, save them to a playbook that you name as well... Any other ideas on how something like this could work? I believe w/ so much ability w/ technology today, this should be the wave of the {hopefully very near} future.

souljahbill
05-02-2011, 02:02 PM
I wouldn't touch it. Way over my head.

gschwendt
05-02-2011, 02:05 PM
I would absolutely love something like that but it's a very polarizing subject. A lot say they wouldn't use it very much and if it were included, it would ruin online gameplay. So then comes the issue of whether you allow it to be used online or not. Then if you don't allow it online, is it truly worth the huge amount of time that it would take to implement it?

Dr Death
05-02-2011, 02:20 PM
I would absolutely love something like that but it's a very polarizing subject. A lot say they wouldn't use it very much and if it were included, it would ruin online gameplay. So then comes the issue of whether you allow it to be used online or not. Then if you don't allow it online, is it truly worth the huge amount of time that it would take to implement it?

This is where EA would need to make serious changes to the engine. So perhaps the next, next-gen... but a game that was as real as could be w/ absolutely no BS allowed would be nice. I still see the occasional play where the CPU will do something that's pure cheese... ala the QB running left and throwing back across the field to his right and hitting the WR right in stride. The CPU gives these guys some of their ideas.

So yeah, I understand the concern, but IF we get an engine that eliminates that crap, then this type of thing would be phenomenal.

And Souljahbill... it wouldn't be over your head. You simply align your offense on the field... I-Formation - Two TE Formation - 3-Wide - 4-Wide - 5-Wide etc... and then draw the plays. The few that I've been able to use on-line are super simple. You would get the hang of it quickly and then it would become addicting!

Here is one of the plays I created. I use 5-Wide and this play is *borrowed* from the Run & Shoot w/ the way I would run it. I am still learning this particular tool, but this would be against Cover 2. I also assign different lettering to my WR's than the traditional way. My way keeps it simple and alphabetical... in order. The only thing that should be different in this diagram is W - inside slot receiver on the left, should run more of a post since it's Cover 2. In effect, he would split the two safety's.

http://i52.tinypic.com/246qry8.jpg

souljahbill
05-02-2011, 02:36 PM
Creating random routes is easy but creating plays usually involves knowledge of certain concepts. If I want to make a running play, I gotta understand how blocking works. If I want to make a zone blitz, I gotta understand different coverages. Anyone can draw up plays in the sand but only coach nerds would be able to really get anything out of this feature.

Dr Death
05-02-2011, 02:45 PM
Creating random routes is easy but creating plays usually involves knowledge of certain concepts. If I want to make a running play, I gotta understand how blocking works. If I want to make a zone blitz, I gotta understand different coverages. Anyone can draw up plays in the sand but only coach nerds would be able to really get anything out of this feature.

The one I've been toying w/ allows line blocking assignments as well as defensive responsibilities. I kept them out of the one above to keep it clean. But the concept would be the same for the run game... you would assign who each lineman blocks, and whether it's in or out... where the hole you want to be... and then of course you'd have the ability to audible if you called a certain play and the defense was positioned in a way that would blow that play up.

I think more people would get into it and also develop a better understanding of the game. Would it require more thinking? Sure. But from reading the boards that I've been on, it seems this would be something a lot of people would love. And for those that don't want it, it would be just like Team Builder... it would be there, but you wouldn't have to use it if you didn't want to.

souljahbill
05-02-2011, 03:08 PM
I'm not trying to dissuade it from being a feature. If EA can get it in, they should go for it. I just think coaching nerds will be the only people ejaculating in their pants while most people will tinker around with it, make a few plays to see how it works, and pretty much leave it alone.

morsdraconis
05-02-2011, 03:18 PM
I'm not trying to dissuade it from being a feature. If EA can get it in, they should go for it. I just think coaching nerds will be the only people ejaculating in their pants while most people will tinker around with it, make a few plays to see how it works, and pretty much leave it alone.

I completely disagree.

I'm far from a "coach nerd", but the idea of having the ability to actually create plays would be HUGE. It, along with custom playbooks, would allow the offenses that are available now to be created correctly, with proper blocking assignments. It would allow formations to be fleshed out to give the ability to run a formation without the opponent knowing exactly what was coming (running plays to the opposite side of the formation that EA continues to lack for formations that need them). Imagine a flexbone offense with all the little wrinkles that Navy actually has in their offense?

Imagine the ability to bring back the old style offenses (some, of which, high schools still run because they're so effective). Bring back the Wing-T offense. The Fullhouse formation with all the little wrinkles that make it so tough to defend in real life. The possibilities would be endless with this type of setup available in the game.

It would be a huge endeavor for EA but man would it be great to have.

souljahbill
05-02-2011, 03:30 PM
I completely disagree.

I'm far from a "coach nerd", but the idea of having the ability to actually create plays would be HUGE. It, along with custom playbooks, would allow the offenses that are available now to be created correctly, with proper blocking assignments. It would allow formations to be fleshed out to give the ability to run a formation without the opponent knowing exactly what was coming (running plays to the opposite side of the formation that EA continues to lack for formations that need them). Imagine a flexbone offense with all the little wrinkles that Navy actually has in their offense?

Imagine the ability to bring back the old style offenses (some, of which, high schools still run because they're so effective). Bring back the Wing-T offense. The Fullhouse formation with all the little wrinkles that make it so tough to defend in real life. The possibilities would be endless with this type of setup available in the game.

It would be a huge endeavor for EA but man would it be great to have.

Do you understand how all those old offenses work? Do you know that if the end comes in, the pulling guard hits him while the fullback goes up field, and yada yada yada because that's "coach nerd" stuff. If you can draw up an entire playbook of plays that can account for different formations and situations, then that's "coach nerd" stuff. Now, if we go by forums dedicated to sports gaming to gauge popularity, it'll be the biggest edition in NCAA history but to the other people who has no idea that a cb should line up on the inside shoulder of a slot receiver or whatever, it won't make a bit of difference.

Like I said, I'm not trying to dissuade the feature from being added. I just don't think enough people understand the concepts utilized in creating a playbook for this feature to be a big mainstream feature and not just a big feature on forums dedicated to the game.

JeffHCross
05-06-2011, 10:47 PM
So yeah, I understand the concern, but IF we get an engine that eliminates that crap, then this type of thing would be phenomenal. Just like the fact that there will never be software without bugs, I don't think there will ever be a video game without a way to exploit it.

Keontez
05-08-2011, 10:55 PM
Dr. Death whats the name of the program that you're using? is it free? I've been looking for one but cant find one that works with my Mac.


Back on subject, I think this could be a possibly good feature. But I've taken a No Custom Plays in the game approach and Im still holding that stance until the AI is absolutely unbreakable.

baseballplyrmvp
05-09-2011, 09:21 AM
until the AI is absolutely unbreakable.

i dont think that will ever happen. until scientists can create a computer that can replicate a human mind in every topic, humans will always have the advantage over a machine.

as far as the original idea, i love it. i'd also like to know what program the doctor is using.

Dr Death
05-09-2011, 09:37 AM
Personally, I think some of you are under-estimating computers and what they're capable of. The real question is would EA, or any gaming company, invest the $$$ to get the computer where AI is realistic w/ out all the bullshit?

As for the site... here is the link: http://www.playmaker.com/play-editor

You can tell from the play above I kept things simple. After "creating" the play I copied it and went to Photoshop to add the name and the notes. You have the option of picking a certain defense or just placing the defenders where you want them. When you pick a certain defense, things can get a little busy... that's why I posted the clean photo above.

Here's a play against a particular defense {Cover 3} and the defensive players zone assignments are all laid out which, for some people, might be too much. Hence the clean version I originally posted.

This is a Shovel Pass out of a 5-Wide set w/ blocking assignments. You can do a lot w/ this stuff or, a little, depending on what look you want.

http://i52.tinypic.com/90rpxz.jpg

JeffHCross
05-09-2011, 09:28 PM
Personally, I think some of you are under-estimating computers and what they're capable of. The real question is would EA, or any gaming company, invest the $$$ to get the computer where AI is realistic w/ out all the bullshit?Actually, both of you are right and wrong in this. You don't need an unbreakable AI, but there is something more at play than just the investment to get to that point. Sports AI, especially Football AI, is thought of throughout the AI community as very difficult. To put it simply, think about every instruction that a coach gives a certain player in practice, and during a game. If he does X, you do Y. That's relatively straightforward and simple, honestly. But it's the sheer mass of information that becomes difficult. And making that calculation 60 times per second, for 21 (minus human) avatars is very taxing on a computer.

On the other end of the spectrum is whether or not the investment is worth it. We all know that we represent a very small segment of EA's audience, and the average football fan, as well as the average gamer, gives fuck all for how it "really works".

morsdraconis
05-09-2011, 09:38 PM
I still think you're selling short the ability of computers now. We're talking about something like Deep Blue was able to do back in 1997 in a simple server setup that looked like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/be/Deep_Blue.jpg/220px-Deep_Blue.jpg

That's 14 years ago. Technology between then and now has increased by a factor of 10 at the least. Deep Blue ran on two Intel Duo chips which are VERY far behind the times compared to now. I certainly think, with proper development, a true AI could be developed for strategy purposes that could continue to learn and adapt to various unorthodox things that players would do.

SmoothPancakes
05-09-2011, 10:12 PM
I certainly think, with proper development, a true AI could be developed for strategy purposes that could continue to learn and adapt to various unorthodox things that players would do.

This is my ultimate dream when it comes to sports games in the future. I want an AI that truly, actually learns from each and every game you play, what your tendencies are, what you do when, what you like and don't like, and pushes you each and every game. You like to run the HB off tackle 65% of the time on first down, it'll adapt to that. You tend to try and hit the slant or the post route more than any other on 3rd and long, it'll learn and adapt to that, forcing you to change your methods to beat it.

That is the kind of AI I hope we can get to in the future. Sure, have it be able to be turned on or off for those who don't want to deal with that, but I personally want an AI that learns my methods and builds a profile of sorts on me and builds it up and fills it out more and more with each and every game I play, making it react better and smarter to what I do and forcing me to do things differently than relying on the same old, same old.

I want a true chess match feeling each and every time I go up against the AI in a sports game. I want that chess match feeling where you're not only thinking about the next play, but you're also looking 3 plays/moves ahead and trying to decide what you want to do, do you run it this play, do you pass it, do you set up the deep pass, do you try and get it to 3rd and short or try to go for the big play and break it for a first down right away, etc.

baseballplyrmvp
05-09-2011, 10:25 PM
I still think you're selling short the ability of computers now. We're talking about something like Deep Blue was able to do back in 1997 in a simple server setup that looked like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/be/Deep_Blue.jpg/220px-Deep_Blue.jpg

That's 14 years ago. Technology between then and now has increased by a factor of 10 at the least. Deep Blue ran on two Intel Duo chips which are VERY far behind the times compared to now. I certainly think, with proper development, a true AI could be developed for strategy purposes that could continue to learn and adapt to various unorthodox things that players would do.i might be....but i dont think we'll ever see anything remotely close to deep blue's "thinking" being crammed on a dvd....blue ray maybe, but certainly not a dvd.

morsdraconis
05-09-2011, 11:36 PM
This is my ultimate dream when it comes to sports games in the future. I want an AI that truly, actually learns from each and every game you play, what your tendencies are, what you do when, what you like and don't like, and pushes you each and every game. You like to run the HB off tackle 65% of the time on first down, it'll adapt to that. You tend to try and hit the slant or the post route more than any other on 3rd and long, it'll learn and adapt to that, forcing you to change your methods to beat it.

That is the kind of AI I hope we can get to in the future. Sure, have it be able to be turned on or off for those who don't want to deal with that, but I personally want an AI that learns my methods and builds a profile of sorts on me and builds it up and fills it out more and more with each and every game I play, making it react better and smarter to what I do and forcing me to do things differently than relying on the same old, same old.

I want a true chess match feeling each and every time I go up against the AI in a sports game. I want that chess match feeling where you're not only thinking about the next play, but you're also looking 3 plays/moves ahead and trying to decide what you want to do, do you run it this play, do you pass it, do you set up the deep pass, do you try and get it to 3rd and short or try to go for the big play and break it for a first down right away, etc.

I wish I had knowledge to make it my life's work cause I would. An artificial intelligence of that magnitude would be gigantic. Even compared to something like Watson, I think it would be along the same type of achievement to have an AI that's actually that intelligent and strategically able to extrapolate out something as complex as football strategy would be pretty damn interesting.

JeffHCross
05-10-2011, 10:57 PM
Even compared to something like Watson, I think it would be along the same type of achievement to have an AI that's actually that intelligent and strategically able to extrapolate out something as complex as football strategy would be pretty damn interesting.If I ever get the motivation to go to graduate school, one idea I've had for a thesis would be to figure out how much of Saturday strategy a computer could predict.

morsdraconis
05-11-2011, 12:15 AM
If I ever get the motivation to go to graduate school, one idea I've had for a thesis would be to figure out how much of Saturday strategy a computer could predict.

That would definitely be the logical first step towards the more ultimate goal of an AI that is able to strategically determine what play to use in a given situation in 5-10 seconds as a playcaller must do in a live fire/video game situation.

In that, I would think it would require a ginormous amount of data collection that takes into account so many different factors, that it would take years of working to collect said data to even properly flesh out a database for a simple program to call information from. It would definitely be interesting though to get a handle on what an artificial intelligence would be capable of beyond that initial setup.

JeffHCross
05-11-2011, 12:20 AM
You and I agree on all points. It would be a total bitch and, in the end, might not work. But it's the best idea I've had for a thesis-worthy project. And, nicely, it could be varied in scope by the person responsible. Focusing on one coach, or generalizing the playcalling so you use vague terms like "Inside Run", would help to modify the possible complexity.

Koach Vonner
05-19-2011, 11:02 AM
Creating random routes is easy but creating plays usually involves knowledge of certain concepts. If I want to make a running play, I gotta understand how blocking works. If I want to make a zone blitz, I gotta understand different coverages. Anyone can draw up plays in the sand but only coach nerds would be able to really get anything out of this feature.

I coach for a living. That's what puts food on the table. I'm probably the furthest thing from a nerd if you ever meet in the real life. I played in High School and in College. Now I coach it at a great program. This feature would be great because then we really could game plan. I could also use my programs AUTHENTIC PLAYBOOK. Not some representation of it. You could also change it up week to week depending on what the defense is giving you based off film. LOL!!

souljahbill
05-19-2011, 11:19 AM
I coach for a living. That's what puts food on the table. I'm probably the furthest thing from a nerd if you ever meet in the real life. I played in High School and in College. Now I coach it at a great program. This feature would be great because then we really could game plan. I could also use my programs AUTHENTIC PLAYBOOK. Not some representation of it. You could also change it up week to week depending on what the defense is giving you based off film. LOL!!

You're taking nerd to be something negative. Nerd, in this context, just means somebody who really understands football concepts (which a coach obviously would fall under). Most people don't.


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