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View Full Version : Some Changes to the Quarterback in NCAA Football 11



gschwendt
05-14-2010, 02:28 PM
You can view the page at http://www.thegamingtailgate.com/forums/content.php?144-Some-Changes-to-the-Quarterback-in-NCAA-Football-11

Kwizzy
05-14-2010, 02:36 PM
NICE! Really like the defensive options! So now the obvios question... Thoughts from the CD guys? Did you get a chance to play with this stuff quite a bit?

gschwendt
05-14-2010, 02:40 PM
NICE! Really like the defensive options! So now the obvios question... Thoughts from the CD guys? Did you get a chance to play with this stuff quite a bit?
Unfortunately the gameplanning settings were bugged while we were down there for CD. We later discovered that they were flipped (set it to one, it changes to the other) but it was near the end of the week before we discovered that. Needless to say though, we didn't get to tinker that much with the gameplanning settings.

As for the QB throws out of sacks... they definitely seemed improved. No more automatic lame ducks.

Rudy
05-14-2010, 02:40 PM
I do like that a lot. Toning down the pick 6's and being able to change strategies on QB scrambling will probably be a big hit with the online crowd. Any word on whether they adopted the short/medium/long accuracy ratings? I'd love to see a QB release rating to differentiate between guys like Tebow who has a slow release vs. quicker passers.

texacotea
05-14-2010, 02:46 PM
all sounds good but what happens when you contain and the manually blitz with that DE? CD guys can you comment on how the defensive audibles worked out?

starter
05-14-2010, 02:50 PM
I like everything I'm hearing. The more options the better.

Solidice
05-14-2010, 02:53 PM
As for the QB throws out of sacks... they definitely seemed improved. No more automatic lame ducks.

that is good to hear, I think 75% of my Ints(probably exaggerating) were because of the ball floating in the opposite direction of my intended WR and the ball just happens to fall into a defenders hands.

gschwendt
05-14-2010, 02:53 PM
all sounds good but what happens when you contain and the manually blitz with that DE? I didn't test it but I can only imagine that since you're manually controlling that DE, it will ignore the contain assignment for the DE you're controlling but use contain on the opposite DE.

CD guys can you comment on how the defensive audibles worked out?Truth be told, I wasn't even aware that the Contain assignment was there. Not sure if they just didn't tell us, I just didn't hear it, or it wasn't ready at the time.

Either way though, I imagine it will be very handy this year. QBs are able to break the pocket easier than they have in past years... not necessarily in a bad way though. But I know playing RynoAid from Tradition Football, he was able to scramble more than I had expected him to. I definitely would have liked to have test out this contain feature had I known it was there.

steelerfan
05-14-2010, 03:22 PM
More good stuff from EA. It's been too easy to get 10 or more defensive TDs in a season. I'd like to think turnovers can be manageable and realistic in number without turning the INT sllder to 0, 5 or 10 and then just watching all the would-be-INTs dropped. This game has needed an infusion of simple incompletions, hopefully this will lend itself to that.

rhombic21
05-14-2010, 04:37 PM
So they got rid of rush out for a worthless contain assignment that I could already do relatively easily? Figures.

At least with the rush out there was a middle ground between "go stand in a completely unrealistic quasi-zone and don't rush the QB at all" and "get sucked in and give up the outside every time." Now they've basically eliminated that. Wonderful.

This is also going to mess up a ton of the blitzes that we've created, as now you basically have no way to make some of the defensive line adjustments.

cdj
05-14-2010, 04:37 PM
Like Tommy said, the Gameplanning stuff wasn't at 100% at the CE, but I did use Contain as well as Spy coverage quite a bit when facing a scrambling QB. Personally, I found them effective in slowing them down.

In a tourney game versus Tradition Football's rynoaid, I didn't use any contain, spy, etc. in the first half and he had great success running with the QB. In the second half, he was held relatively in check with the QB. He had a few good runs with his RB, but the QB was not as big of a factor. During that game, we had two of the gameplay devs watching and we kept a close eye on when defenders broke coverage to go after the QB and I think that's what Larry is referring to in his blog. The Gameplanning option sounds like it makes them break away even quicker to recognize scrambling QBs.

rhombic21
05-14-2010, 04:43 PM
QB contain has always been helpful in containing the QB if they actually break the pocket, but the problem is that if the QB sits in the pocket, you only have two defensive linemen who are rushing. The other two guys will just stand there and won't try to rush the QB at all unless he gets outside. So it results in the QB having an eternity to sit in the pocket with no pass rush at all.

Rush Out was an intermediate option between having no pass rush at all (contain) and no containment (normal). Now it looks like we won't even have that option. I am baffled as to why they think it is a good idea to do this. You could already hot route to the QB contain assignments on the old system, and if they wanted to add it to a quick hot route, then they should have used the face buttons rather than the joystick, like they did on last gen (when you could use Square and Circle to set the DEs to spy).

Rudy
05-14-2010, 06:41 PM
I don't understand Rhombic. It looks like they kept the ability to spread the DL. Did they remove the option to have your DL rush to the outside as well (slant out line call)? What did they remove?

rhombic21
05-14-2010, 06:53 PM
Yes, the removed the option to have the DL slant out and replaced it with a quick hot route to put both DEs in contain.

Deuce
05-14-2010, 07:08 PM
I know I'm stating the obvious here but it all comes down to implementation. I hope with all the work they've done with the O line and getting the blocking corrected that something as obvious as proper DE technique would be corrected as well. If the audible sends the DE's on an outside rush rather then running sideways for 5 yards and stopping it should be ok. I guess we'll know when the demo comes out. Hopefully this concern will get back to EA and they'll explain further.

Rudy
05-14-2010, 07:16 PM
Yes, the removed the option to have the DL slant out and replaced it with a quick hot route to put both DEs in contain.

I have to say I don't like the sound of that either although that may have improved the contain logic of the DL. Perhaps they take an outside rush and go after the QB but don't get deeper than the QB. That's what most DL should be doing when facing a scrambling QB. You don't want to get too far upfield and give him a rushing lane.

I agree with Deuce. They redid the blocking schemes in the running game so let's see how this plays out in the pass blocking area before getting too upset.

Rudy
05-14-2010, 07:26 PM
On a separate note, EA seems to have put the emphasis on containing scrambling QBs but is that head to head only? Can the CD guys comment on cpu quarterbacks and how often they will scramble? This is something that was done better on the PS2 and hasn't been done properly on the PS3. I'll always remember one of my first NCAA games ever. It was on NCAA '06 and I was playing against Reggie McNeal and he destroyed me. He threw for over 400 yards and torched me for over 100 yards rushing too. I couldn't believe how great that was. It never felt so good to lose a close game.

Coachdenz
05-14-2010, 08:06 PM
The top pic, it kinda looks like a Caveman standing there at MLB in a Gators uniform. (g)

cdj
05-15-2010, 12:43 AM
On a separate note, EA seems to have put the emphasis on containing scrambling QBs but is that head to head only? Can the CD guys comment on cpu quarterbacks and how often they will scramble? This is something that was done better on the PS2 and hasn't been done properly on the PS3. I'll always remember one of my first NCAA games ever. It was on NCAA '06 and I was playing against Reggie McNeal and he destroyed me. He threw for over 400 yards and torched me for over 100 yards rushing too. I couldn't believe how great that was. It never felt so good to lose a close game.

That was still being tuned at the CE. Some did take off, but the sliding logic was also in the midst of being tweaked (CPU player would slide unnecessarily, for example). It sounds like they aimed to try and make scrambling more pronounced by certain QBs though. Just my thought, but that seems like it could be tough to find a happy medium.

champ195797
05-15-2010, 08:19 PM
If this is over used by your oppent do you think the draw play would be a great counter

cdj
05-15-2010, 08:26 PM
If this is over used by your oppent do you think the draw play would be a great counter

I would think so. The blocking improvements have helped make the draw play a legit weapon as is, and if the DL is going out wide in contain, the draw should be very dangerous. I had success at the CE running it versus pass defenses like Dime.

Solidice
05-15-2010, 08:40 PM
I would think so. The blocking improvements have helped make the draw play a legit weapon as is, and if the DL is going out wide in contain, the draw should be very dangerous. I had success at the CE running it versus pass defenses like Dime.

I really hope so. I can remember in some OD games where I played with TTU and my opponents would come out in a 3-2-6 dime and still stuff the run(no run comment or anything). the draw play was mostly worthless for me.

pbplayer178
05-15-2010, 10:23 PM
In 09 and in 10 I have noticed the draw was either boom or bust. I would either lose 2 or gain 20. The only time I used was against a person using the superman DE pass rush.

JeffHCross
05-15-2010, 11:18 PM
The Blocking AI blog, which is discussed over here (http://www.thegamingtailgate.com/forums/showthread.php?19-Real-Assignment-AI-in-NCAA-Football-11), left little doubt that the Draw would be much improved this year. The combination of improved AI blocking and Locomotion / Acceleration changes should give a real opportunity to draw plays on 3rd down.

Jayrah
05-16-2010, 05:17 AM
I am really excited about the additions with the qb. And yet again, some small defensive updates are going to make a BIG difference in how the game is played this year. I think in the past games really got up and down. This will be a more grind it out game. Still explosive, but not an arcade scoring festival like years past. Key defensive updates are the defenders coming up quicker, the qb contain, gang tackle, true ratings usage for explosive players (especially at the point of attack), and no suction blocking. An inadvertent update will actually tie right in to this qb throwing out of sacks. Because of the lowering in turnovers that this will create, the "other" defense will get to see the field as more 3 and outs/punts will occur. Last year if you picked it, you had a great chance of a runback. This year more incompletions will mean more possessions on both sides of the ball. This is just overall a great decision to work on that.

CD guys I do have a question on turnovers. When the gang tackles were talked about, someone mentioned fumbles were happening in more realistic spots. With the new trajectories and less accurate passes, in the past you have said there are more "misses" by less accurate qbs. From what you saw, were the int's happening in more realistic spots? Like say, obviously there aren't any or as many instant straight duds to the waiting DL, but did the qb ever throw over the head or behind his wr, right into a pleasantly surprised defender, especially while being hit? Also did the qb ever just really miss everybody, or was it always basically close? Last year there weren't enough passes that missed everything, and also not enough that truly floated the wrong direction to be picked off, in a realistic manner. IMO of course :)

Rudy
05-16-2010, 05:29 AM
I'm going to have to check out all the new running plays. I never called a draw play in the past since they were so unsuccessful. I'm going to have to open my options up again and re-adjust to what the game can do now.

cdj
05-16-2010, 11:46 AM
CD guys I do have a question on turnovers. When the gang tackles were talked about, someone mentioned fumbles were happening in more realistic spots. With the new trajectories and less accurate passes, in the past you have said there are more "misses" by less accurate qbs. From what you saw, were the int's happening in more realistic spots? Like say, obviously there aren't any or as many instant straight duds to the waiting DL, but did the qb ever throw over the head or behind his wr, right into a pleasantly surprised defender, especially while being hit? Also did the qb ever just really miss everybody, or was it always basically close? Last year there weren't enough passes that missed everything, and also not enough that truly floated the wrong direction to be picked off, in a realistic manner. IMO of course :)

The 'ducks' and bad passes were still being tuned, but IIRC they improved between the first and last day of the event as they pushed through updated builds. I don't think I saw a single duck picked off or at least none by a d-lineman. My INTs were mainly User Picks, if I recall correctly. There were passes that just missed and I don't recall any defender warps and some were 'off' passes ranging from deep passes to passes in the flats to the RB. The "correct" % of these is always going to be up to individual opinion, however.

rhombic21
05-16-2010, 12:58 PM
Does the QB contain assignment work the same as it did last year. I.e. does the contain player essentially stand outside the tackle box and only attack the QB when he breaks the pocket? Will contain players rush the passer at all if the passer is in the pocket?

steelerfan
05-16-2010, 01:35 PM
The 'ducks' and bad passes were still being tuned, but IIRC they improved between the first and last day of the event as they pushed through updated builds. I don't think I saw a single duck picked off or at least none by a d-lineman. My INTs were mainly User Picks, if I recall correctly. There were passes that just missed and I don't recall any defender warps and some were 'off' passes ranging from deep passes to passes in the flats to the RB. The "correct" % of these is always going to be up to individual opinion, however.

This is music to my ears. If this plays out half as well as it sounds, I will be very pleased.

Jayrah
05-16-2010, 01:49 PM
Does the QB contain assignment work the same as it did last year. I.e. does the contain player essentially stand outside the tackle box and only attack the QB when he breaks the pocket? Will contain players rush the passer at all if the passer is in the pocket?

And more directly, have you guys ever got an explanation on DE's standing and waiting? My thought over on Utopia was that it is a matter of philosophy, where the DE's are supposed to engage and hold the edge, but not really rush up the field too far and allow the qb up in the pocket. But they couldn't come up with a hand fighting, upright animation to accomplish this without the DE just getting buried, so they just left him alone to sit and wait, that way he could at least be an extra defender on the edge.

Jayrah
05-16-2010, 02:19 PM
This is music to my ears. If this plays out half as well as it sounds, I will be very pleased.

Yes totally agree. :cool:

Another thought up for discussion: I really wish Larry would have expanded on prototypes in the game, and how they fixed/tuned them to act like their prototype would. He left us hangin in the wind on that. But anyway, now that there are a few (it seems) redefined prototypical qb styles, how will the cpu: A) Recruit to their system B) Use players that don't "fit" in their system via formation subs (speaking of which, CD guys, any idea whether the cpu utilized form subs while you were there?) C) play towards the system that they are in as a player?

Will a dual threat qb be utilized in a pro style offense? Will the cpu qb go ahead and attack due to their prototype ratings or will they simply do what the system asks of them? Will it be a mix (hopefully)? Also holds true for a transfer qb, will he go to a system that fits him if he finds he's in a bad system for him or won't play, or will he just go anywhere, because he will play the way he plays and the style of offense is inconsequential?

Also, as a true drop back qb will have serious trouble in a mobile offensive system, I'm hoping that qbs are labeled this year with what style(s) they would fit into, or that different offensive style teams have requirements on certain ratings, so that teams that don't incorporate these players in their recruiting wars when they don't fit. Even if a player has that team as a top school.

Rudy
05-16-2010, 06:10 PM
I echo Jayrah's concern above. Just look at Florida. They will have a really big change this year going from Tebow to Brantley who should not be running very much. I hope the cpu play calling adjusts depending on the QB's abilities (if a starter goes down and a slow footed backup comes in, they should run the option less).

BlindRedBaron
05-16-2010, 07:58 PM
While I do worry that the "contain" will be so obvious the QB will just sit in the pocket with all the time in the world, I think this is a great addition.

Contrary to Rhombic's concern about them removing "rush out", I'm quite pleased this is being removed. This is perhaps the most over-used and abused feature in NCAA 10. Having less than a second to release the ball because your opponent is cheesing the entire game "rushing out" with fast defensive ends was ridiculous.

I think this addition/removal will do great things for the game. Whether it will need to be tuned the year after or in a patch is yet to be seen, but I can't wait for the demo in June.

rhombic21
05-16-2010, 09:05 PM
Rush out isn't why you had a second to pass. It was jump the snap, and it actually happens when they jump the snap and are in contain, not rush out. Unless you're talking about manually controlling a defensive lineman, and in that case the defensive line hot routes don't matter at all.

BlindRedBaron
05-16-2010, 11:07 PM
Rush out isn't why you had a second to pass. It was jump the snap, and it actually happens when they jump the snap and are in contain, not rush out. Unless you're talking about manually controlling a defensive lineman, and in that case the defensive line hot routes don't matter at all.

Perhaps. I think it might have been a combination of all three, with the two factors you mentioned definitely being a factor. I just know that there are players online who do it every single play (along with controlling a lineman) and it is unrealistically effective at getting to the QB while he's in the pocket.

I understand its situational, strategic importance and I may indeed miss having it, but I guess I feel as though EA understands the ramifications of removing this defensive hot route. I'm assuming that pass rushing will still be effective and everything will be balanced. While this assumption may be misplaced if we look at years past, from everything I've seen thus far, I feel as though this will be a completely different game with improvements on no level we've seen thus far on the generation of systems.

Call me an optimist, but regardless, we'll all have to wait and see until the demo, and better yet, the game come out. :)

rhombic21
05-16-2010, 11:18 PM
I'm not really sure where you're coming with to assume that rush out is even a part of the problem. It's not overly effective except for jumping the snap, and if they're manually controlling a defensive linemen, then the problems you're experiencing are almost surely not related to their defensive line audibles anyways.

What we're going to end up with is a situation where you essentially have to choose between giving the QB all day to throw versus not having any containment, unless you decide to bring a massive blitz.

JBHuskers
05-17-2010, 12:03 AM
The 'ducks' and bad passes were still being tuned, but IIRC they improved between the first and last day of the event as they pushed through updated builds. I don't think I saw a single duck picked off or at least none by a d-lineman. My INTs were mainly User Picks, if I recall correctly. There were passes that just missed and I don't recall any defender warps and some were 'off' passes ranging from deep passes to passes in the flats to the RB. The "correct" % of these is always going to be up to individual opinion, however.

Trying to catch up after being gone for the fight, the ducks were more than just the simple flop that they would do within five feet of the QB (even though there were a few of those). There were some passes that actually made it into the secondary that were quackers, and you had to have that "oh crap" moment while the ball is in the air the entire time.

I want to think I saw a DL get a pick, but they may have been in a quarters coverage when they did. Nothing weird like an insta-pick from passing under pressure.

Jayrah
05-17-2010, 02:38 AM
I'm not really sure where you're coming with to assume that rush out is even a part of the problem. It's not overly effective except for jumping the snap, and if they're manually controlling a defensive linemen, then the problems you're experiencing are almost surely not related to their defensive line audibles anyways.

What we're going to end up with is a situation where you essentially have to choose between giving the QB all day to throw versus not having any containment, unless you decide to bring a massive blitz.

I finally see what you're talking about. And, yeah if that contain isn't fixed that could become a serious issue for pressure purposes. However now with the more defined O-Guard movements, maybe spreading the line or bringing occasional OLB or CB blitzes will give you an opportunity to keep the ends wide, and not have to use contain all the time. Also I contend that the addition of 'aggressive' gameplanning for the qb contain, and faster recognition in general, will help if you need extra support on the edge. They did quite a few little things to adapt to the issue here. I don't think it'll be as big a problem as you think, but like I said, it could become one.

AustinWolv
05-17-2010, 07:27 AM
Plus also let's remember that your ends might not need to be set to contain all the time, since they supposedly fixed the LB and DB awareness to come up and fill once the QB took off to run..........just saying there might be multiple pieces, not just a single position adjustment, that play here.

rhombic21
05-17-2010, 10:08 AM
My point though is that they have essentially removed this out rush feature for no good reason. We could ALREADY use the contain assignments, and realistically, they could have very easily designed a system that both kept the rush out assignment and simultaneously made it easier to set DEs to contain. For example, if they moved it to the face buttons, so that square set the left DE to contain and circle set the right DE to contain (once you brought up the DL assignment options), then it would have achieved both goals without any loss of functionality.

Also, the stuff with zones and spies being more reactive to QB scrambles is untested, and unless there have been some serious attempts to tweak the effects of low QB accuracy, then they could potentially just cause new problems because the QB scrambles, somebody comes up to stop him, and then a zone is left wide open. Further, if you're in a man coverage defense, like Cover 2 Man, then there aren't even any players in zone or spy to be of assistance.

texacotea
05-17-2010, 10:38 AM
My point though is that they have essentially removed this out rush feature for no good reason. We could ALREADY use the contain assignments, and realistically, they could have very easily designed a system that both kept the rush out assignment and simultaneously made it easier to set DEs to contain. For example, if they moved it to the face buttons, so that square set the left DE to contain and circle set the right DE to contain (once you brought up the DL assignment options), then it would have achieved both goals without any loss of functionality.

Also, the stuff with zones and spies being more reactive to QB scrambles is untested, and unless there have been some serious attempts to tweak the effects of low QB accuracy, then they could potentially just cause new problems because the QB scrambles, somebody comes up to stop him, and then a zone is left wide open. Further, if you're in a man coverage defense, like Cover 2 Man, then there aren't even any players in zone or spy to be of assistance.

This I think would be the best bet, I find my self fumbling with the controls trying to figure out what does what before the snap usually as far as Dline adjustments.

Also why not have the QBs acc rating drop when they start scrambling? This would make more sense IMO, you see more balls overthrown of thrown into the ground when someone is flushed out. Now I know there is the QBs who can throw just as good on the run as the can standing in the pocket. But somehow incoporate that into the ratings this way when a QB who is not custom to scrambling throw the ball worse when they are scrambling.

AustinWolv
05-17-2010, 10:42 AM
We could ALREADY use the contain assignments, and realistically, they could have very easily designed a system that both kept the rush out assignment and simultaneously made it easier to set DEs to contain.
Yeah, don't disagree with that at all.

Of course it is untested. However, it was discussed. Didn't say it was fixed, but they went into some detail on how individual ratings, individual positions, individual zone/man responsibilities.....how those would play into it, so it means they at least LOOKED at it compared to years past where a QB would clearly just take off with the LOS at the 5 yard line and yet the LB is just dropping into his zone 1/2-way deep into the endzone.


I'm going to have to check out all the new running plays. I never called a draw play in the past since they were so unsuccessful. I'm going to have to open my options up again and re-adjust to what the game can do now.
Agreed, those plays were a waste of screen space previously.

Rudy
05-17-2010, 10:46 AM
Also why not have the QBs acc rating drop when they start scrambling? This would make more sense IMO, you see more balls overthrown of thrown into the ground when someone is flushed out. Now I know there is the QBs who can throw just as good on the run as the can standing in the pocket. But somehow incoporate that into the ratings this way when a QB who is not custom to scrambling throw the ball worse when they are scrambling.

I guess this depends on whether the extra QB ratings from Madden 10 found their way in NCAA 11. I'd love to see ratings for throwing on the run, deep ball, play action, etc. It would also be cool if they had different throwing animations (over the top, 3/4, slow, fast).